Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

[Herr Logan]

My blueprint for a Black Panther movie.

For one thing, I'd like to go in a very real-world feeling. The only obvious sci-fi elements would be Black Panther's suit (which would be very Tom Clancy, "just around the corner" kind of stuff. No laser beams or teleport beams) and vibranium. And none of this inferiority complex Hudlin bull either. Wakanda is basically a very prosperous and rich nation (the jewel of Africa, say) but not a utopia.

Second, start out with the Black Panther well into his career. T'Chaka has already freed his people from their former oppressors and set up Wakanda as a formidable entity, the equal of America or Russia. Most of its economy is based on vibranium, which among its many uses can be turned into (say it with me now) a weapon who's user is invincible. So let's say that our Black Panther, a Wesley Snipes/Djimon Hounsou type, is experienced, lethal, a mastermind... generally someone you don't want to mess with. But with a character so inscrutable you need an "in," a character the audience can relate to (so when the main character goes "We can't do that!" someone in the movie can say "Why?" so the main character can say "Because..." and then the audience says "Ah" and all is right with the world). Think Wolverine and Rogue in X-Men or Watson in the Sherlock Holmes mythos.

In this case, it'll be Luke Charles. Orphan. His mother died a few years ago. He never knew his father. Luke Charles is studying for the bar in the Greater New York area. A brilliant legal mind, he nevertheless has a flaw that will have thematic similarity in T'Chaka and in Wakanda as a whole. Isolationism. He keeps to himself, is unwilling to fight for anything as long as his life is not in direct danger. This being the movies, he'll of course get an attitude adjustment as things go on. But first, let's illustrate the problem. On a quiet evening, he sees two racist cops harassing another black man. He could speak up but... he doesn't.

That night, a team of Marines suddenly deploys in his campus. He's quickly "extracted" from his dorm and loaded onto a Black Hawk helicopter, opposite U.S. Ambassador Everett K. Ross. Ross is ambassador to Wakanda, and since Wakanda wants nothing to do with... well, anyone, it's pretty much a do-nothing job. He got it because his father is a powerful Washington insider. He spends his days practicing his golf stroke... until one day, out of the blue, the Wakandan embassy issued a simple threat/request. Bring Luke Charles to us... or else.

Needless to say, Ross hopped to. In short order it turns out that Luke Charles is in reality T'Challa... T'Chaka's bastard son by an aide worker who visited Wakanda. T'Chaka allowed T'Challa to be raised in America to be protected from his political enemies (such as Erik Killmonger, the next in line for the throne... until T'Challa's existence was revealed) and to get the best education possible (like I said, Wakanda wasn't always the powerhouse it is now).

On the way to Wakanda, T'Challa's flight has a stopover in a wartorn neighboring country. An ethnic cleansing campaign is underway. T'Challa is shocked at the brutal conditions... and even more shocked when he sees the pristine, high-tech world of Wakanda. There, T'Challa begins training with the father he never knew he had, while trying to manuever through the political intrigue of the kingdom. He has to deal with assassins and Killmonger, who isn't happy about having his lust for power denied. Finally, it comes to light that Killmonger has been stealing weapons from the royal armory and smuggling them to the regime in the neighboring country. Killmonger isn't particular about which country he rules. He's using his weapons to take control of a neighboring country... and extermining all the dissidents with his shock troops.

T'Chaka's reaction is... nothing. His responsibility is to Wakanda and this doesn't affect Wakanda. Why should he care? Because they're people, T'Challa argues. After a inspiring speech from the changed T'Challa, T'Chaka agrees to fight against Killmonger.

The Wakandan army clashes with Killmonger's troops in a huge action setpiece. As T'Chaka directs the action from his command center, T'Challa is on the front lines... in the uniform of the Black Panther. He and Killmonger meet on the battlefield (that's how these things usually work).

"I ALWAYS should have been the Black Panther, outsider. You're nothing but a pretender to the throne and the mask," he hisses. "You're going to die today and for what? A people who are not even your own."

"All men are my people."

Followed by Black Panther doing something stupendously clever which sends Killmonger to his grave. Wakanda defeats the enemy army.

At the victory celebration, T'Chaka tells T'Challa he's proud of him. And now... he's going on a well-deserved vacation. Over T'Challa's protests, T'Chaka tells him that it's his country now... don't screw it up.

