racism in hollywood - and how far it has come.

[The Question]

The problem is you're not looking for the best actor for the job. You're narrowing down the list of potential actors to only one group.

I fail to see why that's a problem. That's how casting works. You send out call sheets for actors fitting certain parameters of age, gender, and race.

What you're talking about is only a problem if there aren't amazingly talented people of color in the acting business, which is obviously not the case. Changing a character's race doesn't make it any less likely to find a talented actor who suits the role.

 

[The Question]

Oh. Oh, I get it. Change the race, but not the age. So you're ageist! Well, I have a grandfather who will have trouble relating to Harry Potter now. Plus, he's American. Double whammy!

Yeah, I went into great detail about how this isn't about relatability. I wrote a little thing about it, I actually thought it was quite nice.

So you're cool changing racial aspects of a character, but no other aspects? Why can't we make Harry Potter old? Or American?

Because being about little kids going to school is one of the core concepts that the Harry Potter series is about, and America absolutely dominates global pop culture as a general rule, so it's only fair that a British series that's steeped in British cultural tropes should remain British in it's adaptation.

Also because Mr. T can't act.

Nah. I'll let you work that one out.

Well I won't, because I honestly believe what you're saying to be untrue, so unless you explain your point of view then you just said a thing and let it hang there.

So basically this is an affirmative action hire. Black actors playing white parts is okay, but white actors playing black parts isn't. So this is basically one-sided in other words. If you were truly honest that race shouldn't matter, why couldn't white actors play black parts as well?

Because there is an imbalance in the representation of different ethnicities in popular media that disproportionately favors white people, and I'm talking about doing something to level out that imbalance. White actors being cast in non-white roles furthers that imbalance. Its a pretty simple concept.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Yeah, I went into great detail about how this isn't about relatability. I wrote a little thing about it, I actually thought it was quite nice.

Sorry. I don't scrutinize all of your posts as if they were Carl Sagan essays. I must have missed that one.

Because being about little kids going to school is one of the core concepts that the Harry Potter series is about, and America absolutely dominates global pop culture as a general rule, so it's only fair that a British series that's steeped in British cultural tropes should remain British in it's adaptation.

Why can't we change that though? I feel the British are too over-represented in today's pop-culture, what with royal babies and James Bond. Let's make Harry Potter..... um..... Canadian. And let's make him obese. We don't have enough obese heroes.

I mean, you were willing to change Magneto from being Jewish to being Cambodian. And Quicksilver's Eastern European heritage wasn't too important to you. How come those histories can be changed, but we can't put Harry Potter in a snowy Canadian school? And I still find it strange you think changing when WW2 occurred is such a reach in the Marvel Universe, where I'm sure Magneto alone has died and come back to life a half dozen times. But I digress.

Because there is an imbalance in the representation of different ethnicities in popular media that disproportionately favors white people, and I'm talking about doing something to level out that imbalance. White actors being cast in non-white roles furthers that imbalance. Its a pretty simple concept.

What about changing an Asian character to a black character? Or vice-versa? Or is it only white characters that should be changed? I would be more on board with this if it equally applied to everyone, instead of being so cynically targeted towards one group of people.

 

[The Question]

Sorry. I don't scrutinize all of your posts as if they were Carl Sagan essays. I must have missed that one.

I'm not asking for academic scrutiny, I'm just asking that you read and remember the things that I'm saying.

Why can't we change that though? I feel the British are too over-represented in today's pop-culture, what with royal babies and James Bond. Let's make Harry Potter..... um..... Canadian. And let's make him obese. We don't have enough obese heroes.

But the British aren't over-represented in today's pop culture. That sort of thing really isn't a matter of opinion. British pop culture, all pop culture around the world, plays second fiddle to American pop culture by a wide margin.

Making Harry Potter Canadian would probably be less offensive to me than making him American, but helping out one under-represented group at the expense of another under-represented group doesn't seem like the right way to go about it.

What about changing an Asian character to a black character? Or vice-versa? Or is it only white characters that should be changed? I would be more on board with this if it equally applied to everyone, instead of being so cynically targeted towards one group of people.

