Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

We're really approaching the point where a faithful adaptation would be, by definition, an "insane deviation" from the current canon (I mean, goblin babies? Spider-God?).

I should also note that I think you'd probably enjoy Spider-Man: Legacy a lot more. It's an earlier (read: kinda sucky) work, but it's a lot closer to canon and doesn't have any sex stuff in it (read: Felicia Hardy isn't part of the cast).

spiderphoenix.jpg


ON SO MANY LEVELS!
 
cosmic_kink.jpg


ON SO MANY LEVELS!

I'm talking about Mary-Jane's clothes, not the sex, of course. Are those leopard print spandex shorts? YIKES.
 
Herr Logan said:
Just like Mary Jane posing for Parker's personal photo collection back in the ugly McFarlane days.
Ugly McFarlane days. I remember them well. How upset I was when they moved into Ugly Eric Larsen days. "Just a poor man's McFarlane," I said.

Yeah.

Yeah, I remember it well.

Senility has taken so much. Why not this?
 
Zev said:
We're really approaching the point where a faithful adaptation would be, by definition, an "insane deviation" from the current canon (I mean, goblin babies? Spider-God?).

Is that an argument in your defense?

I've got no comment on most of that nonsense, but the Spider-God and 'Sins Past' aren't canon as far as I'm concerned. Spider-Man and most of his supporting cast died several years ago and what we're dealing with now are defective clones with implanted memories. That's my story and I'm damn well stickin' to it.

I should also note that I think you'd probably enjoy Spider-Man: Legacy a lot more. It's an earlier (read: kinda sucky) work, but it's a lot closer to canon and doesn't have any sex stuff in it (read: Felicia Hardy isn't part of the cast).

I'll look into it. *jumps off rooftop and glides straight into the camera*

:wolverine
 
Speaking of the Batman (even indirectly), I'm soon going to post a revise amalgam of my text notes and list notes regarding my Batman video game idea. Even though nobody had the decency to comment on my last entry on the subject!! :mad:

I really think it could be the best thing that ever happened to Batman fans who want an interactive experience. What you lose in "sit-back-and-watchability," you make up for in being able to "steer" the Batman and do the job just like the man himself.

:wolverine
 
Sounds good Herr. I was thinking that's what the Batman Begins video game would be. Needless to say, it was not.
 
Mister J said:
Sounds good Herr. I was thinking that's what the Batman Begins video game would be. Needless to say, it was not.

Thanks. I love your custom title, Mister J. :up:

I, just now while editing and consolidating my notes, thought of a pretty solid 3-pronged system of rating the player's performance. It's literally the name of the game-- 'Batman: Dark Knight Detective.' I should have thought of this earlier, since the title is supposed to directly reflect the prominent elements of the game and the Batman mythos.

One thing I haven't solidly figured out is what the actual rewards for high performance would be. I mean, a diehard Batman (or even just a video game fan, and especially a criminology buff in training) would want to do the best job possible and stay as close to the Batman's actual behaviors as possible, but there should be something extra. I already planned for having "extra" weapons, vehicles and gadgets made available at various points in the game, most of which have been already been in the Batman's arsenal at one time or another. I figured the rating could determine how soon the player gets access to some of these items (in the case of the Batwing and Batboat, I don't know if those would count, since you'll no doubt need them regardless of how well you've done for at least a couple of missions).

I guess a big part of the rewards would be the kind of memorabilia you usually get in various superhero games (comic covers, costumes, etc.). I certainly don't want any of that "searching for tokens" nonsense in this game, because that doesn't at all reflect the life of the Batman. Gotham City is strewn with litter, indigent citizens and evidence of crimes, not metafictional artifacts like comic books and character bios (all bios are already in the Batcomputer from the get-go), dammit! I think you should get a certain amount of fan-candy just for progressing no matter what (like behind-the-scenes videos, which would be amazingly gratifying if this game was ever made), but maybe the other stuff like the extra costumes should be a reward for finishing the game with a certain rating (or getting a certain percentage of the way through, actually... ideally, this game should take weeks to beat, so there should be reward checkpoints).

Anyway, back to revising and merging. Thanks again for posting, Mr. J.

:wolverine
 
Herr Logan said:
One thing I haven't solidly figured out is what the actual rewards for high performance would be. I mean, a diehard Batman (or even just a video game fan, and especially a criminology buff in training) would want to do the best job possible and stay as close to the Batman's actual behaviors as possible, but there should be something extra. I already planned for having "extra" weapons, vehicles and gadgets made available at various points in the game, most of which have been already been in the Batman's arsenal at one time or another. I figured the rating could determine how soon the player gets access to some of these items (in the case of the Batwing and Batboat, I don't know if those would count, since you'll no doubt need them regardless of how well you've done for at least a couple of missions).

:wolverine

One word, Herr. Trophies. Do a good job on "The Case of the Penny Plunderer" (or whatever) and you'd take home a giant penny. No arbitary thing you have to access by going to the extras menu, you can walk up to it in the Batcave and feel it. Likewise with the giant T-Rex, costumes of villains you've defeated (think Batman Beyond), Scarface the Puppet, Mr. Freeze's ice-gun, etc.
 
Having certain rewards locked into performance level is an excellent idea. I'm reminded of Hitman 2, where you would be graded on your performance (measured through accuracy, time, number of times spotted, etc). The point being there were incentives tied to that performance such as weapon upgrades, extended health and so forth. In the context of your idea, perhaps upgrades or inclusions into Batman's detective lab may offer an opprtunity. The allure being that these equipment upgrades would not be necessary to complete the game, but would increase efficiency. For example, more sophisticated versions of existing equipment; electron microscopes, mass spectrometers and the like; surveillance devices. If I'm wrapping my head around your idea correctly, there would be field and lab work in identifying, collecting and comprehending data.

A sticking point may be you envision Batman already has the most sophisticated equipment, thereby making upgrades a bit redundant. I'm not sure how much this would affect the realism of the concept you're pursuing.

By the way, great idea in creating this thread. It's a welcomed reprieve from some of the less sophsticated behavior you sometimes find here.
 
Zev said:
One word, Herr. Trophies. Do a good job on "The Case of the Penny Plunderer" (or whatever) and you'd take home a giant penny. No arbitary thing you have to access by going to the extras menu, you can walk up to it in the Batcave and feel it. Likewise with the giant T-Rex, costumes of villains you've defeated (think Batman Beyond), Scarface the Puppet, Mr. Freeze's ice-gun, etc.

That's a good idea, but I have trouble with that. I had envisioned the Batcave as already being fully stocked of whatever was in there as of a few years ago (before Commissioner Gordon retired, because I'd really prefer him as top cop in the game as their exchanges are great), which includes the penny, T-Rex, Freeze-gun, etc. I wanted both the Batcave and Wayne manor to be full of artifacts you can walk up to, examine and trigger the Batman's thoughts and/or memories associated with them, and thus soliloquies of various lengths and sometimes FMVs. The stuff above ground would be pretty mundane (portraits, Bruce's worldly trophies, artwork collected, etc.) compared to below ground, but it would generally invoke memories and feelings relating to the Waynes. The Cave should be designed based on how it is in the comics (or the encyclopedias), full of every piece of functional equipment he needs and is known to possess, plus a huge trophy room full of crazy crap gleaned from his adventures. Most prominent, of course, is Jason Todd's costume in its glass case, giving the Batman his daily dose of self-torture and horrific guilt. That one definitely would have an FMV; one that would probably challenge the "T" rating on the disc case a little bit.