"But don't worry, I'll check in now and then to make sure you're not in over your head."

The next day brings a new leadership. Wakanda's borders are open. Doctors and other relief workers swamp the neighboring countries, bringing humanitarian relief. Moreover, T'Challa has opened up preliminary trade agreements with the rest of the world, loaning amounts of vibranium to other countries for scientific research. One batch of vibranium finds its way to a secret base, where a metal hand caresses it. Klaw has begun to draw his plans against Wakanda..

Nice. Very nice.

I don't know much about the Black Panther, other than the basis information I've read, so I can't say much on this subject.

Was Killmonger (tee hee, I just love names like that) a real character in the comics?

 

[Zev]

Yes. You think I could come up with a name like that on my own?

 

[Herr Logan]

Yes. You think I could come up with a name like that on my own?

I thought maybe you were just tired and settled for an easy one.

 

[Zaphod]

My idea for a Batman costume re-design:

• There would be a thin layer of chest armour, it would be strong but allow for a great deal of mobility. It would be material based, but increasingly resilient to knife strikes, not gunshots.
• Atop of this would be a dark grey overall, fairly tight fitting but not as much as the armour underneath, it would be only slightly (and I mean slightly) bulkier.
• The bat insgina. Classic black bat, not yellow oval. This would be elevated from the suit, not a print, and would occasionaly perhaps catch bullets.
• The trunks would be modelled onto the suit, but not highlighted by being black, just have them as grey (seeing as how the suit is going to be grey anyway).
• The gloves will still be black, and have the gauntlets the same, but also have Bruce wear layers of white bandage underneath them, over his hands.
• The belt would be drastically changed, a military design with material pouches, a dark brown/bage colour, not bright yellow.
• The cape keep the same. Just a comment on the cape though...have Batman adopt the same tactic in detering gunfire that 'The Shadow' did, by sweeping his cape in ways which will distract gunfire away from bodyparts.
• The cowl should allow for greater mobility, have the neck of the cowl as a thin material layer, like the under-armour, and have that merge into a stronger bulkeir material for the face of the cowl.
• Lenses. Have reflective, not white, lenses.
• Boots, keep the same.

 

[Herr Logan]

My idea for a Batman costume re-design:

• There would be a thin layer of chest armour, it would be strong but allow for a great deal of mobility. It would be material based, but increasingly resilient to knife strikes, not gunshots.
• Atop of this would be a dark grey overall, fairly tight fitting but not as much as the armour underneath, it would be only slightly (and I mean slightly) bulkier.
• The bat insgina. Classic black bat, not yellow oval. This would be elevated from the suit, not a print, and would occasionaly perhaps catch bullets.
• The trunks would be modelled onto the suit, but not highlighted by being black, just have them as grey (seeing as how the suit is going to be grey anyway).
• The gloves will still be black, and have the gauntlets the same, but also have Bruce wear layers of white bandage underneath them, over his hands.
• The belt would be drastically changed, a military design with material pouches, a dark brown/bage colour, not bright yellow.
• The cape keep the same. Just a comment on the cape though...have Batman adopt the same tactic in detering gunfire that 'The Shadow' did, by sweeping his cape in ways which will distract gunfire away from bodyparts.
• The cowl should allow for greater mobility, have the neck of the cowl as a thin material layer, like the under-armour, and have that merge into a stronger bulkeir material for the face of the cowl.
• Lenses. Have reflective, not white, lenses.
• Boots, keep the same.

Very nice! I like pretty much all of those ideas.

Thanks for chiming in, Zaphod.

I'd still want the trunks to be black, but I don't think it would look out of place considering the gray would be very dark and the shadows cast on the Batman would make the center of his body darker anyway. What do you think of my idea for the trunks being an armored rappelling harness? Here's the description if you didn't read it before:

