World Raimi vs Webb Comparison Thread

[GoldGoblin]

Raimi/Webb

-They kept spidey's mask on (Webb)
-Norman Osborn was a better character (Raimi)
-Harry was a better character (Raimi)
-Gave us JJJ (Raimi)
-Better love interest (Webb)
-Villains looked better (Raimi)
-Spidey's suit is better (Webb)
-Better Aunt May (Raimi)
-Villains had better motives (Raimi)
-Web shooters are cooler (Webb)

 

[Oscorp]

I simply don't feel emotionally invested in any of Raimi's characters. But he tells a more solid story than Webb. With Webb, I care about Gwen and Peter (when Andrew's not overacting), but don't care about the story.

 

[The Joker]

If TASM 2 as released made $1b world wide, fans would have more ammunition to say it's as successful as the days of Raimi.

If TASM2 as released was rated like 90%+ on RT and it made what it did, you could possibly argue franchise fatigue.

$200 domestic release and 53% RT rating, the easiest solution is the quality.

+1 to everything

This franchise is a mess,they can't come out of it now
And God forbid if they make those Sinister Six,Black Cat movies.They will never be able to make another Spider-man film ever,they will go into so much loss
After so much advertisement(Super bowl clip,times square clip and what not) this movie crawled to 200M and got beaten on the second weekend by an R rated comedy(While Guardians is now on top for 4 consecutive weekends)

All this fatigue thingy is just ********.The other CBMs performed so well(1st,2nd and 6th domestically) despite one of them being a completely unknown property and other two never managing more than 500M in their previous movies(This isn't Batman,Superman or Iron Man we are talking about)

Sony is never gonna make another penny out of Spider-man,they will just run this character into the ground even more than they already have.
They should sell him while Disney still considers him worthy to pay for,they might be lucky to get 500M out of that deal.Sony should do that and end it with dignity,3/5 is still a very good record

Rant over!

Exactly gents

The writing is on the wall as they say.

Raimi Spider-Man films: 9/10

Webb Spider-Man films: 3/10

That's just about what I'd give them. The majority of the 3 score would be weighted for Emma Stone.

Raimi/Webb

-They kept spidey's mask on (Webb)
-Norman Osborn was a better character (Raimi)
-Harry was a better character (Raimi)
-Gave us JJJ (Raimi)
-Better love interest (Webb)
-Villains looked better (Raimi)
-Spidey's suit is better (Webb)
-Better Aunt May (Raimi)
-Villains had better motives (Raimi)
-Web shooters are cooler (Webb)

6-4 in favor of Raimi

 

[UltimateWebhead]

I agree with most of this but the last part you mentioned: "The choppy editing, bad pacing, and aimless direction about the films give them little rewatch value." is probably just TASM2, TASM1 was a lot more solid and has more rewatch value.

I actually find the editing to be worse in ASM over ASM2. They gutted the Lizard. Well, I mean they cut out Connors family which basically robs the character of his sympathy. This is a crucial element for Connors. There were a few other weird edits in the film that made me go "wtf?" The most notable one was just after the HS fight when Spidey got thrown into those books and the Lizard bailed. There was a very obvious misstep as we see Peter walking down the hallway unmasked.

The thing about the Webb films is that they have a lot going for them yet they don't feel as complete as the Raimi ones. With Raimi, minus SM3, there's a very strong sense of direction, like you're in a ship sailing from one point to another. Here's your start, there's your end and everything in between lines up just right and guides you on the way. With Webb, the sea is choppy and you just lost your motor. At least that's how I feel about them. It's like Webb and Co don't have a singular unified vision for the story, instead they film multiple angles and then just pick and choose stuff until they hit the 2 hour mark. Or maybe they just pick the "that looks cool" clip and edit it in somehow.

I know it sounds like I'm being harsh against Webb. I still really like ASM and it's my second favorite Spidey movie. It's just that the filmmaking itself kinda goes out the window...bad writing, subpar dialogue (mostly in ASM2, thanks to Orci and Kurtzman probably), and a general lack of focus.

