Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

[Abaddon]

Vulture's origin wasnt merged with Stromms in the series.

 

[Herr Logan]

Vulture's origin wasnt merged with Stromms in the series.

It was, partially. Well, a little bit. Whatever, they made Norman Osborn the guy who screwed over Toomes (instead of... whatever his name was... you know, his ex-partner, the one who Vulture eventually killed), and they made Toomes the guy Norman screwed over (instead of Stromm, who was in the cartoon once, but he wasn't screwed over maliciously by Norman). Do you see what I mean? It's not nearly a complete merger, but they used those two characters to fill in for specific purposes that the proper characters from the comics weren't used for.

Anyway, doesn't anyone think that's a decent way to keep the universe in the movies a little bit tighter and allow these different characters to feed each other's development? Hell, my proposal even included Octavius and his goons raiding one of Norman Osborn's warehouses (just because OsCorp's got great stuff for blowing up or poisoning the city) in the middle of the first film, which further contributes to his growing paranoia and madness (which is strongly exacerbated by the Goblin Formula, rather than completely created by it). When he gets attacked by the Vulture, he's confronted with the consequences of his own greed and penchant for trechery, but when he has his company's equipment and materials stolen by Dr. Octopus, it's not really his fault. He perceives this as the world being against him whether he's earned it or not.

 

[Abaddon]

I actually don't see what you mean.I think youre confusing Osborn with Silvermain.

 

[Herr Logan]

I actually don't see what you mean.I think youre confusing Osborn with Silvermain.

How so?

 

[Abaddon]

I don't remember Vulture having any connection to Norman Osborn whatsoever.

 

[Herr Logan]

I don't remember Vulture having any connection to Norman Osborn whatsoever.

In the cartoon, he did, just like I said. There was a board meeting and Toomes had to phone his presence in rather than actually show up, and Osborn belittled his ideas (research and development of anti-gravity and retro-aging technology) and incited the rest of the board to vote Toomes out completely. Toomes got really pissed off, put on his flying suit and came after Osborn.

I'm suggesting the same thing be done in a movie, with the Vulture as the very first supervillain, through whom the audience meets Norman Osborn and Peter Parker meets the staff of the Daily Bugle (because he responds to the Bugle ad that promises big money for pictures of the Vulture and/or Spider-Man). Spider-Man defeats the Vulture, securing his status as a superhero, and Parker begins his career as a freelance photographer. Spider-Man soon after confronts the new supervillain Dr. Octopus and gets his ass handed to him, teaching him that the opposition gets more dangerous as his superhero career goes on.

 

[Abaddon]

Was then when he stole Spider-man youth using the Tablet of Time thingamabob?

 

[Herr Logan]

Was then when he stole Spider-man youth using the Tablet of Time thingamabob?

Yeah, it was.

 

[Abaddon]

I remember him going after somebody,but I dont think it was Osborn.I'll give you benefit of the doubt though.

 

[Zaphod]

Now Herr, to include Vulture in my concept would be stealing from your idea wouldn't it?

Quick question, is the Batmobile a neccesity in 'The Batman'? I'm thinking yes, just wanted to gauge what your thoughts are?

 

[cerealkiller182]

Quick question, is the Batmobile a neccesity in 'The Batman'? I'm thinking yes, just wanted to gauge what your thoughts are?

of course the batmobile is a neccesity. I couln't think of too many things in Batman thats not a neccesity, everything works so well together. The only thing i can think of as expendable is the trophy room and Jason Todd(who may or may not become more important in the next few months).

 

[Herr Logan]

Now Herr, to include Vulture in my concept would be stealing from your idea wouldn't it?

Fair enough.

Quick question, is the Batmobile a neccesity in 'The Batman'? I'm thinking yes, just wanted to gauge what your thoughts are?

Absolutely. For the first movie it would be a basic black sports car, modified to be armored, very fast, with a communications array, gel-filled, self-sealing tires, and bat-fins on the back. Yes, bat-fins, God dammit, this is the Batman we're talking about here. And a trunk full of goodies and crime scene investigation equipment (including a miniaturized crime lab as well as field kits), of course. I'm basing this on the current mini-series 'Batman and the Monster Men,' by the way.

In future movies, further improvements and models will be made (night vision windshield, gadgets for the car itself, defense systems, etc.).

 

[Zaphod]

Absolutely. For the first movie it would be a basic black sports car, modified to be armored, very fast, with a communications array, gel-filled, self-sealing tires, and bat-fins on the back. Yes, bat-fins, God dammit, this is the Batman we're talking about here. And a trunk full of goodies and crime scene investigation equipment (including a miniaturized crime lab as well as field kits), of course. I'm basing this on the current mini-series 'Batman and the Monster Men,' by the way.

In future movies, further improvements and models will be made (night vision windshield, gadgets for the car itself, defense systems, etc.).

Sounds good to me. I'm currently typing up my first plot-draft for this movie up in Microsoft Word, and will have it posted here either tonight or tommorow. As the draft is at the moment, the Batmobile will probaly make it into the movie at round about the same time as it did in Begins, probaly nearer the end though in all honesty, since fleshing out Batman's detective characteristics and making the origin more faithful to that off 'The Man Who Falls', has extended the length greatly. Not that this is of course a negative thing, but while our movie can of course be longer than Begins was, there does need to be some limit to how long it can be overall. For that reason, I imagine the Batmobile featuring in during the final action set- peice of the movie.

A quick questions:

Should Batman establish all his contacts (Harvey Dent, Gordan) in the beggining of his Batman career, or would it be acceptable to have Batman work with them later on during his exploits in solving Gotham's corruption?

Also, I have the Penguin plot against Gotham nearly finalised now, in-detail. It isn't anything as cataclysmic as what The Scarecrow and Ra's hand planned in Begins of course, but it does tie in nicely with Carmine Falcone's role in the movie. Overall, it's more noirish feel than anything fantastical.

 

[Herr Logan]

Sounds good to me. I'm currently typing up my first plot-draft for this movie up in Microsoft Word, and will have it posted here either tonight or tommorow. As the draft is at the moment, the Batmobile will probaly make it into the movie at round about the same time as it did in Begins, probaly nearer the end though in all honesty, since fleshing out Batman's detective characteristics and making the origin more faithful to that off 'The Man Who Falls', has extended the length greatly. Not that this is of course a negative thing, but while our movie can of course be longer than Begins was, there does need to be some limit to how long it can be overall. For that reason, I imagine the Batmobile featuring in during the final action set- peice of the movie.

