Justice League Real Talk - Where does the DCEU go from here? - Part 2

I think so many directors overthink it. It really shouldn't be that hard to make Superman compelling. Superman Returns leaned far too heavily on nostalgia and was extremely boring, so that caused people to decry that the classic Supes was not fit for modern audiences. Then WB went way too far in the other direction with the DCEU version of Superman and that wasn't particularly well received either.

The problem is both examples played on extremes. It really shouldn't be that difficult to try and reimagine Superman in a more modern and layered context while also making sure the audience finds him likable and can invest in him as a character.
 
Because Superman as a character is difficult to write. He’s more or less omnipotent, so placing him in situations of genuine conflict or peril can be difficult to do in a relatable way for the audience. He is also deep down a pure heroic character, with a strong moral compass. This isn’t easy to write for either.

However, it can be done - and has been in many comic book stories, and arguably Donner’s film. The mistake WB keep making is to bring in people who don’t really understand what makes Superman work to make movies about him.

Exactly. As an aside, it legitimately bothers me that people assume you want a Reeve Superman redux just because he's the only light fun Superman people choose to acknowledge the existence of.
 
The screenwriters have the wrong mentality over the years. They're so focused on treating Superman as a God and God's POV. One of the Superman Returns writers complained it was difficult writing dialogue for Superman because it was like writing dialogue for Jesus. They limit themselves when viewing him narrowly through only a religious prism.
 
The screenwriters have the wrong mentality over the years. They're so focused on treating Superman as a God and God's POV. One of the Superman Returns writers complained it was difficult writing dialogue for Superman because it was like writing dialogue for Jesus. They limit themselves when viewing him narrowly through only a religious prism.

The constant Jesus parallels are getting ridiculous and tiresome. It’s like they can’t possibly get to grips with the idea of Clark Kent as a character, so they fall back on Space Jesus over and over again.

Give Superman to atheists. You’ll get better, more humanist stories.
 
I agree with being sick of the Jesus parallels as well, it was more than a little in your face and on the nose with MoS; it bothered me at the time and still does now.

If I had to pick I would say I "grew up" on Superman and Batman, but I'm a comic book guy through and through and I want BOTH to succeed and be wildly popular. As much as some of the DCEU fans here like to hate on Marvel, the MCU to me does a better job with a potentially "corny, difficult to write for boyscout-type character", and that is Captain America. Others may find this boring but it really worked for me and made me shake me head that the handlers of the DCEU were afraid to write a more traditional Superman, instead of embracing it.

Captain America in the MCU and the Superman I've always envisioned are known as the moral centres of the universes. There may be difficult decisions, or even Kobayashi Maru type scenarios but these two gents know what to do and the other heroes look up to them if moral guidance is required. The MCU ran with this, and it culminates in Civil War.

Superman has been typically written as a Christian but this isn't even necessary, although it should put the Superman = Jesus stories to rest. Superman is a servant like all the true heroes. Whether he chooses to serve God or humanity, take your pick but this is what makes a Bruce Wayne shake his head in admiration at Clark Kent. To me, this was the deepest part of Justice League and one of the few things they did right: Bruce's little monologue musing that Clark was more human than he was. Unfortunately, neither character had earned that moment but it's neither here nor there.

I had always imagined one of the things that would drive Clark is the fact that even with his vast powers, he CANNOT SAVE EVERYONE. I would imagine if "traditional" Superman would have any reason to be a little depressed it would be for those he couldn't be there in time for. But I would also imagine that being the stand up fellow he is, he would use it as motivation to try harder next time.

I think people tend to exaggerate, overestimate, or incorrectly gauge what Fiege brought to the table (and I wholeheartedly agree, it was a lot, Kevin Fiege, the victory is YOURS!) He's not sitting there and writing the dialogue or the set pieces, although I'm sure he has little bits to share and shape. He's a businessman first, he had a strategic (i.e. long game) plan for the entire franchise. Pure speculation but I would guess that the reason MCU went with Thanos for the final confrontation would be because they would have predicted DC would eventually counter with Darkseid. He knew that comic fans are plugged and many don't need introductions for most, probably all of the characters. It was the general audience, the non-fans he wanted to win and earn brand loyalty from. This careful, slowcooker/marinate build up to Avengers ensured that to the "generals", MCU had the first team up movie, and had proper introductions for all involved. MCU showed Thanos first, it doesn't matter that Darkseid came first in the comics, to the generals, Darkseid is now forever in danger of being "Thanos-Lite".

As much as I dislike/have grown to hate Snyder's vision, the amalgam mess that was JL is worse. To the generals, JL is literally half "Marvel ultra-lite". I would call JL's Whedon bits RC Cola, while Marvel is Coke/Pepsi, but this is an insult to RC Cola. Its okay for the universes to be different, in the case of quality films this is welcomed and embraced. What we got was worse, my opinion but I don't think Snyder's vision would have been necessarily better, but it would have been coherent and somewhat mesh with what came before.

