Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

[Herr Logan]

The concept of movie playback/moments reminds me of some of the James Bond game series, particularly Everything or Nothing (since it's the only one I own ). Accomplishing certain feats of stealth or theatricality would trigger the ability to save varied camera angles of that sequence. You'd be able to string enough of these sequences together and watch them in playback form. That might even be automatic.

Damn, it's been a long time since I played that game. I got all the way up to the helicopter at the very end and stopped there after a few attempts at bringing that damn thing down. I don't recall a playback feature. Still, I know they didn't offer to play the entirety of the gameplay as a continuous movie. Nobody has yet, I'm guessing.

I want to be clear about what I'm proposing here. It's been pretty clear from examples like the Spider-Man movies games (where you can be in practically any spot on the 3-D map and see from that point of view), the 'Splinter Cell' games (with the sticky cameras), and the latter 'Grand Theft Auto' games (with an adaptive "cinematic" camera mode available at all times when you're in a vehicle) that the game can offer a camera shot from any vantage-point in the 3-D world it features. It's also intuitive that if the game can save your progress, and there are games where you can do so at any point during gameplay, the console/computer could conceivably record and play back absolutely everything you do throughout gameplay. It's also obvious that the programming keeps track of everything happening on the map at a given point, whether the player can see most of it or not. Therefore, I think it is absolutely possible that in the near future (if not now), game technology can allow a player who has completed the game (if that was the minimum checkpoint required to unlock this feature) to sit back and play the entire story's saved progress as conducted by the player and the computer's chosen variables for that play-through. This means FMVs and gameplay, through the regular third-person-perspective and the first-person detective view, with dialogue and monologues occurring exactly when and where they occurred during gameplay. If you got killed or messed up and chose to load a previous checkpoint, the movie continues through the checkpoint instead of showing each attempt, so moments are not repeated. There should be a few options as to the camera perspective at any given moment (for the sections where it was gameplay and not FMVs), so you could see it not just from behind the player but from the front, sides, top and various other angles, just like a movie or television show. If the game is constructed properly, the whole thing would play out just like a very, very, very long detective/action/psychological thriller movie (you wouldn't expect to watch it all in one sitting, of course, and you can fast-forward or skip from checkpoint to checkpoint). You could watch this for your own enjoyment, and/or show it to a friend. You'll ruin the game for someone else if they haven't completed the game themselves, but there are plenty of people for whom that isn't a problem. Would that not be a sweet extra reward for playing? Sure, some people wouldn't want to watch everything they've not only seen before but done before, but many people would, even if only just certain moments, and this time around, they don't have to do the work themselves. The end result of the game would be a real collaborative effort between the creative and technical developers and the player. I think that would be the cherry on the top of the cake.

Good idea Zev about Batman's prior encounters allowing him to dispatch villains more quickly. I imagine it working along the lines of an particular attribute increases that shine through when confronted; 'leveling up', so to speak. At any rate, it definately gives the player a sense of accomplishment and progress.

What do you mean exactly by leveling up? If you mean the player would gain experience and anticipate certain actions (the stuff they are encouraged to read from the computer files would now have been seen first-hand in action... for both fighting styles and M.O.s), that's fine. I just don't want the Batman's strength or resistance to change significantly, or have him adopt new moves. The best way for the Batman to level up is to gain new information and to have extra hardware at his disposal. Gaining information will make it more likely for the Batman to remind himself of something important at a crucial moment, which helps the player.
If you mean that psychically fighting a specific enemy becomes less challenging automatically, that's an option to consider as well, I suppose. I just don't want it to come off like the Batman has just fought these enemies for the very first or second time in the game. Just like the Batman should have all his moves all the way through the present era, he should have working knowledge of the villains he faces.

In trying to give the Arkham encounters some variety, you could have different villains escape. It doesn't need to be all full-scale breakout. You could even go as far as having one breakout (and having to capture certain villains) and then late in the game, Batman has to go quell a riot where the inmates are literally trying to run the asylum. Countering the riot would pit Batman against several villains while trying to re-establish order.

Perfect! Actually, that sounds a lot like what I was originally thinking as far as two big security breeches at Arkham.

In the jailbreak towards the middle, the Batman would be compelled to fight and/or incapacitate good number of escaping inmates (most of them being garden variety, not rogues) and then cut out early in the rush to catch the bigger threats, being allowed to do so by the fact that extra security teams and the GCPD show up to stop the outflow of inmates.
In the second jailbreak attempt, neither the villains nor the inmates actually get past the (newly reinforced) walls of the Asylum. There is a deliberately set-up and relatively contained riot, with the villains holding the staff hostage instead of trying to run away (under suggestions/orders from the mystery mastermind?). The Batman does not have the support of the GCPD this time, both because he has a warrant out on him and because they will not storm the Asylum while the psychopaths have hostages. He can't be seen outside the Asylum by the cops, so he has to sneak in and go it alone. This time, he has to neutralize and/or detain every single rioting inmate in the whole place. He also has to save the hostages and take down the rogues. Then, either on the premises of Arkham or closeby (or somewhere else entirely, if the Batman is taken by surprise and transported somewhere else, to wake up soon after the madness in the asylum).