I don't know, I really want it to feel "real" and not so much like a video game, although I've backed off quite a bit from the hyper-realism I was going for earlier. I want the Batman to have all his training, equipment, connections and accessories from the moment the player starts in the "present" (I want there to be a series of mandatory tutorials toward the beginning that take place at various times in Bruce's past, coinciding with his actual training in continuity). I guess maybe certain FMVs associated with the trophies could be rewards instead of givens, while the artifacts themselves and a very brief explanation will be there from the get-go. What do you think about this true-to-life-as-possible concept for the game in general? Isn't that the ultimate dream of a hardcore fan, and isn't it possible with our current and impending technology?


I've decided not to make the player learn a full criminal justice course's worth of info on how to not to screw a police investigation up, at least. There will be a little bit of that, but they should only be simple guidelines on what counts as evidence, what qualifies it as incriminating the suspect in question (if you knew it was the guy somehow and then caught him before collecting hard evidence against him), and how to keep it safe and reasonably uncompromised and get it to the police in a manner that wouldn't get it excluded in court. The primary goal is to get them off the street and get them in custody, not to secure a conviction, but your Detective rating will be excellent if you can get in the habit of gathering evidence that will keep the perp off the street for a long time. If a perp you've brought down comes up again in the course of your game, it's either an important plot point or it's an indication that you fouled up. However, a large portion of the criminals you'll face are repeat offenders and may be on parole, on probation or have outstanding warrants on them.

Okay, I just wrote a paragraph (not the previous one, it's something I just deleted) detailing the same complicated crap I decided I was going to let go of. Okay, here's the deal: if the perp has an outstanding warrant, is on parole or probation, then you just need to incapacitate them (through force or fear) and cuff them up for the cops. If they do not qualify for any of those conditions, then you need to get evidence and get it to the police, whether or not you catch the criminal. If you lead the police to incriminating evidence (either records or weapons the cops wouldn't have found yet or crime scene evidence that wasn't discovered by them) or send something valid to them and then leave that case alone, you will get some credit no matter what. The same thing goes for catching the perp but with nothing incriminating. But neither of those scenarios gets you as much credit as if you did the whole bit and earned the title of World's Greatest Detective. It's basically a pittance that lets you know that a half-assed job is better than ignoring the case altogether. You'll get reports through the course of the game (from the Batcomputer's constant hacking into government databases or public news reports) informing you what became of the case (which differentiates from the 'True Crime' games, even if you often dump perps on the ground in cuffs the same way). If the criminals got off even though you did a thorough job, it may be a plot point instead of a routine thing and there would be some way of communicating that to the player, if not right away then as a pattern of walking guilty emerges. Remember, it's still a town ridden with crime and corruption, even if it's not like it was in 'Year One.' Plenty of organized crime actions here as well as random street crimes and the psychotic rogues.

Ramble, ramble, ramble... doesn't he do anything else? Hey, don't talk about me that way! Who's saying what now? Who's side are you on?! :confused:

:wolverine
 
Herr Logan said:
Who's side are you on?! :confused:

:wolverine

Tony Stark's. Sorry, but defense contractor/Secretary of Defense trumps flag-boy terrorist apologist every time.
 
Mister J said:
Having certain rewards locked into performance level is an excellent idea. I'm reminded of Hitman 2, where you would be graded on your performance (measured through accuracy, time, number of times spotted, etc). The point being there were incentives tied to that performance such as weapon upgrades, extended health and so forth. In the context of your idea, perhaps upgrades or inclusions into Batman's detective lab may offer an opprtunity. The allure being that these equipment upgrades would not be necessary to complete the game, but would increase efficiency. For example, more sophisticated versions of existing equipment; electron microscopes, mass spectrometers and the like; surveillance devices. If I'm wrapping my head around your idea correctly, there would be field and lab work in identifying, collecting and comprehending data.

A sticking point may be you envision Batman already has the most sophisticated equipment, thereby making upgrades a bit redundant. I'm not sure how much this would affect the realism of the concept you're pursuing.

That's an excellent suggestion for rewards! Unfortunately, that's also a correct assessment that it's a sticking point, as you are indeed wrapping your head around my idea correctly. The Batman does indeed possess the cutting edge of criminalistics equipment. This warrants further consideration.

Perhaps the equipment itself wouldn't change (regarding the crime lab, not the adventurer's gear), but the efficiency/speed would? Like how the more people perfect their skills, the better they tend to be as long as they keep their performance strong? It's not as visually rewarding as if the equipment itself changed as you earned "Bat-cred" (TM, b1tches), but it keeps the "realism" of the Batman universe and still gives you something extra.

Actually, maybe the equipment could improve afterall. The idea behind some (not all) of the field gear upgrades and extras-- in particular the Memory Fabric Cape Glider, the Audio/Visual Bug (basically the sticky cam from 'Splinter Cell'), and the electronics scrambler/EMP (also inspired by 'Splinter Cell 3')-- was that Wayne Enterprises and/or the Batman in his workshop would develop or gain access to new inventions through the course of the game. It'd be something like this: during an FMV, Alfred says "It really doesn't look all that different," referring to the cape, and then you see the Batman demonstrating a brand cape glider in the cave than goes hard and soft at his command, and the Batman explains that Wayne Tech just manufactured a batch of prototype Memory Cloth.
Anyway, just like new locomotion, offensive and surveillance equipment can be invented in the course of the game, maybe advances in forensics equipment could be the same way. I envisioned that some of the crime lab stuff would be automatic, and some of it would be mini-games (there'd be a lot of minigames). Maybe you could maintain a consistent level of high-quality work and when the game decides you've earned it, it automatically sets you up with even better crime lab equipment the next time you return to the Batcave. Either the Batman himself invents/modifies the gear, or it becomes available commercially-- available only to government agencies, mostly, and it may be prototypical instead of on the market, but the Batman would still deem it fit for use. Either way, that's how you could upgrade his lab and keep it faithful to the Batman's methods and resources. You could upgrade each function of the crime lab (including, but not limited to, hair sample testing, DNA matching, shoeprint pattern recognition, ballistics matching, etc.... I don't include fingerprint matching and facial recognition software because that would likely be as fast as possible already, since that's probably just a matter or computer speed?) so that one by one, the manual processes become automatic and the automatic functions become speedier. You're rewarded by having less and less minigames to put up with! That still leaves physical interrogations, intricate conversations, lock-picking, safe-cracking, rope-cutting, screw-removing, bomb-defusing, plastique setting, explosive door lock assembly rigging, and God knows what else, but at least you can cut down on the manual work in the crime lab. Hell, for people who may have a paraphilia for mini-games and want to do it manually anyway, or people play for a long time after upgrading and want to show off the intricacies of the game to their friends, you would have the option to do it the old-fashioned way whenever you want. Craziness!

Besides certifiably insane, how's that sound?

Thanks so much for the input. :up:
By the way, great idea in creating this thread. It's a welcomed reprieve from some of the less sophsticated behavior you sometimes find here.

Thank you kindly. I very much agree. :)

I had a lot of time to think when I got three weeks probation last year; to think about the Hype and how I could best express my own wishes and allow for like-minded people (otherwise known as superior beings) to do the same. I'm quite pleased with the results, and I thank all the visitors of this thread for keeping our collective dreams alive.

:wolverine
 
Zev said:
Tony Stark's. Sorry, but defense contractor/Secretary of Defense trumps flag-boy terrorist apologist every time.

Not... taking... the bait...

