Question for Atheists

[S_H_F_4839]

then why have hell at all?

I don't know, not going to pretend I know. But I would suspect god made it for atheists, Just Kidding.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

Because in His holiness and purity, God cannot allow a flawed, fallen race to enter a glorious Paradise. We must be redeemed first, through the blood of Christ, by faith.

god created the flaw.
I did nothing, and your god is going to punish me for something that someone did thousands of years ago?

your god sounds like a Psycho!

"I need more blood! more perfect man blood!!!"

 

[Mr Sparkle]

I don't know, not going to pretend I know. But I would suspect god made it for atheists, Just Kidding.

or the prideful

 

[Superhobo]

Ya know, Moviefan, despite the fact that your arguments draw me into a whole range of reactions (laughter) that I'm pretty sure aren't healthy in large amounts, I've got an idea for a discussion. It's a pretty "hot button" issue, but one you've talked about before, actually.

Okay, you've said your stance on gay marriage once or twice, and you think its wrong (now, I'm not challenging anyone else, this is just to moviefan), and a sin. Your proof for this is Sodom and Gomorrah, and also some of the Epistles of Paul. Now, as we've all noticed, the Bible has a particular affinity for irrational rules and punishments in the Old Testament (as well as the rest of the book, but that's neither here nor there). All sorts of things besides the stuff we've mentioned was religiously banned; for example, you couldn't eat shellfish, or pork, and we all know about the 'blood of infants' thing. And, fantastic and cruel punishments were thus put forth for doing such things (or not, as in the case of the blood of the infants thing). Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but does not Sodom and Gomorrah take place in the Old? And, hasn't one of your "stupendous" arguments been that all those outrageous 'sins' and rules were banished with Christ's sacrifice? The Epistles of Paul I'm not sure of, but I'm sure someone else can handle that.

 

[S_H_F_4839]

or the prideful

good one.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

God created the flaw.

Actually, humanity did when Adam & Eve freely chose to give in to temptation, rather than resisting it.

I did nothing, and your god is going to punish me for something that someone did thousands of years ago?

OK, if you honestly believe you've done nothing worthy of punishment by God's rules, compare yourself to the Ten Commandments. Everyone's broken them.

- Don't have any other gods before God: Have you ever thought anything about God that was different from His descriptions in the Bible? If so, that's one guilty count...and everyone's thought that way at some point, including me.

- Do not make for yourself any idolatrous image: this includes making anything in your life more important to you than God.

- Do not take the Lord's name in vain: If you've ever combined God's name with a swear word, then that violates the Third Commandment.

- Observe the Sabbath day and keep it holy: Ever worked on a Saturday, or done anything but reserve that day for relaxation and reflection on God?

- Honor your father and mother: If you've evr been unjustly agry (by God's standard, not yours) with either of your parents, or treated them with any kind of disrespect, then there goes that one.

- Do not commit murder: Most of us think we're clear on that one, but Jesus furthered it, saying "Whoever hates his brethren is a murderer."

- Do not commit adultery: This includes both fornication and extramirital affairs. Jesus furthered this one as well, saying "Whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." I know I'm guilty of all these thus far.

- Do not steal: If you've ever taken anything that wasn't yours without permission (even if you returned it later), that's considered theft in God's eyes.

- Do not testify falsely against your neighbor: Also known as "do not lie", and if you say you haven't, then that's your first one right there.

- Do not covet your neighbor's house, wife, servant, cattle, or anything else that belongs to them: If you've ever wanted anything anyone else has to the point you were jealous of them, then that's Number Ten.

If you are brutally honest with yourself, then you'll relaize every human on the planet has broken these in spirit, if not in letter. Thus, we are all guilty, deserving of eternal punishment...but Christ died so we wouldn't have to go through that. All we do is accept and follow Him; that's it.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

Ya know, Moviefan, despite the fact that your arguments draw me into a whole range of reactions that I'm pretty sure aren't healthy in large amounts, I've got an idea for a discussion. It's a pretty "hot button" issue, but one you've talked about before, actually.

Okay, you've said your stance on gay marriage once or twice, and you think its wrong (now, I'm not challenging anyone else, this is just to moviefan), and a sin. Your proof for this is Sodom and Gomorrah, and also some of the Epistles of Paul. Now, as we've all noticed, the Bible has a particular affinity for irrational rules and punishments in the Old Testament (as well as the rest of the book, but that's neither here nor there). All sorts of things besides the stuff we've mentioned was religiously banned; for example, you couldn't eat shellfish, or pork, and we all know about the 'blood of infants' thing. And, fantastic and cruel punishments were thus put forth for doing such things (or not, as in the case of the blood of the infants thing). Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but does not Sodom and Gomorrah take place in the Old? And, hasn't one of your "stupendous" arguments been that all those outrageous 'sins' and rules were banished with Christ's sacrifice? The Epistles of Paul I'm not sure of, but I'm sure someone else can handle that.

