Question for Atheists

[Mike_D202]

and yet, I spell better than you.
plus English is my second language.

good try though, good try!

Well, you got me there. I dont study our language like you do, I just speak it. I'm too lazy to add apostraphies and proper usage of them.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

Well, you got me there. I dont study our language like you do, I just speak it. I'm too lazy to add apostraphies and proper usage of them.

*apostrophes

 

[Kritish]

Wrong.
I was happily into it. As I've said, there was a period where I was young and just believing it because it's how I was raised, but in my early 20's I was so honestly into it and such a gung-ho 100% believer that I moved out of my fiance's apartment to "avoid the appearance of evil" and told her we couldn't have sex anymore until we got married.
I even stopped drawing because of the commandment against creating an image of anything on the Earth, in the Sky or in the Sea.

Hardest thing I'd ever done but I felt I had to for my relationship with Jesus and I "knew" he would give me the strength and I prayed all the time.
Jesus, who, turns out, doesn't exist.

Jesus robbed me of a lot of good sex via my own fear and gulibility.

Wilhelm used to be Fed Phelps.

 

[Mike_D202]

*apostrophes

 

[SentinelMind]

ermmm, no.
sorry, you implied to know the motivations of a lot of atheists, do you understand that?
how can you even begin to claim that since atheism is not an established religion with a given set of rules, that alone makes your claim even harder to believe and even more arrogant than say someone saying

"I know that christians tend to..." do you understand why?

So you're saying you can question the thinking and rational of Christians, but not atheists. I can't docement, study, or read about the rational for people leaving organized religion and find trends and categorize them? You can only do those who join or grew up under religion, but not those who leave a religion?

morality is a creation OF humanity, because it only applies to humans, you don't see animals running around with fig leaves on their privates do you?
there was a time when nakedness was deemed "immoral" by mainstream society. the rest of your post is gibberish, sorry, don't try to sound complex when you don't fully grasp the idea you're trying to convey, because you risj sounding like you don't know what you're talking about.


Animals aren't capable of higher-level thinking. Those capable of higher-level thinking understand their inner nature, desires, and urges and must find a logical way to curtail them for survival. For instance, the concept of "nakedness" being immoral seems silly, but its based on the understanding that if humans walked around naked, ...we'd be distracted a whole lot and might be tempted to behave aggressively. Clothing helps curtail our inner urges. If you have a question or think I'm not being clear, could you try asking me or even challenging me to clarify it instead of dismissing a misunderstanding of my post as "trying to sound complex."

LOL, you just described human behavior independent of religious creed.
EVERYONE does that.
it has nothing to do with belief in a higher power, because even those that do "admit they have a selfish side, but tend to underplay it. As time progresses, they associate their causes and philosophical viewpoints with ego and rationalize their behavior whenever it becomes in conflict with others" I mean DUH! do you think that when the christians and catholics forced their religious beliefs upon the indigenous people of the Americas they didn't think they were doing the right thing?
Do you honestly think that a suicide Bomber thinks he is wrong and that this whole Allah thing is stupid?
do you think that every time that fringe groups protest a gay march or funeral with a sign that says "God Hates ****" they do so because they have a hidden streak of atheism in them?

please.




the concept of empathy is older than the Christian religion and has nothing to do with a higher power and everything to do with humanity.
and was born out of rational thought.

so

nope, sorry.

As I said before, I'm not a Christian, NEVER claimed Christianity or any organized religion created concepts of love, empathy, etc..... anywhere in this thread.

Let me ask you something, did you claim you're not an atheist in this thread. Do you believe that there exists a God that acknowlegdes 'human' morality? Is indifferent to human morality? Acknowledge concepts such as compassion and love? Or do you believe that God is indifferent to these concepts? This is an genuine question, not trying to engage in an attack.

and you'd do well to do so.

...

 

[Mr Sparkle]

So you're saying you can question the thinking and rational of Christians, but not atheists. I can't docement, study, or read about the rational for people leaving organized religion and find trends and categorize them? You can only do those who join or grew up under religion, but not those who leave a religion?

no, I'm not saying that at all.
and point of fact, what I am saying is that you haven't.
Because someone that would do all this would be meticulous to a fault and probably wouldn't misspell "document".
therefore, any claims to knowledge are iffy at best.

