Justice League Real Talk - Where does the DCEU go from here? - Part 2

[STARMAN]

I always felt the Clark Kent aspect of the character is where relatability might come from. The idea of having to keep a secret. Pretending to be something you're not. Being adopted. Being an immigrant. Leaving home. Stuff like that.

 

[JohnReese]

Despite having zero proof that this would be the case. And they did it because it worked for Batman. They thought dark and Gritty = $$$$$$$$$. They were wrong.

Absolutely. Snyder and WB remembered the success of Batman and figured it would be a repeat performance. But I do believe they also went with the direction of Superman in that fashion because of the reasons I provided.

We've seen over the years how boy scout characters typically become resented because of how perfect they are. I can't tell you how many comments I've seen on DBZ with people hating how Vegeta never gets his time to shine. The same is true with Superman. Fans and the general public I feel relate more to the broody, flawed, and moody characters than say someone of Superman's character.

 

[Jekecy]

We've seen over the years how boy scout characters typically become resented because of how perfect they are. I can't tell you how many comments I've seen on DBZ with people hating how Vegeta never gets his time to shine. The same is true with Superman. Fans and the general public I feel relate more to the broody, flawed, and moody characters than say someone of Superman's character.

In modern cinema? Who?

It feels like every modern attempt has been intentionally providing the anti-thesis to Donner/Reeve Supes without ever getting feedback from audiences the classical Supes was unwanted.

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

Absolutely. Snyder and WB remembered the success of Batman and figured it would be a repeat performance. But I do believe they also went with the direction of Superman in that fashion because of the reasons I provided.

We've seen over the years how boy scout characters typically become resented because of how perfect they are. I can't tell you how many comments I've seen on DBZ with people hating how Vegeta never gets his time to shine. The same is true with Superman. Fans and the general public I feel relate more to the broody, flawed, and moody characters than say someone of Superman's character.

That's the thing, they should've given him that "Superman character" that you speak of and then put him to the test. Push that character to the limit, get the audience invested. And then, ultimately of course his "boy scout" nature saves the day but by that time you will have put him through so much s**t that the audience will want him to win like only Superman could.

Don't make him a broody guy just because you think people hate boy scouts.

They don't. People dislike how apparently easy things come for Superman so don't go easy on him.

Take the heroic character Aragorn for example, he had every inclination to just take the One Ring and grab all that power for himself. And had Snyder directed the Lord of the Rings I'm sure that's how that would have gone down. But because Aragorn is a heroic, true north type of character he didn't and no one thought he was cheesy or a boy scout or whatever. No one but unrelenting cynics like the one guy WB casually handed the keys to the DCEU.

 

[Superchan]

People bring up how Captain America is proof that the boy scout concept can work. Okay, but Cap works because again as you pointed out with Batman. He's essentially a regular guy with special skills, abilities(though not godlike), and people can essentially relate to him a lot easier and better than an alien with limitless power.

Cap is a walking american flag (literally) and in today's political climate that's an issue, hence why cap 1 was named the 'first avenger' overseas! The test of making Cap work IMO was much harder than making superman work yet despite of that Marvel made the character work and thrive because they didn't shy away from his inspirational good nature like I believe WB have with supes.

But even the widely revered DCAU version (which, before Snyder's was my favorite Superman) had a dark edge to him. In fact, he was at times very militant and no nonsense in the Justice League cartoon especially. He was quite different from Reeve's more "aw shucks" interpretation. So, I think this need to bring edge to Superman has been going on for a long, long time. And even then, Superman's solo animated series was nowhere near as popular as Batman's when it came out and didn't last too long. Its been a struggle to get this guy to connect with wider audiences who seem to favor heroes like Batman and Spider-man and Iron man.

BTAS was a landmark show, so just because STAS wasn't as popular doesn't mean it wasn't popular and the reason why it didn't last as long was because Timm (who prefers batman to superman) wanted to do Batman beyond instead.
As for Reeve's superman, well I suggest you go watch Donner's superman 1 and 2 and yoú'll realize Reeve's superman wasn't the "aw shucks" silver age superman you think you remember. Reeve's superman was vain, irresponsible and downright cruel throughout the 2 films i.e. NOT PERFECT. Yet he connected with the cynical audience of the 70s because Superman was allowed to be charming and likable....AND he was given dialogue to do so.
I don't think the wider audiences favor Batman, Spiderman or Ironman because if you check the numbers Man of steel opened bigger than BB, ASM and Iron (comparing origin films here) in both the domestic and international markets, which atleast tells me that the audiences want to see a good superman movie but unlike BB or Ironman and to a lesser extent ASM, MOS dropped like a rock in it's subsequent weeks due to it's divisive nature.

