Justice League Real Talk - Where does the DCEU go from here? - Part 2

[Skrilla31]

Here's the most important thing I hope they keep in mind. The DC superheroes aren't edgy. They're simple and they're old fashioned. They're theatrical. They're corny.

There is nothing wrong with this. Embrace it, accept it.

To approach this material from a cynical perspective, like the recent movies have done, is to betray the essence of what these characters are. They have names like Superman and Wonder Woman. They have bright, colorful costumes. They have power rings and magic lassos. They inhabit fictional cities like Gotham and Metropolis. They operate in the 'Hall of Justice'. They fight bad guys named Brainiac and Darkseid.

These movies should be aiming for something as close to an Alex Ross aesthetic as possible.

 

[writer0327]

Here's the most important thing I hope they keep in mind. The DC superheroes aren't edgy. They're simple and they're old fashioned. They're theatrical. They're corny.

There is nothing wrong with this. Embrace it, accept it.

To approach this material from a cynical perspective, like the recent movies have done, is to betray the essence of what these characters are. They have names like Superman and Wonder Woman. They have bright, colorful costumes. They have power rings and magic lassos. They inhabit fictional cities like Gotham and Metropolis. They operate in the 'Hall of Justice'. They fight bad guys named Brainiac and Darkseid.

These movies should be aiming for something as close to an Alex Ross aesthetic as possible.

I agree with this, but I'd add that all superheroes are born from "corniness". Costumed vigilantes with magical powers. This is all fantasy stuff, children's stories.

I think DC has yet to embrace their characters as they are. Marvel certainly has, for all its worth. They are unashamed of their characters and have tremendous confidence in their stories. DC seems to be hellbent of "reinvention" and "reimagining" instead of just telling us the stories and giving us the characters as they are.

 

[Skrilla31]

I agree with this, but I'd add that all superheroes are born from "corniness". Costumed vigilantes with magical powers. This is all fantasy stuff, children's stories.

I think DC has yet to embrace their characters as they are. Marvel certainly has, for all its worth. They are unashamed of their characters and have tremendous confidence in their stories. DC seems to be hellbent of "reinvention" and "reimagining" instead of just telling us the stories and giving us the characters as they are.

True but Marvel was always the 'edgier' brand.

The Pepsi to DC's Coke.

 

[DeadlyDiarrhea]

You can tell a serious story without being edgy, while also not being corny. Nolan did this excellently with his trilogy, and Logan is also an excellent example of what can be done with this genre. Those films succeeded while BvS failed.

 

[Rorschach2012]

"Technically"? How about adding "actually" and "indisputably"?) Kurt was not a good guitarist. The three men who are Rush are better than all of the guys in Nirvana or Foo Fighters (and Dave will have no problem tell you that). Rush has probably inspired more musicians to pick up the bass guitar or a pair of sticks than any other rock band.

Raw talent>technical skill

Nirvana was the definitive band of an entire decade

 

[metaphysician]

Cameron's criticisms of WW wasn't headline news to anyone beyond the walls of geekdom.

Go out in the street and ask 10 people if they know who Patty Jenkins is.

This is kind of irrelevant, because the general audience doesn't need to know Patty Jenkins' name beforehand. They'd know it just fine after, thanks to the bajillion "WB fired the director who made Wonder Woman a success" articles that would hit the media. And whether they were attached to Jenkins or not beforehand, you'd sure as hell get a backlash after.

 

[C Prometheus]

I pretty much agree with everything you're saying. While Gadot and Reeve may not technically be as good at acting, they're still just as perfect for their roles.

It's like Nirvana vs Rush. Kurt Cobain was technically worse at his instrument than the guys in Rush, but he made way more of an impact, and was honestly way better despite playing far simpler music.

I'm not saying Gadot and Reeve made more of an impact than RDJ and Jackman, just saying that technical skill isn't everything when it comes to playing a superhero or playing rock n' roll.

I get the metaphor you're trying to go with here, but the amount of impact Rush and Nirvana have had on the music industry is actually pretty close in regards to sale numbers. Nirvana is the 80th greatest selling band in the US according to the RIAA, while Rush is the 86th.

Nirvana might have the bigger influence on popular bands today, but that's only because Nirvana was a more recent band than Rush and because grunge as a genre played a bigger part in shaping contemporary rock than progressive rock did. That's got more to do with time than anything else.

As for acting, I'd say Reeve wasn't actually a bad actor. At least not in Donner's original Superman film. Take this scene, for instance.

