Justice League Real Talk - Where does the DCEU go from here? - Part 2

HARD REBOOT!

Clark Kent/Superman = Cillian Murphy (couldn't be Batman, may as well be Supes!)
Lex Luthor = Jim Parsons
Doomsday = Danny Trejo
Brainiac = Stephen Colbert
Lois Lane = Amy Schumer
Jimmy Olsen = Colin Hanks
Perry White = Judd Hirsch
 
I’d still love if they sold the properties. Put them in capable hands, WB has shown they aren’t qualified in the past 4 years.
 
Assuming Aquaman and the new Batman movies are good and easily divorced from the Snyder movies, then I think the only thing they can do is to retcon the Snyder movies out of the universe. Then basically start fresh with Batman, Superman, and Flash. Introduce a new Batman who's early in his career rather than at the end of it with a new actor. Introduce a new Superman in the classic costume (Red trunks and all) who's hopeful, optimistic, and loves what he does, rather than one who's dour, lacking in empathy, and willing to kill. And either keeping the same actor or using a new one, rewrite the Flash so that he's a forensic scientist before he got his powers and has a costume closer to his classic look (And isn't an armored suit. He's the Flash, not Iron Man).

Do all that, along with a proper Green Lantern movie, while continuing what're hopefully successful Wonder Woman and Aquaman franchises, and THEN make another Justice League movie. And the perfect avenue to do this will be the planned Flashpoint movie. Have the end result of that be a change in the timeline so that Man of Steel, Batman V Superman, and Justice League are erased from the timeline, while keeping Wonder Woman (Which occurs way before the Flashpoint) and Aquaman as they are.

And they wouldn't even have to wait for Flashpoint to come out. Just get started on treating all their movies as being part of the new corrected timeline, then explain it away afterwards with Flashpoint. "You want to know why Bruce Wayne is a younger man who's never met the Justice League in the modern day? Watch the upcoming Flashpoint movie. You want to know why a new actor is playing Superman and why Superman's costume and personality are so different? Watch the upcoming Flashpoint movie." And so on.

That, I think, is the best solution so that they can keep the good while throwing out all the bad. The general audience, I believe, is more than willing to see Superman and Batman rebooted and for Cavill and Affleck to be cut loose, but I don't think they want to say goodbye to Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman. And if Momoa's Aquaman movie is good, they won't want to say goodbye to him, either. So retcon out the bad parts and reboot those elements, without erasing the entire universe.
 
Clark Kent is not the alter ego. Superman is.

He was Clark Kent first. From when he was a baby. He grew up on a Kansas farm, lived as an ordinary human being, and experienced ordinary human experiences.

He’s a well brought up American man, who also just happens to be a Demi-god. He doesn’t save people because he thinks he has too. He isn’t burdened by his power. He saves people because he wants to. Because it’s how he was raised.

I’m very much hoping that at some point a film maker will remember this, because you make Superman more relevant, more interesting, and more compelling with more Clark Kent. Not less.

I agree with M1ll3r, great post.

One way they could do it , assuming they reboot it ,is for their to be three personas , much like Bale's Wayne had three personas.

There's Clark, the guy from raised in Smallville who the Kent's Lana, and Pete know,basically who Clark/Kal El really is ,

There's Clark Kent's journalist Persona at the DP and in Metropolis. His image to Lois, Perry, Jimmy , Lex and the rest of the press.

There's the Superman's Persona. The image he gives to Metropolis and the world.

It's so reductive.

Most of this, but in particular the "Clark Kent is who I am, Superman is what I can do" thing (to summarise it), totally misses (and alters) the point of the character. It waters him down ala John Byrne and his "Marvelization" reboot of him in '86-- which, while full of great art and a bunch of fun, surprisingly well-interconnected, overarching stories-- has contributed to muddling him and his audience. It's done more long term damage than good.

The most important aspect of Superman is his Krypton brain. He's raised and nurtured by the Kents, yes. He has their idealised Midwestern values, yes. But he does not process them like a normal American man-- He processes them like a Kryptonian. He sees and hears MUCH more than any human ever will, from little microscopic things only he can see, to macro scale things only he can comprehend. This all combines makes him totally unique among both other Kryptonians and humanity-- He's the perfect mix of both.