So, I do think its a tricky balancing act. Superman's inherent problem is that he is SUPER-man, a guy who is near invulnerable and supposed to be the ultimate altruistic individual. And I think at the core of it all, that was Snyder's ultimate intention, to make Superman relatable, to make him vulnerable physically and emotionally. In a lot of ways, I feel like he gave Superman the Spider-man treatment, made him this guy with the weight of the world on his shoulders and aspire to do the right thing only to be kicked down every time he did. The execution of said intention is, of course, what we debate about these movies, but I think Snyder ultimately was trying to bring this guy down to earth to our level so we can relate and sympathize with him.

Have to disagree with you there, superman's inherent problem is that he's been handled by a studio and a bunch of directors (singer then snyder) who were ashamed of his nature and thus tried to bastardize him into something he isn't and before you say that Singer's superman was the same as donner's I advice you to torture yourself abit and actually watch SR again and you'll realize how mopey, emo, creepy and dialogue challenged superman was in that movie.
Superman was created out of wish fulfillment, to be the dream and the dreamer and when ever someone tries to make him 'relateable' (what ever the hell that means) they end up failing. Superman I believe is meant to be likable not relatable and inorder to do that he can't spend large portions of time in his movies moping and spewing out pieces of dialogue like "no one can stay good in this world", not when Snyder and co. spent alot of time in MOS trying to tell us how Superman is meant to be the embodiment of hope.

I see people all the time saying how superman doesn't work for the modern times but until the day comes when a good superman movie is made and people still don't show up then I will continue to believe that all the character needs is to be handled by someone who actually respects it.

 

[The Guard]

See, the thing is, its not just these Hollywood people who have a problem getting Superman right, it seems like EVERYONE who's tackled Superman within the last few decades, whether via movies, tv, or the comics seem to struggle modernizing the character and finding relevancy to him. We've had a few bright spots here and there, but largely, writers in general seem to have a hard time with this character, not just writing him but also getting a larger audience to care about him. Admittedly, it seems like a tricky balancing act.

Thing is, plenty of writers have done really interesting work with the character...but it doesn't always sell well...because everyone has their sort of narrow perception of what Superman could and should be. I see writers really straddling the Pre-Post Crisis line in the comics these days, and trying to appeal to several generations of super fans, which leads to a Superman that is somewhat homogenous, albeit recognizeable.

What's ironic is that after SUPERMAN RETURNS, a lot of fans were pretty much begging for them to do exactly what they did; a modern, deconstructinist take on Superman that took into account his alien nature, the politics and the burdens of being a superhero, etc.

I think if this version of the character been more likeable (smiles and humor) as a character people would have embraced this version. I really do. We've somewhat seen the proof of that in a fairly shallow, straightforward presentation after his return in JL. A lot of people ate it up, including fans and followers of this franchise.

 

[metaphysician]

Despite having zero proof that this would be the case. And they did it because it worked for Batman. They thought dark and Gritty = $$$$$$$$$. They were wrong.

Maybe the problem is that, the type of people who tend to fill out the industry in Hollywood, are the type to have contempt for the idea of a genuinely good and decent person possessing great power. . .

 

[Rorschach2012]

I'm still mad that they didn't go with John Stewart instead of Cyborg.

 

[The Guard]

The thing is...not so long ago, media and fans DID say they disliked the boy scout Superman.

"Boy scout" was used as a pejorative against the character in more than one article I read while films were in development. It was believed to be a tired, old fashioned trope. I remember a general push for something more along the lines of Nolan's exploration of Batman...deconstruction, politics, psychology, etc.

Careful what you wish for, I guess.

 

[Superchan]

The thing is...not so long ago, media and fans DID say they disliked the boy scout Superman.

"Boy scout" was used as a pejorative against the character in more than one article I read while films were in development. It was believed to be a tired, old fashioned trope. I remember a general push for something more along the lines of Nolan's exploration of Batman...deconstruction, politics, psychology, etc.

Careful what you wish for, I guess.