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Reeve completely sells the idea that Superman can disguise himself as Clark Kent by just putting on a pair of glasses due to how he changes his voice and body stature. He just feels like a different person altogether. But suddenly he straightens himself up, removes the glasses and boom- he's Superman.

That kind of acting takes at least some level of natural talent. Whether Reeve's career was worth much of anything beyond playing Superman is a whole other debate. But the man could certainly act.

 

[Flemm]

This is kind of irrelevant, because the general audience doesn't need to know Patty Jenkins' name beforehand. They'd know it just fine after, thanks to the bajillion "WB fired the director who made Wonder Woman a success" articles that would hit the media. And whether they were attached to Jenkins or not beforehand, you'd sure as hell get a backlash after.

Also, "ask 10 random people in the street" has never been a good test for anything, really.

The audience for these movies isn't random. Look at how close the Marvel movies released this year are to one another at the box office.

Wonder Woman's Friday opening was almost identical to Justice League's.

But WW rode a remarkable wave of positive buzz and word-of-mouth, breaking records regularly throughout its run. Many of those were associated with the film having a female director.

The more "dialed in" segment of the audience, that absolutely plays a role in driving word-of-mouth and buzz for these movies, is very attached to Jenkins' involvement in the whole thing, much moreso than usual for these movies.

Critics and basically anyone who follows the film industry are aware of what Jenkins accomplished by making a wildy successful movie of this type (very unusual for a female director, basically unprecedented).

So, unless she herself did not want to be involved, or there were some other compelling reason, changing directors was never going to make sense or be a realistic option.

 

[2kt09]

As for acting, I'd say Reeve wasn't actually a bad actor. At least not in Donner's original Superman film. Take this scene, for instance.

[YT]BIaF0QKtY0c[/YT]

Reeve completely sells the idea that Superman can disguise himself as Clark Kent by just putting on a pair of glasses due to how he changes his voice and body stature. He just feels like a different person altogether. But suddenly he straightens himself up, removes the glasses and boom- he's Superman.

That kind of acting takes at least some level of natural talent. Whether Reeve's career was worth much of anything beyond playing Superman is a whole other debate. But the man could certainly act.

I might need another clip for comparison. In this one it genuinely does seem like he's overacting to sell the opposite of who he is like a jock mockingly imitating a nerd or, 4 years later, Harrison Ford in Blade Runner, you know the scene.

 

[Vaibow]

That's the thing tho, clark himself isn't an actor, no more than you or i, so therefor his 'bumbling' clark to some people is obviously an act - for the time, trends, climate, it worked in that movie - could the same clark get away with acting like that now? Anyone with half a brain would be like 'is he for real'.
The clark at the planet should be low key, shy, avoid eye contact, slight change in voice - stammer or pitch just as the same goes for superman - he should be the opposite - confident, proud, straight down the middle, no messing. Clark on the farm, the real person.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Better than acting exactly the same as Clark and Superman and nobody recognizing the difference between them because glasses. That's what Clark was in BvS.

 

[The Batman]

Jesus Christ, people are still pushing the idea that Gadot is in the same class as Reeve, a Juilliard trained actor.

Better than acting exactly the same as Clark and Superman and nobody recognizing the difference between them because glasses. That's what Clark was in BvS.

Its cool to trash the Reeve take on the disguise, but I've yet to see fanboys or filmmakers come up with a better alternative. That Snyder pretty much avoided the issue entirely says it all.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

They could've just used the "molecules being shifted at superspeed so people don't recognize Clark" method. It would've worked for this universe. Perhaps show a reaction shot of Clark as people see him and he looks different.

 

[Wheels]

Reeve's Clark is just fine for those movise. You'd have to update his Clark persona for it to work now. You can still make him clumsy and meek but he can't feel like a man from a different time.

 

[Val_Zod]

I say just forget trying to rationalize Superman's secret identity. Skrilla31 makes a good point that the DC universe is inherently silly, and instead of downplaying that, embrace it. If the movie's entertaining, audiences aren't going to get so hung up over Superman's secret identity being weak.

 

[Captain Marvel]

What they need is Flashpoint. They need to work it in such a way that the Snyder movies and Suicide Squad are erased from the timeline, while keeping Wonder Woman and Aquaman intact. Then they could introduce a new Superman with a new actor (Sorry, Cavill), a younger Batman who's early in his career rather than ready to retire by the time the Justice League is founded, and a Flash who was already working as a forensic scientist before gaining his powers. Flashpoint could be the DCEU's Captain America: Civil War. A movie which brings together many of the major film universe players, but which is quintessentially a Flash story.