A quick questions:

Should Batman establish all his contacts (Harvey Dent, Gordan) in the beggining of his Batman career, or would it be acceptable to have Batman work with them later on during his exploits in solving Gotham's corruption?

Also, I have the Penguin plot against Gotham nearly finalised now, in-detail. It isn't anything as cataclysmic as what The Scarecrow and Ra's hand planned in Begins of course, but it does tie in nicely with Carmine Falcone's role in the movie. Overall, it's more noirish feel than anything fantastical.

I think the Batman should establish contact and the beginnings of a working relationship with both Lieutenant Gordon and D.A. Harvey Dent by the third act of the first movie. Falcone may not be arrested or convicted in the first movie, but his syndicate will be weakened, with several capos/lieutenants and cops on the mob's payroll being arrested and charged based on evidence collected in part by the Batman.

I hope you're not planning to have the Penguin attempt or even threaten to destroy Gotham City or a large part of it. That's not his style, and he has very little to gain from such a move. People like R'as Al Ghul would do it for zealous political reasons, and Joker would do it for the love of destruction and terror (and greed, of course), but the Penguin is both sane and pragmatic. He tries not to $hit where he eats for the most part, and wouldn't want to make Gotham City a place where he couldn't live. He's just out for profit and vengeance on particular individuals. The Penguin from 'Batman Returns' had an apocalyptic plan for the children of Gotham and then everyone else, but that's completely off-base. I don't want to see that again for that character.

 

[Herr Logan]

No one answered me when I asked what they thought of my concept for the Vulture/Osborn connection in a Spider-Man movie and how it fits in with Osborn's psychological degradation and access to equipment designed to provide one individual flight.

 

[Mister J]

No one answered me when I asked what they thought of my concept for the Vulture/Osborn connection in a Spider-Man movie and how it fits in with Osborn's psychological degradation and access to equipment designed to provide one individual flight.

I like it. There's no reason why the history of villains can't overlap. As long as the interaction has some ramifications on future developments, bring it on. I want to see Norman already partially loony and paranoid before the Goblin formula even comes into play.

Having the Vulture loot Oscorp is a perfect vehicle. It allows for the inevitable rise of the Goblin as Osborn's protector. It's the whole "me against the world" attitude and gives Gobby a reason to be unflinching in his destruction. We don't need all that sympathetic villain jazz (at least not for everyone). Goblin can have Vulture on the hit list because he messed with Osborn. Spidey gets put there just because he gets in the way (Damned do-gooder).

Gotta love the seed-planting.

 

[Abaddon]

No one answered me when I asked what they thought of my concept for the Vulture/Osborn connection in a Spider-Man movie and how it fits in with Osborn's psychological degradation and access to equipment designed to provide one individual flight.

I don't care much for Vulture as a villain,but the connection is adequate.

 

[Zev]

I think having two flying, green villains might be a bit... redundant.

 

[Herr Logan]

I like it. There's no reason why the history of villains can't overlap. As long as the interaction has some ramifications on future developments, bring it on. I want to see Norman already partially loony and paranoid before the Goblin formula even comes into play.

Having the Vulture loot Oscorp is a perfect vehicle. It allows for the inevitable rise of the Goblin as Osborn's protector. It's the whole "me against the world" attitude and gives Gobby a reason to be unflinching in his destruction. We don't need all that sympathetic villain jazz (at least not for everyone). Goblin can have Vulture on the hit list because he messed with Osborn. Spidey gets put there just because he gets in the way (Damned do-gooder).

Gotta love the seed-planting.

Thanks for the feedback, Mr. J.

I also wanted Octavius to raid OsCorp, not as a revenge on Osborn, as it was with the Vulture, but as a means to achieve the goal of holding the city for ransom with a weapon of mass destruction of some kind. That will give Osborn something to really be scared of, since he doesn't only have to worry about retribution for wrongs he knows he's committed, but he has to worry about unrelated threats taking his stuff for their own reasons. Not only that, but I figure OsCorp will receive lots of bad publicity when word gets out that Dr. Octopus was using OsCorp materials and equipment to threaten the city of New York. That's three big hits in one movie, on top of whatever bad childhood and life-long stressors will be implied or stated in the second film that were already leading him to be a ruthless manipulator, bad father and an all-around miserable bastard. If one movie could fit one big fight with the Vulture and 3 big fights with Doc Ock (on top of smaller fights and various CGI/wirework stunts and sequences involving Spider-Man and the two villains), Osborn would be a very well developed villain by the end of the second film.

I haven't actually nailed down a plot for the second film, except for a few essential events. My plan was for the franchise to last at least four films, with both the Green Goblin and Dr. Octopus returning to inflict hardcore misery and loss in Spider-Man's life.
The essential events:

• The Green Goblin emerges as a supervillain early on, taking the Goblin formula himself for similar reasons as in the first Raimi film, but also to make himself stronger and more able to protect himself when Toomes gets out of prison and whatever other threats he will face
• He steals equipment from OsCorp-- some of which was created by the Vulture-- and makes himself a suit of armor (smoother and more faithful, not like the suit we've seen in theaters) intended to invoke fear in his enemies and to represent the demon he feels he's become
• He attacks several of Osborn's enemies, essentially like in the Raimi film, but not in public, and not every member of the board (just enough to make the remaining members afraid)
• He tries to use the world of organized crime to obtain more power (which seems insane, considering Osborn's a billionaire, but the Goblin is quite insane, so there's no reason not to carry this aspect from the comics over to a movie)
• He gets fed up with Spider-Man's frequent interference and makes a concerted effort to learn his identity-- he spreads a lot of money around to various gangs and criminal syndicates, arming them all with a potent drug to dull his senses (since Spider-Man seems preternaturally alert and especially when faced with a costumed and/or superpowered foe)
• He catches Spider-Man changing back to civvies, unsure of his spider-sense and other sense, not knowing for sure he's being watched
• He attacks Parker and kidnaps him, bringing him back to a lair where he rants and monologues and reveals his own secret before trying to kill Spider-Man, as Spider-Man is gradually freeing himself
• The end-of-the-movie battle ends in the Goblin getting electrocuted or knocked in the head much too hard, and Osborn develops amnesia and forgets all the costumed shenanigans he took part in
• Peter and Harry Osborn become good friends by the end of the film, and Peter has to live in fear that Osborn (who he'll be seeing a lot more of, since he'll be hanging out with Harry) will remember everything and become the Green Goblin again

In the third movie, Peter will move in with Harry, still wary of Norman but not willing to cut Harry off as a friend. Captain Stacy will be killed by an escaped Dr. Octopus in much the same way he did in the comics. In the fourth movie, Norman regains his memories of the Green Goblin and Spider-Man, and the whole 'The Night Gwen Stacy Died' thing happens in the latter part of the film, with Spider-Man facing other villains earlier on.