Animals aren't capable of higher-level thinking. Those capable of higher-level thinking understand their inner nature, desires, and urges and must find a logical way to curtail them for survival. For instance, the concept of "nakedness" being immoral seems silly, but its based on the understanding that if humans walked around naked, ...we'd be distracted a whole lot and might be tempted to behave aggressively. Clothing helps curtail our inner urges. If you have a question or think I'm not being clear, could you try asking me or even challenging me to clarify it instead of dismissing a misunderstanding of my post as "trying to sound complex."

Just because I believe in a concept of morality independent of humanity

morality is a creation OF humanity

aren't you, kind of agreeing with me and disagreeing with yourself?

As I said before, I'm not a Christian, NEVER claimed Christianity or any organized religion created concepts of love, empathy, etc..... anywhere in this thread.

nor have I claimed you to be a Christian anywhere in this thread.
you simply removed the capacity for conceiving "morality" and certain values, from the human mind.
I didn't like that, because it limits our capacity for development.

Let me ask you something, did you claim you're not an atheist in this thread. Do you believe that there exists a God that acknowlegdes 'human' morality? Is indifferent to human morality? Acknowledge concepts such as compassion and love? Or do you believe that God is indifferent to these concepts? This is an genuine question, not trying to engage in an attack.

I'm an agnostic.
personally however, I doubt that an omnipotent being that's eternal would bother with such weak concepts ( to him/her/it I mean) we can't even fathom the motives that move such a being.
if however, he was familiar with this concepts one would be left to wonder why he would let things continue as they have.
this is all a personal take.
there's the other possibility, that we are all connected, to everything, and this bickering about which secret club has the key to the pearly gates is a waste of time.

 

[Superhobo]

Bump

 

[Angry Sentinel]

LOL, I see Mr. Sparkle is still up to his favorite 'eating of the minds' attack on all who still believe in the christian 'fairy tales'.

It's funny, I have figured out where most of the regulars around here are coming from except for you. What's your story Sparkle? Did mommy whoop you with the bible? Did God fail to show up and save your favorite firetruck from the neighborhood bully? Come-on, tell us, most of these guys have told you where they're coming from. Give us the dish...

*reclines in big analytical chair, peers over at sparkle*

 

[Superhobo]

...you're ugly.

 

[Hyper Venom]

I am not a closed minded Christian, but I think what would make some atheists change their minds would be if people who claim to be Christian actually acted like it. If a Christian gets up and says "You're a sinner and you're going to Hell," what incentive is there for anyone to change? Like most people, I don't respond well to threats. What gets my attention is people out there working with the homeless and the needy and those folks who give up things so that the less fortunate can do better. We need to lead by example, not by shouting and pointing fingers. I think that's what Christ wants us to do, not stand on a corner of arrogant self righteousness, condemning whoever walks by that we don't like. That's what I think.

Very well put.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

LOL, I see Mr. Sparkle is still up to his favorite 'eating of the minds' attack on all who still believe in the christian 'fairy tales'.

It's funny, I have figured out where most of the regulars around here are coming from except for you. What's your story Sparkle? Did mommy whoop you with the bible? Did God fail to show up and save your favorite firetruck from the neighborhood bully? Come-on, tell us, most of these guys have told you where they're coming from. Give us the dish...

*reclines in big analytical chair, peers over at sparkle*

"analytical chair" LMAO, you're a simpleton.
but here's the story:

I think.
I'm a fan of rational thought.
plus, I'm smarter than you.
and by that I mean smarter than YOU personally "Angry Sentinel".
there it is, simple enough for even YOU to understand.

 

[Angry Sentinel]

"analytical chair" LMAO, you're a simpleton.
but here's the story:

I think.
I'm a fan of rational thought.
plus, I'm smarter than you.
and by that I mean smarter than YOU personally "Angry Sentinel".
there it is, simple enough for even YOU to understand.

Nah, I'm going to need you to S-P-E-L-L it out for me a little more.

*picks boogers, eats them*

 

[Kritish]

Let’s just give the theists what they want, yes we eat babies, preferable as we host coke riddled blood orgies. Happy now?

 

[Superhobo]

They fry up well in butter.