Why should it be equally applied to everyone? There aren't equal levels of need, that's the problem. There is an imbalance that disproportionately favors white people. I'm talking about leveling out that imbalance. Making an Asian character black or making a black character Asian would be helping an under-representd group at the expense of another under-represented group, and it certainly doesn't do anything to address that imbalance. I don't see how what I'm saying is cynical or unreasonable.

Why does it need to be equally applied to all groups when the situation between these groups is already unequal?

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I'm not asking for academic scrutiny, I'm just asking that you read and remember the things that I'm saying.

Then you probably didn't make the point clear enough, no offense.

But the British aren't over-represented in today's pop culture. That sort of thing really isn't a matter of opinion. British pop culture, all pop culture around the world, plays second fiddle to American pop culture by a wide margin.

Saying the British are underrepresented in pop-culture is about the funniest thing I've heard all week. Two of the biggest franchises of all time have British leads (James Bond and Harry Potter) and tons of other films (Simon Pegg's stuff like Shaun of the Dead, the Guy Ritchie gangster films, Danny Boyle's films) and shows (Downton Abbey, The Office, all those Simon Cowell-run talent shows) have become very popular in recent years. Plus, you had all the hooplah over the royal wedding and royal baby. So I can't understand how anyone could think Britain has even been remotely marginalized in pop-culture.

Making Harry Potter Canadian would probably be less offensive to me than making him American, but helping out one under-represented group at the expense of another under-represented group doesn't seem like the right way to go about it.

Which is another example of why I think for you, political correctness trumps storyline considerations. And why I think this stuff is too cynical and calculated.

Why should it be equally applied to everyone? There aren't equal levels of need, that's the problem. There is an imbalance that disproportionately favors white people. I'm talking about leveling out that imbalance. Making an Asian character black or making a black character Asian would be helping an under-representd group at the expense of another under-represented group, and it certainly doesn't do anything to address that imbalance. I don't see how what I'm saying is cynical or unreasonable.

Why does the change need to be forced? As America's demographics change, minorities will be better represented naturally. You see that in franchises like Fast & The Furious. I think when change is forced on characters it comes off as artficial. Which is why I'm a greater advocate for creating new characters than changing old ones.

And it's cynical because it sounds like a decision made in a boardroom to maximize profit and target one group. It's also a bit patronizing. Strong black leads exist and more can be created. Sometimes characters can change race, if the actor gives the best interpretation. But to award the actor the character based primarily on his race is the wrong way to go about it. If the black actor auditioning for the role of Harry Potter or whoever else, gives the best damn audition that day.... give him the role. But he should get it based on his talent, not his skin color.

That's why it's cynical.

 

[The Question]

Then you probably didn't make the point clear enough, no offense.

"I'd also argue that it really isn't about identification. It's about representation, which is different. Identification if about getting members of the audience to form an emotional connection with the character on the screen or on the page. A similar ethnic background can be one such way of forging that connection, but there are many other possible avenues, including personal experiences and character traits and environment. I'm not a rich black kid from southern California, but I can still identify with the character of Carlton Banks on the Fresh Prince of Bel Air because I've gone through similar experiences of awkwardness and having my trust in civic institutions shattered.

(As a brief aside, I find the notion that a white person can only identify with Batman because he's white to say more bad things about that person than anything else.)

Representation, on the other hand, is about saying loud and clear that a particular group of people exist and that they matter. We need heroic leads in films who are women and LGBT and people of color, not simply so that those groups can identify with them (although that helps and is a nice thing), but to state very plainly that those people can be the hero, that they're not defined by nonsense stereotypes and that they're worthy of our respect and of being our surrogates on these fantastical journeys and that they matter. White people don't need that because we've already been told that, people have been telling that to us our whole lives. We don't need representation because white representation is the default.

I, and hopefully most other white people, will still have the capacity to identify with Superman if they made him black, latino, asian, a pacific islander, native American, what have you. But a group of people, historically marginalized by society, now being represented by America's greatest and most beloved cultural hero? Man, that would be powerful."

What about that is unclear?