I prefer a movie that captivates me with its story and characters rather than one that just looks like a shiny nickel.

 

[OriginalMiles]

Okay, so this is what I prefer for the characters:

Casting

- Peter: Andrew Garfield
- Aunt May: Sally Field
- Uncle Ben: Martin Sheen
- Norman Osborn: Willem Dafoe
- Harry Osborn: Dane DeHaan
- Gwen Stacy: Bryce Dallas Howard

Characterization

- Peter: Honestly... a mix between Andrew and Tobey.
- Aunt May: Sally Field
- Uncle Ben: Cliff Robertson
- Norman Osborn: Willem Dafoe
- Harry Osborn: James Franco
- Gwen Stacy: Emma Stone

That's all I'm gonna say for now... I don't really feel like posting a full comparison yet.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Sally Field is a good actress but she didn't look like classic Aunt May, she didn't act like her, and it was bad that she had to remind Peter that she was important to him when he kept obsessing over his parents so much. She never felt like Aunt May to me. I liked Sheen's casting but his Uncle Ben barely had a nice moment with Peter because they always seemed to be arguing. He was missing the Uncle Ben warmth that Cliff Robertson had with Tobey. I don't think Uncle Ben would ever show up Peter in front of a girl by telling her he has a photo of her on his computer.

 

[spiderral]

I simply don't feel emotionally invested in any of Raimi's characters. But he tells a more solid story than Webb. With Webb, I care about Gwen and Peter (when Andrew's not overacting), but don't care about the story.

^^ The parts in bold are very true. Are there any specific examples Andrew overacts btw?

I actually find the editing to be worse in ASM over ASM2. They gutted the Lizard. Well, I mean they cut out Connors family which basically robs the character of his sympathy. This is a crucial element for Connors. There were a few other weird edits in the film that made me go "wtf?" The most notable one was just after the HS fight when Spidey got thrown into those books and the Lizard bailed. There was a very obvious misstep as we see Peter walking down the hallway unmasked.

The thing about the Webb films is that they have a lot going for them yet they don't feel as complete as the Raimi ones. With Raimi, minus SM3, there's a very strong sense of direction, like you're in a ship sailing from one point to another. Here's your start, there's your end and everything in between lines up just right and guides you on the way. With Webb, the sea is choppy and you just lost your motor. At least that's how I feel about them. It's like Webb and Co don't have a singular unified vision for the story, instead they film multiple angles and then just pick and choose stuff until they hit the 2 hour mark. Or maybe they just pick the "that looks cool" clip and edit it in somehow.

I know it sounds like I'm being harsh against Webb. I still really like ASM and it's my second favorite Spidey movie. It's just that the filmmaking itself kinda goes out the window...bad writing, subpar dialogue (mostly in ASM2, thanks to Orci and Kurtzman probably), and a general lack of focus.

I prefer a movie that captivates me with its story and characters rather than one that just looks like a shiny nickel.

I know what you mean about Webb just filming and then piecing together a film afterwards. The most notable choppy editing in TASM, to me, was the location of Uncle Ben's death changing, from being in the street to in an alley (in the close-ups) and then back in the street again; that was quite bad.

 

[spiderral]

Sally Field is a good actress but she didn't look like classic Aunt May, she didn't act like her, and it was bad that she had to remind Peter that she was important to him when he kept obsessing over his parents so much. She never felt like Aunt May to me. I liked Sheen's casting but his Uncle Ben barely had a nice moment with Peter because they always seemed to be arguing. He was missing the Uncle Ben warmth that Cliff Robertson had with Tobey. I don't think Uncle Ben would ever show up Peter in front of a girl by telling her he has a photo of her on his computer.

I liked it when Uncle Ben was teasing Peter and telling Gwen he had a picture of her on his computer, I thought it was quite cheeky.
I agree with everything else you've said though; Raimi's Aunt May and Uncle Ben were definitely better in terms of characterisation and cast.