 

[S_H_F_4839]

I am not a closed minded Christian, but I think what would make some atheists change their minds would be if people who claim to be Christian actually acted like it. If a Christian gets up and says "You're a sinner and you're going to Hell," what incentive is there for anyone to change? Like most people, I don't respond well to threats. What gets my attention is people out there working with the homeless and the needy and those folks who give up things so that the less fortunate can do better. We need to lead by example, not by shouting and pointing fingers. I think that's what Christ wants us to do, not stand on a corner of arrogant self righteousness, condemning whoever walks by that we don't like. That's what I think.

I agree with this, thats what I was talking about one of the reasons I stopped going to church, it sickened me, the way they acted, we are safe because we are in here, that is entirely the wrong outlook, I think if Christ was to return and he looked at the modern day people who call themselves christians, he would be very dissappointed.

 

[Symbiote Hulk]

- Don't have any other gods before God: Didn't break it, but can you have other gods after God?

- Do not make for yourself any idolatrous image: I often forget about God, so I guess I'm guilty.

- Do not take the Lord's name in vain: Broke it

- Observe the Sabbath day and keep it holy: Broke it

- Honor your father and mother: Broke it

- Do not commit murder: I killed bugs and birds....DId I break it?

- Do not commit adultery: I checked out alot of hot girls so broke it

- Do not steal: I stole 2 peanuts from my local Grocery Store...broke it

- Do not testify falsely against your neighbor: Broke it

- Do not covet your neighbor's house, wife, servant, cattle, or anything else that belongs to them: Broke it



Crap!!!

 

[Symbiote Hulk]

I don't think that because a guy wants to **** Carmen Electra he is deserving of an eternity of pain and torture, seriously are you some sort of freak?
are you saying that because a widow has to work on Saturdays she is deserving of hell?

deserving?

do you know what you're saying??????


OH
MY
GOD!!!!

Agreed, even though I'm catholic...mmmnot sure bout you...

 

[Mike_D202]

Let’s just give the theists what they want, yes we eat babies, preferable as we host coke riddled blood orgies. Happy now?

Invite me

 

[Superhobo]

Thought this was relevant.

http://www.400monkeys.com/God/?

 

[Ring Deacon]

to get back on topic. yes it is perfectly fine for an atheist to take part in all holidays (religous or not). But You are still not really ceberating the REAL holiday. That is the point I am tring to make. You can have your X-Mas but without Christ you can't have Christmas. You can have you celebration of spring with egg hunts, but without Christ it just isn't Easter.

Get mad at me all you want. I know what you all are saying but you don't seem to understand me. I am not being closed minded in the least. I am saying that although you may think you are celebrating the holiday, you are not celebrating the reason it started. If Jesus was never born would we have Christmas today? Or if no one would have followed him and his teachings would we have Christmas? How about if he never rose from the dead, would there be an Easter? Do you see my point? I think somewhere deep down you want to believe in him and follow him. It is foolish pride that stops you.

 

[Superhobo]

Yes, we'd still have this same, basic holiday. It wouldn't be called Christmas, or have the backstory about Christ, but the good will would be there. I hate to tell you this, but the Christian backstory essentially overwrote the history of the holiday that was already there, a pagan holiday, to mark Winter Solstice, I think.
It was a holiday of general good will, already. pagans weren't monsters, ya know.

 

[Superhobo]

to get back on topic. yes it is perfectly fine for an atheist to take part in all holidays (religous or not). But You are still not really ceberating the REAL holiday. That is the point I am tring to make. You can have your X-Mas but without Christ you can't have Christmas. You can have you celebration of spring with egg hunts, but without Christ it just isn't Easter.

Get mad at me all you want. I know what you all are saying but you don't seem to understand me. I am not being closed minded in the least. I am saying that although you may think you are celebrating the holiday, you are not celebrating the reason it started. If Jesus was never born would we have Christmas today? Or if no one would have followed him and his teachings would we have Christmas? How about if he never rose from the dead, would there be an Easter? Do you see my point? I think somewhere deep down you want to believe in him and follow him. It is foolish pride that stops you.

Wow.

That's some undeniably pretentious thinking there, sparky.
You sure about that?

 

[Mr Sparkle]

I think somewhere deep down you want to believe in him and follow him. It is foolish pride that stops you.

No, I just like turkey dinners and Easter eggs.

sorry you're monumentally wrong. but I guess since some people in the US celebrate 5 de Mayo deep down the want to be Mexican.

 

[Kritish]

I think somewhere deep down you want to believe in him and follow him. It is foolish pride that stops you.

Whatever helps you sleep at night kiddo, but no, I don’t believe in god and have no desire to.