This is the character as he was over his natural development from '38-'86. He quite naturally evolved from the rough and tumble social crusader to the epic space adventurer of truth and justice. From stopping crooked landlords and politicians who were trying to always beating down the average joe for their own gain... to handling them on the side while him main missions were battling nefarious inter-dimensional space tyrants who would enslave the innocent for their own power. All with, again, his unique perspective.

Where the relatable thing comes in is his emotions-- He still has them. Of course he still has them. Happiness, sadness. Everything in between. He's happy talking to Ma and Pa, Lois and Jimmy, Supergirl, the man on the street. He loves them, they love him.

He's lonely because in-spite of all that, there's a separation there... Deep down, they cant quite relate on some fundamental levels. Ma, Pa, Lois and Jimmy are human-- they don't relate to his Kryptonian experiences. He doesn't blame them. How could they? Supergirl is a Kryptonian, raised by Kryptonians on Krypton. Time with her can satisfy that side of him, but they're very different people. But she doesn't necessarily understand his human side... How could she?

We've all got stuff like that. I'm not the exact same person as when I'm talking to my mother or nephew as I am when I go out on the town with my friends. Those different people satisfy the different parts of me.

As for "farm Clark", well, he doesn't exist. Not in the way you guys are intimating, and not in the way Bruce has those three distinct personas. "Farm Clark" is Superman, in plainer clothes and able to express his private hopes and desires and failings and worries to those who care about him. That doesn't make "Public Superman" a fake or a persona, it's just him not bringing his **** to work. Like the rest of us. He's not going to talk about his worries to a random cop after he hands over a burglar. If I've just had a fight with family, I don't tell everyone at work. It's not me being fake, it's me on the job.

Together and apart. Fighting for everyone just the same. That's Superman. And that doesn't even get into the big emotional and practical stuff his Clark Kent disguise has. I say disguise, yes, but he's not totally false. There's a bunch of real stuff he's drawing on there, much of it from his childhood (being considered weird because his powers made him behave somewhat differently, and some couldn't see past it). Whenever he begins to feel slightlydetached from the human perspective, he throws on the glasses to remind himself what it's all about. He also uses Clark to affect change via his writing, which is something he can't otherwise do as because-- Ugh, if I get into Metropolis Clark Kent, this thing's going to be twice as long.

Also keep in mind the original teenage power fantasy of Jerry and Joe. They were often bullied, for being skinny nerds, for being Jewish, for being immigrants. People would ignore them, not give them a chance. They wanted to be able to "rip off their shirts and have everyone see them for the real them underneath". The REAL them... (or at least, what they wished were the real them). Not put on a costume and pretend to be better/different. This also speaks to the "ultimate immigrant" angle.

The Byrne reboot (and the L&C show, and whatever else in that era) turns him into a just a boring "nice man with powers", which are dime a dozen. It ironically fulfills the "boring, vanilla character" complaints of the detractors that they'd be railing against.

Also worth pointing out that it only really lasted until about '03/'04. Since then, each reboot/retcon has brought more and more Pre-Crisis stuff back. So out of an 80 year history, we're talking like '17 or so years where he was foolishly made into it.

EDIT: I honestly never intend for these posts about "Who Superman really is" to become essays, it just happens. There's just SO much to him, I can't believe so many seem to miss it.
 
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Hard reboot new cast:

Superman: John Leguizamo
Batman: Hayden Christensen
Wonder Woman: Kim Kardashian
Aquaman: Hulk Hogan
Cyborg: Jaden Smith
Flash: Michael Cera
Gordon: Danny Devito
Lois: Miley Cyrus
 
I still say they're too deep into it to just abandon the DCEU.
They just need to refocus. The ending of JL, in a manner of speaking,
gave them a fresh new start. They can easily rejuvenate Batman from
being a weathered crime fighter to one who has a new sense of purpose.

The stories for Flash, Cyborg and Aquaman are wide open for, virtually, any
possibility. We now have a fully formed Superman; that's something they can
have fun with. Wonder Woman is, definitely, their ace character right now.