Boy-scout does not equate to boring, the audience are tired of badly told superman stories. I didn't see anyone complain about the superman we saw in the first 2 episodes of supergirl and that was a 'boyscout' superman nor do I see anyone complaining about the rebirth superman, who is also closer to the 'boyscout' superman. Heck I don't see anyone complaining about JL action's superman who is a classic boyscout superman.
People however complained plenty about SR, MOS and BvS not to mention the N52 superman who was supposed to be conflicted and 'cool'.
At the end of the day whether a boyscout superman or a conflicted superman or something inbetween like STAS people want to see a good portrayal of the character hence why a boyscout captain america and a naive, good natured wonderwoman worked.

 

[Vaibow]

People bring up how Captain America is proof that the boy scout concept can work. Okay, but Cap works because again as you pointed out with Batman. He's essentially a regular guy with special skills, abilities(though not godlike), and people can essentially relate to him a lot easier and better than an alien with limitless power.

Your statement about a wholly good hero depiction can backfire in so many ways. I honestly believe that's why Snyder and WB went with the darker, serious, and more intense Superman because they were afraid that fans and the public overall would hate the boy scout aspect.

I'd argue that this is Clark Kent. He was raised as and is a regular guy - he isn't cocky, maybe as a teenager when he won sports or excelled in something - but who didn't? Walking around Smallville, Clark is just another farm boy. Sure, he had issues growing up, discovering his powers and realizing he was something more - but due to his parents, he stayed grounded. He was raised as one of them, though he isn't.
So naturally he has questions he wants answering, but it doesn't define him. He was never god like at school or college or around Lana or Pete - his family wouldn't allow it.

In metropolis, the disguise should be glasses, tinted when in the light, a scarf, boring, baggy clothes - in the office he should be quiet, a nobody, just there to hand in and complete his assignments - sure he has moments with Jimmy, Lois ands Perry but no more than anyone else at work does. Keep it simple.

He hears danger, realizes he is needed then off he goes to do what anyone would, if they could.

He has the maturity, or i guess naivety to see the world so simply - and to do what is, what he feels, to be right.

You got this normal guy, with an inner belief - hiding his true self from everyone, but at the same time, trying to do good.

 

[writer0327]

I'm reading everything on here, and while I certainly understand and appreciate what everyone's saying about the character of Superman, I'm afraid we're just making way too much out of it than what it needs to be, and this is the same problem with Hollywood. They are trying to create a mystical, mythical Superman that lives up to the reputation of the character instead of just making a good film.

Take the S off his chest just for a second, take away the cape and the curl in the hair. Take away everything, even his powers. Start from there. Humanize him. He's Clark Kent, a guy who was raised on Earth by a farmer and his wife in Smallville. He's a regular dude. He works at the Daily Planet. He loves Lois Lane, he hates criminals and crime, he laughs with Jimmy Olsen, he cries when the people he loves are in pain, especially his family. He has an apartment in Metropolis and he normally pays his rent and other bills on time, but sometimes he's late and gets hit with the $50 late charge. He has to commute to work and sometimes the buses run a little behind, so he's late there too. He likes his boss, but Perry can get on his nerves sometimes. He dreams one day he will settle down and raise a family with 2 kids, a dog and a parakeet. He is just like us.

Don't make him anything outside of that. He's a wholly good guy, a guy just like you and me, with regular flaws and daily problems like everyone else. Now....add all the other stuff back to him, powers and all and what do you have? What would it be like if one of us regular joes were actually a super-powered alien? What would happen if a dangerous criminal mastermind like Lex Luthor, or an evil android super computer like Brainiac, began threatening the peace....and worse. How would Superman handle it? Get away from this "You will give them an ideal to strive for" stuff.... stop preaching to us. Just give us an action film with that Superman doing battle against a worthy foe. Let the audience figure the rest out. It's not that damn hard.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

I do like the grandiosity of framing Supes as this awe-inspiring world savior figure.

But yeah, you have to remember that first and foremost he's just a guy from Kansas, like Peter Parker is a kid from New York, etc. If he doesn't feel like a real guy to begin with, then that savior stuff isn't going to hit as hard.

 

[OzzMosiz]

Very nicely put.