 

[Mike_D202]

Yes, we'd still have this same, basic holiday. It wouldn't be called Christmas, or have the backstory about Christ, but the good will would be there. I hate to tell you this, but the Christian backstory essentially overwrote the history of the holiday that was already there, a pagan holiday, to mark Winter Solstice, I think.
It was a holiday of general good will, already. pagans weren't monsters, ya know.

History

Pre-Christian winter festivals

Main article: List of winter festivals
A winter festival was traditionally the most popular festival of the year in many cultures. Reasons included less agricultural work needing to be done during the winter, as well as people expecting longer days and shorter nights after the winter solstice in the Northern Hemisphere.[9] In part, the Christmas celebration was created by the early Church in order to entice pagan Romans to convert to Christianity without losing their own winter celebrations[10][11]. Most of the most important gods in the religions of Ishtar and Mithra had their birthdays on December 25. Various Christmas traditions are considered to have been syncretised from winter festivals including the following:


Saturnalia

Alleged representation of Christ in the form of the sun-god Helios or Sol Invictus riding in his chariot. Third century mosaic of the Vatican grottoes under St. Peter's Basilica, on the ceiling of the tomb of the Julii.Main article: Saturnalia
In Roman times, the best-known winter festival was Saturnalia, which was popular throughout Italy. Saturnalia was a time of general relaxation, feasting, merry-making, and a cessation of formal rules. It included the making and giving of small presents (Saturnalia et Sigillaricia), including small dolls for children and candles for adults.[12] During Saturnalia, business was postponed and even slaves feasted. There was drinking, gambling, and singing, and even public nudity. It was the "best of days," according to the poet Catullus.[13] Saturnalia honored the god Saturn and began on December 17. The festival gradually lengthened until the late Republican period, when it was seven days (December 17-24). In imperial times, Saturnalia was shortened to five days.[14]


Natalis Solis Invicti

Main article: Sol Invictus
The Romans held a festival on December 25 called Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, "the birthday of the unconquered sun." The use of the title Sol Invictus allowed several solar deities to be worshipped collectively, including Elah-Gabal, a Syrian sun god; Sol, the god of Emperor Aurelian (AD 270-274); and Mithras, a soldiers' god of Persian origin.[15] Emperor Elagabalus (218-222) introduced the festival, and it reached the height of its popularity under Aurelian, who promoted it as an empire-wide holiday.[16]

December 25 was also considered to be the date of the winter solstice, which the Romans called bruma.[12] It was therefore the day the Sun proved itself to be "unconquered" despite the shortening of daylight hours. (When Julius Caesar introduced the Julian Calendar in 45 BC, December 25 was approximately the date of the solstice. In modern times, the solstice falls on December 21 or 22.) The Sol Invictus festival has a "strong claim on the responsibility" for the date of Christmas, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia.[2] Several early Christian writers connected the rebirth of the sun to the birth of Jesus.[17] "O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born . . . Christ should be born," Cyprian wrote.[2]


Yule

Main article: Yule
Pagan Scandinavia celebrated a winter festival called Yule, held in the late December to early January period. Yule logs were lit to honor Thor, the god of thunder, with the belief that each spark from the fire represented a new pig or calf that would be born during the coming year. Feasting would continue until the log burned out, which could take as many as twelve days.[18] In pagan Germania (not to be confused with Germany), the equivalent holiday was the mid-winter night which was followed by 12 "wild nights", filled with eating, drinking and partying.[19] As Northern Europe was the last part to Christianize, its pagan celebrations had a major influence on Christmas. Scandinavians still call Christmas Jul. In English, the Germanic word Yule is synonymous with Christmas,[20] a usage first recorded in 900.


Origin of Christian festival

Origen, a father of the Christian church, argued against the celebration of birthdays, including the birth of Christ.It is unknown exactly when or why December 25 became associated with Jesus' birth. The New Testament does not give a specific date.[17] Sextus Julius Africanus popularized the idea that Jesus was born on December 25 in his Chronographiai, a reference book for Christians written in AD 221.[17] This date is nine months after the traditional date of the Incarnation (March 25), now celebrated as the Feast of the Annunciation.[21] March 25 was also considered to be the date of the vernal equinox and therefore the creation of Adam.[21] Early Christians believed March 25 was also the date Jesus was crucified.[21] The Christian idea that Jesus was conceived on the same date that he died on the cross is consistent with a Jewish belief that a prophet lived an integral number of years.[21]