As for your idea about the Vulture being a target in the second movie:
My own previous ideas for the series of films would make it extremely difficult for the Goblin to go after the Vulture right away, since he would be in prison by the second movie (having been defeated within a few days of his crime spree by Spider-Man and handed over to the police), but that could be changed, and your idea might make for a better story. Perhaps Toomes could be held in the same super-max prison as Otto Octavius, and the Goblin actually effects a prison break to kidnap him. This would weaken the entire security system of the prison, allowing Octavius to gain a foothold of some kind that he can use to work his way up to fully freeing himself (I don't know what exactly... maybe one of the restraints used to incapacitate one of his arms is disabled, and Ock will stay where he is while secretly and gradually disabling the rest of his restraints... something like that).
If the Goblin held Toomes prisoner and did the whole ranting/terrorizing thing he'd later do to Spider-Man, it would be a great opportunity to show off how much of a stubborn, ornery bastard Toomes is. He's not afraid of the Goblin or of death, and he's a badass all the way through (which is why I like him so much, in addition to the fact that aerial battles are cool). Maybe the Goblin could try to force him to continue improving his glider and develop other dangerous toys for him to use. Spider-Man will suss out where the Goblin is keeping Toomes and rescue him, and while he's bringing Toomes back to the police, the grizzled inventor could tell Spidey a piece of inside information about the glider, which Spider-Man will later use against the Green Goblin (like how much weight it can hold, how fast it burns fuel, or something like that). Not because he's grateful to Spider-Man (he's rather resentful, actually), but because he likes the idea of the Green Goblin getting his ass kicked. This information doesn't help Spider-Man really defeat the Goblin, however, but it makes for a good aerial fight where Spider-Man uses his brains and makes the Goblin look like an ass. This would happen somewhere in the second act, with the Green Goblin's beef with Spider-Man turning personal afterward, and all the stuff I mentioned above with the senses-dulling drug and the secrets being revealed.

Any thoughts on all that?

 

[Herr Logan]

I don't care much for Vulture as a villain,but the connection is adequate.

Thanks.

I think having two flying, green villains might be a bit... redundant.

It certainly might. I don't outright accept that that alone is a good enough reason to exclude the Vulture, but it's something I have thought about, and it's a valid concern.

I'm not sure how much it helps that Toomes' flying suit would be somehow less green than the green parts of the Green Goblin's outfit. I think a suit similar to Raimi's Movie!Goblin's would actually work well for a movie version of the Vulture's bodysuit. It shouldn't be as segmented and robotic looking, but it should look tough, armored and like it could enhance a person's physical strength or ability to take a hit to the body.
One thing that really pissed me off about the Movie!Goblin suit is that, while they put forth dishonest and hypocritical comments about "realism" in the film, they didn't see fit to change the Goblin's boots into something that could actually protect his ankles while he rode that glider. In my movie, I'd have the Goblin's boots be very similar to ski boots, making it very unlikely his ankles will snap if he takes a wrong tilt while flying. I was about to say that the Vulture's boots don't need that same degree of reinforcement, but I'm thinking maybe that isn't true. Would it be better for a foot to ground landing if a person. had ski boots on than just reinforced, calf-reaching boots? In any case, I'd give the Vulture suit the necessary modifications to protect him, such as a crash helmet, neck brace (which I suppose would a little like a Vulture's feather-mane) and at the very, very least, protective goggles.

In any case, thanks for the input.

 

[Herr Logan]

of course the batmobile is a neccesity. I couln't think of too many things in Batman thats not a neccesity, everything works so well together. The only thing i can think of as expendable is the trophy room and Jason Todd(who may or may not become more important in the next few months).

You're talking about an entire franchise, as opposed to the first movie, right?

I wouldn't think Jason Todd, or even Dick Grayson would be appropriate for a first film if the franchise is to begin quite early in the Batman's career.


I would definitely want to bring in Robin if a faithful, intelligently done film franchise were to yield at least 3 or 4 films. I don't know if I'd bring him in in the third, but by the fourth, it'd be past time.

I'd have Dick Grayson be about 15 or 16, fully trained in acrobatics and in great shape, and with a heart full of vengeance when he first meets Bruce Wayne. I'd have it be a mix between 'Dark Victory' and the 'Robin's Reckoning' episodes from the Animated Series, but also with an underlying theme of Batman's acknowledgement of his own mortality. He'll need an heir to the mantle to carry on his mission, and Alfred (who is even more likely to outlive the Batman than vice versa, considering the danger the vigilante puts himself in every night), brilliant and capable as he is, just isn't going to cut it.

The mobster Tony Zucco sabotages the Flying Graysons' trapeze wires to prove to Haley-- the circus owner who won't let his circus become a front for Zucco's smuggling operation-- that he means business and won't take "no" for an answer. Dick's parents die in the middle of their routine during a show, where Bruce Wayne is in the audience. Bruce takes the young orphan in, and is troubled when Dick repeatedly sneaks out of the mansion at night and makes his way into Gotham City (which is a a real trip for the boy, as Wayne Manor is actually in Gotham County, not Gotham City across the bridge), looking for information that will lead him to Zucco. The Batman recognizes that Dick is a physically powerful young man and he could, if he doesn't get himself killed, turn into a real threat on the streets if he lets vengeance consume him. Thus, he trains Dick in combat and detective work, giving him a focus and purpose, while Zucco has gone into hiding after hearing the Batman is looking for him. Dick gets a costume of his own (which will look like a much darker-toned version of the Tim Drake/TAS Grayson uniform, not the one with pixie shoes and no leggings), the self-chosen codename Robin, and is allowed to accompany the Batman in the field, to be present when Zucco is caught, beaten and turned over to the police. After that's done, Robin wants to keep at it. Knowing that Dick now has a taste for crime-fighting, he decides to keep him on as an apprentice, so he can keep him under control and also so they can fill a void in each other's lives. Bruce feels more fulfilled by giving the young man a purpose and discipline, and Dick feels like he has a family with Bruce and Alfred as well as respected by being allowed to help the Batman. Personality-wise, Robin would be somewhat brooding and solemn, but at times pretty light-hearted, especially compared to the Batman. By the end of the film, Robin will have confronted a hardened criminal (other than Zucco) and genuinely put some honest terror into him, much as the Batman would have done. He learns the Batman's methods, but has a little fun while fighting criminals and moving across the city above street level.