Great ideas. Thanks again for posting, Mister J.

 

[Mister J]

Damn, it's been a long time since I played that game. I got all the way up to the helicopter at the very end and stopped there after a few attempts at bringing that damn thing down. I don't recall a playback feature. Still, I know they didn't offer to play the entirety of the gameplay as a continuous movie. Nobody has yet, I'm guessing.

I want to be clear about what I'm proposing here. It's been pretty clear from examples like the Spider-Man movies games (where you can be in practically any spot on the 3-D map and see from that point of view), the 'Splinter Cell' games (with the sticky cameras), and the latter 'Grand Theft Auto' games (with an adaptive "cinematic" camera mode available at all times when you're in a vehicle) that the game can offer a camera shot from any vantage-point in the 3-D world it features. It's also intuitive that if the game can save your progress, and there are games where you can do so at any point during gameplay, the console/computer could conceivably record and play back absolutely everything you do throughout gameplay. It's also obvious that the programming keeps track of everything happening on the map at a given point, whether the player can see most of it or not. Therefore, I think it is absolutely possible that in the near future (if not now), game technology can allow a player who has completed the game (if that was the minimum checkpoint required to unlock this feature) to sit back and play the entire story's saved progress as conducted by the player and the computer's chosen variables for that play-through. This means FMVs and gameplay, through the regular third-person-perspective and the first-person detective view, with dialogue and monologues occurring exactly when and where they occurred during gameplay. If you got killed or messed up and chose to load a previous checkpoint, the movie continues through the checkpoint instead of showing each attempt, so moments are not repeated. There should be a few options as to the camera perspective at any given moment (for the sections where it was gameplay and not FMVs), so you could see it not just from behind the player but from the front, sides, top and various other angles, just like a movie or television show. If the game is constructed properly, the whole thing would play out just like a very, very, very long detective/action/psychological thriller movie (you wouldn't expect to watch it all in one sitting, of course, and you can fast-forward or skip from checkpoint to checkpoint). You could watch this for your own enjoyment, and/or show it to a friend. You'll ruin the game for someone else if they haven't completed the game themselves, but there are plenty of people for whom that isn't a problem. Would that not be a sweet extra reward for playing? Sure, some people wouldn't want to watch everything they've not only seen before but done before, but many people would, even if only just certain moments, and this time around, they don't have to do the work themselves. The end result of the game would be a real collaborative effort between the creative and technical developers and the player. I think that would be the cherry on the top of the cake.

That does sound good. My only concern was the feasibility. As you've detailed it, and in consideration of advancing technology, it should be doable.

What do you mean exactly by leveling up? If you mean the player would gain experience and anticipate certain actions (the stuff they are encouraged to read from the computer files would now have been seen first-hand in action... for both fighting styles and M.O.s), that's fine. I just don't want the Batman's strength or resistance to change significantly, or have him adopt new moves. The best way for the Batman to level up is to gain new information and to have extra hardware at his disposal. Gaining information will make it more likely for the Batman to remind himself of something important at a crucial moment, which helps the player.
If you mean that psychically fighting a specific enemy becomes less challenging automatically, that's an option to consider as well, I suppose. I just don't want it to come off like the Batman has just fought these enemies for the very first or second time in the game. Just like the Batman should have all his moves all the way through the present era, he should have working knowledge of the villains he faces.

Maybe 'leveling up' was a little misleading. I did mean Batman's usage of information and devices. I tend to use that phrase loosely. It was meant to illustrate the comparative standing between early and later points in the game. It's pretty much as you described it. It wouldn't be the same as typical RPG 'leveling up'.

Perfect! Actually, that sounds a lot like what I was originally thinking as far as two big security breeches at Arkham.

In the jailbreak towards the middle, the Batman would be compelled to fight and/or incapacitate good number of escaping inmates (most of them being garden variety, not rogues) and then cut out early in the rush to catch the bigger threats, being allowed to do so by the fact that extra security teams and the GCPD show up to stop the outflow of inmates.
In the second jailbreak attempt, neither the villains nor the inmates actually get past the (newly reinforced) walls of the Asylum. There is a deliberately set-up and relatively contained riot, with the villains holding the staff hostage instead of trying to run away (under suggestions/orders from the mystery mastermind?). The Batman does not have the support of the GCPD this time, both because he has a warrant out on him and because they will not storm the Asylum while the psychopaths have hostages. He can't be seen outside the Asylum by the cops, so he has to sneak in and go it alone. This time, he has to neutralize and/or detain every single rioting inmate in the whole place. He also has to save the hostages and take down the rogues. Then, either on the premises of Arkham or closeby (or somewhere else entirely, if the Batman is taken by surprise and transported somewhere else, to wake up soon after the madness in the asylum).