The ultimate thing a Fiege would have brought to DC is the foresight and wherewithal to simply say no to certain creative decisions. TBH, spitballing here, but if Fiege had run the DCEU it wouldn't have even been a case of saying "no, Superman will not kill at the end of his first movie; no, Batman will not spend the first half of the sequel killing dozens of people in a car chase". I don't think Snyder would have even been long, let alone short listed for the director's role. And if he had, during the "present me your vision for Superman" meetings he would have been asked (politely) to leave half way through.

WB has a tough decision. They can go back to being the "director's studio", in which case let the director finish his vision. But you can't go back and say later "I don't like where this is going", you should have vetted such concerns AT THE BEGINNING! With no disrespect to Geoff Johns, I don't believe he is the answer because Fiege has shown you need knowledge, but not granular knowledge of the comics to succeed. It's more important to have a long-range strategic plan of how to introduce the various bits, leading up to earning a team up movie that people will actually care about. All due (sincere) respect to those who loved the Snyderverse, your opinion is valid, no sarcasm intended. However, unless WB's desire is to minimize profits on passion projects for a small (but extremely vocal) segment of comic book/Zack Snyder fans, then it's time to find the right business guy who understands and loves the characters.

TLDR: don't be afraid of your characters, and their "platonic" representations... embrace them! Get your Fiege, but understand what he really does. The Snyderverse, all things told, made a bunch of money, but are we ignoring the built in audience that a Superman or a Batman + Superman movie would bring in? And that the Snyderverse might have actually turned off some of these built in fans?
 
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See, the thing is, its not just these Hollywood people who have a problem getting Superman right, it seems like EVERYONE who's tackled Superman within the last few decades, whether via movies, tv, or the comics seem to struggle modernizing the character and finding relevancy to him. We've had a few bright spots here and there, but largely, writers in general seem to have a hard time with this character, not just writing him but also getting a larger audience to care about him. Admittedly, it seems like a tricky balancing act.
 
Exactly. As an aside, it legitimately bothers me that people assume you want a Reeve Superman redux just because he's the only light fun Superman people choose to acknowledge the existence of.

Indeed. Almost as if in people’s minds there are only two possible ways to do Superman: Donner light or Snyder dark. This is ridiculous. There are many more shades of grey to him, if you just take the time to look. And a more ‘realistic’ or ‘darker’ Superman story does not need to dump the character’s inherent goodness and strong moral code. In fact, the best combination for me is a serious story that challenges and untlimately reinforces Superman’s big blue Boy Scout character.
 
I would not try so hard to modernize him. I believe they're is still a big audience for Superman. So far, they're rejecting bad movies not Superman himself. Until I see the audience completely reject an excellent Superman film than I think he has a spot in the marketplace.
 
There are elements of the modern Cavill Supes that I prefer. There is definitely a middle ground where you can have the best of the Reeve Superman and everything that made that work but certain parts updated for modern times (like the pants on the outside lol).
 
With any character it is good to update so they don't become stagnant. But I wouldn't obsess over how to modernize him, how to change him, how to fix him. They usually break some element that didn't need fixing and fail to expand other aspects that can use character growth.
 
I think Snyder's/ Cavil's Superman is the perfect template for a modern Superman: young, vulnerable, charming when he wants to be but not charming in a corny way and, imo, the best looking Superman costume in decades. It was just a little rough around the edges but I think the template was there.

I think what was happening prior to all this was Superman was widely seen as this corny, red underwear wearing, mid 40's, hand-on-hips-mightier-than thou individual that people just didn't relate to. Even if that wasn't what he really was, that was the perception. He seemed like a character stuck in the past. I think he needed to be brought down to earth a little more and made more vulnerable, physically and emotionally and the best way to do that is make him younger. Heck they did that with Steve Rogers and its working out wonderfully, obviously the execution is better, but the template is similar.
 
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There were certain elements in MOS that could've been used as a blueprint. Not all of it but some of it. For example, I have no problem with Lois knowing his identity.
 
I mean DCAU's Superman isn't Reeve. Lois and Clark Superman isn't Reeve's Superman. Not all lighter versions of Superman specifically evoke Donner's take in the comics either. I just find the phrase Reeve's Superman when referring to something less moody to be annoying.
 
People forget though, the DCAU Superman had a bit of a mean streak to him, especially in the later seasons of JLU.
 
WB in some ways are struggling evolving Superman. They are trying to force modernizing him vs allowing the character to evolve with the modern age...and the are getting caught with some conflicting personal from the old & new...it's not working.
 
There were certain elements in MOS that could've been used as a blueprint. Not all of it but some of it. For example, I have no problem with Lois knowing his identity.

Yeah, I prefer that. Makes the relationship much closer that way.
 
I wouldn't even credit MOS with that. Smallville did it first.
 
Smallville and Lois and Clark continued a little bit with the charade of them at the Daily Planet and not knowing. MOS dropped that from the get-go.
 
Smallville and Lois and Clark continued a little bit with the charade of them at the Daily Planet and not knowing. MOS dropped that from the get-go.