Actually, what I stated was that the punishments and the need for blood sacrifices were done away with; the Ten Commandments still apply.

 

[S_H_F_4839]

Anyone here good at making flash animations?

the reason I post this in this thread is, I was watching Planet of the Apes earlier, and I got this image in my head, I think its funny most people probably wont. But picture this

Planet of the Atheists:Christs return

 

[Superhobo]

Actually, what I stated was that the punishments and the need for blood sacrifices were done away with; the Ten Commandments still apply.

This answers nothing.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

the Pauline Epistles took place in the New Testament. As for the gay-marriage thing, yes it is immoral and sinful. That is one of the reasons why the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. the people there were completely unrepentant and evil. God told Lot than if he found even ten people in the whole town, then he'd spare them all...but no one was found except Lot and his few family members. So, God went through with His promise, decimating the city and its people. And, my clarification post does make sense: in the New Covenant, the Commandments still apply, but the need to make a blood sacrifice or abstain from certain foods is no longer required. Those were signs of repentance, but now all that's needed is to put aside selfishness, pride, and disbelief, accepting the fact that you need a Savior, and that Jesus is it.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

Actually, humanity did when Adam & Eve freely chose to give in to temptation, rather than resisting it.

and IF they had been created perfect, temptation would've hold no sway over them.
hence, created flawed see?
it's THAT easy.

OK, if you honestly believe you've done nothing worthy of punishment by God's rules, compare yourself to the Ten Commandments. Everyone's broken them.

firstly, I thought, we were paying for the sins of Adam and Eve, it seems to shift every time I have an argument with a Christian, sometimes it's stuff I did, sometimes is stuff done in the past.
again, wasn't I created like this?....if god created me, whose responsibilities are my flaws?

- Don't have any other gods before God: Have you ever thought anything about God that was different from His descriptions in the Bible? If so, that's one guilty count...and everyone's thought that way at some point, including me.

actually, this means that you shouldn't worship other deities.
I don't worship ANY deities though.
I guess I'm cool.
you however, seem to hold a description of god quite different from the on in the bible, better get a prayin'boy!

- Do not make for yourself any idolatrous image: this includes making anything in your life more important to you than God.

actually, this means, I shouldn't carve or produce images or effigies of other deities.
who is explaining these to you? he seems confused.

- Do not take the Lord's name in vain: If you've ever combined God's name with a swear word, then that violates the Third Commandment.

actually, this means using the lord's name for anything OTHER than worship.

- Observe the Sabbath day and keep it holy: Ever worked on a Saturday, or done anything but reserve that day for relaxation and reflection on God?

whoops, god hates poor people and students that need summer jobs, plus, he hates single mothers and pretty much everyone who's had to cover a shift for a friend.

uh, nice god you have there.

- Honor your father and mother: If you've evr been unjustly agry (by God's standard, not yours) with either of your parents, or treated them with any kind of disrespect, then there goes that one.

LOL, "God's standard" well, of course I have been unjustly angry.
it's part of being a human, a non-omniscient human. that's subject to misunderstandings.
plus the raging hormones of youth.
I believe god made me like that right?
since he created everything and stuff.

- Do not commit murder: Most of us think we're clear on that one, but Jesus furthered it, saying "Whoever hates his brethren is a murderer."

ahahahahaha I love that one.
"you see what I meant by murder was...."
Jeeeeesus, Psycho god strikes again.

- Do not commit adultery: This includes both fornication and extramirital affairs. Jesus furthered this one as well, saying "Whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." I know I'm guilty of all these thus far.

I try to fornicate with my gf at least twice a week.
it keeps us close and our relationship strong.
plus, I saw this movie and Megan Fox looked .....uh.....I fornicated her with my eyes for like 2 hours, fornicated her good!

- Do not steal: If you've ever taken anything that wasn't yours without permission (even if you returned it later), that's considered theft in God's eyes.

I once retransmitted a baseball game with the implied oral consent, but not the expressed written consent.