Now this is a large-scale level that is worthy of a final chapter. I like the idea of having the inmates taking control. Upon completing the exhausting task of taking them down, Batman is set up for the final confrontation. I had thoughts of the last encounter taking place deep inside Arkham, like a spectacle. Batman and his antagonist would battle it out in a large, yet confined (maybe caged) area, surrounded by screaming inmates. That may be too garish and overdone, but I do like the idea of Arkham as a backdrop.

It would increase the intensity of the entire level to have the player's status (health loss, equipment use, etc.) play a part in the last boss battle. It would reward a player who was more efficient. This is as opposed to allowing the player to recuperate and stock up on health items and equipment after the completion of a level. Instead, it's all one big two-tiered level. Naturally, if Batman is transported away after quelling the riot, this step flows rather naturally.

Great ideas. Thanks again for posting, Mister J.

Thanx. It's not a task to post. The theory of this endeavor is shaping up very nicely.

 

[Herr Logan]

That does sound good. My only concern was the feasibility. As you've detailed it, and in consideration of advancing technology, it should be doable.

Maybe 'leveling up' was a little misleading. I did mean Batman's usage of information and devices. I tend to use that phrase loosely. It was meant to illustrate the comparative standing between early and later points in the game. It's pretty much as you described it. It wouldn't be the same as typical RPG 'leveling up'.

Ah, I gotcha now.

Now this is a large-scale level that is worthy of a final chapter. I like the idea of having the inmates taking control. Upon completing the exhausting task of taking them down, Batman is set up for the final confrontation. I had thoughts of the last encounter taking place deep inside Arkham, like a spectacle. Batman and his antagonist would battle it out in a large, yet confined (maybe caged) area, surrounded by screaming inmates. That may be too garish and overdone, but I do like the idea of Arkham as a backdrop.

That does sound like a good idea. "Garish and overdone" is what the rogues gallery of Gotham is all about, as well as the Batman himself.

It would increase the intensity of the entire level to have the player's status (health loss, equipment use, etc.) play a part in the last boss battle. It would reward a player who was more efficient. This is as opposed to allowing the player to recuperate and stock up on health items and equipment after the completion of a level. Instead, it's all one big two-tiered level. Naturally, if Batman is transported away after quelling the riot, this step flows rather naturally.

That's also a very good idea. I wanted to make it a point that during the majority of the game, the Batman would have dozens of tools on his belt at all times (even though there should be several points in the game where his belt is taken away from him), a decent capacity for offensive devices (gas capsules, throwing weapons, etc.), room for two fully-stocked first aid kits on him, and the ability to refill all his supplies at least twice by going back to his chosen vehicle and any time he goes back to a Batcave. This should not be a game about searching for randomly placed boxes of inexplicably present Bat-ammo. You've got your moves, you've got your gadgets, you've got your computer network and you've got a certain amount of connections with people, right from the beginning.

However, when you're cut off from your car and cut off from your cave, the only things you can get more of are first aid kits (which won't have the more expensive items you yourself carry, like universal antitoxins, epinephrine, and anaesthetic injections) and the throwing weapons laying on the floor.

I think you're right, that in the final showdown, you are left with whatever you've saved or protected, and have to make due with. That's not to say that you'll be incapable of winning. You should have space enough to scale walls, zip-line up to the ceiling, hide behind objects, etc. There should be objects in the room that can be used against your opponent. There should be a way to win, regardless of how many gas capsules or Batarangs you have or don't have, and unless you're wounded beyong the ability to evade and fight, you should be okay without any med-kits left. Under most circumstances, you should not be absolutely forced to shift back to an earlier checkpoint so you can play more conservatively and hold onto more gear, although that would still be an option. It would just be a hell of a lot harder to win if you're down to bare bones (and gas capsules might not even be an asset if you're fighting the Red Hood, who has a gas mask and some protection against flashbangs). The Batman's resourcefulness and ability to use his gear wisely is what would win a battle when his resources are limited.

Thanx. It's not a task to post. The theory of this endeavor is shaping up very nicely.

Due to contributions from people like you and Zev, it is.

 

[Zev]

I would comment, but I am still in shock from tonight's episode of The Shield.

...


Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammn.

Emotional violence and personal vengeance in the name of cosmic justice. Oh, Vic Mackey, you know how to keep me happy!

 

[Herr Logan]

I would comment, but I am still in shock from tonight's episode of The Shield.

...


Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammn.

Emotional violence and personal vengeance in the name of cosmic justice. Oh, Vic Mackey, you know how to keep me happy!

I thought that was pretty damn good as well. This was definitely a "sweeps episode."

Okay, now we've acknowledged the unforgivable coolness that was tonight's episode of 'The Shield.' Now comment, dammit!

 

[Herr Logan]

I also wanted to make it clear that most combatants in the game would be no trouble at all for the Batman, unless they have a good weapon and know how to use it. Petty thugs, especially unarmed, are not going to take more than mere moments to put down. This game should not be about repetitive thug fights, although there would be a lot, and I mean a lot, of fighting street toughs and henchmen, since it'd be a very long game. It wouldn't be like in 'Batman Begins' where you can get beaten easily by four (unarmed) opponents if the difficulty rating is all the way up. Almost all unarmed thugs should be easy, and there should be multiple effective methods of disarming someone with a gun, at close and long range. That last sentence should both beg the question of "what's the point of an enormous supply of easy cannon fodder" and answer it. The overall answer to every question is, this is what the Batman's world is like, and the player is supposed to experience it.