 

[LizardMan07]

Does Peter even mention his Parent's in the Raimi series? I honestly can't remember?

Would anyone have enjoyed the parents storyline more if it concluded with Richard Parker being alive?

 

[The Joker]

Does Peter even mention his Parent's in the Raimi series? I honestly can't remember?

Not really. Not directly.

The parents are such a nonentity in the comics. Only twice I know of in 50+ years of Spidey comics have they been relevant. Once in a Stan Lee story where Peter found out the Red Skull framed them as traitors before they died and he cleared their name.

The second time was in the 90's when Goblin and Chameleon built life like robots of his parents to fool him into thinking they were alive (yes it's as bad as it sounds lol).

Would anyone have enjoyed the parents storyline more if it concluded with Richard Parker being alive?

Given the negative reaction to that deleted scene in TASM 2, I'd say no.

 

[Spidey_62]

Does Peter even mention his Parent's in the Raimi series? I honestly can't remember?

Would anyone have enjoyed the parents storyline more if it concluded with Richard Parker being alive?

His dad was mentioned in the first movie when Peter was arguing with Ben. Ben's importance was very firmly cemented with that one line when the Goblin's trying to trick Peter after he calls his glider: "I have a father, his name was Ben Parker." Love that line!

 

[spidermanJLA!~]

Peter also dismissed his parents when Norman said that they would be proud.

 

[GuestStar2004]

In terms of the aunt mays I won't judge who looks more like their comic counter part as that means very little but I think Sally fields as aunt may was written better (in TASM at least) then aunt may in the Raimi series, because she basically was what I always see aunt may as and that's someone who would over worry about Peter, like he will come back late or she might notice he is hurt and the first thing she does is question what happened and he tell her he is ok but it wouldn't stop her worrying

In the Raimi films she felt to much like the wise old lady who was there to give Peter a speech about life that would guide him which is fine but she was more like a grandmother that he would visit sometimes then someone who raised him

The Peter retuning him with the eggs scene in TASM is the scene that made me realise what I felt was missing from the Raimi films in terms of that relationship

 

[spidermanJLA!~]

In terms of the aunt mays I won't judge who looks more like their comic counter part as that means very little but I think Sally fields as aunt may was written better (in TASM at least) then aunt may in the Raimi series, because she basically was what I always see aunt may as and that's someone who would over worry about Peter, like he will come back late or she might notice he is hurt and the first thing she does is question what happened and he tell her he is ok but it wouldn't stop her worrying

In the Raimi films she felt to much like the wise old lady who was there to give Peter a speech about life that would guide him which is fine but she was more like a grandmother that he would visit sometimes then someone who raised him

The Peter retuning him with the eggs scene in TASM is the scene that made me realise what I felt was missing from the Raimi films in terms of that relationship

I think that Rosemarry Harris nailed the "dear old Aunt May" thing by being more of a grandmother type. They felt like two family members who always looked out for each other. Uncle Ben's death constantly haunted her and she loved Peter more than anything. (Peter cared for her a lot too, as shown in $20 scene)

I also think that she matured over the course of the films and became more independent. She realized that Peter was his own man, both in SM1 and SM2. She was also a bit worrisome, like when she said "I don't like that scooter thing you drive around." She also worries about Peter when he gets "clipped by a bike messenger" in SM1. She felt like a loving guardian and IMO, this was a heightened version of the CB Aunt May. Rosemarry Harris was the "wheatcakes" Aunt May that always took care of Peter.

Sally Field was good too. She was more of a mother type instead of a guardian, as illustrated in the scenes when she made Peter spaghetti or argued about the laundry with him. That's great too, because I love the "My Boy!" scene. You could also tell that Peter obviously loved her.