- Do not testify falsely against your neighbor: Also known as "do not lie", and if you say you haven't, then that's your first one right there.

ha! so basically, god sets up these rules that he knows we can't possibly follow to force us into loving him out of the fear that because we didn't follow these inhuman rules we are "bad"and "flawed"in his eyes.
seriously, worst. dad. ever!!!!

- Do not covet your neighbor's house, wife, servant, cattle, or anything else that belongs to them: If you've ever wanted anything anyone else has to the point you were jealous of them, then that's Number Ten.

when I was 13 I had this neighbor and his wife was suppppper hot.
I coveted her, I coveted her good, and then I fornicated her with my eyes for like two hours, and then I fornicated her in my mind for like....15 minutes. but because someone knocked on the bathroom door and I got nervous, if not I would've fornicated her less.

If you are brutally honest with yourself, then you'll relaize every human on the planet has broken these in spirit, if not in letter. Thus, we are all guilty, deserving of eternal punishment...but Christ died so we wouldn't have to go through that. All we do is accept and follow Him; that's it.

are
you
kidding
me?

I don't think that because a guy wants to **** Carmen Electra he is deserving of an eternity of pain and torture, seriously are you some sort of freak?
are you saying that because a widow has to work on Saturdays she is deserving of hell?

deserving?

do you know what you're saying??????


OH
MY
GOD!!!!

 

[Superhobo]

Mr. Sparkle is so awesome.

 

[Superhobo]

the Pauline Epistles took place in the New Testament. As for the gay-marriage thing, yes it is immoral and sinful. That is one of the reasons why the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. the people there were completely unrepentant and evil. God told Lot than if he found even ten people in the whole town, then he'd spare them all...but no one was found except Lot and his few family members. So, God went through with His promise, decimating the city and its people. And, my clarification post does make sense: in the New Covenant, the Commandments still apply, but the need to make a blood sacrifice or abstain from certain foods is no longer required. Those were signs of repentance, but now all that's needed is to put aside selfishness, pride, and disbelief, accepting the fact that you need a Savior, and that Jesus is it.

You know, funny thing about the Old Testament: You know who was REALLY gay? The Israelite nobles who forced themselves on their slaves. Little known HISTORICAL fact.

No offense intended to any Jewish people.

 

[S_H_F_4839]

OH
MY
GOD!!!!

Thats number three I'm telling.

Just kidding again, you guys are taking this entirely too personally. Both sides are keeping this argument going when there is not going to be a victor, except in each of your minds, you will both walk away thinking you won, because neither side can convince the other. It doesn't matter what evidence about evolution you post or how many scriptures you post, because on this issue both sides are close minded to the others point of view. I mean thats whats great about free will is we have the right and ability to believe how we want, And like I said in an earlier post my only reason for getting involved now is because I want to understand the other side atheism and its beliefs.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

I want to understand the other side atheism and its beliefs.

I'm not an atheist , so you're looking at the wrong person.

 

[S_H_F_4839]

I'm not an atheist , so you're looking at the wrong person.

I would say could've fooled me, but you already did, because I was under the impression you were.

But I won't limit myself to just atheism and christianity, I am willing to learn about any idea or belief opposed to mine.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

oh crap stormy precious is in the forum.
this thread about to get a heavy dose of insane/scary/fundamentalist/*****ebaggery.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

I would say could've fooled me, but you already did, because I was under the impression you were.

agnosticism FTW!!!

 

[Mr Sparkle]

oh crap stormy precious is in the forum.
this thread about to get a heavy dose of insane/scary/fundamentalist/*****ebaggery.

whew! he is busy lusting after his neighbor's wife.
we're safe.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

OK, Sparkle; I'm gonna try my best to make this crystal-clear for you. In the beginning, when God created humanity, He made them perfect. He gave them the free will to abandon that perfection, because He knew that otherwise, their love wouldn't be from the heart, and thus worthless to Him. They were faced with temptation from Satan, and chose of their own free will to follow it rather than God. Because of this, they were rendered imperfect, and as punishment, a curse was placed on their descendants (us), and humanity was expelled from Paradise. That curse gives us an inbred desire to follow sin, whereas before the Fall, humans were tempted, and yet didn't have the automatic desire to listen to those lies. Jesus was born not of man's doing, but by the spirit of God, and therefore was not subject to the aforementioned curse. He was tempted in all ways, as we are, but chose of His own will to follow God's path above His own. He never broke any of the Commandments, or did anything wrong whatsoever. That is simply unfathomable by the intellect of a fallen race, but it's true. Because Christ had committed no sin, then when he was crucified, the full punishment for all sin was supernaturally placed onto Him. He even cried out, "My God, my God! Why have you forsaken me?" He knew God was still there, but this cry was one of despair, itself a punishment for sin. This completely selfless and loving event totally revamped the Covenant. God now says, "He who believes in the Son is not condemned, but He who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God." The only way we escape eternal torment is by trusting God over ourselves, and placing genuine faith in Jesus for salvation. We can choose eternity with God, or without God, and either way, He will give us the fate determined by that choice.