The identification of the birthdate of Jesus did not at first inspire feasting or celebration. Tertullian does not mention it as a major feast day in the Church of Roman Africa. In 245, the theologian Origen denounced the idea of celebrating Jesus' birthday "as if he were a king pharaoh." He contended that only sinners, not saints, celebrated their birthdays.[citation needed]

The earliest reference to the celebration of Christmas is in the Calendar of Filocalus, an illuminated manuscript compiled in Rome in 354.[2][22] In the east, meanwhile, Christians celebrated the birth of Jesus as part of Epiphany (January 6), although this festival focused on the baptism of Jesus.[23]

Christmas was promoted in the east as part of the revival of Catholicism following the death of the pro-Arian Emperor Valens at the Battle of Adrianople in 378. The feast was introduced to Constantinople in 379, to Antioch in about 380, and to Alexandria in about 430. Christmas was especially controversial in 4th century Constantinople, being the "fortress of Arianism," as Edward Gibbon described it. The feast disappeared after Gregory of Nazianzus resigned as bishop in 381, although it was reintroduced by John Chrysostom in about 400.[2]


Middle Ages

Adoration of the Magi by Don Lorenzo Monaco (1422).In the Early Middle Ages, Christmas Day was overshadowed by Epiphany, which in the west focused on the visit of the magi. But the Medieval calendar was dominated by Christmas-related holidays. The forty days before Christmas became the "forty days of St. Martin" (which began on November 11, the feast of St. Martin of Tours), now known as Advent.[24] In Italy, former Saturnalian traditions were attached to Advent.[24] Around the 12th century, these traditions transferred again to the Twelve Days of Christmas (December 26 - January 6).[24]. The evening of January 5 was called Twelfth Night, a festival later celebrated in the play of that name by William Shakespeare. The fortieth day after Christmas was Candlemas.

The prominence of Christmas Day increased gradually after Charlemagne was crowned on Christmas Day in 800. King William I of England was crowned on Christmas Day 1066.

By the High Middle Ages, the holiday had become so prominent that chroniclers routinely noted where various magnates celebrated Christmas. King Richard II of England hosted a Christmas feast in 1377 at which twenty-eight oxen and three hundred sheep were eaten.[24] The Yule boar was a common feature of medieval Christmas feasts. Caroling also became popular, and was originally a group of dancers who sang. The group was composed of a lead singer and a ring of dancers that provided the chorus. Various writers of the time condemned caroling as lewd, indicating that the unruly traditions of Saturnalia and Yule may have continued in this form.[24] "Misrule" — drunkenness, promiscuity, gambling — was also an important aspect of the festival. In England, gifts were exchanged on New Year's Day, and there was special Christmas ale.[24]

Often the "misrule" got quite out of hand. Revelers would knock at a door and demand the best portion of their host's food and ale, with "severe consequences" if he did not agree. This extended was beyond the Middle Ages.

In the North of England (Derbyshire and South Yorkshire particularly) there was an 'Old Tup' tradition where the wild boys of the village would take a sheep's skull on a stick or a crude representation (such as a roughly carved turnip) and go from door to door and into the pubs as well delivering a short play (now classed as 'ritual drama') accompanied by a song - often 'The Derby Ram'. Households were expected to give generously and if they didn't the Tup and his team would get inside the house and overturn furniture. (From a verbal account by Sam Mitchell in Birdsedge, Yorkshire, who recalled the last 'Old Tup' in Birdsedge being thrown on a rubbish heap some time in the 1920s) It's unclear when the Tup tradition dates from, but it certainly survived in a few villages in Derbyshire right into the early 1970s when a documentary was made by the English Folk Dance and Song Society. By that time it had changed into a 'cadging' tradition. Young boys, traditionally under the legal drinking age of 18, would be allowed into pubs to perform their Tup play and the bucket would be passed around for coins.

In the 18th & 19th century most of the door-to-door visits were by slightly less violent, but often boisterous, teams of Wassailers. Often these were 'luck' visits. Food and drink were given to the revellers in exchange for wishes of fecundity, fertility and prosperity for the coming year. The term 'wassail' possibly comes from 'wes hael' - Norse for be whole', 'be hale' or 'be of good health.'Wassailing was generally accompanied by the singing of wassailing songs. 'Figgy Pudding' or 'We Wish you a Merry Christmas' is probably the best known of all the wassailing songs. See also The Gloucestershire Wassail (Wassail, wassail all over the town, Our toast it is white and our ale it is brown, Our bowl it is made of the white maple tree, With a Wassailing bowl, we'll drink to thee etc.)