 

[GuestStar2004]

That's fair enough

For me the over worrying aunt may was what I see as a kid, Peter would come home and aunt may would be all thank god you are home Peter and she would tell him about a news report of spider-man fighting a super villain in a public area which created a lot of destruction and she is so relieved Peter wasn't there and he is home safe and she would ask where he was and course he would lie to protect her

It's The complex situation along with just wanting to protect each other that is the sorta relationship i always see

 

[spidermanJLA!~]

That's fair enough

For me the over worrying aunt may was what I see as a kid, Peter would come home and aunt may would be all thank god you are home Peter and she would tell him about a news report of spider-man fighting a super villain in a public area which created a lot of destruction and she is so relieved Peter wasn't there and he is home safe and she would ask where he was and course he would lie to protect her

It's The complex situation along with just wanting to protect each other that is the sorta relationship i always see

Thanks, and I see what you mean. I'm actually pretty partial when it comes to which is the best series, so I think that both movies took elements from the comic book and shine in their own ways.

As I said, RH feels more like a "wheatcakes" May that loved Peter dearly and took care of him. Her religious side was a nice touch too. SF touched on the constant worry over Peter. She even stays up for him ASM1, twice.

This brings me back to the "My Boy" scene. While in context it's meh, when I watch the scene alone it shows how much May sees Peter as her boy, as her little Peter. She lists all the things she did for him as a little boy and doesn't want to hurt him or have him hurt. She makes him a sandwich and even cleans his laundry!

 

[The Joker]

I think that Rosemarry Harris nailed the "dear old Aunt May" thing by being more of a grandmother type. They felt like two family members who always looked out for each other. Uncle Ben's death constantly haunted her and she loved Peter more than anything. (Peter cared for her a lot too, as shown in $20 scene)

I also think that she matured over the course of the films and became more independent. She realized that Peter was his own man, both in SM1 and SM2. She was also a bit worrisome, like when she said "I don't like that scooter thing you drive around." She also worries about Peter when he gets "clipped by a bike messenger" in SM1. She felt like a loving guardian and IMO, this was a heightened version of the CB Aunt May. Rosemarry Harris was the "wheatcakes" Aunt May that always took care of Peter.

Exactly.

I love that scene with the $20 where she breaks down crying about how much she misses Ben. Supreme acting from Harris there, and my personal favorite Aunt May scene of the series.

Harris embodied everything that made Aunt May such a great character. Field has yet to reach those heights. The only scene she's had that has any kind of emotional strength to it is when she has to verbally slap Peter for being so wrapped up in his parents and remind him who's been his real mother all his life (something Aunt May would never have to do in the comics because Peter would never cause her to feel this way).

Whereas Sheen's Uncle Ben just leaves me cold.

 

[Puny Parker]

Well - when I watched ASM2, I thought it was the greatest comic book film... I was hyped... I was wrong, I begun hating SM2 around that time, then I rewatched SM2, loved it - rewatched it again, thought it's brilliant, rewatched bits of the film again and it's my favourite comic book film - ever.

Spider-Man 2 IS the definitive Spider-Man film - because they nailed pretty much everything that matters to nail and it's near flawless. As a huge Spidey fan - I love SM2 because it depicted the price of being a hero, the consequences of being Spidey - it's the simple stuff, being somewhere at eight O'clock, holding together a relationship with a friend, unable to deliver a pizza at a specific time etc. etc. That's primarily why it's my favourite Spidey film. Primarily.

Then there's Doc Ock - he's a wonderful antagonist - whenever he was brought on screen, he WAS Doc Ock, torn straight from the comic books. Although, in the comics, Doc Ock was a jerk before his abilities, and in the film he's sympathetic - he was still torn from the comic books when he became a criminal - I completely loved watching Ock build his project in the warehouse. Molina also nailed it.

The Peter Parker/Mary Jane Watson dynamic and relationship in this film is the best relationship out of all Spidey films - I don't like MJ a good deal, but the relationship is entertaining the watch - PP/MJ's relationship in Spidey 2 is the relationship of the comics brought onto the screen. The relationship issues I've come to recognise from the character.