As I said before, I would definitely have him wear the trunks. It would be a rappelling harness built into a shorts-like garment made of flexible but tough (tougher than the rest of the bodysuit) body armor. By having it built into shorts, the harness will be more easy to put on and take off. This harness contains hidden segmented plates to protect not only the Wayne family jewels as well as his hip bones and groin-area blood vessels. There would also be small hidden pockets in which extra mini-tools can be carried (extra lock picks, miniature rope-cutting knives, etc). In addition to functioning as a regular rappelling harness (can't you just see a carabiner and figure-8 stylized like the rest of the Batman's equipment?) This piece of equipment would help support the Batman while ascending and descending on a jump line when the grapnel is anchored to the belt. Just as a policeman's utility belt is anchored to the trouser belt with keepers, the Batman's utility belt will connect to the shorts/harness. The shorts will keep the belt secure and in place, and vice versa. Everything on the shorts will be as uniformly black as possible, and the entire costume except for maybe the chest insignia would be non-reflective, just like in the comics. In addition, if the Batman had to carry something extra on his person while keeping his hands free, he could attach it to a sling and clip it onto the harness, which has far more room and usable straps than the belt would for this purpose.

Also, I would have some of the body armor in the torso area be protective against bullets. In the official guide to the Batman, it says there are Kevlar panels in the torso that are at least somewhat effective against gunfire. It doesn't mean it's foolproof, though. I still would want his main defense against bullets to be his speed and his ability to divert armed opponents with his cape.

I also would want reflected lenses instead of leaving the eyes exposed. Obviously the cowl and neckpiece especially need work. I would change the cape so that it was scalloped at the bottom at all times

 

[Cullen]

I'm not sure about lenses myself. Better to see the eyes, or to leave the eyes in shadow.

But take that with a grain of salt. I've never seen a Batman outside of the comics and the cartoon with lenses. It could work, I suppose. Though I think a dirty white, sort of grey would be better than either white or reflective.

 

[Zaphod]

Very nice! I like pretty much all of those ideas.

Thanks for chiming in, Zaphod.

I'd still want the trunks to be black, but I don't think it would look out of place considering the gray would be very dark and the shadows cast on the Batman would make the center of his body darker anyway. What do you think of my idea for the trunks being an armored rappelling harness? Here's the description if you didn't read it before:


Also, I would have some of the body armor in the torso area be protective against bullets. In the official guide to the Batman, it says there are Kevlar panels in the torso that are at least somewhat effective against gunfire. It doesn't mean it's foolproof, though. I still would want his main defense against bullets to be his speed and his ability to divert armed opponents with his cape.

I also would want reflected lenses instead of leaving the eyes exposed. Obviously the cowl and neckpiece especially need work. I would change the cape so that it was scalloped at the bottom at all times

Thanks alot, Herr Logan

Your idea on the rappel harness is great, I detract my suggestion of grey modeled trunks as result, and replace it with the idea of yours. I like the way it gives a functional, practical reason for the trunks, gets rid of any suggested camp aspect to them, and remains even more faithful to the costume from the comics.

I did some searching on google for pictures of possible rappel harnesses which could be used, or at least resemble a possible design for Batman.

May be overkill, but I felt the need for reference. The far right and left images work if you'd prefer to have the utility belt connected to the rappel harness. Where's the central image would allow for far more mobility by the looks of it.

EDIT: I'm aware they are not armoured harnesses in those images, but the template could at least provide an idea for rough design for the visual aspect of how we would see them in the movie.

 

[Herr Logan]

I'm not sure about lenses myself. Better to see the eyes, or to leave the eyes in shadow.

But take that with a grain of salt. I've never seen a Batman outside of the comics and the cartoon with lenses. It could work, I suppose. Though I think a dirty white, sort of grey would be better than either white or reflective.

Actually, a grayish tint would be a better color for lenses. Good idea, Cullen.

 

[Herr Logan]

Thanks alot, Herr Logan

Your idea on the rappel harness is great, I detract my suggestion of grey modeled trunks as result, and replace it with the idea of yours. I like the way it gives a functional, practical reason for the trunks, gets rid of any suggested camp aspect to them, and remains even more faithful to the costume from the comics.

I did some searching on google for pictures of possible rappel harnesses which could be used, or at least resemble a possible design for Batman.

(Had to take out the images because they're limiting us to 7 per post now)

May be overkill, but I felt the need for reference. The far right and left images work if you'd prefer to have the utility belt connected to the rappel harness. Where's the central image would allow for far more mobility by the looks of it.

EDIT: I'm aware they are not armoured harnesses in those images, but the template could at least provide an idea for rough design for the visual aspect of how we would see them in the movie.