The real challenge should be in the detective work (which ideally would be varied and staggered enough in categories so that it wouldn't get boring) and the stylistic and psychological aspects of the Batman. Almost every action/adventure game is mostly about killing or otherwise physically incapacitating enemies. The Batman fights bad guys plenty, and that will obviously be a huge part of the game, but just like how in the comics he knocks out all "normal" criminals with child-like ease, it's the cape-flapping, growling, skylight-shattering and gadget-weilding so forth that makes this character unique. There are a decent number of foes who can put up a real fight (Killer Croc, Deadshot, Two Face, the Joker, and others), and those will be fights where you'll probably have to use more than your fists and feet.

 

[Mister J]

Absolutely. Common thugs should be dropped without much effort. The only time they should prove to be problematic is when Batman is hopelessly outnumbered, the other guy is skillfully wielding a weapon or the player is just sloppy. This is a thinking man's game that emphasizes detective work.

In regard to thinking, thank the two of you for commenting on how incredible tonight's episode of The Shield is. I shall spend the next 87 minutes envisioning sheer brillance on the screen, only to be disappointed by own impossible-to-meet standards.

 

[Herr Logan]

What do you guys think of a nighttime chase through the woods with the Ventriloquist and about 60 Arkham inmates?

Also, I think there should be an emphasis on infiltration as well, as the Batman is supposed to be able to enter almost any guarded building or area undetected.

 

[Mister J]

What do you guys think of a nighttime chase through the woods with the Ventriloquist and about 60 Arkham inmates?

Well, this is unique. I don't fully have the idea flushes out, but I imagine at certain times, you would be required (or strongly encouraged) to use the woods for subterfuge, while still pursuing objectives. Interesting.

Also, I think there should be an emphasis on infiltration as well, as the Batman is supposed to be able to enter almost any guarded building or area undetected.

Yep. Some necessary surveillance would require sneaking/breaking in. It should be the same for some areas where you're required to gather information.

On a side note, The Shield did deliever tonight. Damn Kavanaugh.

 

[Zev]

Absolutely. Common thugs should be dropped without much effort.

Exactly. Multiple-hit combos should be relatively easy and take out most thugs (WACK! WACK! They're done). And sneaking from behind someone allows you to get the drop on them and take them out in one hit (think Manhunt, only nonlethal. Slam some guy against a wall or into a floor).

 

[Herr Logan]

Well, this is unique. I don't fully have the idea flushes out, but I imagine at certain times, you would be required (or strongly encouraged) to use the woods for subterfuge, while still pursuing objectives. Interesting.

The coolest challenge is that you couldn't always trust the direction of the sound of Scarface's voice. You would have to use the infrared imaging in your binoculars. You could trust that if you heard footsteps, twigs snapping and other sounds of movement, those should be investigated at their assumed place of origin, but there would also be dozens of other inmates running around in those same woods. They, too, show up in infrared, and some of them would attack you and some would just try to evade you. Any escaped inmate you run across, you're encouraged to take down and leave in Bat-cuffs for the police. If you don't get Scarface before he makes it out of the woods and out of sight, you'll have to hunt for him in the city later. You'd probably start by, again, checking the mannequin and doll factories (the latter of which are also prime hideouts for another high-profile member of the Gotham underworld) and showing Wesker's picture to homeless people on the street and "usual suspects" in sleazy dive bars.

Yep. Some necessary surveillance would require sneaking/breaking in. It should be the same for some areas where you're required to gather information.

Also to get the drop on people you're planning to put the hurt on. I'm sure there would be several situations where going through the front door (or even the back door, which may as well be considered a front-door entry as far as the Batman's standards are concerned). The Batman rarely takes the easy way around if there's a more difficult way that will get better results. The trick in this game is to make it relatively easy for the player to do at least some of the things that they would consider ridiculously complicated. That's why most of the enemies are so easy to put down-- because there's friggin' hundreds of them in Gotham City, and the Batman's declared war on most of them.

Anyway, I suppose the Batman should have an optic cable like Sam Fisher, as well as everything else he uses on a regular basis.

On a side note, The Shield did deliever tonight. Damn Kavanaugh.

I know, it did. I totally love Gina Torres (who played his ex-wife), too. She was in 'Firefly' and 'Serenity,' you know. Everyone should watch both of those, in that order. Starting now, God dammit!

 

[Herr Logan]

Exactly. Multiple-hit combos should be relatively easy and take out most thugs (WACK! WACK! They're done). And sneaking from behind someone allows you to get the drop on them and take them out in one hit (think Manhunt, only nonlethal. Slam some guy against a wall or into a floor).