Now - I could ramble more, and I LOVE ASM1 and ASM2 - but it's SM2 for me by a long shot - I respect the merits brought from both series' - I'd defend them to death but I'll also critique for flaws.

So - if SM2 never existed, it'd easily be the ASM films because SM1 is fine, and SM3 is awful... but SM2 redeems the entire series.

 

[LizardMan07]

Not really. Not directly.

The parents are such a nonentity in the comics. Only twice I know of in 50+ years of Spidey comics have they been relevant. Once in a Stan Lee story where Peter found out the Red Skull framed them as traitors before they died and he cleared their name.

The second time was in the 90's when Goblin and Chameleon built life like robots of his parents to fool him into thinking they were alive (yes it's as bad as it sounds lol).

Hmm, I'm not sure why Webb went the parents arc, I mean, its not too bad a concept in principle, but it ended up taking up a lot of screentime from other characters. To put it into perspective, I'm almost 100% Richard Parker ended up getting more screentime than Ben Parker. I'm basically repeating what you've been saying for months, but you really can't do that. I don't have a problem fundamentally with Peter's Parents, but the weight they have on Peter seems a little, un-Spider-Man like.

I think the problem the reboot series faces is we got pretty authentic characterisations in the Raimi series. I mean, most are close to comic accurate, or at least try to maintain the essence of the character.

I think, in Webb's attempt to differentiate the reboot from the Raimi series, he's decided to change the characters a bit, which is fine, but he's gone too far sometimes and lost the essence of some of the characters. (The Osborns, for example) I think that's probably more erroneous than just copying Raimi's characters. Its not that the ASM series characters are BAD persay, they're just not as Spider-Many as Raimi's, at points at least. Some TASM characers I'd say are better than Raimi's, namely Gwen, Dr Connors as well. Even Spider-Man feels more natural in the ASM series.

As a whole, the parents were an out, as they allowed Webb to basically do anything he wanted with them, as you said, they're a non entity in the comics. That'd be fine if the buildup lead to something greater.

The problem is the reason the comics focus on particular characters more than others is those characters shape Peter. You lose that if you focus on insignificant characters, as they cut away the time Peter can grow with more important people. Say, Uncle Ben or even Norman Osborn.

ASM is fine as a movie, and even as a spider-man movie, but it loses out on the supporting characters sans Gwen and Aunt may, which is a huge shame really, but kind of unavoidable due to the nature of the remakes.

Given the negative reaction to that deleted scene in TASM 2, I'd say no.

I know I thought it was odd, but at least it was some conclusion. Better than deus ex calculator at least.

Not often a two film subplot concludes and leaves audiences asking why the heck it was even in there. Odd times for sure.

Worst part is the ship has sailed for a lot of these problems. Going to be hard to pull things back if that's what they're going for!

 

[UltimateWebhead]

Hmm, I'm not sure why Webb went the parents arc, I mean, its not too bad a concept in principle, but it ended up taking up a lot of screentime from other characters.

Cause they needed to be different.

Had they executed the idea without it being boring, without it taking away from important characters like Uncle Ben, and without drawing so much dang screen time, then yes, it was an interesting idea. But they botched it. Hardcore.

There wasn't any creativity in the process, no real plan of how to execute this particular subplot/story. As a result it ends up looking like they're just trying to be different for the sake of being different. And I just can't let it go how much this has taken away from one of the, if not the most important person in Peter's life, Uncle Ben.

 

[GuestStar2004]

I think its the fans who are getting insecure about the parents story getting in the way of bens role as no matter how you look at it Bens death is what drove Peter to become spider-man, and just because the film shows him thinking about his parents doesn't take anything away from the impact Ben had and I don't think he needs to be thinking about Ben 24/7 in order for him to have had a huge impact on everything that's happening

And I understand why they went the parents mystery because it gave the reboot a new direction that you could place the origin on top of and keep it fresh, but it seems like this was always gonna be hard to do since if you lightly touch on the parents story then fans and critics will complain that it gave us nothing new and if you touch on it alot fans take that as the parents being way too important when they shouldn't be