I don't think the presence of Robin automatically destroys the credibility of the Batman as a movie character at all. It can be done seriously and respectfully, if filmmakers just decide to do so.

 

[Zaphod]

I hope you're not planning to have the Penguin attempt or even threaten to destroy Gotham City or a large part of it. That's not his style, and he has very little to gain from such a move. People like R'as Al Ghul would do it for zealous political reasons, and Joker would do it for the love of destruction and terror (and greed, of course), but the Penguin is both sane and pragmatic. He tries not to $hit where he eats for the most part, and wouldn't want to make Gotham City a place where he couldn't live. He's just out for profit and vengeance on particular individuals. The Penguin from 'Batman Returns' had an apocalyptic plan for the children of Gotham and then everyone else, but that's completely off-base. I don't want to see that again for that character.

Not quite, no. I have been having quite a bit of trouble coming up with a nicely flowing, coherent plot for the Penguin to be a part of, while trying to avoid tying him in to Falcone's role for conveniance, which I have attempted to avoid at the best of my ability. At the moment, the plot stands as this:

(Please, input, input, input!!)

Carmine 'The Roman' Falcone is the head of traditional organized-crime in Gotham City. He has most of the politicians and GCPDl that run the city on his payroll. Through a contact in Commisioner Gillian Loeb, an obscenely corrupt cop, Falcone ensures his illegal dealings and businesses are kept safe at street level. The judges and D.A's either payed up or two scared of the mob-boss, ignore the going's on of his criminail practicies with regularity , all the while decaying the streets of Gotham while making a very bad man, very rich indeed.

Every months, Falcone has a classified shipment brought in to Gotham harbour, guarded and exported by armed GCPD, the shipment carries both weapons and drugs, which Carmine then sells on too low level pushers working through his contacts for a tidy sum, who then push the drugs the desperate, and the weapons to the street gang, all the while accumulating more money for both themselves, and another nice cut for Falcone.

However, certain quantities of Falcone's shipments begin to dwindle, as weapons and drugs are seemingly being stolen after they are of loading into Gotham. When some of the GCPD turn up dead at the harbour, with weapons and drugs stolen, Falcone begins to consider a potential rival. The Penguin, the rich and gentleman mobster, has been using the decadent and desperate souls of Crime Alley, to carry out regular theft on Falcone's cargo. Those who live in Crime Alley, the former Park Row, were condemned to a life of poverty, squalor, desperation and violence, as a result of Falcone's organzied-crime flooding the city, and The Penguin (through indirect channels of course, I dont know how he would do it, perhaps you could help me out with this?) has been exploiting such hate and want for vengence to amass for himself an armoury, to one day use in contest to Falcone's position.

The Penguin's exploitation in this aspect, would be a good way to highlight the fact that Batman doesn't bear down hard on everyone with vices, since those who are working indirectly for The Penguins long term gain are only doing so out of their own desperation and weak-will, having already been impoverished by Falcone's criminal machinations. Since you mentioned in your last post about The Penguin working for wealth and vengence, we could at least pin down the vengence part in this scenario, somehow linked to Falcone?

 

[Herr Logan]

Not quite, no. I have been having quite a bit of trouble coming up with a nicely flowing, coherent plot for the Penguin to be a part of, while trying to avoid tying him in to Falcone's role for conveniance, which I have attempted to avoid at the best of my ability. At the moment, the plot stands as this:

(Please, input, input, input!!)

Carmine 'The Roman' Falcone is the head of traditional organized-crime in Gotham City. He has most of the politicians and GCPDl that run the city on his payroll. Through a contact in Commisioner Gillian Loeb, an obscenely corrupt cop, Falcone ensures his illegal dealings and businesses are kept safe at street level. The judges and D.A's either payed up or two scared of the mob-boss, ignore the going's on of his criminail practicies with regularity , all the while decaying the streets of Gotham while making a very bad man, very rich indeed.

Every months, Falcone has a classified shipment brought in to Gotham harbour, guarded and exported by armed GCPD, the shipment carries both weapons and drugs, which Carmine then sells on too low level pushers working through his contacts for a tidy sum, who then push the drugs the desperate, and the weapons to the street gang, all the while accumulating more money for both themselves, and another nice cut for Falcone.

However, certain quantities of Falcone's shipments begin to dwindle, as weapons and drugs are seemingly being stolen after they are of loading into Gotham. When some of the GCPD turn up dead at the harbour, with weapons and drugs stolen, Falcone begins to consider a potential rival. The Penguin, the rich and gentleman mobster, has been using the decadent and desperate souls of Crime Alley, to carry out regular theft on Falcone's cargo. Those who live in Crime Alley, the former Park Row, were condemned to a life of poverty, squalor, desperation and violence, as a result of Falcone's organzied-crime flooding the city, and The Penguin (through indirect channels of course, I dont know how he would do it, perhaps you could help me out with this?) has been exploiting such hate and want for vengence to amass for himself an armoury, to one day use in contest to Falcone's position.

The Penguin's exploitation in this aspect, would be a good way to highlight the fact that Batman doesn't bear down hard on everyone with vices, since those who are working indirectly for The Penguins long term gain are only doing so out of their own desperation and weak-will, having already been impoverished by Falcone's criminal machinations. Since you mentioned in your last post about The Penguin working for wealth and vengence, we could at least pin down the vengence part in this scenario, somehow linked to Falcone?

I like your ideas for Falcone and the police. I'm a little iffy on the Penguin stuff. I don't think it would hurt to put some emphasis on the Penguin exploiting the desperate and needy (keep in mind that, in the end, that's what Falcone and his ilk are doing as well), but I don't want it to come off as too preachy, and I don't want his motives entrenched in pure evil or social class oppression. He's just a greedy, hateful bastard with the brains and will to take what he wants in life, victims be damned. I want him to have the bare-bones criminal mindset, because he's a distinctly different creature from traditional mobsters like Falcone, zealous idealogues like Ra's Al Ghul, and psychotic loose cannons like the Joker. Penguin is the pragmatist you can "reason" with if you put enough muscle to him. Falcone has his twisted, culturally ingrained sense of honor, R'as thinks he's saving the Earth by killing its people, and the Joker is dedicated to chaos seemingly for its own sake. All are selfish, but the Penguin is someone who would, after a beating, admit that's all it is. Well, he should have pretentions of respectability, but it should be obvious that he's "new money," embarrasingly eccentric but still trying a bit too hard to seem like he belongs in the higher class. I wouldn't rule out a personal code of honor for the Penguin completely, and certainly not an illusory standard of civilized conduct, but the Penguin is out for himself in the end, and the difference between dealing with him at least pretending to be civil and dealing with him lashing out violently when someone displeases him may depend on something as trivial as whether he had breakfast that day or whether he has low blood sugar. He's a fake, just like every other villain who affects an air of civility or even nobility, but he's not nearly as good at hiding it as old-school gangsters like Carmine Falcone. Not in the face of other hardened criminals and certainly not the Batman.