I
Take the S off his chest just for a second, take away the cape and the curl in the hair. Take away everything, even his powers. Start from there. Humanize him. He's Clark Kent, a guy who was raised on Earth by a farmer and his wife in Smallville. He's a regular dude. He works at the Daily Planet. He loves Lois Lane, he hates criminals and crime, he laughs with Jimmy Olsen, he cries when the people he loves are in pain, especially his family. He has an apartment in Metropolis and he normally pays his rent and other bills on time, but sometimes he's late and gets hit with the $50 late charge. He has to commute to work and sometimes the buses run a little behind, so he's late there too. He likes his boss, but Perry can get on his nerves sometimes. He dreams one day he will settle down and raise a family with 2 kids, a dog and a parakeet. He is just like us.

Don't make him anything outside of that. He's a wholly good guy, a guy just like you and me, with regular flaws and daily problems like everyone else. Now....add all the other stuff back to him, powers and all and what do you have? What would it be like if one of us regular joes were actually a super-powered alien? What would happen if a dangerous criminal mastermind like Lex Luthor, or an evil android super computer like Brainiac, began threatening the peace....and worse. How would Superman handle it? Get away from this "You will give them an ideal to strive for" stuff.... stop preaching to us. Just give us an action film with that Superman doing battle against a worthy foe. Let the audience figure the rest out. It's not that damn hard.

 

[parkerpete]

Cap is a walking american flag (literally) and in today's political climate that's an issue, hence why cap 1 was named the 'first avenger' overseas! The test of making Cap work IMO was much harder than making superman work yet despite of that Marvel made the character work and thrive because they didn't shy away from his inspirational good nature like I believe WB have with supes.



BTAS was a landmark show, so just because STAS wasn't as popular doesn't mean it wasn't popular and the reason why it didn't last as long was because Timm (who prefers batman to superman) wanted to do Batman beyond instead.
As for Reeve's superman, well I suggest you go watch Donner's superman 1 and 2 and yoú'll realize Reeve's superman wasn't the "aw shucks" silver age superman you think you remember. Reeve's superman was vain, irresponsible and downright cruel throughout the 2 films i.e. NOT PERFECT. Yet he connected with the cynical audience of the 70s because Superman was allowed to be charming and likable....AND he was given dialogue to do so.
I don't think the wider audiences favor Batman, Spiderman or Ironman because if you check the numbers Man of steel opened bigger than BB, ASM and Iron (comparing origin films here) in both the domestic and international markets, which atleast tells me that the audiences want to see a good superman movie but unlike BB or Ironman and to a lesser extent ASM, MOS dropped like a rock in it's subsequent weeks due to it's divisive nature.





Have to disagree with you there, superman's inherent problem is that he's been handled by a studio and a bunch of directors (singer then snyder) who were ashamed of his nature and thus tried to bastardize him into something he isn't and before you say that Singer's superman was the same as donner's I advice you to torture yourself abit and actually watch SR again and you'll realize how mopey, emo, creepy and dialogue challenged superman was in that movie.
Superman was created out of wish fulfillment, to be the dream and the dreamer and when ever someone tries to make him 'relateable' (what ever the hell that means) they end up failing. Superman I believe is meant to be likable not relatable and inorder to do that he can't spend large portions of time in his movies moping and spewing out pieces of dialogue like "no one can stay good in this world", not when Snyder and co. spent alot of time in MOS trying to tell us how Superman is meant to be the embodiment of hope.

I see people all the time saying how superman doesn't work for the modern times but until the day comes when a good superman movie is made and people still don't show up then I will continue to believe that all the character needs is to be handled by someone who actually respects it.

Agree with all of this. Just look at 'All-Star Superman' by Morrison. That comic took the perfect man and threw him a massive curveball: What does the perfect invincible man do when he finds out he's going to die, that he's mortal after all?

Chris Evans' Cap is a great example because he's a righteous dude who is constantly being challenged by the grey areas of morality that confront him. And while it took 3 movies, by the time Civil War rolls around Cap has become a bit of a grey area himself. But every step feels organic to the character, and you never stop rooting for him because of how well-established he is and seeing all the sacrifices he's made.

Superman is only tough to write if:
A) you're lazy
B) you're only here to *********e over 'Grim n' Gritty' books from the '90's
C) you really just don't like Superman
D) All of he above (Hi Mister Snyder!)

 

[titansupes]

I'm reading everything on here, and while I certainly understand and appreciate what everyone's saying about the character of Superman, I'm afraid we're just making way too much out of it than what it needs to be, and this is the same problem with Hollywood. They are trying to create a mystical, mythical Superman that lives up to the reputation of the character instead of just making a good film.