Saying the British are underrepresented in pop-culture is about the funniest thing I've heard all week. Two of the biggest franchises of all time have British leads (James Bond and Harry Potter) and tons of other films (Simon Pegg's stuff like Shaun of the Dead, the Guy Ritchie gangster films, Danny Boyle's films) and shows (Downton Abbey, The Office, all those Simon Cowell-run talent shows) have become very popular in recent years. Plus, you had all the hooplah over the royal wedding and royal baby. So I can't understand how anyone could think Britain has even been remotely marginalized in pop-culture.

You don't think Britain is still secondary to America when it comes to pop culture influence?

Which is another example of why I think for you, political correctness trumps storyline considerations. And why I think this stuff is too cynical and calculated.

What about that statement implies that I think political correctness should trump story concerns?

Why does the change need to be forced? As America's demographics change, minorities will be better represented naturally. You see that in franchises like Fast & The Furious. I think when change is forced on characters it comes off as artficial. Which is why I'm a greater advocate for creating new characters than changing old ones.

Change needs to be forced because that's how you get change to happen. You say that demographic shifts will naturally bring about a more equitable representation of different groups, but I see no evidence to suggest that that's how things play out. Numbers aren't what cause these dynamics of oppression and marginalization. They're a factor, but the much larger factor is people's attitudes and the culture's traditions.

Also, what do you mean by "comes off as artificial?"

And it's cynical because it sounds like a decision made in a boardroom to maximize profit and target one group.

Profit has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. It's not a consideration.

It's also a bit patronizing. Strong black leads exist and more can be created. Sometimes characters can change race, if the actor gives the best interpretation. But to award the actor the character based primarily on his race is the wrong way to go about it. If the black actor auditioning for the role of Harry Potter or whoever else, gives the best damn audition that day.... give him the role. But he should get it based on his talent, not his skin color.

Of course the actor gets the part based on his or her talent. I'm not saying that parts should be given to terrible actors because of their race. I'm saying that, when looking for the best actors or actresses for a role, casting directors should pay special consideration to groups that have been historically marginalized. That's not patronizing, that's giving someone an opportunity that they wouldn't normally get.

It's not like I'm asking for Hollywood to do something it doesn't already do. When casting directors send out call sheets to the agencies, each character comes with a description of the kind of person they're looking for in the part, and it usually includes gender, age range, height, hair color, and often times race. All I'm asking for is a call sheet that says "Clark Kent/Superman: 25-30 year old African American male" or something to that effect. Why is that unreasonable.

That's why it's cynical.

If that's cynical, what's your notion of optimism.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Honestly this seems to be boiling down to, "they should change them from white to blank because I can't relate as well to white people, and there are too many white people already."

 

[The Question]

Honestly this seems to be boiling down to, "they should change them from white to blank because I can't relate as well to white people, and there are too many white people already."

That's not what I've been saying. First of all, I am a white person, so if I had trouble relating to white people then that'd be a problem. And second, I've said several times that relatability really isn't a factor in what I'm talking about.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I have to say that's how you come across to me.

Diversity is great, but changing a bunch of characters just for the sake of it, well, would annoy me as a fan.

Shows disregard for the creation.

 

[The Question]

I have to say that's how you come across to me.

I really don't understand how that's the case. I have said, several times and in great detail, that this isn't about relatability, mine or anyone else's. This is about representation. The only times I've ever used the world relatability are when I've said that it isn't what I'm talking about. I wrote this whole block of text that people seem to keep forgetting about:

Spoiler

"I'd also argue that it really isn't about identification. It's about representation, which is different. Identification if about getting members of the audience to form an emotional connection with the character on the screen or on the page. A similar ethnic background can be one such way of forging that connection, but there are many other possible avenues, including personal experiences and character traits and environment. I'm not a rich black kid from southern California, but I can still identify with the character of Carlton Banks on the Fresh Prince of Bel Air because I've gone through similar experiences of awkwardness and having my trust in civic institutions shattered.

(As a brief aside, I find the notion that a white person can only identify with Batman because he's white to say more bad things about that person than anything else.)