:wolverine
 
Herr Logan said:
Anyway, just like new locomotion, offensive and surveillance equipment can be invented in the course of the game, maybe advances in forensics equipment could be the same way. I envisioned that some of the crime lab stuff would be automatic, and some of it would be mini-games (there'd be a lot of minigames). Maybe you could maintain a consistent level of high-quality work and when the game decides you've earned it, it automatically sets you up with even better crime lab equipment the next time you return to the Batcave. Either the Batman himself invents/modifies the gear, or it becomes available commercially-- available only to government agencies, mostly, and it may be prototypical instead of on the market, but the Batman would still deem it fit for use. Either way, that's how you could upgrade his lab and keep it faithful to the Batman's methods and resources. You could upgrade each function of the crime lab (including, but not limited to, hair sample testing, DNA matching, shoeprint pattern recognition, ballistics matching, etc.... I don't include fingerprint matching and facial recognition software because that would likely be as fast as possible already, since that's probably just a matter or computer speed?) so that one by one, the manual processes become automatic and the automatic functions become speedier. You're rewarded by having less and less minigames to put up with! That still leaves physical interrogations, intricate conversations, lock-picking, safe-cracking, rope-cutting, screw-removing, bomb-defusing, plastique setting, explosive door lock assembly rigging, and God knows what else, but at least you can cut down on the manual work in the crime lab. Hell, for people who may have a paraphilia for mini-games and want to do it manually anyway, or people play for a long time after upgrading and want to show off the intricacies of the game to their friends, you would have the option to do it the old-fashioned way whenever you want. Craziness!

:wolverine

Somewhat like how you can buy upgrades to your powers in Spider-Man 2, or upgrade your stats in Deus Ex.
 
Zev said:
Somewhat like how you can buy upgrades to your powers in Spider-Man 2, or upgrade your stats in Deus Ex.

Haven't played 'Deux Ex,' but... not exactly. Not nearly as many upgrades as in 'Spider-Man 2,' and one thing I absolutely do not want is upgrades on fighting moves. The Batman already knows every major fighting style that exists that he's planning on using, and the game takes place mainly in the very recent past/present. Only when he's in the flashback tutorials will Bruce Wayne have an incomplete range of fighting maneuvers, and once he's passed all of those, he's set for the rest of the game. I don't have a good sense of the fighting system (I imagine it as similar to the first 'Spider-Man' game, though), but ideally there will be, in addition to the simple acts of landing a solid one-button punch or kick across the jaw of a man who isn't the Dark Knight, a wide range of button combinations that constitue real-life fighting maneuvers that can stand alone or string along in elaborate combos (most useful when set upon by many foes at once, or when one big, ugly foe is wantin' a piece of you). You could conceivably stick to a select number of these if that's your preference, but that won't boost your Knight rating as much as if you used a wider range when it was convenient. Style matters when it comes to the Batman.

The other thing is that I don't want the player to actually "buy" upgrades. I don't want it to be a numerable amount of points that gets you the upgrades. I want the computer to worry about the details and leave the player to do the job at hand as best as possible. You would certainly be able to read certain statistics in the Batcomputer (like Closed Case ratio, conviction rate and numbers of criminals fought, caught and convicted and civilians saved, etc.) which would only be a portion of the total factors that decide your ratings. You can see the three rating prongs-- Dark, Knight and Detective-- as either percentages or as a bar graph. Well, I don't know, since the computer or console can calculate your style, creativity and variation, maybe you should be able to see those specific ratings. I don't know. Either way, it should be rates, not points, with which your total progress is measured.

The computer calculates how well you're doing and averages it all, keeping track of the time, and after a fair period of time-- maybe two or three nights of solid, productive work. And by "nights" I mean several realtime hours of patrolling the city and following up on open cases, with the option to go home early and regroup.

You should be able to save the game at almost any point while out on the town, with either automatic or prompted save points before and after sections of the game where there's a higher probability of screwing up, and maybe sections of the game that might be exceptionally fun, so you don't have to go all the way through to replay it. You shouldn't have to start out in the Batcave every time you load a game. The only issue there I'm not sure about is whether or not you should have to return to a vehicle and/or various base points throughout the city. There would also be satelite Batcaves in the city like in the comics, but again, you shouldn't have to go all the way there to save your game. You should have to go to the primary Batcave, however, in order to receive your upgrade/reward, even if you can subsequently replenish or utilize it at the satelite caves.

:wolverine
 
Excellent modifications! Achieving a certain level of proficiency in waging the War on Crime would allow new technologies to be unlocked. This fits within the premise, allowing Batman to have the most sophisticated equipment, and also provides the needed incentive. Reach a certain level and it triggers a cut-scene/FMV/screen notation that a new technology has been made available, or as you referenced a mini-game.

Concerning the criminal justice aspects you mentioned, I really like the idea of having ongoing concern with perps and their activities. Having the perps stay on Batman's radar adds to the given realism. These guys won't all just go straight; some would be determined to continue their criminal activities. Perps left unchecked would go on to become bigger nuisances, gathering influence all the while. If not properly 'dissuaded', they could grow from small time activities to more sophisticated and destructive behavior. I'm envisioning a guy who Batman collars, beats the charge and then goes on to pull off a few more crimes. If he's not checked by Batman, he might continue to gain influence in the criminal community, acquire foot soldiers, and/or set up drug rings/smuggling operations/racketeering circles. These guys would continue to 'feast' upon Gotham unless given the proper incentive to reform. As you said, if a perp pops up later in the game, it’s a sign that he’s a larger threat or you fouled up. There's all the reason you need to keep an eye on certain guys, whether it be through personal surveillance, checking the police blotter or whatever.

You're going for something that would take weeks to beat and rightfully so. I'd like to see some form of time considerations involved. Perhaps the police are holding a suspect and Batman has 24 game-hours to get enough evidence to formally charge him. A different approach could involve Batman gathering information on some criminal activity that's set to go down in X number of days. He needs to acquire further intel (as only Batman can) to piece together the larger picture and counter the drug deal, arms trade, large-scale robbery or whatever the hidden threat turns out to be.

I've rambled for a bit because the idea of this is very intriguing. Please comment if I need to elucidate or if I’ve proven to be more certifiable than you.
 
Mister J said:
Excellent modifications! Achieving a certain level of proficiency in waging the War on Crime would allow new technologies to be unlocked. This fits within the premise, allowing Batman to have the most sophisticated equipment, and also provides the needed incentive. Reach a certain level and it triggers a cut-scene/FMV/screen notation that a new technology has been made available, or as you referenced a mini-game.

Concerning the criminal justice aspects you mentioned, I really like the idea of having ongoing concern with perps and their activities. Having the perps stay on Batman's radar adds to the given realism. These guys won't all just go straight; some would be determined to continue their criminal activities. Perps left unchecked would go on to become bigger nuisances, gathering influence all the while. If not properly 'dissuaded', they could grow from small time activities to more sophisticated and destructive behavior. I'm envisioning a guy who Batman collars, beats the charge and then goes on to pull off a few more crimes. If he's not checked by Batman, he might continue to gain influence in the criminal community, acquire foot soldiers, and/or set up drug rings/smuggling operations/racketeering circles. These guys would continue to 'feast' upon Gotham unless given the proper incentive to reform. As you said, if a perp pops up later in the game, it’s a sign that he’s a larger threat or you fouled up. There's all the reason you need to keep an eye on certain guys, whether it be through personal surveillance, checking the police blotter or whatever.

You're going for something that would take weeks to beat and rightfully so. I'd like to see some form of time considerations involved. Perhaps the police are holding a suspect and Batman has 24 game-hours to get enough evidence to formally charge him. A different approach could involve Batman gathering information on some criminal activity that's set to go down in X number of days. He needs to acquire further intel (as only Batman can) to piece together the larger picture and counter the drug deal, arms trade, large-scale robbery or whatever the hidden threat turns out to be.

I've rambled for a bit because the idea of this is very intriguing. Please comment if I need to elucidate or if I’ve proven to be more certifiable than you.

No one's more certifiable than me! No one!!

Also, a measely 385 words, and you call that rambling? That's short-winded in my book!

*achem* Moving on...