The parents story I assume has been explored in the comics and I remember seing episodes about it in the 90s cartoon and for the film series it is something that was never looked at, no one knows why Peter lived with his aunt and uncle

 

[UltimateWebhead]

I think its the fans who are getting insecure about the parents story getting in the way of bens role as no matter how you look at it Bens death is what drove Peter to become spider-man, and just because the film shows him thinking about his parents doesn't take anything away from the impact Ben had and I don't think he needs to be thinking about Ben 24/7 in order for him to have had a huge impact on everything that's happening

And I understand why they went the parents mystery because it gave the reboot a new direction that you could place the origin on top of and keep it fresh, but it seems like this was always gonna be hard to do since if you lightly touch on the parents story then fans and critics will complain that it gave us nothing new and if you touch on it alot fans take that as the parents being way too important when they shouldn't be

The parents story I assume has been explored in the comics and I remember seing episodes about it in the 90s cartoon and for the film series it is something that was never looked at, no one knows why Peter lived with his aunt and uncle

The problem with the parents story is that it takes away from the importance of Ben's legacy. It didn't have to, but it did. They still could have introduced his parents and shown how Peter came to live with his Aunt and Uncle and also showed what happened to his parents without them becoming the main focus. Instead they dropped Ben almost completely out of the picture.

I'm all for certain changes to occur within an adaptation. There's nothing wrong with that. However, when the changes that do occur end up robbing certain characters of their core essence and/or characteristics, that's when I take an issue with the changes.

The other problem with the parents storyline here, is that it didn't do anything interesting with them. I saw the 'hidden train car reveal video' coming from a mile away. There was nothing about that particular storyline that was refreshing or inventive or creative. It was more like, "ok pick one from column A, now one from column B," etc.

Also the fact that they filmed a scene where Richard was alive. Gave Richard the GPwGR line, suggests that was the plan for the movie at one point. That takes Ben completely out of Peter's life. Like, completely out. Gone. It ruins the part where Ben was the reason he took up the mantle in the first place. Does this count as a retcon?? Cause it sure smells like one. And it wasn't a good idea, at all. I'm glad they decided not to use it but the fact that they had that intention at some point in the process, is very unsettling to me.

 

[GuestStar2004]

i still don't think it changes anything, in the end if ben didn't die he wouldn't be spider-man he would going about his life with super powers, it was looking for his killer that made peter go out there and create spider-man

i don't think we didn't need uncle ben at all in the sequel, nor did we need a scene of peter thinking about uncle ben (even though i swear someone said they filmed scenes of peter thinking things through at uncle bens and capt staceys grave after gwens death) it would have been nice to see the poster from TASM to show he hasn't forgotten about it

and while i don't believe his dad turning up at the end would change anything the only thing about it that would bother me if him saying the "with great power" line and not because he is the one that says it since even in the comic i believe uncle ben wasn't the one that said it either but what would bother me is that they already gave the responsibility speech in tasm and while it wasn't as simple as "with great power" anyone with a brain could understand what it mean't and it wasn't far off from what was said in the ultimates i believe, so if they put the "with great power" line in it would feel like thought the audience were just to stupid to accept anything but that line

but yeah i don't see the parents stuff as an issue, its an emotional point for peter since he was abandoned by his mum and dad and has never known why, and his dad coming back at the end... i still suspect norman was gonna kill him in the next one anyway since there is no way he is staying alive

 

[W/ Great Power]

I think Raimi was at the cusp of greatness until he was dealt the wrong cards. But I'll make a genuine comparison at the end of TASM3, since that will be Webb's last Spidey film.

I had almost no complaints with TASM1 but still enjoyed TASM2 more despite the few complaints I had, oddly enough. At the same time, however, I think TASM3 will be make or break for Webb, and that's the reason I believe he will (or he should, at least) give his best shot for that film.

 

[LizardMan07]

If Drew Goddard does an exceptionally good job with S6 I could see him being involved with TASM3 in one way or another