Representation, on the other hand, is about saying loud and clear that a particular group of people exist and that they matter. We need heroic leads in films who are women and LGBT and people of color, not simply so that those groups can identify with them (although that helps and is a nice thing), but to state very plainly that those people can be the hero, that they're not defined by nonsense stereotypes and that they're worthy of our respect and of being our surrogates on these fantastical journeys and that they matter. White people don't need that because we've already been told that, people have been telling that to us our whole lives. We don't need representation because white representation is the default.

I, and hopefully most other white people, will still have the capacity to identify with Superman if they made him black, latino, asian, a pacific islander, native American, what have you. But a group of people, historically marginalized by society, now being represented by America's greatest and most beloved cultural hero? Man, that would be powerful."

I don't know how to say what I mean any more plainly than that.

Diversity is great, but changing a bunch of characters just for the sake of it, well, would annoy me as a fan.

Shows disregard for the creation.

I don't see how it does.

 

[Thundercrack85]

But hey, at least you're advocating it for ideological reasons, and not purely cynical reasons like marketing and shock value. So, good on you.

 

[The Question]

But hey, at least you're advocating it for ideological reasons, and not purely cynical reasons like marketing and shock value. So, good on you.

Thanks. I guess.

 

[moviedoors]

Honestly this seems to be boiling down to, "they should change them from white to blank because I can't relate as well to white people, and there are too many white people already."

I don't how you could read what The Question has been writing and come to that conclusion.

 

[Teelie]

That's a studio mentality not the audience. The thing is the franchise model that is prevalent is preventing original and new heroes from emerging. 20-30 years ago the sequel model was different, usually they only came about after a film was successful. Characters like Rambo, Robocop and John McClean came about because the audience responded to them well and wanted more. In a way the audience was for all intense and purposes the ones who decided which heroes became household names, now there's an over reliance on preexisting heroes because the films cost so much more. They want guarantees on their investments. The audience cares, they're just not given the opportunity to see them anymore. Who was the last original character that audiences fell in love with? Jack Sparrow maybe? That was over 10 years ago.

Yes and no. Depending on your interpetation and your criteria there hasn't been a successful superhero in 30 years, or there was a decade ago. I'm hesitant to call Jack Sparrow a hero, let alone a superhero but he's certainly a successful character. So is Jason Borne but he's normal.

As far as comic books go I can cite Spawn as a successful antihero, but he's not a hero even if he falls into that genre. He's roughly 20 years old.

But none of them are on the level of Spider-Man, Superman, Batman, X-Men, etc.

Although I'm not disagreeing it's impossible to create a new superhero currently, it is definitely stacked against them to succeed. And I'm not against a new one either. The problem is there are so many heroes that they'll inevitable compared to another existing character as the black [whoever] or the asian [whoever] and so on.

To recall an earlier reference Hancock is essentially a black Superman with a drinking problem and a slightly different origin story.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Because there is an imbalance in the representation of different ethnicities in popular media that disproportionately favors white people, and I'm talking about doing something to level out that imbalance. White actors being cast in non-white roles furthers that imbalance. Its a pretty simple concept.

forgive me for not keeping up with everything, but I found something interesting you wrote here that I caught & can respond to.

just because characters in popular media are disproportionally white outnumbering the ones written to be black doesn't mean it's favoritism. it's just that those characters were simply written to be black

you never actually said it in the post, but if you're saying it's important to diffuse these roles and allow more black people in them to proportion things, it's not fair to ignore all the other minority actors as well. and then it becomes a mixed bag if a movie just has characters portrayed by actors of different race for the hell of it - might baffle people, might piss people off, but it shouldn't matter. tiny example - ratha in asm

so it should be that if characters are adapted, they should be adapted as close to their source material as possible - unless there are absolutely 0 characters of different origin, which is why i lobby(ied) for joe morton as gandalf, amitabh bachchan as saruman (and jon foo as voldemort but that's a different story).

and where's that post about relatablility you were mentioning? i'd like to see/read it.

and jjj's ulcer, about wat you were saying for harry potter...

my answer to you for that is gonna be simple. these movies were made from books. and the books had very specific descriptions for ALL the characters. and the movies were not made to tell a different story, they were made to tell the stories of the books as close as possible, a large part of the reason they were so damn successful.