Brief though they may be (;)), your comments are excruciatingly gratifying, Mr. J. Thank you so very much. :up:

I don't have a solid plot in mind for this game, but a lot of big stuff that makes the War all the harder and that affects Bruce Wayne and the Batman personally should be going on, with all the stuff you just mentioned and even pettier crimes as a backdrop.

A few things I know I want to happen:
  • All of Batman’s lowlife street informants are killed off, and he must establish new ones. I've got details on this in another document I'm revising to post here soon (but I'll gladly post and discuss that part outright upon request).
  • Batman’s undercover aliases (including Matches Malone, which you'll have to use a few times beforehand) are “outed” by the same mystery villain(s) who killed your informants. He must create new ones! Again, details upcoming, and much sooner if requested.
  • Riddles. There's gotta be a bunch o' riddles for the Batman to figure out.
  • A jailbreak/riot at Arkham Asylum, naturally. You just can't go without one of these at least once a month, plus federal holidays.
  • Bruce Wayne's companies are taking hits financially and public perception-wise. How? I dunno, but it should happen and be a part of the larger insidious conspiracy plot against the Batman.
  • Batman is framed for such & such and so forth, and thus hunted by police. The police are also being urged to look hard at Bruce Wayne to find their Bat.
  • Every single major villain from the Batman's rogues gallery will feature in this game to one extent or another. Joker, Penguin, Two-Face, Riddler, Scarecrow, Scarface, Killer Croc, Poison Ivy, Mad Hatter, and many more. R'as Al Ghul should be in it as well, but I'd prefer if he were not the primary mastermind behind the central conspiracy plot.

There'd be crimes as mundane as a grand larceny reported over the police scanner (which the Batman can hear both from the communications array of a vehicle and on foot from in his cowl) to kidnapping, homicide and rogue-perpetrated terrorism (doll-shaped bombs, fear gas emmissions, etc.). Some of these cases are easily solved or stopped on the spot, and others require a bit of detective work. Some require a lot of detective work.

Some are, as you suggested, drug rings/smuggling operations/racketeering circles and other organized crime (OC) activities. You can use tracking devices and audio bugs throughout the game, and this is the place to do it. Sneaking around in offices and obtaining or recording documents and other evidence builds a case against these gangsters, and refraining from immediately taking these people down can allow for a greater bust later on, since there may be criminal activity going on in connection with the gang you're investigating that would go on undiscovered if you make the bust prematurely. Either way, you can get results and varying degrees of reward credit if you get a decent amount of evidence and catch enough bad guys yourself or set them up for the cops (there's a bit of difference there in how much reward credit you get, though), but it's also good to try and get as much material on the table as possible before putting the kibosh on it all. By achieving a skillful balance of patience and timeliness-- make the bust not too soon and not too late, good timing, in other words-- it makes your job easier later on when you have even bigger things on your plate and you'd rather not have complex crime rings weighing down on your conscience. Yes, the Batman's anxieties will become the player's one way or another, whether the game will force you to take a certain path directly or the Batman simply won't shut up about whatever he feels he should be doing at a given time. Either way, you've got to do it the Batman's way. But the Batman has several "ways," so it's not simply linear for the most part if you don't let stuff pile up on you (which actually makes it much harder on the player in many ways). Anyway, the other thing about long-term OC investigations is that, you don't have to simply stand back and watch stuff happen. You can follow short-trip (as in, within the city) shipments and see that they get to the right people (the cops) and take down the people doing the shipping. Those perps are perfect for squeezing info out of before handing them over to the cops. But if you do that, you'd want the cops to be on the same page as you and wait a little while before comin' down like a month o' Sundays on the central operation. Throughout most of the game, you'll have the option of staying on good terms with the GCPD (which means being as accomodating as is necessary while still keeping your brooding, impenetrable persona during conversations), which makes them more likely to listen to your suggestions. You don't need them to be involved throughout all stages of all investigations, though, and it's more helpful in some cases than in others. You might wonder how you can trust that a caught perp wouldn't alert his co-conspirators when he gets his phone call at the stationhouse... would you want to tell your fellow thugs-- all sworn to keep their damn mouths shut-- that you spilled the beans to the Bat? Let's assume that most of these gangs have a policy similar to Omerta, the Mafia honor code. Loose lips get throats slit.

Now that, my friend, is rambling! Thanks again for your comments and ideas. :up:

:wolverine
 
I respectfully concede the Chairs of both, Rambling and Certifiable Behavior to you Mr. Logan. However, I ask that you keep me in mind in your duties of delegation, as well as the formation of any relevant sub-committees.

Ahh, the plot thickens. An insidious and yet unknown villain attacking both Bruce Wayne and the Batman. The attack on Wayne himself intrigues. I am reminded of a Bat-book I perused the other day. Someone was tampering with Wayne Enterprises products, causing the perception of inherent deficiencies. This could easily be expanded to a level which lessens public confidence in across Wayne's holdings. Perhaps mention is made to the varied prototypes that disappear from the company from time to time. Additionally, maybe attention is brought to unexplained R&D expenditures. The Dark Knight will have to investigate.

The police hunt of Batman is a definite. There should be an amicable relationship between the cops and Batman at first. However, as the frame job against Batman begins to reveal itself, they begin to distrust and hunt him. Absolutely! Perhaps there's even a Year One moment where the Batman must engineer his escape from the police inside a dilapidated building.

The variation in the type of crimes has its place and serves to add the realism and depth this game deserves. You've heightened this by including a persona of the Batman that may or may not (depending on the player's choices) coincide with how the player approaches the task at hand. Batman definitely has "his way" or doing this. You couldn't have some nut-job running around on ruthless killing sprees and ignoring powerful crime syndicates in favor of chasing the little fish. Maybe this ties into police mistrust and manhunt of Batman. If the user chooses to ignore the prompts of doing things "Batman's way", police suspicion of him increases. This intensifies the heat on the police search, compromising his efforts. The immediacy of this manhunt would vary according to how much of a rapport Batman has built with the police to that point in the game. As you alluded to, while keeping his brooding persona, the player can choose to be accommodating or to be more brash and unyielding in his pursuit. How much goodwill you’ve developed will go a long way in delaying the full force of the GCPD from coming down on you.

I'm brainstorming ideas in regards to incorporating the use of informants and aliases. I'm interested in seeing your take after your revisions are done.

This is the type of non-linear approach that would hook me entirely. It’s a very telling commentary on the existing state of games that an exchange in an open forum is proving to be more exciting than much of my existing game library.
 
Mister J said:
I respectfully concede the Chairs of both, Rambling and Certifiable Behavior to you Mr. Logan. However, I ask that you keep me in mind in your duties of delegation, as well as the formation of any relevant sub-committees.

Ahh, the plot thickens. An insidious and yet unknown villain attacking both Bruce Wayne and the Batman. The attack on Wayne himself intrigues. I am reminded of a Bat-book I perused the other day. Someone was tampering with Wayne Enterprises products, causing the perception of inherent deficiencies. This could easily be expanded to a level which lessens public confidence in across Wayne's holdings. Perhaps mention is made to the varied prototypes that disappear from the company from time to time. Additionally, maybe attention is brought to unexplained R&D expenditures. The Dark Knight will have to investigate.

The police hunt of Batman is a definite. There should be an amicable relationship between the cops and Batman at first. However, as the frame job against Batman begins to reveal itself, they begin to distrust and hunt him. Absolutely! Perhaps there's even a Year One moment where the Batman must engineer his escape from the police inside a dilapidated building.