That is my personal take on a boiled-down movie incarnation of the Penguin. That is not to say that your ideas weren't valid or good, because I very much think they are. I don't think our points of view are irreconcilable, either.

The issue where we differ the most here is probably the idea that the Penguin has a specific, personal grudge against Carmine Falcone, and the prospect of him directly interfering in the Falcone family operations. If the 'Year One' content and the 'Man Who Falls' content is to fit into the first film, along with material to fill in the gaps, a gang war seems too much to add, and I think that's where a Penguin/Falcone conflict would lead. I also think it's too simplistic to blame the Penguin's hateful nature on something Falcone or someone like him did. The world is full of cruel people of all types, and the Penguin got dealt a bad hand consisting of a dead father, an unstable mother, and a host of peers who tormented him for how he looked. His basis for being evil is much the same as the Scarecrow's, and Dr. Octopus' (who obviously won't be shown in a Batman movie, but he's still a good example). The Mafia makes life hard on a lot of people, but there are forces of work that shape young minds into cesspools of hate and despair that aren't organized or passed down in a strict tradition.

This all ties back to the fact that Bruce Wayne was raised, at least for 8 years, by good people who cared about their fellow humans. Even though his childhood ended all too early and he had to confront evil when he wasn't anywhere near prepared for it, he still follows a good example. In this fictional world (if not the real one), setting a good example for pliable minds is what allows compassion to endure in the face of hardship. Carmine Falcone sets a terrible example in that it's both confusing and destructive, as the consequences of his actions are terrible, but he comes off looking like a strong personality of noble traditions. Commissioner Loeb sets a bad example for the police, allowing corruption to trickle all the way through the ranks. The Penguin couldn't care less who follows his example. As long as he feels respected, feared and comfortable, screw everything else. Who is leaving a positive mark on society in Gotham City? The cop who refuses to be corrupted, the prosecutor who won't back down from the challenges of a broken legal system, and the outraged child that dances with the darkest part of human nature without surrendering to the desire for pure vengeance. And the devoted butler who won't settle for less than a perfectly clean mansion.

Note: I wrote the section above after the following comments, and I'm under the influence of Tylenol PM. If none of this made sense, I'm not surprised.


I had originally intended (not fervently, just as ideas) the vengeance aspect of the Penguin's history to be mentioned via rumors and half-verified facts the Batman picks up while doing reconaissance on the criminal underworld. He learns the Penguin fancies himself a classy gentleman, wants to be a real player in the underworld but has no deep roots like Falcone and other "family men." He also hears rumors that that Oswald Cobblepot, as an adult, took bloody revenge on everyone who bullied him as a child. He lives in luxury, with a collection of fancy artwork (bird-themed, mostly), but has no financial records of having earned enough money to validate his purchases. He keeps the IRS off his case through bribes and such, and he runs a limited but potent gang in an on-going arms dealing operation. He also dabbles in gambling and drugs.

The Penguin's gang are armed with harmless-looking objects that are disguised firearms and other weapons (like umbrellas, but other things as well). He doesn't mass-market these specialized weapons, and he doesn't give his men the best ones; each of his own umbrellas comes with a bullet-proof Kevlar canopy (except for the helicopter ones, which have canopied that break away), but his men do not have this feature. They are loyal to him because they know they aren't smart enough to run his operations as well as he does, but it helps to keep the hardware uneven, just in case someone gets stupid.

Perhaps the Penguin, in the present storyline itself, will execute a lackey who has failed miserably or tried to betray him. Unlike the old-school Mafia culture that Falcone comes from, where whacking someone is done only in the presence of the executioners and in secret (and sometimes with dramatic symbolism, like rats stuffed in the mouth or shot through the eye, etc., depending on the reason why they needed to be whacked), the Penguin will gather his goons in a room and shoot one of them in front of everyone. The Penguin is smart and can manipulate people and events in secret, but he's not a subtle guy. He's not afraid, and the fear he puts into people isn't in the backdrop, like with the Mafia. He's more like the Batman (but ruthless), taking a direct approach and banking on his brains and hired muscle much more than his reputation and connections in the community (since neither of those, for him, stack up against Falcone's). I wanted to keep the Penguin's stuff mostly seperate from Falcone's stuff; it's not that they can't overlap (it's better thant they do in some ways), but it should be made clear that, while for years the Italian Mafia has been running Gotham and the police force, new blood has come along to cut their own slice of the pie. The Penguin should not be said or even hinted to be related to any Mafiosi, nor should he be trying to emulate their way of life. There are no kisses on the cheeks, family dinners or blood oaths for Oswald Cobblepot and his underlings. He doesn't even have a family, and no human friends. The only blood between he and his goons is the blood that gets shed if they screw up, and if anyone thinks it's demeaning to be killed by an umbrella, tough! A new era is dawning, and the Batman has risen just in time to keep it contained.

The police are in Falcone's pocket, all the way up to the Commissioner, and there are other mob families that grudgingly accept Falcone's dominance (the Maronis), while Cobblepot only intersects when he's infringing upon mob territory or if he happens to attend the same opera as Falcone. In fact, that should happen. I think Bruce Wayne, Carmine "the Roman" Falcone, Oswald "the Penguin" Cobblepot, and maybe "Boss" Salvatore Maroni, should attend some high-brow event, and Bruce can get a glimpse of all these players. During this scene, you'll see Falcone talking softly to whichever "family members" accompany him about Cobblepot, showing their view of him as a laughable poser. Falcone, being wise and cautious (not crass and trigger-happy, like in 'Begins') will also say that beneath that cartoonish facade lies a character far less controllable than the birds of prey he collects. He's an animal, with a cunning if short-sighted (in his opinion) mind, and should not be underestimated.