I rented 'Manhunt' a long time ago. I got real sick of it after a while, since the stealth kills were so damn repetitive. Then I found that I wasn't exploring the full range, and only doing the "mild" kills (there's like three degrees of horrific kills for each weapon). Even so, I turned it back in after a while. The gameplay wasn't much to celebrate, but the scripts from the various enemies was pretty extensive, and Brian Cox as the despicable snuff film director was awesome.

 

[Zev]

I know, it did. I totally love Gina Torres (who played his ex-wife), too. She was in 'Firefly' and 'Serenity,' you know.

In a just and fair world, she would be playing Storm. Or Halle Berry could act worth a damn. One of those two.

 

[Herr Logan]

In a just and fair world, she would be playing Storm. Or Halle Berry could act worth a damn. One of those two.

She would be a great Storm, actually. Isn't she damn tall?

I'd know that off the top of my head, but when I'm watching her, my focus is often below the shoulders. That woman has some hips and an ass that could... well, it could warrant a young man's undivided attention, I tells ya. And she's a great cargo ship first mate/warrior woman. Perfect deadpan delivery.

How tall is Forrest Whitaker? If my ridiculously flawed memory serves worth a damn, she was at least as tall as he was on 'The Shield.'

Another thing about that show-- does it seem to you from the last couple of episodes that Ronnie could be a good detective in his own right? He notices stuff and uses his head, more than Lemansky and even more than Shane. Why doesn't David Reese Snell get any God damn lines? It really is ridiculous, how there's four members of the Strike Team, but one of them barely gets front credits and doesn't speak most of the time. He's just the guy that gets his face burned on stoves and his head cracked open during church busts, but he really could be a valuable cast member if they gave him a freakin' chance. Hell, Lemansky's general blind obedience and puppy-like urge to please the top dog (Mackey) explains why he's okay with being a dirty cop. Hell, he's complicit in a constant "meat-eater" corrupt cop (seeking out ways to benefit from corruption as opposed to "grass-eater corruption," where you just make some profit when it's extremely convenient) lifestyle! What's Ronnie's deal? Why is he running with a gang of dirty meat-eaters instead of making a career as a stand-alone detective (not that he wouldn't have a partner)? This is probably the last season of The Shield, and they've almost completely ignored this guy. There are only four members of the Strike Team, dammit. There shouldn't be any place for bit parts there.

EDIT: Someone on the IMDB boards had the same question, and someone else said that Snell is a personal friend of Shawn Ryan-- the show's creator-- and he wanted a more peripheral role so he'd be available for others. His resume wasn't that extensive, so, good luck with that...

 

[Herr Logan]

It occurs to me that in 'Batman: Dark Knight Detective,' a lot of the crime scene and crime lab minigames would be repetitive and very irritating after a while. The best solution to that I can think of (other than to reward the player, eventually, with equipment upgrades that make manual tasks automatic and automatic tasks faster, but even that's only in the Batcave) is to have monologues and dialogues during almost all of these. If the cast of the game was the cast of 'Batman: the Animated Series' (or even just the bare essentials-- Kevin Conroy, Efram Zimbalist Jr. and Mark Hamill), that alone would be enough to get you through it. After doing the minigames a few times, they should be pretty easy and the player can do those while listening to the Batman talk to himself, talk at Alfred for the sake of exposition, or banter back and forth with the deadpan butler.

The whole thing should start out with the "march" from 'BATMAN.' That's just how it is. The music from 'Batman Begins' just doesn't touch Elfman's contributions to the world of Batman. Anyway, it should show opening credits, just like a movie, with the camera moving through various locations in Gotham City and the Batcave. Then, the story should be narrated by the Batman himself (I thought about Alfred himself doing it, but I think having the Batman do it makes it much more in line with the feel of the comics, which are usually narrated by him), starting from the rooftops of Gotham, looking down at Crime Alley.

Things should then flash back to his idyllic childhood with the Waynes and moving forward through their deaths and his oath to fight the evil that took his parents' lives, mostly FMVs. The training sequences should be framed by FMVs and probably staggered with corresponding current-day activities (he flashes back to a gymnasium early in life and learns the basics of moving around, then flashes back to the present to run, somersault and jump over rooftops, etc.). This trend should continue through most of the tutorials the player will need to play the game properly.

Thoughts?

 

[SoulManX]

It occurs to me that in 'Batman: Dark Knight Detective,' a lot of the crime scene and crime lab minigames would be repetitive and very irritating after a while. The best solution to that I can think of (other than to reward the player, eventually, with equipment upgrades that make manual tasks automatic and automatic tasks faster, but even that's only in the Batcave) is to have monologues and dialogues during almost all of these. If the cast of the game was the cast of 'Batman: the Animated Series' (or even just the bare essentials-- Kevin Conroy, Efram Zimbalist Jr. and Mark Hamill), that alone would be enough to get you through it. After doing the minigames a few times, they should be pretty easy and the player can do those while listening to the Batman talk to himself, talk at Alfred for the sake of exposition, or banter back and forth with the deadpan butler.