The variation in the type of crimes has its place and serves to add the realism and depth this game deserves. You've heightened this by including a persona of the Batman that may or may not (depending on the player's choices) coincide with how the player approaches the task at hand. Batman definitely has "his way" or doing this. You couldn't have some nut-job running around on ruthless killing sprees and ignoring powerful crime syndicates in favor of chasing the little fish. Maybe this ties into police mistrust and manhunt of Batman. If the user chooses to ignore the prompts of doing things "Batman's way", police suspicion of him increases. This intensifies the heat on the police search, compromising his efforts. The immediacy of this manhunt would vary according to how much of a rapport Batman has built with the police to that point in the game. As you alluded to, while keeping his brooding persona, the player can choose to be accommodating or to be more brash and unyielding in his pursuit. How much goodwill you’ve developed will go a long way in delaying the full force of the GCPD from coming down on you.

I'm brainstorming ideas in regards to incorporating the use of informants and aliases. I'm interested in seeing your take after your revisions are done.

My long list of potential successors has just shifted, I assure you.

I love your suggestion about Wayne products tampering and there being a mention of the frequent high-tech shrinkage and "misplaced" prototypes at Wayne Enterprises. I did want the Wayne Enterprises headquarters building to be one of the many specific areas of Gotham City (and Gotham County, where Wayne Manor and the Batcave are actually located) that are intricately designed and detailed to be as close to the comics version as possible as well as complete and fully accessible to the player. There's a private elevator just for Bruce Wayne at his workplace (it's true, I didn't come up with that) that allows him to go to basements and exit routes to which no one else is privy, so that should come into play.

Also, the police relationship being one of the ways in which the game steers you toward doing the right thing is a great idea! There should be a lot of player-guided interactive conversations throughout the game, where the intricate and realistic psychological tactics come into play. This would happen with suspects, victims, witnesses, other civilians, cops, your allies, villains, etc. Just like in many role-playing games, you'll have a list of possible questions and responses, or perhaps a different system. I played a game called 'Indigo Prophesy' (called 'Farenheit' outside of the U.S.) not too long ago, and in that game there was a time limit in which to respond to verbal exchanges and the choices were labeled as descriptive instead of the actual words for most conversations (ex. "Defensive," "Sympathetic," what specific aspects of what was just said to respond to, etc.). There are a few benefits to doing it that way. One of these-- possibly the least important-- is that for at least the first time a particular moment or type of situation comes up for a given player, the actual words spoken by the Batman would be a surprise. Actually, there should be multiple lines with the same intent or meaning for every response, opening remark or question. Another benefit to this is that it corresponds to what the Batcomputer will tell you are successful psychological tactics and context-specific communication skills. By the same token, it might be more interesting to let the player decide from a list of quotes what corresponds to the intent or tone required for a successful result. Furthermore, it might be far too easy if you have a database in your menu that tells you what works to influence different types of people in different situations and then you merely have to choose generic terms as responses like "Aggressive," "Assertive" or "Sympathetic." Maybe the player should have to learn by trial and error (since they can easily go back and replay a part where they messed up if the game-save system is set up right) what kind of wording goes with different emotions and psychological affect, if it isn't clear already. What do you think about that subject?

Okay, I'm just gonna go ahead and put a few small details of the undercover/disguise and the street informant aspects:

Batman’s street informants are killed off; must establish new ones.
That means he has to set up surveillance on each or most of the major gangs and crime families in the city and "create" a new snitch in each one. The player does this by observing the NPCs' behavior, reading the Batcomputer's information on psychological profiling, picking a good candidate for snitchhood, confronting the lucky bastard in private and convincing him to cooperate on a long-term basis by using various psychological tactics in concert for each prospective snitch (intimidation, blackmail, a little bit of cash now and then, etc.). Sounds like hard work (and it would be), but does that not sound like the ultimate detective game experience?


Batman’s undercover aliases (ex. Matches Malone) are “outed”; must create new ones.
There is a costuming and makeup center in the Batcave where Bruce can become a new man. This would play out a bit like the character creator stage in 'The Sims' (except less detailed for the sake of technical stuff) but more entertaining, because veteran stage actor and master of disguise Alfred Pennyworth will be standing by with suggestions and dry wit a-plenty while you try on facial features and clothing to blend in with the scum of the streets. You are essentially becoming the same kind of person whom you'd use as a street informant, and you will mingle with the criminal element in places such as My Alibi and the Iceberg Lounge (in completely different identities, of course, since that's an enormous difference in class there). Alfred will help you with disguise and voice modulation (you'll "try on" different voices and accents, too), but in the gameplay itself, most of the acting decisions are up to you. This is probably where the psychological tactics are most crucial in a given situation-- although they'll be required throughout the game in many ways.

This is the type of non-linear approach that would hook me entirely. It’s a very telling commentary on the existing state of games that an exchange in an open forum is proving to be more exciting than much of my existing game library.

Is there any higher praise?? :D :up:


By the way, I would have posted this a little while ago, but then 'Justice League Unlimited' came on with an episode that featured J.K. Simmons as the voice of the villain and Nathan Fillion as Vigilante. I had no control.

:wolverine
 
Herr Logan said:
My long list of potential successors has just shifted, I assure you.

This wouldn't have to do with that rapist protected by diplomatic immunity that I let drop off a building, would it?

Okay, I'm just gonna go ahead and put a few small details of the undercover/disguise and the street informant aspects:

Batman’s street informants are killed off; must establish new ones.
That means he has to set up surveillance on each or most of the major gangs and crime families in the city and "create" a new snitch in each one. The player does this by observing the NPCs' behavior, reading the Batcomputer's information on psychological profiling, picking a good candidate for snitchhood, confronting the lucky bastard in private and convincing him to cooperate on a long-term basis by using various psychological tactics in concert for each prospective snitch (intimidation, blackmail, a little bit of cash now and then, etc.). Sounds like hard work (and it would be), but does that not sound like the ultimate detective game experience?

Better yet, after a "training level," start the game off with Batman's street informants being killed off, then have establishing new ones being an objective. That way it won't be as frustrating for players who've come to rely on street informants to have to get new ones.

By the way, I would have posted this a little while ago, but then 'Justice League Unlimited' came on with an episode that featured J.K. Simmons as the voice of the villain and Nathan Fillion as Vigilante. I had no control.

:wolverine

One's a knight from King Arthur's time with a flying horse. The other's a gun nut who likes to dress up like a cowboy. Together, they watch Clint Eastwood movies... err, fight crime!
 
Herr Logan said:
My long list of potential successors has just shifted, I assure you.

I love your suggestion about Wayne products tampering and there being a mention of the frequent high-tech shrinkage and "misplaced" prototypes at Wayne Enterprises. I did want the Wayne Enterprises headquarters building to be one of the many specific areas of Gotham City (and Gotham County, where Wayne Manor and the Batcave are actually located) that are intricately designed and detailed to be as close to the comics version as possible as well as complete and fully accessible to the player. There's a private elevator just for Bruce Wayne at his workplace (it's true, I didn't come up with that) that allows him to go to basements and exit routes to which no one else is privy, so that should come into play.

Also, the police relationship being one of the ways in which the game steers you toward doing the right thing is a great idea! There should be a lot of player-guided interactive conversations throughout the game, where the intricate and realistic psychological tactics come into play. This would happen with suspects, victims, witnesses, other civilians, cops, your allies, villains, etc. Just like in many role-playing games, you'll have a list of possible questions and responses, or perhaps a different system. I played a game called 'Indigo Prophesy' (called 'Farenheit' outside of the U.S.) not too long ago, and in that game there was a time limit in which to respond to verbal exchanges and the choices were labeled as descriptive instead of the actual words for most conversations (ex. "Defensive," "Sympathetic," what specific aspects of what was just said to respond to, etc.). There are a few benefits to doing it that way. One of these-- possibly the least important-- is that for at least the first time a particular moment or type of situation comes up for a given player, the actual words spoken by the Batman would be a surprise. Actually, there should be multiple lines with the same intent or meaning for every response, opening remark or question. Another benefit to this is that it corresponds to what the Batcomputer will tell you are successful psychological tactics and context-specific communication skills. By the same token, it might be more interesting to let the player decide from a list of quotes what corresponds to the intent or tone required for a successful result. Furthermore, it might be far too easy if you have a database in your menu that tells you what works to influence different types of people in different situations and then you merely have to choose generic terms as responses like "Aggressive," "Assertive" or "Sympathetic." Maybe the player should have to learn by trial and error (since they can easily go back and replay a part where they messed up if the game-save system is set up right) what kind of wording goes with different emotions and psychological affect, if it isn't clear already. What do you think about that subject?