Perhaps Falcone should approach Bruce Wayne at this event, trying to lay the groundwork of a valuable connection, mentioning that their fathers were friends. Bruce would make a remark that politely but clearly conveys that their fathers had nothing in common. He's trying to profile Falcone while letting his barely disguised disdain rule out any further conversations. He plans to visit Falcone under different circumstances and try to put a little fear into him, but he decides to go with the Penguin first, since he knows Falcone won't scare easily and his whole network is too deeply ingrained in Gotham to significantly disrupt in the short term. He'll take on the small fry first, while still collecting evidence and information about the mob. But the Penguin doesn't scare easily, either. In fact, the little man can hold his own, and his birds can send him packing.

The Batman decides to leave the Penguin to enjoy his victory for a while, so he can grow cocky (more than usual, that is), putting his concentration on "the Roman's" empire. Conferring with Lieutenant James Gordon, he gets a feel for the routines and habits of the corrupt police force. Doing surveillance on both the mob and the dirty cops yields evidence he runs by Harvey Dent, making sure the young D.A. will see this through if the Batman continues to collect admissible evidence (photos, recorded conversations, incriminating documents), rather than simply strong-arming every mobbed-up criminal in Gotham (because you know he'd do it, too, or at least try). Dent is on board, and Gordon starts thinking positive (although still apprehensive, as he knows he can't fully trust a character like the Batman) for the first time since he was transferred to Gotham City. The police Commissioner declares the Batman a public menace, presumed armed and dangerous, and sets a large police task force on him.

The Batman stretches himself in all directions, doggedly pursuing evidence against both Falcone's mob and a large portion of the GCPD using detective work and physical and psychological intimidation, still keeping tabs on the Penguin's growing syndicate, and continually responding to emergencies and street crimes in the city. When James Gordon is attacked by several police officers (including Flass, of course) right after the Batman wastes a full night's work following a false lead set up by Falcone's people (they knew he was pursuing a real legal case instead of just attacking crooks head-on, since they have at least one spy in the D.A.'s office and figured out from the evidence that kept turning up there that the Batman was in league with Dent), the strain of his constant heroing and detecting catches up with him and he begins to lose hope again. Was all the training and exposing himself to the cultures of fear and violence for nothing?
When he hears about Flass getting beaten, stripped and tied up, with wounds rumored to be inflicted in a similar, Green Berret-style fashion that Gordon was attacked, he follows the example and pushes on, refusing to let his ally down.

The corrupt police force shouldn't be shown to be as cunning as Falcone, so I don't want them to draw the Batman out on purpose, but somehow the Batman will be caught in a car chase where he has to get out of his vehicle, and a physical confrontation commences. I'm thinking he'll become aware, while trying to evade capture, of an emergency where lives are in danger and he knows that even good police won't be likely to respond, since everyone-- not just the task force-- is supposed to move in on the Batman if he is spotted. He can't ignore it, even if he might get killed or arrested, so he gets out of the car and tends to the emergency. After saving whoever was in danger, the cops are right on his heels, and he has to go all-out with the smoke bombs, flashbangs and tear gas (the latter of which the task force is prepared for, since they're trying to use it on him as well... don't worry, he's got a gas mask, he'll be okay) to keep from getting shot full of holes, and then he pulls his subsonic bat-call trick (inspired by the Penguin's bird attack) and escapes the police.

I don't have specifics in mind for the elements of the case the three crime-fighters of the story are building, but it ends up being substantial enough to scare the dirty cops into plea bargains (which at the very least gets them thrown off the job, if not put in jail or prison) and put many of the mobsters in a position where they're being watched and have to scale back their activity. Falcone is still untouchable legally, but he's taken down a peg. Good people start going to the police academy again, less afraid of being trapped in a corrupt environment than before. Gordon is promoted to Captain, and although the new Commissioner is just as bad, if not worse than Loeb, a precedent has been set and a the ranks are cycling so that, with enough dirty cops put away in the future, the good ones might still be standing and in a position of power. By the third movie, Gordon should be Commissioner.

Having heard about the blow to the mob inflicted by the D.A. and a new crackdown on racketeering and the trafficking of contraband by the police, the Penguin suspects the Batman's hand in the shift in power and has as much evidence of his own crimes and conspiracies destroyed or safely stowed away as possible. He still needs to be put in his place, however, so the Batman returns to where he first confronted the nasty little man. He immediately throws gas capsules into the bird cages that incapacitate the birds, so even if Cobblepot opens them remotely as he did last time, none of them will be able to attack. The Penguin thinks the Batman has killed them, not knowing the Batman has compunctions about killing non-human animals and not knowing for sure he wouldn't kill a person, either. The Batman then knocks out all the lights with shuriken or Batarangs and blocks the light of the city and moon coming through the window with smoke. Easily overpowering the Penguin and manually breaking his umbrella-gun, he shoves him out the window, dangling him over the street several stories below. He tells him in no uncertain terms that if he finds any evidence that the Penguin is responsible or part to the distribution or manufacturing of weapons or drugs, or is involved in any violent crime activity, he'll make him regret it dearly. He can't even so much as back loan sharks, since that easily degenerates into retributive violence. That basically leaves just gambling operations as a low priority the Penguin can content himself with, if he behaves himself. Step out of line, and the crooked bastard will wish he was never born.
Oh, and his beloved birds aren't dead... this time.

His suped-up sports car Batmobile was impounded by the police, and the Batman isn't going to ask if he can get it back. Some schematics for a new Batmobile are seen in the Batcave, complete with jet/turbine engine and afterburner, sophisticated defense systems, night-vision windshield, rear-deploying drag-chute, grappling hooks and anti-pursuit measures (caltrops, smoke-screens and oil-slicks, etc.) and all the fancy stuff we expect from a quality Batmobile. Not all of these features are mentioned or apparent on the visual scematics, but it will be shown that this is the kind of car he's going to build.

Final scene features the, Bat-signal and tentative congratulations and acknowledgments between Gordon and the Batman. I would keep the remark about escalation from 'Begins,' because I think that's a good way of putting a pseudo-logical spin on the endless roster of supervillains who appear after the Batman casts his shadow over Gotham. Some of them are just plain crazy, but using outrageous gadgets and unpredictable tactics is the new effective method of throwing one's weight around, which the Penguin already picked up on before the Batman set a more dramatic example.

Damn, that's a lot of crime drama content; I didn't leave any room for a romantic interest. I'll just have to live with that.