 

[chamber-music]

It's cool to see more Indian actors/actresses in TV shows and movies these days. That I have noticed.

Indian/Pakistani people are the largest ethnic minority in the UK if you watch British TV or Films you see lots of actors from those backgrounds.

Asian men have a long way to go in Hollywood.

Seeing an Asian man as the lead man in a Hollywood film that doesn't involve martial arts is still almost unheard.

You do see more young Asian American guys in comedy roles these days though.

I often wonder if part of the success of the Fast and Furious franchise is down to it being the most multicultural blockbuster series. I think just about every major race is represented in the film, especially the last couple of films.

The multicultural casting for the Fast and the Furious franchise comes from the 'Racer X' Vibe magazine article by Ken Li that the first film was based on. The street races that Li based his article on in NYC as as well as the director Rob Cohen watching street races in LA often involved lots of racers, customizers and gear heads from different backgrounds so they just reflected that.

Besides the first film all the others have been directed by Black and Asian directors which is also another reason why they have such a diverse cast.

 

[jaymes_e06]

So if it were directed by a white director they wouldn't be so diverse???

 

[chamber-music]

Neil Cross creator of Idris Elba's Golden Globe winning Detective Show Luther on casting the role race neutral.

It was cast as a character, purely and simply, which is one of the aspects that attracted Idris to the role. I have no knowledge or expertise or right to try to tackle in some way the experience of being a black man in modern Britain. It would have been an act of tremendous arrogance for me to try to write – and you have to try to imagine the quote marks around the words – a black character because I don’t know what a black character is and we would have ended up with a slightly embarrassed, ignorant, middle-class, white writer’s idea of a black character, which would have been an embarrassment for everybody concerned. I suspect that there’s a dearth of decent roles for black actors because most writers are white and they try to write their idea of black and it’s an embarrassment.

Some roles specifically do require a actor of a certain ethnicity to play the role but there are many that don't as well.

For example John McClane, Jack Bauer, T-800/T-1000, Robocop someone from any background could play those iconic characters really.

 

[chamber-music]

So if it were directed by a white director they wouldn't be so diverse???

Not what I meant. John Singleton and Justin Lin brought along black and Asian actors to the franchise they had worked with before (Tyrease/Sung Kang) who became mainstays of the cast.

 

[Donnie Darko]

What about Michelle Rodriguez and Vin Diesel, both of which are non-white? It's not like F&F was ever an all-white affair, which may be part of the reason that it has always cast such a wide net with its audience.

 

[craigdbfan]

They both have enough white in them that I'm not sure it counts. Michelle Rodriguez doesn't really look Amerindian and Vin doesn't look all that much like a black guy. Both of them lean much closer to their respective European lineage (Spanish for Rodriguez and various Germanic groups for Vin).

They're definitely not WASP but they're racially ambiguous (leaning towards white) enough that there's enough for everybody to identify or relate to with both their characters. Although I'm not sure race is that big of a deal with the F&F franchise. All the characters regardless of race have a very "street" and "urban" flair to them and I'm including the late Paul Walker in there too.

 

[chamber-music]

Vin Diesel's Dominic Toretto is portrayed as being of Italian ancestry in the films.

The diversity in the films was done done to reflect the real life diversity in the street racing scene which inspired the films.

 

[craigdbfan]

I'm aware of that I was just detailing Vin's real life ancestry.

 

[Dr. Evil]

You do see more young Asian American guys in comedy roles these days though.

Kal Penn, Ken Jeong, Aziz Ansari, Kunal Nayar and John Cho, although Cho's been doing a lot more non-comedic work these days.

 

[Warhammer]

Vin Diesel's Dominic Toretto is portrayed as being of Italian ancestry in the films.

The diversity in the films was done done to reflect the real life diversity in the street racing scene which inspired the films.

Italian? Clearly, Dominic Toretto is Hispanic. They pretty much hit you on the head with what his ethnicity is.