Okay, I'm just gonna go ahead and put a few small details of the undercover/disguise and the street informant aspects:

Batman’s street informants are killed off; must establish new ones.
That means he has to set up surveillance on each or most of the major gangs and crime families in the city and "create" a new snitch in each one. The player does this by observing the NPCs' behavior, reading the Batcomputer's information on psychological profiling, picking a good candidate for snitchhood, confronting the lucky bastard in private and convincing him to cooperate on a long-term basis by using various psychological tactics in concert for each prospective snitch (intimidation, blackmail, a little bit of cash now and then, etc.). Sounds like hard work (and it would be), but does that not sound like the ultimate detective game experience?


Batman’s undercover aliases (ex. Matches Malone) are “outed”; must create new ones.
There is a costuming and makeup center in the Batcave where Bruce can become a new man. This would play out a bit like the character creator stage in 'The Sims' (except less detailed for the sake of technical stuff) but more entertaining, because veteran stage actor and master of disguise Alfred Pennyworth will be standing by with suggestions and dry wit a-plenty while you try on facial features and clothing to blend in with the scum of the streets. You are essentially becoming the same kind of person whom you'd use as a street informant, and you will mingle with the criminal element in places such as My Alibi and the Iceberg Lounge (in completely different identities, of course, since that's an enormous difference in class there). Alfred will help you with disguise and voice modulation (you'll "try on" different voices and accents, too), but in the gameplay itself, most of the acting decisions are up to you. This is probably where the psychological tactics are most crucial in a given situation-- although they'll be required throughout the game in many ways.



Is there any higher praise?? :D :up:


By the way, I would have posted this a little while ago, but then 'Justice League Unlimited' came on with an episode that featured J.K. Simmons as the voice of the villain and Nathan Fillion as Vigilante. I had no control.

:wolverine

I will say that I've never played Indigo Prophesy/Fahrenheit, but the idea fits well. You would definitely want truly open-ended interaction with Batman and NPCs. There could be several ways to achieve the desired result; some would just prove more tedious/difficult than others. For instance, a foot-soldier who is low on the totem pole might crack rather quickly under the threat of a thrashing rather than sympathetic reasoning. While both approaches may give you what you wanted, the guy may give you faulty information eventually if he thinks you're soft. Allow the player to experience the different ways of doing field work. I concur with your mention of trial and error. You don't want the Batcomputer to take all the fun out of detective work and just give the answer away. Instead it could keep record of all interactions and make them reviewable to Batman upon request. The player would be able to see what results their different interactions have yielded and be able to classify by NPC, approach taken and ultimate result (how good is the intel?, has the NPC continued to be helpful, how trustworthy and so forth). The point here is that theyuser has to be able to make sense out of the data in order to grow as a detective in later areas.

I'm very much in favor of having multiple ways to achieve the same result. As alluded to earlier, some choices would make things more complicated than necessary. Choose the more efficient way to do things and you complete your objectives faster and increase the chances of unlocking more Batcave goodies.

You nailed it with setting up the informants. Batman would survey different individuals and select them based off how useful they could be and the likelihood of breaking them. Again, the question becomes "What's the best way to get the most out of this guy?" Accessing police records and building a profile comes into play here. Some guys won't respond to a sympathetic ear as they would to a fist. For some, it might take a little cash. Leave it up to the player and let them see what works. Place ramifications on the decisions in terms of long-standing relationships, snitch loyalty, quality intel, etc.

The alias creation is deeper than I initially thought. I like the idea of having Alfred there as a sounding board, giving you direction as to what's effective. Now his recommendations wouldn't be binding. The player would be free to ignore Pennyworth, but at his own potential peril. Perhaps there are some mini-games that determine your proficiency in certain voices and accents. You would need to build these skills to a certain level to make them authentic and useful in the field. It’s not going to help your alias come off as a British arms dealer if you can’t talk the talk.

In closing, Patriot Act is a fantastic episode.
 
Zev said:
This wouldn't have to do with that rapist protected by diplomatic immunity that I let drop off a building, would it?

Jason Todd, right??

Didn't read the issue, just did me some research on Wikipedia. Still, props for me.

If you'd killed a rapist in real life, you'd be before even me on my list.

Better yet, after a "training level," start the game off with Batman's street informants being killed off, then have establishing new ones being an objective. That way it won't be as frustrating for players who've come to rely on street informants to have to get new ones.

Hmm... I hadn't even considered that, since I wanted it to be frustrating as hell for the Batman (not necessarily the player). What's more effective than a pissed off Batman? I wanted the initial contact between the Batman and the pre-established street informants to show the player how it's done and make it clear that the Batman already had a whole list of street snitches he used on a regular basis, and then after a few meetings, they all get whacked and you gotta start from scratch. I don't know how much more frustrating it would be if it was just a few meetings to begin with, but I feel it would have less impact and intimacy with the Batman's world if the player didn't feel that this was a step backward and not just a starting point. The Batman is the one who feels the brunt of the frustration (and, of course, the outrage that human lives have been lost, yadda yadda) since he actually built his network from the ground up to begin with, and the player only has to do half the work.

Anyone else got thoughts on this? Establish the Batman's routines and then have his life messed with, or start things off in choas?

One's a knight from King Arthur's time with a flying horse. The other's a gun nut who likes to dress up like a cowboy. Together, they watch Clint Eastwood movies... err, fight crime!

That was a whole mess o' funny right there. I'd never even heard of Shining Knight (or Vigilante before this TV series), but I likes him now. I wanna swing sticks in the street with my fellow newsies and shout "Have at thee!"

:wolverine
 
Mister J said:
I will say that I've never played Indigo Prophesy/Fahrenheit, but the idea fits well. You would definitely want truly open-ended interaction with Batman and NPCs. There could be several ways to achieve the desired result; some would just prove more tedious/difficult than others. For instance, a foot-soldier who is low on the totem pole might crack rather quickly under the threat of a thrashing rather than sympathetic reasoning. While both approaches may give you what you wanted, the guy may give you faulty information eventually if he thinks you're soft. Allow the player to experience the different ways of doing field work. I concur with your mention of trial and error. You don't want the Batcomputer to take all the fun out of detective work and just give the answer away. Instead it could keep record of all interactions and make them reviewable to Batman upon request. The player would be able to see what results their different interactions have yielded and be able to classify by NPC, approach taken and ultimate result (how good is the intel?, has the NPC continued to be helpful, how trustworthy and so forth). The point here is that theyuser has to be able to make sense out of the data in order to grow as a detective in later areas..

Keep track of actual conversations between the Batman and NPCs in the Batcomputer?? Sweet mayonnaise-covered french fries! That's beautiful, just beautiful.
Now would the computer make some of its own notes to accompany the records of these exchanges? Would it, for example, note which pieces of info panned out, which were proven false or useless and which are still pending? Would it put a label on the subject that totals up his/her status as a reliable resource? Would it tell you, based on what happened before, what kind of tactics work best to manipulate and deal with the subject?