Comments?

 

[Herr Logan]

I also want to make the point that once the Batman established his identity by the end of the third act, he will spend more than 50% of his remaining screen time in costume. Any time in the movie (or whole franchise) beyond that point that he is in the Batcave, he will be in costume. Perhaps in no more that 1/3 of that time, he can be in costume with his cowl removed, but the Batcave is for the Batman, not Bruce Wayne, so you stay in character or you don't go in (which is a rule he set up sometime before the story 'Knightfall' in the comics as Robin was required to come in his uniform when entering the cave, not in civvies). This rule doesn't apply to Alfred, however, because you don't cramp that man's style. You just don't.

The important aspects of the Bruce Wayne persona should be displayed in all the scenes where Bruce in in public or in view of civilians. He's a bumbling, shallow playboy who has very good intentions but a non-existent work-ethic and a taste for the easy life. That was set up extremely well in 'Batman Begins,' except for the scene where he meets Rachel outside the hotel he just bought.

Only Leslie Thompkins, in this movie, at least, will have that effect on Bruce, and not in view of other people. She'll see him acting like a fool and show disappointment, and he'll excuse himself. Later on, I'm thinking perhaps Leslie should figure out that the Batman is Bruce Wayne when she catches the cloaked figure dropping two roses on the exact spot where the Waynes were gunned down, at precisely 10:47pm (which is the exact time they were killed, and the combination to the grandfather clock entrance of the Batcave in the study) on the anniversary of their deaths; something Bruce did every year with her before he left to travel the world. She is also paying her respects, but not necessarily purposefully choosing that exact time (she's not the exacting machine that Bruce has become). After she calls him by name, they'll retire to her home or clinic (if there's even a difference) and talk privately. She'll voice her reservations but will concede that Bruce Wayne has resurrected the Wayne Foundation charity organization that whomever was running Thomas Wayne's businesses let go to rot (a CEO William Earle type) and directed its benefits to the purpose of helping the victims of crime and preventing it in the first place. She will also concede, very grudgingly, that the Batman isn't the worst thing that could have resulted from Bruce's inability to move past his parents' deaths. She isn't very thrilled with Alfred having helped him out, but she realizes-- again, very grudgingly-- that Alfred played an equal role in making sure Bruce didn't turn into a ruthless, revenge-driven killer as she tried to. Alfred is helping Bruce stay alive and stay sane, and while she's an idealist who is loathe to "settle" for the lesser of several evils, she lives, alert, in a world where the best you can do is the best you can do. The Batman lets his guard down a bit with Leslie, similarly to when he's around Alfred. Leslie will ask him to remove his mask for her, so she can truly know it is him and begin to live with it.


I figure there can be a background sub-plot concerning the state of Wayne Enterprises as well as well as the Wayne Foundation, similar to 'Begins,' but without any microwave emmiters or whatever. Perhaps Bruce could bring the company back into his control the same way he did it in 'Begins,' by just happening to come back home just before the company goes public and grabbing up every share of stock he can as soon as possible. He does not have an ideal executive to run the company, but he's damn sure going to be the one to decide when he finds one. Bruce should break the news to whichever unethical bastard was running the show beforehand in such a way that the audience gets a glimpse of Bruce Wayne as a smart man who plays the fool when it suits him. That's one of the very few concessions I'm willing to make to the school of thought that says that Bruce Wayne is a real person instead of a shell facade for a tragic figure with one sole purpose. Like I said before, he will lower his guard around Alfred and Leslie (to varying degrees) and can exchange in wry banter with his faithful servant like he did in 'Begins' (because he does so in the comics, which is priceless and can't be left out), but outside the cave and in front of anyone else, he's either almost all liesure or all business. Anway, I've digressed yet again.

While I absolutely love the dynamic between Bruce and Lucious Fox in 'Begins', I feel that if I'm going to take an idea that has been used in another movie, it should be a faithful one, and what we saw in 'Begins' isn't faithful. Lucious Fox isn't a scientist and, to my knowledge, didn't work with Thomas Wayne. He was a hard-sought-after business leader who can keep a company's profits up and strives to do it in an ethical fashion. Bruce deliberately sought him out and emphatically invited to be the CEO of his company. That's how it was written in the narrative of the 'Knightfall' text novel, and I believe it. I'd like Fox to accept Bruce's offer by the end of the first movie or the beginning of the second. Bruce can't run his own company because, while he'd probably be good very at it if he applied himself, his most valuable strengths lie elsewhere, and with people like Lucious Fox around (which is exceptionally lucky for Bruce), the handling of the corporate side of things can be left to, as Thomas Wayne said in 'Begins', "more interested men." I would like an emphasis placed on Bruce working closely with the Foundation, however. He is a philanthropist, and I want it to be an important point that the person born Bruce Wayne is now a true hero who helps as many people as possible on opposite ends of the spectrum, using every resource he has. I want this character to be truly dark and tragic, with the good he constantly does being the balancing factor. If nothing else, it's a way to prove to Leslie Thompkins that Bruce really can have it both ways, at the cost of being happy and psychologically healthy.


Comments?

 

[Zaphod]

Ok, Herr, good notes indeed.

Let me begin my response *inhales*.

First off, I agree that the decadent, but good natured playboy side of Bruce's character should be explored in this first movie. He is, as you say, a well meaning philanthropist, who otherwise enjoys resting back and allowing his profits and donations do the work. Since this is the case, we could easily feature in a similar sub-plot to that used in Begins, with Bruce taking back his Father's company, aswell as the Wayne Foundation, through buying up all the shares behind the scenes, before the company goes public. We could also show Bruce at some sort of party-conference, donating money to an organised charity in Gotham (whether this is feasible only after Bruce has taken back the company at the climax of the movie, I'll leave for you to decide.)

One thing I would like to make clear, is that I strongly endorse the re-emergance of the Bruce Wayne persona, after that of Batman's emergence in Gotham. For one thing, Bruce, on returning to Gotham after his training and after having been defeated in his first night out whilst wearing regular street-wear, would be busy preparing and constructing the Batcave, aswell as his alter-ego, and the costume and gagedtry that goes with it. I imagined that by manipulating the shipping services of Wayne Industry (through hacking and computing in the Batcave, forging orders, arranging deliveries etc), Bruce would arrange and then await the shipments delivery (which would consist of material, equipment and chemicals, that when assembled would make up his smoke bombs, batarangs, grappling gun, costume etc) at the docks, disguised as a maintenance worker, off-loading cargo and such like, before taking them back to the Manor.