Take the S off his chest just for a second, take away the cape and the curl in the hair. Take away everything, even his powers. Start from there. Humanize him. He's Clark Kent, a guy who was raised on Earth by a farmer and his wife in Smallville. He's a regular dude. He works at the Daily Planet. He loves Lois Lane, he hates criminals and crime, he laughs with Jimmy Olsen, he cries when the people he loves are in pain, especially his family. He has an apartment in Metropolis and he normally pays his rent and other bills on time, but sometimes he's late and gets hit with the $50 late charge. He has to commute to work and sometimes the buses run a little behind, so he's late there too. He likes his boss, but Perry can get on his nerves sometimes. He dreams one day he will settle down and raise a family with 2 kids, a dog and a parakeet. He is just like us.

Don't make him anything outside of that. He's a wholly good guy, a guy just like you and me, with regular flaws and daily problems like everyone else. Now....add all the other stuff back to him, powers and all and what do you have? What would it be like if one of us regular joes were actually a super-powered alien? What would happen if a dangerous criminal mastermind like Lex Luthor, or an evil android super computer like Brainiac, began threatening the peace....and worse. How would Superman handle it? Get away from this "You will give them an ideal to strive for" stuff.... stop preaching to us. Just give us an action film with that Superman doing battle against a worthy foe. Let the audience figure the rest out. It's not that damn hard.

Now this, the bolded especially... This is how you strip him of almost everything that makes him a great, enduring character and make him very very boring. One of the two biggest mistakes creators have made with him in the last thirty years, the other being "make him an angry god".

 

[honestbharani]

We've somewhat seen the proof of that in a fairly shallow, straightforward presentation after his return in JL. A lot of people ate it up, including fans and followers of this franchise.

And I would argue that the bolded happened, only because MoS happened. I had as many problems with MoS as the next guy, but even as a divisive film, it still accomplished something. It told an origin story which left the hero, at the end of the movie, in his most recognizable form for the GA. That is why I always feel BvS was the issue. This Supes did not need die and then come back the way he did. He could have shown up in BvS being exactly what he was in JL and it would have made so much more sense. Anyways, no point discussing what could've been, I guess.

 

[chamber-music]

I always felt the Clark Kent aspect of the character is where relatability might come from. The idea of having to keep a secret. Pretending to be something you're not. Being adopted. Being an immigrant. Leaving home. Stuff like that.

Agreed. What Synder didn't get is that Clark Kent is what makes Superman relatable. Clark Kent has friends and relationships.

Making Clark Kent/Superman a solitary character who rarely interacted with people that were not his parents or his girlfriend limited the opportunities for the character to have connections with people.

Considering all the Jesus aspects they missed the aspect of what made Jesus relevant as the god that walks among humanity as apposed to the god apart from humanity.

People bring up how Captain America is proof that the boy scout concept can work. Okay, but Cap works because again as you pointed out with Batman. He's essentially a regular guy with special skills, abilities(though not godlike), and people can essentially relate to him a lot easier and better than an alien with limitless power.

Your statement about a wholly good hero depiction can backfire in so many ways. I honestly believe that's why Snyder and WB went with the darker, serious, and more intense Superman because they were afraid that fans and the public overall would hate the boy scout aspect.

Superman having godlike powers is something that is devise. Some folks love that aspect of the character while others despise it and think it makes him too powerful.

Powerful superheroes like Superman and the Flash are often dumbed down to create some sort of jeopardy or peril. The Flash pretty much needs a team of people to tell him what to do in his TV show and often the answer to his problem is to just run faster ("Run Barry Run").

Superman's real weakness is the fact he cares. He has morals, ideals, relationships and they are what make him vulnerable. Some of the best Superman comics and media depictions involve villains exploiting that aspect. Even the current movies recognize this to a certain extent.


Villains took his mother hostage, threatened Lois Lanes life or threatened to destroy his planet/home town or city in BvS, Man of Steel and Superman The Movie, ect. That is what should be the emotional vulnerable and relateable aspect of Superman. The problem was it was poorly executed and did not emotional resonate with much of the audience because they did not give this Superman enough opportunities to vocally emotionally connect with the people and places around him.

Boyscout superheroes can work. What works for Captain America is how he views himself and how he views the world (his ideals/morals).

Steve Rogers in the MCU views himself as 'just a guy from Brooklyn'. He is humble and not preachy. Rogers has ideals and will challenge people or express his point of view when he feels passionately about something but he often doesn't do it from a place of superiority. This why his depiction works and connects with audiences.