The whole thing should start out with the "march" from 'BATMAN.' That's just how it is. The music from 'Batman Begins' just doesn't touch Elfman's contributions to the world of Batman. Anyway, it should show opening credits, just like a movie, with the camera moving through various locations in Gotham City and the Batcave. Then, the story should be narrated by the Batman himself (I thought about Alfred himself doing it, but I think having the Batman do it makes it much more in line with the feel of the comics, which are usually narrated by him), starting from the rooftops of Gotham, looking down at Crime Alley.

Things should then flash back to his idyllic childhood with the Waynes and moving forward through their deaths and his oath to fight the evil that took his parents' lives, mostly FMVs. The training sequences should be framed by FMVs and probably staggered with corresponding current-day activities (he flashes back to a gymnasium early in life and learns the basics of moving around, then flashes back to the present to run, somersault and jump over rooftops, etc.). This trend should continue through most of the tutorials the player will need to play the game properly.

Thoughts?

Something like from MOP opening...also get Ms. Walker to score the game music. Also inc other people from Gotham, Ragman, Creeper, Alan Scott, etc.

 

[Herr Logan]

Something like from MOP opening...

That instead of the straight-up Elfman march? I'm not sure the chorus is necessary, but the drumbeat from the Burton movie would work very nicely. What do you think?

also get Ms. Walker to score the game music. Also inc other people from Gotham, Ragman, Creeper, Alan Scott, etc.

As many cameos as is respectable and practical. I personally think there are too many vigilantes based in Gotham City in general, and only the really important and continuity-ingrained ones should get more than a brief mention (i.e. Catwoman and the Huntress, as opposed to Onyx, Tarantula and Morpheus), but everybody could get at least a cameo mention in a gamr this long.

I don't know too much about any of the characters you mentioned, so I'll need more specific suggestions there. Is Alan Scott the golden age Green Lantern?

I think that the Creeper is a TV reporter in the comics as well as the cartoon, and if that's the case, Jack Ryder (that's the name, right?) should be the one in the TV news reports that should show up every once in a while. There should be both newspaper headlines and TV reports to update the player on what's going on in Gotham as a result of the Batman's efforts and also just the events he needs to deal with.


By the way, did I already tell you that you and I are supposed to be mortal enemies because I attend the University of Maryland?

 

[Herr Logan]

This afternoon, I watched 'Saw II'. Horrific stuff. Skillfull, suspenseful cinematography. Still, I was frustrated the whole time because the people were being stupid and not careful enough. Several times while watching, I yelled out "The Batman would have been out of here already, without his damn belt!" That gave me an idea for my game concept.

Remember how I wanted a bunch of Riddler clues? Well, I think it might be a bit difficult to string together too many riddles to follow in an accessable city as big as Gotham and so much information to comb through in the Batcomputer to make sure you're on the right track. Now, I still think there should be riddles that send you criss-crossing the city at large, but here's a great way to put Batman's brain and ingenuity to work with a consistent string of solvable riddles: knock him out, take his belt away, and lock him in a deathtrap house o' horrors (although still probably rated T for teen). Just like in 'Saw II,' the Batman would have to run around looking for clues, solving riddles and using available environmental impliments (as well as the miniaturized tools and lockpicks that are always in his suit even when his utility belt is gone-- although much of this complex would be without pickable locks or screws that can be undone, just for added challenge) in order to get out in time. Also, there may be a deadly enemy or two in there. Someone who can take the Batman in a fight, obviously (unless we want to make it unforgivably difficult and send in a guy with a gun when all the Batman has are his gauntlets, cape and speed to evade and block single shots).

What do you guys think of that? This would likely be the area where most players would turn to a walkthrough eventually.

Also, what do you guys think is a reasonable range of criminalistics media? What kinds of evidence should the Batman look for, collect and use to track down perps or narrow the list of suspects? I think that DNA (in the forms of blood and skin cells), blood type, fingerprints and hair should definitely be there. For most known criminals in the Batcomputer database, at least some of those evidence types are recorded (always fingerprints and hair). I've been reconsidering the concept shoeprints, however. I wanted to add a tool to his arsenal that I don't think he has now-- a scanner that takes a laser imprint of a footprint, in place of the plaster molds that CSI units use sometimes (for the sake of saving space and time)-- to make footwear identification easier, but checking on which footwear retailer sold what to which people is a bit too much even for an in-depth Batman game. What do you think?

 

[SoulManX]

We are pawns in the game of life when it comes to b-ball. But hey we sweep the Terps this year.

When I mean Mask of the Phantasm scene of Gotham with Elfman's score.

Yea Alan Scott is the Golden Age Green Lantern but it would be nice to see others beside Bats. I love Batman yet there are others who protect it as well.

Also keep the Batman and Gordon rooftop convo.

The detective work should include looking thur files, tagging people, listening devices, etc.

 

[kame-sennin]

I just read through the last ten pages of this thread to catch myself up, it's definatley been a while. Sorry about that Herr. I've been pretty obsessed with the Nintendo Revolution (new system) as well as dealing with the shattered fragments of my so-called social life. Anyhoo.