 

[S_H_F_4839]

agnosticism FTW!!!

My brother claimed he was agnostic, I didn't understand it at first, he told me he didn't believe but he was open to the idea of believing if some proof could be found. Then like I said yesterday two weeks ago he came out and said he was an atheist that he had made up the agnostic belief because he didn't want lectures from the christians in my family.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

when God created humanity, He made them perfect. He gave them the free will to abandon that perfection, because He knew that otherwise, their love wouldn't be from the heart, and thus worthless to Him.

1. you can love someone and disobey him/her
2. you can't make a perfect thing that betrays you, unless it's a robot servant and it gets it's settings dial stuck on "betray"
3.- by definition, perfect beings, would make perfect choices.


I mean, duh. they would be perfect.
if they are subject to temptation that makes them "flawed"

They were faced with temptation from Satan,

the serpent wasn't satan
do you even read the bible?
why would he punish the serpent and make it eat dust and crawl upon it's belly if it was Satan??????

and chose of their own free will to follow it rather than God. Because of this, they were rendered imperfect, and as punishment, a curse was placed on their descendants (us),

no, their imperfection led to their fall from grace, THEIR fall, for which God punishes all of us to this day.
seriously think about that.

seriously.

and humanity was expelled from Paradise. That curse gives us an inbred desire to follow sin, whereas before the Fall, humans were tempted, and yet didn't have the automatic desire to listen to those lies.

God cursed them
the curse gives us a desire to follow sin
sin is bad and makes god punish us.
so basically god stack the odds in favor of us following sin?
why would he do that?

what a psycho.

Jesus was born not of man's doing, but by the spirit of God, and therefore was not subject to the aforementioned curse. He was tempted in all ways, as we are, but chose of His own will to follow God's path above His own. He never broke any of the Commandments, or did anything wrong whatsoever. That is simply unfathomable by the intellect of a fallen race, but it's true.

well, he was the son of god.
God made him perfect and he was a part of him.
God expects us to be like his son, who is a part of him?
as soon as my son is born I'm going to put a laptop in front of him and say "design a building! design it now!!!!! I need a bidding set!!!"

and when he fails I'll laugh and punish him!
because that's how I roll! like god, liek a holy roller!

Because Christ had committed no sin, then when he was crucified, the full punishment for all sin was supernaturally placed onto Him.

then why are we still cursed?

He even cried out, "My God, my God! Why have you forsaken me?" He knew God was still there, but this cry was one of despair, itself a punishment for sin.

the hell? that doesn't even make sense.

This completely selfless and loving event totally revamped the Covenant. God now says, "He who believes in the Son is not condemned, but He who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God."

what exactly is selfless and loving? tons of people have died because of persecution and unjust execution.
what made this exceptional? what about saying "jesus is my own personal saviour" is going to help me.
i'll still struggle and suffer, but that will give god some sort of sick and twisted pleasure that I now "accept" that someone died for me before I was even born because god blamed me for something I didn't even do?
and wait, he also blames me for stuff I was going to do, that he knows I would because to not do it I'd have to be prefect like him and not only am I not perfect but he cursed me with the "inbred desire" to sin?


seriously dude, do you ever listen to yourself?

The only way we escape eternal torment is by trusting God over ourselves, and placing genuine faith in Jesus for salvation. We can choose eternity with God, or without God, and either way, He will give us the fate determined by that choice.

no, to give us a choice he would stand before all of us and let us choose, personally.
he doesn't, he relies on the badly written and incomplete voices of men to tell his perfect will.

yeah.

no.

sorry.

 

[Abaddon]

OK, Sparkle; I'm gonna try my best to make this crystal-clear for you. In the beginning, when God created humanity, He made them perfect. He gave them the free will to abandon that perfection, because He knew that otherwise, their love wouldn't be from the heart, and thus worthless to Him. They were faced with temptation from Satan, and chose of their own free will to follow it rather than God. Because of this, they were rendered imperfect, and as punishment, a curse was placed on their descendants (us), and humanity was expelled from Paradise.

It sounds more like free will was the imperfection, and God's just passing the buck.