The thing is, WB just needs to create a solid plan and just stick to it.
They need to stop rushing and actually take their time building and reforming
this universe.
 
Reading through some of this thread, this is what I think the mood of DC fans generally tends to be:

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For the record, that is an overreaction IMO. Gal's Wonder Woman is going nowhere, and as long as Patty is directing, she definitely shouldn't either. But yes, focusing on smaller films is in order.
 
As for "farm Clark", well, he doesn't exist. Not in the way you guys are intimating, and not in the way Bruce has those three distinct personas. "Farm Clark" is Superman, in plainer clothes and able to express his private hopes and desires and failings and worries to those who care about him. That doesn't make "Public Superman" a fake or a persona, it's just him not bringing his **** to work. Like the rest of us. He's not going to talk about his worries to a random cop after he hands over a burglar. If I've just had a fight with family, I don't tell everyone at work. It's not me being fake, it's me on the job.


EDIT: I honestly never intend for these posts about "Who Superman really is" to become essays, it just happens. There's just SO much to him, I can't believe so many seem to miss it.

I'm not gonna reply to your whole post because its not relevant to the point i'm trying to make. When I put up three personas , I was talking about an approach they could make for a reboot film not how he's portrayed or been portrayed in comics, films , tv which have all been different .


Yes ,there is so much to him, but filmmakers have to be clear what type of Clark Kent he is in a particular movie. The character has been around for 80 odd years, and their have been several different versions and iterations.

Cain's Clark is not Welling's Clark, who's not Reeves Clark, who's not Delay's Clark. They each differed on which side was the real identity. They all had different personalities on film and tv. There are general qualities they all have in common but one would have to be reaching to say they're all the same.

I wouldn't go so far as to say " Farm Kent" is Superman without his clothes in every version. It certainly wasn't in Lois and Clark . If you want to make a larger case about the way you prefer Superman to be portrayed that's one thing. But Superman, like other heroes has not been portrayed exactly the same way all the time.
 
I'm not gonna reply to your whole post because its not relevant to the point i'm trying to make. When I put up three personas , I was talking about an approach they could make for a reboot film not how he's portrayed or been portrayed in comics, films , tv which have all been different .

They could take that approach for the next version, and it'd be my second choice (next to what I wrote above). I'd be more-or-less fine with that after the DCEU and SR both failed to really define what they were about.

Yes ,there is so much to him, but filmmakers have to be clear what type of Clark Kent he is in a particular movie. The character has been around for 80 odd years, and their have been several different versions and iterations.

Cain's Clark is not Welling's Clark, who's not Reeves Clark, who's not Delay's Clark. They each differed on which side was the real identity. They all had different personalities on film and tv. There are general qualities they all have in common but one would have to be reaching to say they're all the same.

I wouldn't go so far as to say " Farm Kent" is Superman without his clothes in every version. It certainly wasn't in Lois and Clark . If you want to make a larger case about the way you prefer Superman to be portrayed that's one thing. But Superman, like other heroes has not been portrayed exactly the same way all the time.

There are certainly differences in every interpretation (Reeves vs Reeve) but they follow the natural evolution of the character over time, reflecting the real world-- Reeves mirroring the rough and tumble man's man of the 40's, Reeve being a more sensitive 70's. Natural evolution.

The versions going around in the 90's (which I briefly made mention of above) are post-Byrne aka post-deliberate altering of what he's all about in the name of (a misunderstood) attempt at furthering his relatability, which contributed to the muddling of the waters.

Those relatively recent things... I consider them (while they have their swag of good points of course) no where near as key to the character as the first 50 years (and a bunch of subsequent stuff as they've been slowly trying to undo some of the damage they've done).

EDIT: I will say this, though-- the '86 onwards years have been very good for the supporting cast. They've built them out nicely.
 
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I'm just gonna voice one concern I have about WW2. The script writer is Dave Callaham, who doesn't exactly have the greatest track record; he's only got Expendables 1 and 2, both of which were criticized for their stories (or the lack thereof), and Godzilla (not exactly impressive storytelling) under his belt.

I don't know, I hope things play out okay but his presence doesn't inspire the greatest confidence.
 