True true.
 
I would not try so hard to modernize him. I believe they're is still a big audience for Superman. So far, they're rejecting bad movies not Superman himself. Until I see the audience completely reject an excellent Superman film than I think he has a spot in the marketplace.

When Superman appeared on the Supergirl TV show he proved to be very popular. Many people were clamoring for a spin-off Superman TV series. In fact a lot of people became irate when Supergirl beat Superman
in a fight later on in the series. People don't get mad that a girl beat Superman if they don't care about Superman anymore. Having seen Justice League it seemed Superman in Justice League had become the
Superman from TV's Supergirl. If they continue to use that Superman in the movies I think most people will be happy with that Superman. Also on TV Lois knows Clark is Superman.
 
I'm unsure if DC will ever truly embrace the character of Superman as he is. You are correct, its like they are afraid that audiences won't like Superman because audiences seem to connect so much more to Batman, a "real" human being (whatever) without superpowers and who has a dark, tragic past. So they feel that maybe the only way to bring Superman to the big screen is to give us some "take" on the character, instead of just the character himself. Why is it Batman doesn't need some "take"? Or Wonder Woman, Flash, Aquaman, etc? Why can't we just get Superman as he is?

Eventually, it will take some director with a wild and ambitious idea...."Hey why don't we just make an action film with Superman as a wholly good hero going up against insurmountable odds in order to right what's wrong and save people from evildoers?" Someone will pitch that wild and crazy idea and we'll get the Superman we all deserve.

People bring up how Captain America is proof that the boy scout concept can work. Okay, but Cap works because again as you pointed out with Batman. He's essentially a regular guy with special skills, abilities(though not godlike), and people can essentially relate to him a lot easier and better than an alien with limitless power.

Your statement about a wholly good hero depiction can backfire in so many ways. I honestly believe that's why Snyder and WB went with the darker, serious, and more intense Superman because they were afraid that fans and the public overall would hate the boy scout aspect.
 
I mean DCAU's Superman isn't Reeve. Lois and Clark Superman isn't Reeve's Superman. Not all lighter versions of Superman specifically evoke Donner's take in the comics either. I just find the phrase Reeve's Superman when referring to something less moody to be annoying.

Look at the YouTube comments. That's essentially the Superman that A LOT of fans identify with and like. So many comments I've seen on there said "THIS is Superman. Not that depressing not smiling Henry Cavill!"

You may find it annoying but it doesn't change the fact that if you mention Superman more people will associate Christopher Reeve with it than anything else.
 
But even the widely revered DCAU version (which, before Snyder's was my favorite Superman) had a dark edge to him. In fact, he was at times very militant and no nonsense in the Justice League cartoon especially. He was quite different from Reeve's more "aw shucks" interpretation. So, I think this need to bring edge to Superman has been going on for a long, long time. And even then, Superman's solo animated series was nowhere near as popular as Batman's when it came out and didn't last too long. Its been a struggle to get this guy to connect with wider audiences who seem to favor heroes like Batman and Spider-man and Iron man.

So, I do think its a tricky balancing act. Superman's inherent problem is that he is SUPER-man, a guy who is near invulnerable and supposed to be the ultimate altruistic individual. And I think at the core of it all, that was Snyder's ultimate intention, to make Superman relatable, to make him vulnerable physically and emotionally. In a lot of ways, I feel like he gave Superman the Spider-man treatment, made him this guy with the weight of the world on his shoulders and aspire to do the right thing only to be kicked down every time he did. The execution of said intention is, of course, what we debate about these movies, but I think Snyder ultimately was trying to bring this guy down to earth to our level so we can relate and sympathize with him.
 
People bring up how Captain America is proof that the boy scout concept can work. Okay, but Cap works because again as you pointed out with Batman. He's essentially a regular guy with special skills, abilities(though not godlike), and people can essentially relate to him a lot easier and better than an alien with limitless power.

Your statement about a wholly good hero depiction can backfire in so many ways. I honestly believe that's why Snyder and WB went with the darker, serious, and more intense Superman because they were afraid that fans and the public overall would hate the boy scout aspect.

I don't think it's much easier to relate to humans with extraordinary abilities than it is to relate to a superpowered alien with human emotions. Both are physically far beyond my range of experience. I can connect with both emotionally, though, because they feel the same things I do.

And I don't buy that people would hate the boy scout aspect of the character. Good, selfless people are admired all over the world.
 
People bring up how Captain America is proof that the boy scout concept can work. Okay, but Cap works because again as you pointed out with Batman. He's essentially a regular guy with special skills, abilities(though not godlike), and people can essentially relate to him a lot easier and better than an alien with limitless power.

Your statement about a wholly good hero depiction can backfire in so many ways. I honestly believe that's why Snyder and WB went with the darker, serious, and more intense Superman because they were afraid that fans and the public overall would hate the boy scout aspect.

Despite having zero proof that this would be the case. And they did it because it worked for Batman. They thought dark and Gritty = $$$$$$$$$. They were wrong.
 

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