I really really like your X-men video game idea. If you're familiar at all with Nintendo's upcomming system, I could fill you in on how well it would compliment some of your gameplay ideas. If not, elaborating on it would be mostly a waste of time. Either way, I like the fact that you are taking a Spider-man 2 game style approach to controlling the X-men while maintaing the team dynamics of legends. I have a lot of the same quarrels with the latter game as you do, and I find the SM2 format more engaging. Perhaps I may comment more on this in the future.

You guys have been doing some goodwork on "Batman: Dark Knight Detective" aswell. I said pretty much all I have to say on that a while back, but I like the fact that it literally forces the player to become Batman. It might not appeal to the average gamer, but Batman fans have been craving something like this for a while. Good job.

On a completley unrelated note, I dropped by the Spider-man 3 boards when I heard about a new picture. Needless to say, this film looks like it's shaping up to be quite the tragedy as expected. I'm sure you are all familiar with what they have done to Spider-man's symbiote costume. I have to say, however, that I find myself in a bit of a bind. Even though I am irked and suprised that the studio has denied us the symplistic matrix-like 'coolness' of the comic symbiote suit (which usually passes for innovative costume design in Hollywood), I have to admit that I find the costume designed by the studio to be very aesthetically pleasing. Moreover, it makes just as much sense as the other symbiote design, as the symbiote designs a costume based on the wearer's thoughts. It's not unlikely that Peter would simply invision his own costume. Now, I have no desire to violate the rules of this thread. I am just trying to be honest and express a ligitmate conflict of interest that I am currently facing. In occordance with the guidlines of the thread, I will add that the casting of Topher Grace is an insult to anyone who has ever openned a Spider-man comic, bringing in Gwen Stacy at this stage of the game is adding insult to injury, and I pray deeply that the costume featured in the press release was meerly a symbolic advertisment made to represent the real symbiote costume that we will actually get, but I know the studio heads are so condescending that they actually believe they have created something superior to the original.

Finally, don't confuse my appreciation for the new costume on a visual level for approval of it in a narrative sense. I am just as dissapointed with the inclusion of this costume as I would be if they had gone with Alex Ross' design in the first film. Both designs look cool, but that doesn't make them Spider-man.

 

[Zev]

In occordance with the guidlines of the thread, I will add that the casting of Topher Grace is an insult to anyone who has ever openned a Spider-man comic.

I'd like to remind everyone at this point that the Spider-Man movies have always been strong on villain casting. Who could, in all honesty, say before Spider-Man 2 that they would've pegged Alfred Molina as the perfect Doc Ock? I doubt that Sam Raimi would cast talented people like James Cromwell and Bryce Dallas Howard, then blunder into making Venom a laughing stock. I'm not saying we should wait for the movie to come out. I'm not even saying we should wait for the trailer to come out. But can we at least see a picture of Grace in costume before we declare it's the worst casting since Paris Hilton as Mother Theresa?

 

[Herr Logan]

We are pawns in the game of life when it comes to b-ball. But hey we sweep the Terps this year.

Honestly, I couldn't care less about sports or school spirit, but UMD has had a lot of problems with its fans bring shame to the school by being disgracefully rude, tribalistic neanderthals toward the Blue Devils. Just thought I'd make sure we didn't have secrets between us

When I mean Mask of the Phantasm scene of Gotham with Elfman's score.

I knew what you meant. That was actually Shirley Walker, who also composed the theme for the animated series, based on Elfman's theme. I just think it would be great if she were the composer for the game in general, but I'd really love it if the very beginning (and the end credits) featured the main theme from the first movie. That's a piece of music that befits action and foreboding themes, whereas Walker's them from 'Mask of the Phantasm' befits tragedy and sadness, which was the overall feeling of that movie. It's probably one of the saddest movies that I consider one of my favorites.

It would be awesome to fit the opening theme from 'Mask of the Phantasm' into the game somewhere, perhaps if the Batman were compelled to sneak around in an auditorium (during an investigation) while an orchestra was playing and a choir were singing. That would make it a challenge to stay aware, as you'll be practically unable to hear people talking or moving around, but it would be so cool if you were sneaking behind the audience or across the ceiling and maybe even fighting someone up on a catwalk or in the rafters while that song played loudly and noone noticed.
Also, if during one of the times the Batman visits an individual in his home (a crime boss, corrupt judge or other wealthy authority figure that needs a good talking-to), the resident is listening to a classical music CD and that's the track playing.

Did you know that the song doesn't actually make any sense, and isn't in a real language. Most of those words were cast and crew members' names backwards, but it came out sounding beautifully.

Yea Alan Scott is the Golden Age Green Lantern but it would be nice to see others beside Bats. I love Batman yet there are others who protect it as well.

Did Green Arrow and Black Canary also live in Gotham City? Green Arrow was almost a complete rip-off of the Batman in the early days, but then the Batman is supposed to have learned marksmanship from him (which could have happened anywhere, since Wayne was travelling the world while training in general), and they crossed paths relatively often in Gotham City.