As a DC fanboy it sucks to say, but I can't get excited for anymore of this extended universe. Need to reboot everything. Actors, directors, the people making the decisions. Everything!

I concur. Time to initiate the Clean Slate Protocol.

Salvage Gal Gadot if you can but if you cannot then it all goes as far as I'm concerned and as much as it would hurt to lose her.

Just nuke it all.
 
I'm curious why many of you want to nuke the whole thing. The only thing that's been clear to me is that the DCEU was and is not working in the hands of Snyder. Now that he's been pushed out, I was excited to see these characters under the direction of other people. The cast is not the problem, notwithstanding Affleck. But Affleck seems game though, it's just that he witnessed how Joss and WB came in and demanded things that were probably different to what Snyder, Terrio and he imagined the vision to be. Affleck is a producer on JL as well.

So no, I don't want to see a hard reboot done. I am much more in favour of a soft reboot and having new directors inject their takes on the characters. Taika and Patty have proved that this method works wonders.
 
LoL...yeah, gotta eat, take care of his family, & pay the mortgage. :oldrazz:



I think it's time to grow up & move on from that & the glasses. In today's society, that makes no sense & immature. Kids questions why no one know who he is, when he's a hero that is so visible, in today's social media...a God many likes to say.

If DC want to write these stories for film with more maturity & realistically, then they need to move on from this 50's mentality. The character need to evolve...not stay stuck, for tradition sake.

... Zack?
 
I wonder what's coming after Shazam.

I think getting a quality non-Affleck non-Snydery Batman movie out first can really help draw a line in the sand with the Snyder era and help rebrand the universe, even if we see some of the old actors like Gadot return afterwards.
 
I'm curious why many of you want to nuke the whole thing. The only thing that's been clear to me is that the DCEU was and is not working in the hands of Snyder. Now that he's been pushed out, I was excited to see these characters under the direction of other people. The cast is not the problem, notwithstanding Affleck. But Affleck seems game though, it's just that he witnessed how Joss and WB came in and demanded things that were probably different to what Snyder, Terrio and he imagined the vision to be. Affleck is a producer on JL as well.

So no, I don't want to see a hard reboot done. I am much more in favour of a soft reboot and having new directors inject their takes on the characters. Taika and Patty have proved that this method works wonders.

I suspect part of the reason people are looking for the DCEU to be torn down is because they will see some sort of victory in it. People always love to be proven right and there are those who have been looking forward to its demise since March 2016.

It's a very sad way of operating tbh. What they have is salvageable, Warner just need to regain confidence in their original vision while finding someone less polarising to execute it.....because if JL has proven anything, is that any attempt to replicate the MCU tone will be met with derision and ridicule.
 
I suspect part of the reason people are looking for the DCEU to be torn down is because they will see some sort of victory in it. People always love to be proven right and there are those who have been looking forward to its demise since March 2016.

It's a very sad way of operating tbh. What they have is salvageable, Warner just need to regain confidence in their original vision while finding someone less polarising to execute it.....because if JL has proven anything, is that any attempt to replicate the MCU tone will be met with derision and ridicule.

Exactly. If you look at the oft-praised aspect of JL, it has been the characters and their interactions. Which means people actually really like the characters. Doing a hard reboot now would be the stupidest idea ever. It would undo all the hard work put into finding the right cast with the right costumes. It just wouldn't make sense.
 
I wonder what's coming after Shazam.

I think getting a quality non-Affleck non-Snydery Batman movie out first can really help draw a line in the sand with the Snyder era and help rebrand the universe, even if we see some of the old actors like Gadot return afterwards.

The line in the sand started from WW, and will be continued in Aquaman.
 
WB should just sweep JL under the carpet and concentrate on making good stand alone movies. Forget the shared universe until there is actually interest in it again.
 
WB should just sweep JL under the carpet and concentrate on making good stand alone movies. Forget the team-up films until there is actually interest in it again.

Fixed. There's no problem with the shared universe aspect. WW handled it brilliantly, with Wayne's letter and the security guards delivering the photograph. That's the kind of connections/teases the solo films need to help build and maintain the shared universe. That's it. Focus on the solo films first and build to a real Justice League film.
 