I'd like for the computer to take at least some of the burden off of the player's memory, but I don't require that it spoon-feed you all the information. The whole set-up of the game is so that you are given all of the Batman's powers, but it's up to you to use them wisely, by his rules and to meet certain basic requirements. The Batman's memory is second to no human's (except when it comes to remembering Bruce Wayne's obligations, apparently), but the way the game would manifest that is to record it in a Mental Log and, in many cases, the Batcomputer as well.

The Batcomputer should provide all the information that it would in the comics, plus game-specific info and should have at least some notes on all known criminals. I'd like there to be an obligation for the player to use the database to figure out how they should proceed in various cases. The criminal database should list vital stats, photos, prints, rap sheets, modus operandi, signature (if applicable, and it almost always is with the serial killers and colorful rogues that the Batman faces) known hangouts, known associates, etc. for all individuals. Not all of this information will be available for all subjects, but they will all have at least photos, vital stats and rap sheets. Some of them will have DNA on file (the Batcomputer in the game will have identical information to the relevent government's crime database, plus notes by the Batman), which will make some cases easier to solve, or even possible to solve. DNA would be added to a dossier where none had been before once a viable sample has been taken by the Batman through the course of the game. The database expands, and new info and notes are made. Most of these files should be actual characters from the comics, from the high profile ones to the smallest, generic characters that ever had their names mentioned, with details matching the comic stories and extrapolated or improvised where needed. Then, if that number hasn't reach at least 500 or so, the developers will have to make up a whole bunch more. This is the best way to keep it grounded in the reality of Batman comics. This game should take place before 'War Games,' so there would be more high-stakes named gangsters then there are in the comics now. All the criminals who were active in Gotham City up to whenever Commissioner Gordon retired are fair game.

Okay, rambling... one big point I was trying to make was that the computer will probably give you some form of lead if the criminal in question is a known entity. If not, you may have to go a while without getting a real lead, or the case may not get solved. The Batman does prioritize, like you said, and I'd like the computer to do that automatically and keep the priorities listed in the Mental Log.

The Batcomputer and the Mental Log will have a bit of overlap, including the map, but there are two maps. Here's an excerpt from my big honkin' document I'm editing:

The portable GPS system gives you access to a full map of Gotham City. From here, you can check up on tracking devices, plan your travel route and search locations. The Batman already knows every square foot of Gotham City my heart. Through the pause menu, you can access his contemporary memory and you'll get a map almost as complete as the GPS can give you, but the difference is that you can only determine certain things from the Batman's "mental map." The mental map can tell you where you are in the city, the names of every street and landmark, the various gang territories (this is actually something you probably wouldn't see on the GPS, so it's good to check both), and the last known locations of several characters (namely your allies and characters you deal with during game play, as permanent residences and known hangouts for every character is listed in the Bat computer). The GPS is the link between your mental map and the Bat computer. It can mark an address you pick out of the database, it can tell you the exact distance between two points, the quickest route by car between two points (you might decide it's easier to go by car or to go on foot over rooftops or through back alleys), the distance and estimated time of a multi-point route, and other similar advanced functions. It also gives information about the z-axis, telling you how high up you are, how high a tracker is (telling you what floor its on as well, since the GPS knows the layout of all the building in Gotham). It can tell you how fast a tracker is moving in any direction as well. It's an awesome device.


I'm very much in favor of having multiple ways to achieve the same result. As alluded to earlier, some choices would make things more complicated than necessary. Choose the more efficient way to do things and you complete your objectives faster and increase the chances of unlocking more Batcave goodies.

You nailed it with setting up the informants. Batman would survey different individuals and select them based off how useful they could be and the likelihood of breaking them. Again, the question becomes "What's the best way to get the most out of this guy?" Accessing police records and building a profile comes into play here. Some guys won't respond to a sympathetic ear as they would to a fist. For some, it might take a little cash. Leave it up to the player and let them see what works. Place ramifications on the decisions in terms of long-standing relationships, snitch loyalty, quality intel, etc.

Exactly. :up:

The alias creation is deeper than I initially thought. I like the idea of having Alfred there as a sounding board, giving you direction as to what's effective. Now his recommendations wouldn't be binding. The player would be free to ignore Pennyworth, but at his own potential peril. Perhaps there are some mini-games that determine your proficiency in certain voices and accents. You would need to build these skills to a certain level to make them authentic and useful in the field. It’s not going to help your alias come off as a British arms dealer if you can’t talk the talk.

Actually, that's even more complex than I initially thought. Not sure what kind of minigame would be used for these function, but it's a great idea and I'm sure it's doable.

I can see the possibility for there being a couple of situations where Bruce can purposefully go against Alfred's initial advice and actually be right in doing so. Maybe if he's trying to get close to an eccentric villain? Perhaps this would be too ambitious and implausible, but if he were ever to attempt to infiltrate the Joker's gang and actually gain some real standing there, he'd have to be someone "special," not someone who just blends in. Sure, the Joker generally likes his henchmen to be generic, unambitious lackeys who laugh at the right moment and follow orders, but if a henchman were loyal, funny and intelligent but not an obvious threat to the Joker's authority, that would be the kind of thug the Joker would really take a shine to. The Joker doesn't respond to physical punishment when it comes to giving up information, so maybe the Batman would have to get next to him and earn his trust (or a few laughs, whatever) so that he'd have a clue what the clown was up to. It would be an incredibly dangerous and difficult mission, since the Joker is very smart, very unpredictable and doesn't give much leeway to his hired help, but it would be a great challenge, and if the stakes were high enough, the Batman would do it.
I could see Bruce choosing something more visually conspicuous and stylish than just putting a match in his mouth and affecting a a more extroverted, whimsical attitude for his new persona to distinguish himself, then Alfred shows some skepticism, then Bruce explaining that the Joker doesn't respect "normal" people and all that other stuff I said. Then Alfred would concede that Bruce had a point, and that's how you know you're on the right track.
In other, less unique situations where you go against his suggestions, he'd say something like:
"You're right. What would I know about the art of impersonation? I only studied theater at [wherever] for [however many years] long before you were born. You know best, of course." Or something like that. Whatever it turns out to be (and there should of course be several variations of that recorded, just like every other line that isn't in an FMV), it means you're being a damn fool.

In closing, Patriot Act is a fantastic episode

It was pretty sweet. It was so incongruous, seeing this big hulking monster speaking in J.K. Simmons' nonchalant, sardonic voice.

What's the deal with Vigilante? Is he a time-displaced hero as well?

:wolverine
 
Herr Logan said:
Keep track of actual conversations between the Batman and NPCs in the Batcomputer?? Sweet mayonnaise-covered french fries! That's beautiful, just beautiful.
Now would the computer make some of its own notes to accompany the records of these exchanges? Would it, for example, note which pieces of info panned out, which were proven false or useless and which are still pending? Would it put a label on the subject that totals up his/her status as a reliable resource? Would it tell you, based on what happened before, what kind of tactics work best to manipulate and deal with the subject?

I'd like for the computer to take at least some of the burden off of the player's memory, but I don't require that it spoon-feed you all the information. The whole set-up of the game is so that you are given all of the Batman's powers, but it's up to you to use them wisely, by his rules and to meet certain basic requirements. The Batman's memory is second to no human's (except when it comes to remembering Bruce Wayne's obligations, apparently), but the way the game would manifest that is to record it in a Mental Log and, in many cases, the Batcomputer as well.