I think it would be good to have brief team-ups like in the relatively recent Punisher video game, and also brief meetings like in the PS1 Spider-Man games. On top of that, the Batman should work closely with Robin at certain times and probably one or two extended missions with Catwoman and the Huntress.

Also keep the Batman and Gordon rooftop convo.

You mean as a regular occurrence? Absolutely! That's why I had trouble placing when exactly in continuity the game should take place, since I wanted Gordon to be the Commish instead of Akins. Apparently in the comics, "one year later" from the second to last issue of any given DC comic book, Gordon is back in the top cop slot. Unfortunately, Harvey Dent is still supposedly back to his old self again (except he's a full-on vigilante instead of borderline, and I doubt he is-- or ever will be-- performing his former duties as district attorney again), so there's still certain things that would have to change for it to be fully intact in continuity without pulling it back a few years. Then again, who knows what would happen between now and when a game this complex would be completed. Hell, between now and when there was a snowball's chance in Arizona of someone deciding to go ahead with such a project!

The detective work should include looking thur files, tagging people, listening devices, etc.

Absolutely. What's "tagging people," though?

 

[Zev]

What's "tagging people," though?

Well, you see Herr, sometimes when a man and a woman love each other very much...

 

[Herr Logan]

I'd like to remind everyone at this point that the Spider-Man movies have always been strong on villain casting. Who could, in all honesty, say before Spider-Man 2 that they would've pegged Alfred Molina as the perfect Doc Ock? I doubt that Sam Raimi would cast talented people like James Cromwell and Bryce Dallas Howard, then blunder into making Venom a laughing stock. I'm not saying we should wait for the movie to come out. I'm not even saying we should wait for the trailer to come out. But can we at least see a picture of Grace in costume before we declare it's the worst casting since Paris Hilton as Mother Theresa?

Don't make me send you to the corner, Zev.

By the way, when was the last time you updated your Veronica Mars/Batman crossover story? I thought I had subscribed that thread so as to keep up with it, but I'm not sure. What I read before was good stuff.

 

[Herr Logan]

I just read through the last ten pages of this thread to catch myself up, it's definatley been a while. Sorry about that Herr. I've been pretty obsessed with the Nintendo Revolution (new system) as well as dealing with the shattered fragments of my so-called social life. Anyhoo.

It's about damn time you showed your face around here! Good to see you, again, Kame-sennin. I hope everything is okay with your shattered, so-called social life. If you wanna talk, feel free to do it here (anyone who would respond insensitively will answer to me) or in PMs.

I really really like your X-men video game idea. If you're familiar at all with Nintendo's upcomming system, I could fill you in on how well it would compliment some of your gameplay ideas. If not, elaborating on it would be mostly a waste of time. Either way, I like the fact that you are taking a Spider-man 2 game style approach to controlling the X-men while maintaing the team dynamics of legends. I have a lot of the same quarrels with the latter game as you do, and I find the SM2 format more engaging. Perhaps I may comment more on this in the future.

You guys have been doing some goodwork on "Batman: Dark Knight Detective" aswell. I said pretty much all I have to say on that a while back, but I like the fact that it literally forces the player to become Batman. It might not appeal to the average gamer, but Batman fans have been craving something like this for a while. Good job.

Thanks, man. I appreciate that. Feel free to tell me how this new system would fit in with the concepts discussed here, but please remember that I'm almost completely ignorant of the real technical stuff behind computers and video games. Dumb it down to my level, if you're talking mechanics.

On a completley unrelated note, I dropped by the Spider-man 3 boards when I heard about a new picture. Needless to say, this film looks like it's shaping up to be quite the tragedy as expected. I'm sure you are all familiar with what they have done to Spider-man's symbiote costume. I have to say, however, that I find myself in a bit of a bind. Even though I am irked and suprised that the studio has denied us the symplistic matrix-like 'coolness' of the comic symbiote suit (which usually passes for innovative costume design in Hollywood), I have to admit that I find the costume designed by the studio to be very aesthetically pleasing. Moreover, it makes just as much sense as the other symbiote design, as the symbiote designs a costume based on the wearer's thoughts. It's not unlikely that Peter would simply invision his own costume. Now, I have no desire to violate the rules of this thread. I am just trying to be honest and express a ligitmate conflict of interest that I am currently facing. In occordance with the guidlines of the thread, I will add that the casting of Topher Grace is an insult to anyone who has ever openned a Spider-man comic, bringing in Gwen Stacy at this stage of the game is adding insult to injury, and I pray deeply that the costume featured in the press release was meerly a symbolic advertisment made to represent the real symbiote costume that we will actually get, but I know the studio heads are so condescending that they actually believe they have created something superior to the original.

Finally, don't confuse my appreciation for the new costume on a visual level for approval of it in a narrative sense. I am just as dissapointed with the inclusion of this costume as I would be if they had gone with Alex Ross' design in the first film. Both designs look cool, but that doesn't make them Spider-man.

You have followed the rules perfectly, Kame-sennin. You've set a fine example to all those who would sin in this holy place. Thanks for your consciensiousness and for your comments. Feel free to add more of your ideas.