And let's be honest: who WOULDN'T want to see Jeffrey Dean Morgan as Thomas Wayne, the Flashpoint Batman?

 

[DACrowe]

Downey is a great actor, though as much as I love him and his work in the MCU, I feel like the original Iron Man and Civil War are the only times he’s displayed “great” acting since otherwise the role is mostly suited to fit him (maybe IM3, too).

I agree with this. An example of my problem about MCU formula. I was just commenting he is a great actor. Christian Bale is as well, although some are less enamored with his Batman as they are with Downey as Stark or Jackman as Logan. With that said, I also love Bale as Batman.

 

[Deck Rickard]

What they need is Flashpoint. They need to work it in such a way that the Snyder movies and Suicide Squad are erased from the timeline, while keeping Wonder Woman and Aquaman intact. Then they could introduce a new Superman with a new actor (Sorry, Cavill), a younger Batman who's early in his career rather than ready to retire by the time the Justice League is founded, and a Flash who was already working as a forensic scientist before gaining his powers. Flashpoint could be the DCEU's Captain America: Civil War. A movie which brings together many of the major film universe players, but which is quintessentially a Flash story.

And let's be honest: who WOULDN'T want to see Jeffrey Dean Morgan as Thomas Wayne, the Flashpoint Batman?

Me. I wouldn’t. Because after suffering through a season and a half of The Walking Dead with Jeffrey Dean Morgan and his jello spine, I don’t need to see him in anything else for a long time. And before someone says, “He won’t act like Negan”, I’d say go watch the trailer for Rampage. He appears to be permanently stuck in Negan mode. Hell, his Comedian in Watchmen isn’t that different from Negan either. If we were to see him as an unhinged, murderous Batman, my guess is, we’d get Negan with a heart of gold.

 

[DACrowe]

Jesus Christ, people are still pushing the idea that Gadot is in the same class as Reeve, a Juilliard trained actor.



Its cool to trash the Reeve take on the disguise, but I've yet to see fanboys or filmmakers come up with a better alternative. That Snyder pretty much avoided the issue entirely says it all.

Please tell me what are your favorite Christopher Reeve performances outside of him playing Superman? You know the ones that really show off his range.

Also unrelated, I love what Reeve did with the disguise.

 

[spider-neil]

I always saw Marvel and DC like this;
Marvel - Relatable heroes
DC - Inspirational heroes

Marvel's heroes had problems you can relate to or at least understand.
DC's heroes inspired you to do better.
I don't think DC have ever executed their MO with the exception of Woman Woman. When she is climbing out of that trench that was truly inspirational. DC needs more moments like that rather than trying to copy Marvel. If two studios are churning out similar products that will speed up audience superhero fatigue.

 

[blumatic]

Here's what will help the current DCEU without rebooting it.

Start with a really good story and go from there.

That's where DC continues to fail. Even if they followed Marvel's format of solo movies to team up...they would still fail because the stories are horrible.

The Rotten Tomatoes scores reflect the quality of the story. Wonder Woman had a story with complete arc. 92%

Man of Steel started with great narrative but lost it's way . 55%

Batman v Superman. Stupid story 27%
Suicide Squad Dumb Story 26%

Justice League. Empty Story 41%.

They are in "Phase 2" now. They just have to go back to solos and write good stories. It can work.

Slow down the pace of these films. Simplify things a bit.

Snyder directs by cool factor. He likes an idea he throws it in there. Says "Oh wouldn't that be cool" and throws it in there. His films play real nice as YouTube clips but strung together creates an incoherent and lost and empty story.

DCEU can be fixed. Just write something compelling.

 

[Venom'sDad]

They could've just used the "molecules being shifted at superspeed so people don't recognize Clark" method. It would've worked for this universe. Perhaps show a reaction shot of Clark as people see him and he looks different.

Need to do away with Clark being a reporter & working for the Daily Planet. His only connection to the DP needs to be just Perry/Lois. Move on from the secret identity aspect.

 

[Astro13Zombie]

Need to do away with Clark being a reporter & working for the Daily Planet. His only connection to the DP needs to be just Perry/Lois. Move on from the secret identity aspect.

He does need a job though

 

[KevTravels]

are we going to get a Cyborg or Flash film? The Flash should have been produced and released by now

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

I was going to say that a Cyborg movie wouldnt be worth it with all that CG every time Cyborg is on screen...and then I remember that Ex Machina was made for 15 million, District 9 was made for 30 million, etc.

Hopefully WB realizes that not every DC movie has to cost 100-250 million dollars.