The Batcomputer should provide all the information that it would in the comics, plus game-specific info and should have at least some notes on all known criminals. I'd like there to be an obligation for the player to use the database to figure out how they should proceed in various cases. The criminal database should list vital stats, photos, prints, rap sheets, modus operandi, signature (if applicable, and it almost always is with the serial killers and colorful rogues that the Batman faces) known hangouts, known associates, etc. for all individuals. Not all of this information will be available for all subjects, but they will all have at least photos, vital stats and rap sheets. Some of them will have DNA on file (the Batcomputer in the game will have identical information to the relevent government's crime database, plus notes by the Batman), which will make some cases easier to solve, or even possible to solve. DNA would be added to a dossier where none had been before once a viable sample has been taken by the Batman through the course of the game. The database expands, and new info and notes are made. Most of these files should be actual characters from the comics, from the high profile ones to the smallest, generic characters that ever had their names mentioned, with details matching the comic stories and extrapolated or improvised where needed. Then, if that number hasn't reach at least 500 or so, the developers will have to make up a whole bunch more. This is the best way to keep it grounded in the reality of Batman comics. This game should take place before 'War Games,' so there would be more high-stakes named gangsters then there are in the comics now. All the criminals who were active in Gotham City up to whenever Commissioner Gordon retired are fair game.

Okay, rambling... one big point I was trying to make was that the computer will probably give you some form of lead if the criminal in question is a known entity. If not, you may have to go a while without getting a real lead, or the case may not get solved. The Batman does prioritize, like you said, and I'd like the computer to do that automatically and keep the priorities listed in the Mental Log.

The Batcomputer and the Mental Log will have a bit of overlap, including the map, but there are two maps. Here's an excerpt from my big honkin' document I'm editing:

The portable GPS system gives you access to a full map of Gotham City. From here, you can check up on tracking devices, plan your travel route and search locations. The Batman already knows every square foot of Gotham City my heart. Through the pause menu, you can access his contemporary memory and you'll get a map almost as complete as the GPS can give you, but the difference is that you can only determine certain things from the Batman's "mental map." The mental map can tell you where you are in the city, the names of every street and landmark, the various gang territories (this is actually something you probably wouldn't see on the GPS, so it's good to check both), and the last known locations of several characters (namely your allies and characters you deal with during game play, as permanent residences and known hangouts for every character is listed in the Bat computer). The GPS is the link between your mental map and the Bat computer. It can mark an address you pick out of the database, it can tell you the exact distance between two points, the quickest route by car between two points (you might decide it's easier to go by car or to go on foot over rooftops or through back alleys), the distance and estimated time of a multi-point route, and other similar advanced functions. It also gives information about the z-axis, telling you how high up you are, how high a tracker is (telling you what floor its on as well, since the GPS knows the layout of all the building in Gotham). It can tell you how fast a tracker is moving in any direction as well. It's an awesome device.




Exactly. :up:



Actually, that's even more complex than I initially thought. Not sure what kind of minigame would be used for these function, but it's a great idea and I'm sure it's doable.

I can see the possibility for there being a couple of situations where Bruce can purposefully go against Alfred's initial advice and actually be right in doing so. Maybe if he's trying to get close to an eccentric villain? Perhaps this would be too ambitious and implausible, but if he were ever to attempt to infiltrate the Joker's gang and actually gain some real standing there, he'd have to be someone "special," not someone who just blends in. Sure, the Joker generally likes his henchmen to be generic, unambitious lackeys who laugh at the right moment and follow orders, but if a henchman were loyal, funny and intelligent but not an obvious threat to the Joker's authority, that would be the kind of thug the Joker would really take a shine to. The Joker doesn't respond to physical punishment when it comes to giving up information, so maybe the Batman would have to get next to him and earn his trust (or a few laughs, whatever) so that he'd have a clue what the clown was up to. It would be an incredibly dangerous and difficult mission, since the Joker is very smart, very unpredictable and doesn't give much leeway to his hired help, but it would be a great challenge, and if the stakes were high enough, the Batman would do it.
I could see Bruce choosing something more visually conspicuous and stylish than just putting a match in his mouth and affecting a a more extroverted, whimsical attitude for his new persona to distinguish himself, then Alfred shows some skepticism, then Bruce explaining that the Joker doesn't respect "normal" people and all that other stuff I said. Then Alfred would concede that Bruce had a point, and that's how you know you're on the right track.
In other, less unique situations where you go against his suggestions, he'd say something like:
"You're right. What would I know about the art of impersonation? I only studied theater at [wherever] for [however many years] long before you were born. You know best, of course." Or something like that. Whatever it turns out to be (and there should of course be several variations of that recorded, just like every other line that isn't in an FMV), it means you're being a damn fool.



It was pretty sweet. It was so incongruous, seeing this big hulking monster speaking in J.K. Simmons' nonchalant, sardonic voice.

What's the deal with Vigilante? Is he a time-displaced hero as well?

:wolverine

The Batcomputer, being on the absolute cutting-edge of technology, does indeed offer notes for the data put into it. It would offer the most 'scientific' way to analyze this data. Batman would have the necessary logarithms programmed into the machine. The Batcomputer would offer a recall on information sources, how they panned out, and probabilities based on the scenario and the like. Mind you, this isn't necessarily the 'correct' answer, but just data. However, what is the Batman if not improvisational? Based on actual play in the field, the decision may need to be something that goes against conventional wisdom (the example of infiltrating The Joker's gang stands out). Of course the Dark Knight has a way to access this information (whether it's in the form of his actual memory or computer interaction is a stylistic choice). Perhaps computer analysis tells you exactly what you need to know. Perhaps the most direct approach is the converse of what the computer yields. Perhaps the preferred path lies somewhere in the middle. The player needs to be able to assess the situation at hand and make an informed decision.

The computer keeps track of the 'best' way to go about things, but not necessarily the most direct or effective. You would want to put the emphasis on the player to make the appropriate decisions. It's not going to be much fun if the player can just rely on the computer to all of Batman's analytical work. This isn't a cookie-cutter game. You're right when you talk of the sophistication of the computer in terms of housing a wealth of data of all Gotham residents. The Batman's files would be more complete than those of the police because he has access to intel they don't. This is just more of an opportunity for the player to make sense out of all the data (data, not yet information).

The GPS/Mental Map/Batcomputer interaction is necessary because Batman will always have a more than working knowledge of the field. The GPS is going to give him all accessible and relevant points in Gotham. Your assessment of it is absolute. I practically get giddy anytime the z-axis is mentioned.


I like the idea of Alfred throwing out an obvious, yet veiled remark in case Bruce goes entirely contrary to all logic. Sometimes a stretch might need to be made, but not a complete leap of faith. As always the player is free to ignore this, but to his own possible (and likely) detriment.



As far as the mini-games to increase language/accent proficiencies, the easiest thing to do would be to incorporate one of those arrow-based matchup games that seem to be prevalent (player matches D-Pad movement/keystrokes with a listed script). That seems to easy. Plus, I never really cared for those things anyhow. An 8-year can follow left, right, up, down. This is Batman we're talking about. Clearly, there's something more involved that can be taken advantage of. Unfortunately, that answer escapes me now. However, it can certainly be done.


In regards to Patriot Act, I enjoyed the juxtaposition of non-superpowered beings taking on a super-powered threat. In the end the crushing blow came in the form of the criticism of those whom Eiling thought he was protecting. It was powerful. The matter of fact approach Simmons took to voicing the character hit hard in "Okay, I've become what I hate. I'll give you that." That's serious food for thought. In the end, he really had no place, which (I imagine) is why he took off rather abruptly yet conclusively.

As for Vigilante, last I checked he was supposed to be dead. Of course, this is comicdom, so what does dead really mean? It’s fitting that he and Shining Knight were paired up. I have no idea how either of them is in current continuity (even for an animated show). It seems as if those two would have been killed off in the Crisis. I like their inclusion, even though they’re definitely displaced. All I needed to make it complete was for Jonah Hex to show up. Then again, I never get my way.

If I’ve overlooked any relevant analysis, please mention as much. I attribute any oversight to my desire to evade sleep.
 

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