Excerpt from Josiah King's The Examination and Tryal of Father Christmas (1686), published shortly after Christmas was reinstated as a holy day in England.

The Reformation and the 1800s

During the Reformation, Protestants condemned Christmas celebration as "trappings of popery" and the "rags of the Beast". The Catholic Church responded by promoting the festival in an even more religiously oriented form. Following the Parliamentary victory over King Charles I during the English Civil War, England's Puritan rulers banned Christmas, in 1647. Pro-Christmas rioting broke out in several cities, and for several weeks Canterbury was controlled by the rioters, who decorated doorways with holly and shouted royalist slogans.[25] The Restoration of 1660 ended the ban, but most of the Anglican clergy still disapproved of Christmas celebrations, using Protestant arguments.

In Colonial America, the Puritans of New England disapproved of Christmas; its celebration was outlawed in Boston from 1659 to 1681. At the same time, Christian residents of Virginia and New York observed the holiday freely. Christmas fell out of favor in the United States after the American Revolution, when it was considered an English custom.

By the 1820s, sectarian tension in England had eased and British writers began to worry that Christmas was dying out. They imagined Tudor Christmas as a time of heartfelt celebration, and efforts were made to revive the holiday. Charles Dickens' book A Christmas Carol, published in 1843, played a major role in reinventing Christmas as a holiday emphasizing family, goodwill, and compassion over communal celebration and hedonistic excess.[26]

Interest in Christmas in America was revived in the 1820s by several short stories by Washington Irving appearing in his The Sketch Book of Geoffrey Crayon and "Old Christmas",and by Clement Clarke Moore's 1822 poem A Visit From St. Nicholas (poularly known by its first line: Twas the Night Before Christmas. Irving's stories depicted harmonious warm-hearted holiday traditions he claimed to have observed in England. Although some argue that Irving invented the traditions he describes, they were widely imitated by his American readers.[27] The numerous German immigrants and the homecomings following the American Civil War helped promote the holiday by bringing with them continental European traditions. Christmas was declared a U.S. Federal holiday in 1870 .


The 20th century and after

"Now it is Christmas again" (1907) by Carl Larsson.In 1914, the first year of World War I, there was an unofficial truce between German and British troops in France. Soldiers on both sides spontaneously began to sing carols and stopped fighting. The truce began on Christmas Day and continued for some time afterwards.[28] Many stories about the truce include a football game between the trench lines.

Throughout the 20th century, the United States experienced controversy over the nature of Christmas, and its dual status as a religious feast day and a secular holiday of the same name. Some considered the U.S. government's recognition of Christmas as a federal holiday to be a violation of the separation of church and state. This was brought to trial several times, recently including in Lynch v. Donnelly (1984)[8] and Ganulin v. United States (1999).[29] On December 6, 1999, the verdict for Ganulin v. United States (1999) declared that "the establishment of Christmas Day as a legal public holiday does not violate the Establishment Clause because it has a valid secular purpose." This decision was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court on December 19, 2000. At the same time, many devout Christians objected to what they saw as the vulgarization and cooption of one of their sacred observances by secular commercial society and calls to return to "the true meaning of Christmas" were common. (See:Christmas controversies)

Debates about Christmas in America continued into the 21st century. In 2005, when commercial interests sought to ameliorate Christians concerned with protecting the sacredness of their holiday and non-Christians uncomfortable with the perceived connection to faith, some Christians, along with American political commentators such as Bill O'Reilly, protested perceiving that it represented the secularization of Christmas rather than its protection. They felt that the holiday was threatened by a general secular trend, or by persons and organizations with an anti-Christian agenda. The perceived trend was also blamed on political correctness.[30]

The ONLY thing I see in there about paganism was that the christmas holiday was invented to entice and convert them. It does not state that they invented the holiday, just that annual winter festivals were celebrated by EVERYONE.

Yea they celebrated in the festivals, but only to celebrate the fact that they had less work to do in the winter time and they danced around naked.

Which I'm assuming if you really want to take back the holiday, would be amusing to watch.