Exactly! A good framework for the harness would be something as supportive as the far right picture, in the angled design of the far left picture. The framework would be smooth and essentially a skeleton for a piece of equipment that basically looks like swim trunks or whatever people think the Batman wears in the comics. The trunks are a non-reflective black color and reinforced with plate armor, although perfectly flexible in all the right places so he can perform any martial arts maneuver, etc.

Just as a police officer's utility belt is mounted to his/her trouser belt with things called keepers, the Batman's belt would hook onto a belt that is threaded through loops on the trunks/harness.

A trouser belt:

Keepers (they go between pouches and holsters around the two belts to secure them):

A utility belt:

A pouch:

That pouch is actually a glove carrying case for examinations at a crime scene (something the Batman may or may not need, as he is already wearing gloves and either sterilizes his gloved hands between crime scenes or uses swaps and other implements to take samples for his forensics kit). I took all of these from Galls.com, a law enforcement equipment website. It was my vision that most of his equipment should be modeled on that used by law enforcement, military and intelligence agents, but as much as possible should be modified visually to conform to his bat-motif in order to maintain his psychological warfare campaign and to keep himself focused by the totemic "becoming" effect that wearing a mask and costume has on him.

 

[Zaphod]

Exactly! A good framework for the harness would be something as supportive as the far right picture, in the angled design of the far left picture. The framework would be smooth and essentially a skeleton for a piece of equipment that basically looks like swim trunks or whatever people think the Batman wears in the comics. The trunks are a non-reflective black color and reinforced with plate armor, although perfectly flexible in all the right places so he can perform any martial arts maneuver, etc.

Just as a police officer's utility belt is mounted to his/her trouser belt with things called keepers, the Batman's belt would hook onto a belt that is threaded through loops on the trunks/harness.

A trouser belt:


Keepers (they go between pouches and holsters around the two belts to secure them):


A utility belt:

A pouch


That pouch is actually a glove carrying case for examinations at a crime scene (something the Batman may or may not need, as he is already wearing gloves and either sterilizes his gloved hands between crime scenes or uses swaps and other implements to take samples for his forensics kit). I took all of these from Galls.com, a law enforcement equipment website. It was my vision that most of his equipment should be modeled on that used by law enforcement, military and intelligence agents, but as much as possible should be modified visually to conform to his bat-motif in order to maintain his psychological warfare campaign and to keep himself focused by the totemic "becoming" effect that wearing a mask and costume has on him.

Great job!

When it comes to Batmans utility belt, I am a seriously fussy S.O.B. I didn't despise the Begins belt out of hand, I do dislike it's rigid design, but that design fits the rest of the outfit in the sense it is technologically advanced in both design and function (no need for pouches, some form of clip on device). That's all well and good, but in keeping with the tailor made look this imaginitive suit will have, (albeit, very impressively tailor made) the belt needs to keep in tow with that design and have a military professionalism about it.

The design of the pouches should be very close to these in my opinion. I would of course have more pouches so the belt itself isn't to clearly visible, only the buckle. And the belt itself would be of thicker and larger design, although not so much as to hamper any of the combat and agility Batman will be needing to engage in.

Top design especially:

Concerning the proxiomity of how close the pouches should be together on the belt, it should resemble this:

 

[Cullen]

Actually, a grayish tint would be a better color for lenses. Good idea, Cullen.

Always glad to be a productive portion of a conversation.

 

[Zev]

Thanks alot, Herr Logan

Your idea on the rappel harness is great, I detract my suggestion of grey modeled trunks as result, and replace it with the idea of yours. I like the way it gives a functional, practical reason for the trunks, gets rid of any suggested camp aspect to them, and remains even more faithful to the costume from the comics.

I did some searching on google for pictures of possible rappel harnesses which could be used, or at least resemble a possible design for Batman.

May be overkill, but I felt the need for reference. The far right and left images work if you'd prefer to have the utility belt connected to the rappel harness. Where's the central image would allow for far more mobility by the looks of it.

EDIT: I'm aware they are not armoured harnesses in those images, but the template could at least provide an idea for rough design for the visual aspect of how we would see them in the movie.

"What's with all the talk of rappel lines? You one of those guys who explores caves?"