I'm curious why many of you want to nuke the whole thing. The only thing that's been clear to me is that the DCEU was and is not working in the hands of Snyder. Now that he's been pushed out, I was excited to see these characters under the direction of other people. The cast is not the problem, notwithstanding Affleck. But Affleck seems game though, it's just that he witnessed how Joss and WB came in and demanded things that were probably different to what Snyder, Terrio and he imagined the vision to be. Affleck is a producer on JL as well.

So no, I don't want to see a hard reboot done. I am much more in favour of a soft reboot and having new directors inject their takes on the characters. Taika and Patty have proved that this method works wonders.

Because there is no structure to any of it. If you wanted to do a shared universe then this has been the absolute worst possible way to start. You're also forgetting about Suicide Squad. Snyders stink is on all of it and they need to completely purge his name from anything DC. No director, no producer, no DP, no nothing. I wouldn't let him anywhere near these things.

Snyder has proven such a cancer to this universe to the point where WW being in JL couldn't even save it.

They had a chance to come back strong after MoS (which I liked) they didn't do it so now it's over. Despite Wonder Woman. You are dealing with a company run by people who chose to secure their own bonuses instead of ensure that a quality film be made. They are pissing on the DC brand and it needs to stop goddammit.

I suspect part of the reason people are looking for the DCEU to be torn down is because they will see some sort of victory in it. People always love to be proven right and there are those who have been looking forward to its demise since March 2016.

It's a very sad way of operating tbh. What they have is salvageable, Warner just need to regain confidence in their original vision while finding someone less polarising to execute it.....because if JL has proven anything, is that any attempt to replicate the MCU tone will be met with derision and ridicule.

You go ahead and keep thinking that man, I can't change the way you see things. There is no salvaging anything, read up on it. The corruption is at the root. No one who worked on MoS/BvS/JL should have anything to do with this universe going forward. Not because I want to see DC fail, I just want to see the current DCEU fail, and it is, so start fresh.
 
It's crazy to think that when Superman '78 and Batman '89 Marvel where absolutely nowhere to be seen. Marvel was making movie bombs like Punisher. Jump forward a couple of decades and Marvel is potentially going to make the biggest 2 part movie EVER and DC will be lucky to break the 600m barrier with all of their A-list heroes. Who saw THAT coming? Succes has to be earned no assumed.
 
Because there is no structure to any of it. If you wanted to do a shared universe then this has been the absolute worst possible way to start. You're also forgetting about Suicide Squad. Snyders stink is on all of it and they need to completely purge his name from anything DC. No director, no producer, no DP, no nothing. I wouldn't let him anywhere near these things.

Snyder has proven such a cancer to this universe to the point where WW being in JL couldn't even save it.

They had a chance to come back strong after MoS (which I liked) they didn't do it so now it's over. Despite Wonder Woman. You are dealing with a company run by people who chose to secure their own bonuses instead of ensure that a quality film be made. They are pissing on the DC brand and it needs to stop goddammit.

I fail to see how Snyder even remotely contributed to Suicide Squad's failure. It's also funny you don't want Snyder anywhere near DC when he made the story for WW together with Patty. The GA also has no idea or cares that he gets producer, DP credit. As long as he is not directing anymore DCEU films, we're in the clear.
 
Also, no structure to it? That's all on WB. Snyder helped create the very first slate of DCEU films, with solo films that would have helped establish and build up the characters. It's WB that has wiped that slate clean and has been throwing stuff at the walls to see what sticks.
 
It's crazy to think that when Superman '78 and Batman '89 Marvel where absolutely nowhere to be seen. Marvel was making movie bombs like Punisher. Jump forward a couple of decades and Marvel is potentially going to make the biggest 2 part movie EVER and DC will be lucky to break the 600m barrier with all of their A-list heroes. Who saw THAT coming? Succes has to be earned no assumed.

It's because Marvel has Feige, a figurehead that loves and knows these characters intimately, and will fight for them. He threatened to quit Marvel Studios after the Disney CEO kept insisting that Civil War not have any of the Avengers in it because it was ballooning the budget. DC needs someone like that. I'd have thought Geoff would have been able to fill that role, but he's been absent.
 

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