That curse gives us an inbred desire to follow sin, whereas before the Fall, humans were tempted, and yet didn't have the automatic desire to listen to those lies. Jesus was born not of man's doing, but by the spirit of God, and therefore was not subject to the aforementioned curse. He was tempted in all ways, as we are, but chose of His own will to follow God's path above His own. He never broke any of the Commandments, or did anything wrong whatsoever. That is simply unfathomable by the intellect of a fallen race, but it's true. Because Christ had committed no sin, then when he was crucified, the full punishment for all sin was supernaturally placed onto Him. He even cried out, "My God, my God! Why have you forsaken me?" He knew God was still there, but this cry was one of despair, itself a punishment for sin. This completely selfless and loving event totally revamped the Covenant. God now says, "He who believes in the Son is not condemned, but He who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God." The only way we escape eternal torment is by trusting God over ourselves, and placing genuine faith in Jesus for salvation. We can choose eternity with God, or without God, and either way, He will give us the fate determined by that choice.

and if you choose something he doesn't like, he'll punish you. There's no freedom there, unless you don't care about suffering eternal damnation.

 

[Superhobo]

"OK, Sparkle; I'm gonna try my best to make this crystal-clear for you Because you're, you know, so much wiser than him.. In the beginning, when God created humanity, He made them perfect Follow you so far.. He gave them the free will to abandon that perfection, because He knew that otherwise, their love wouldn't be from the heart If they...what?, and thus worthless to Him Okay, slightly skewed a bit, but okay. Choosy, isn't god?. They were faced with temptation from Satan, and chose of their own free will to follow it rather than God But, if they were 'perfect' beings, even with the free will to abandon such a perfection, wouldn't they be, I dunno, PERFECT?. Because of this, they were rendered imperfect Because of god., and as punishment, a curse was placed on their descendants (us), and humanity was expelled from Paradise. That curse gives us an inbred desire to follow sinwhich "curses" us, by god's will, to commit sin., whereas before the Fall, humans were tempted, and yet didn't have the automatic desire to listen to those lies . Jesus was born not of man's doing, but by the spirit of God, and therefore was not subject to the aforementioned curse. He was tempted in all ways, as we are, but chose of His own will to follow God's path above His own. He never broke any of the Commandments, or did anything wrong whatsoever. That is simply unfathomable by the intellect of a fallen race Funny. You know who else used phrases like 'fallen race?' HITLER! The whole 'fallen race' thing, by one of the 'fallen,' sounds like something from some beaten wife who's been convinced she's done some wrong to be beaten so bad., but it's true. Because Christ had committed no sin, then when he was crucified, the full punishment for all sin was supernaturally placed onto Him . He even cried out, "My God, my God! Why have you forsaken me?" He knew God was still there, but this cry was one of despair, itself a punishment for sin This makes no damn sense.. This completely selfless and loving event totally revamped the Covenant And, yet, we're still 'cursed.' Apparently.. God now says, "He who believes in the Son is not condemned, but He who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God."So, people who have been raised the same way as you regarding religion (except of their own faith), perhaps even going through the same vision deal as you did, and who have committed themselves to their religion, because, just like you with your Christianity, they're convinced that their religion is the One True Faith, are going to hell because nothing in their life beforehand has proven to them otherwise, just like you? Or, natives of some far off place who know nothing other than their own god or gods, are going to hell because, what, they never had the chance to "convert to the One True Faith"? Or what of Ghandi, a Hindu, and arguably one of the greatest humans ever? That whole statement, whether you paraphrased it or whether it came from holy writ, is extremely pretentious. Basically, it says, no matter if you CURE ****ING AIDS and SOLVE WORLD HUNGER or not, you'd better be part of my religion, or you're going to hell! No matter the fact that you've probably saved hundreds of millions of lives. You ain't Christian, it's hell, son. The only way we escape eternal torment is by trusting God over ourselves Because, you know, giving someone else complete control over our lives has gone so well in the past, and placing genuine faith in Jesus for salvation. We can choose eternity with God, or without God, and either way, He will give us the fate determined by that choice And, if we do something he doesn't like, he says, 'Well, poo on you, and burn in hell!' This is an attitude more akin to a toddler than to an omnipresent deity, wouldn't you say? .

Okay, it's now four in the 'morn. I'm SO going to bd.

 

[Hyper Venom]

For me to stop being an Aetheist, I'd have to see Jesus, or God, or Satan, or something that isn't vague and mysterious. Show me some concrete proof. And even then I still might not convert.