After the Batman persona has made it's mark on Gotham City, after a certain period of time Bruce would then reinstate his playboy persona into the high life of Gothams wealthy, aswell as in Wayne Industries (given how the movie would be edited, the time between the Batman in Gotham, and then Bruce, could be expressed as a lengthy enough time, without appearing so).

I was originally going to use the docks of Gotham's shipping-goods as a key point of interest for the Batman's investigation. Aswell as having his own much needed good's delivered there for his "war on crime", Bruce (as Batman) would investigate and discover it's use as a way of exporting Falcone's weapons and drugs into the city (the shipments would be safe-guarded by armed GCPD on Carmine's payroll). I imagined this scenario as being the Batman surveying a transaction of 'classified-cargo', exported from the docks too unmarked vans, and then driven-off. All the while, as the transaction goes on, a good deal of Falcone's men, aswell as the bent cops (Flass in tow, minding his cops side of the operation) would be ensuring all goes well with the operation. The Batman would spy on them with his night-vision lenses (it would be at night of course) and would snap pictures on a hi-tech camera, which would neither sound or flash, and could develop pictures in NV. After awhile of this, the Batman would come out of hiding, although he would still conceal himself using the dark and shadow, and play up his theatrics, while terrifying Falcone's men and the GCPD. Flass would get away, but not before ordering all the vans packed with the cargo to quickly make their escape to the drop of point. As the cargo gets away in the vans, the Batman would beat and string up the rest of Falcone's muscle and the GCPD (others would have fled, had they not been driven off at Flass's order), and would leave them incompacitated next to the remaining drugs and weapons.

However, the next day, the result of Batman's antics doesn't go as Bruce expected. Those of Carmine's men left at the scene by Batman have been arrested for the 'smuggling of illegal and stolen materials', however their incarceration does not bring about the exposing of Falcone (as Batman expected it would). I imagine that Falcone, after promptly being informed the next day on what happened at the docks, has his own men arrested, ordering too Commisioner Loeb that they are to be brought up on charges very seperate from anything that can be traced back to himself. The GCPD strung up at the scene would be publicly stated as having 'intercepted a secret-smuggling ring of drugs and guns from an unknown source, but were intercepted further by a vigilante who is both armed and dangerous'. Loeb is clearing his own cops out of potential *****, aswell as defending Falcone's name. Sure there were sacrifices (Falcone having his own men put away to protect his name and that of those cops on his payroll, who are valuable an asset), and while Falcone grudges his minor loss of muscle, he knows it was neccesary. Meanwhile, while the cops and Falcone now know they have something on their hands in the form of some 'bat-like demon' (the GCPD left at the scene might have escaped a conviction and jail, but there damn well terrified and babbling about it. That "something" dwells in the Batcave, having learnt exposing Falcone isnt going to be as easy as first thought, and plan further his mission for brining him, aswell as the rest of organized- crime, down. The investigation can really begin.

After these events, which would take place at the beggining of the third act, the Batman would establish his connections with Gordan and later on Dent, and begin his investigation proper into Falcone's criminal operations. One scenario I would have is Bruce Wayne, again disguised as a lowly worker, visiting the docks in daylight, and after sneaking about a little, takes some shots of a cargo-manifest which details a 'classified-shipment, unmarked'. At the same time, Bruce would also note a routine, and obscenely large quantity shipment of exotic bird-seed making it's way into Gotham harbour. Noting this down for it's oddity, Bruce pays it little attention, until later on (when at the opera scene you mentioned, with Falcone family, Cobblepot, and the Maroni's) Bruce gathers intell on The Penguin (perhaps Bruce has planted microphones in all three of the key player's booths), and linking what he found at the docks (the large deliveries of bird-seed) with the profile of Cobblepot (it would be mentioned he's bird-keeping and fascination), discovers a new0lead and another name in Gotham's underworld who needs bringing down.

From here, Batman would later pay a visit to The Penguin, and cue the first big action 'Batman vs. Villain' set-peice of the movie, in the first Penguin/Batman meeting you described. Batman's 'motus-operandi' for going to the Penguin in the first place, would be as I say, to "kill-two-birds-with- one-stone" (you like that dont you ), in that he wants both information from him on Falcone's operation, and also with the intention on putting some fear into the birded foe, to bring his criminal antics down a peg or two.

Throughout the investigation Batman makes into the GCPD corruption, and Falcone's operations in organzied-crime all over Gotham, the Batman should make use of documents and files, secretly-recorded conversations, prints, and all the the other crime-scene investigation equipment used in conjunction with exposing a culprit (in this case, Commisioner Loeb). I haven't planned out the ins and outs of the evidence which will be brought against the Commisioner, or the way in which it will incriminate him aswell as how Batman will collect it, past what I've described above. If Falcone is only to be weakend in the movie, how would it be done? Would Batman threaten evidence and force Falcone to relinquish a great deal of his practices, or would Batman lay waste by force to some of Falcone's practises/operations when he knows there isn't evidence to formulate a complete conviction?

The Penguin would be kept seperate from Falcone's machinations in the movie, with all Cobblepots character analogy intanct which you mentioned in your last post.

Talking about the Batmobile, how about about if Bruce modified a black-sports car from his Fathers own former personal-collection? Batman Forever, in the very least it did well, showed to us a hefty garage with plenty of priceless automobiles belonging, or at least inherited to Bruce. I wouldn't mind seeing a garage similar to that in 'The Batman', with Bruce working on one to modify into the first Batmobile (again, he would get the equipment neccesary to make the changes through Wayne Industries, and the shipping). The idea of having the first one impounded by the Police is a good idea, only for Bruce to begin plans on another, more improved version. Batman should also have a motorcycle, used in such cases as speeding alleyway-pursuits and the like (in any case where a car would be too large or inable). This would probaly be better if left too a second movie though.

Would you have Batman pay his second visit to The Penguin at the end of the first movie (after the general investigation of this plot is over), or would it be featured before hand, mid-way? The way you made it sound is that you'll be ending the Batman's exploits in this first movie on his second visit to The Penguin, but i'm not to sure about this. I would also like to introduced Lucious Fox by the end of the movie, perhaps as a moment very end as a way to set the character up for the next movie. I would have Bruce mention and hint at a new arrival at Wayne Industries throughout the movie whenever his is in 'playboy Bruce Wayne', and then those clues and tips of the hat would be made clear when Fox enters at the end as the new CEO.

Thought's on that?