Snyder's Superman is unsure of himself, he is mostly isolated from the rest of humanity having been taught to hide who he is by his father and suppress his desire to save people. Snyder felt his Superman needed a character arc across multiple movies to get him to the point of being the comic version of Superman instead of just doing a good depiction and trusting the audience would still identify with the character.

 

[Aurakles]

The Superman in MOS and BVS isn't any less moral or good than other versions, what happens in these films is that he is put to the test. His priority is always, first and foremost to help people, he just doesn't always know the best way to do that.
I think this is a great way to explore Superman, and to make him relatable, most people want to do the right thing, but it's not always clear what the right thing is.
If you had this power, how would you wield it?
In MOS he wants to live a normal life, to have a home, a job, friends, but when people need help, he'll sacrifice that to do what he thinks is right. But he tries to avoid the spotlight, because he fears that his presence could cause more harm to humanity that good.
When Zod arrives, Clark doesn't know whether to surrender to Zod, or to resist, because he's unsure which course of action will best protect people.
In BVS, Luthor tries to use Clarks desire to help people against him. Lex arranges events to try to make Clark think that being Superman is causing more harm than good. The only reason he puts on the cape is to help people, if Clark thought that being Superman was hurting people, he'd stop. This is what happens in BVS, Luthor tests him, tries to break his spirit, and even tries twist his desire to help people, in particular his mother, to make him commit murder.
It's important for Superman to be challenged, to test your ideals to see if they hold up in dire circumstances, it's easy to say "no matter what" but when you are actually in room 101, can you keep your promise?
Clark has moments of doubt, but he in the end he does regain his hope.
I think this is much richer than a story with only a physical threat, I prefer films where the hero's character is tested, the way Batman is tested in the Nolan films, or how Diana questions whether humanity deserves to be saved in WW.

 

[kguillou]

But, again, wouldnt you guys say the problem is larger than Hollywood though? Wouldnt you say that comic book writers have also been struggling for decades with the character in trying to find that sweet spot? Every now and then we get writers that try something new with him and it works but Superman has been struggling it seems in all forms of media to resonate with wider audiences and show why he is #1.

 

[STARMAN]

There's only a handful of professional screenwriters with any background in writing Superman. I would hire one of them. My first choice would be Michael Green. He wrote Logan, Murder on the Orient Express, Blade Runner 2049. He also has some experience with Superman.

 

[GreenKToo]

They have tried the dark, moody, unsure of himself, superman for two films, it didnt work.
Is it surprising that most people preferred what we got of him in jl? ( as little as it was )
People don't want their superman dark, and unsure of himself, at least most of the people don't, you know, the ones who will make or break the B.O.
I'm sure some like this take on superman, but not enough to justify continuing as is.

 

[writer0327]

Now this, the bolded especially... This is how you strip him of almost everything that makes him a great, enduring character and make him very very boring. One of the two biggest mistakes creators have made with him in the last thirty years, the other being "make him an angry god".

My point is you start there, not start and end there. Begin with a relatable Superman, a Clark Kent that is no different than anyone else around you. Then show him leap into action and do the astounding things he does. It's not the character that's boring, it's the writing.

Writers and directors have been trying to live up to some impossible standard that they believe has been established, and as such, have ruined a lot of good opportunities. To me, the best stories about the character are the simplest. Make Superman first, humanize him, show him as a hero. Then you can get to all the deep, existential stuff in the sequel.

 

[The Guard]

It's a perception that Superman is boring...and that comes in part because most heroes, in some fashion or another, were inspired by his core character elements (powers, the mission, the secret identity, etc), so now he himself seems somewhat generic in comparison.

The filmmakers were right to challenge the status quo...there's a balance that needs to be struck between the god and the man, and the man has to be accessible, and likeable.

I don't buy the "it works for Cap, so it works period" argument. I would imagine that most people don't like Captain America chiefly because he's wholesome, and in fact most of the time, his wholesome elements are the punchline to a joke in his films. They like him because he's likeable and a badass. If the take on film Captain America was more silent and stoic and all business, and he had his wholesome values, I'd wager people probably wouldn't like the character as much as they do.

 

[kguillou]

Captain America is also a soldier so he has a lot more leeway in terms of how he deals with foes than Superman would which is one of the larger complaints about this character.