"Spelunker?"

"No, but I'm hoping to this weekend."

 

[Herr Logan]

Great job!

When it comes to Batmans utility belt, I am a seriously fussy S.O.B. I didn't despise the Begins belt out of hand, I do dislike it's rigid design, but that design fits the rest of the outfit in the sense it is technologically advanced in both design and function (no need for pouches, some form of clip on device). That's all well and good, but in keeping with the tailor made look this imaginitive suit will have, (albeit, very impressively tailor made) the belt needs to keep in tow with that design and have a military professionalism about it.

The design of the pouches should be very close to these in my opinion. I would of course have more pouches so the belt itself isn't to clearly visible, only the buckle. And the belt itself would be of thicker and larger design, although not so much as to hamper any of the combat and agility Batman will be needing to engage in.

Top design especially:

Concerning the proxiomity of how close the pouches should be together on the belt, it should resemble this:

Thanks, Zaphod.

Basically I would have had the nylon belt with pouches for the first movie and then bring in the ultra high-tech diagrammed in Batman: the Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight' in the second or third one. The Batman is an expert tactician and he's all about the gadgets and detective tools. I love the fact that he can fit all that stuff into one belt. The important thing to do is to make sure he's not just pulling freaky tactical items out all the time. I want to see the gas mask, the first aid kit, and above all the crime scene forensics kit.

Unfortunately I can't find a picture online of the page spread in the book I'm talking about.

 

[Herr Logan]

"What's with all the talk of rappel lines? You one of those guys who explores caves?"

"Spelunker?"

"No, but I'm hoping to this weekend."

Heh!!

 

[Zev]

TEEN TITANS

Okay, there's no reason why a Teen Titans movie can't work. For one, it's something we haven't seen before: teen superheroes. Spider-Man didn't spend much time being a teenager, the X-Men were all growed up (except for a few junior members), and if you even mention Robin from from the Schumacher movies, I'll be well within my rights to hit you.

Sure, you probably couldn't get Wonder Girl or Kid Flash, but I've always preferred Impulse to Kid Flash (for a unique power, let's give him short bursts of speed instead of continuous superspeed, that'll depower him enough to fit in a team environment) and Wonder Girl was kinda boring anyway (plus, she has a similar "voice" as Robin and seven heroes is stretching it).

As for Robin, you kinda need him to have a Teen Titans, but since from all accounts no one really wants him in the Batman movies, I think the Powers That Be would let him headline a Teen Titans movie.

I'm thinking it should basically be a superhero movie as done by John Hughes. Our six intrepid heroes try to fit in at high school, deal with the pressures of everyday life, and also fight supervillains. Like, for instance, Brother Blood (save Trigon and Blackfire for sequels, but put in some hints in the first movie).

I think Brother Blood is a great choice because, with some subtlety, you'll have some people going "Oh yeah, take THAT, religious fundamentalists!" while others go "take THAT, Islamofascists!" So he's kinda relevant to modern-day issues. Plus, he has the resources to hire our "Darth Vader" villain, Deathstroke.

It's been a while since we had a really good henchman in a superhero movie (except for Mystique and some of the sub-villains in The Punisher, we've had bupkiss) and I really want a guy who can have a long, protacted fight with the hero, thus satisfying us so the main villain can meet a short, sweet, and preferably ironic fate at the hands of the hero (or possibly his own superweapon, while screaming stuff like "You cannot turn against me! I made you!")

 

[Herr Logan]

TEEN TITANS

Okay, there's no reason why a Teen Titans movie can't work. For one, it's something we haven't seen before: teen superheroes. Spider-Man didn't spend much time being a teenager, the X-Men were all growed up (except for a few junior members), and if you even mention Robin from from the Schumacher movies, I'll be well within my rights to hit you.

Sure, you probably couldn't get Wonder Girl or Kid Flash, but I've always preferred Impulse to Kid Flash (for a unique power, let's give him short bursts of speed instead of continuous superspeed, that'll depower him enough to fit in a team environment) and Wonder Girl was kinda boring anyway (plus, she has a similar "voice" as Robin and seven heroes is stretching it).

As for Robin, you kinda need him to have a Teen Titans, but since from all accounts no one really wants him in the Batman movies, I think the Powers That Be would let him headline a Teen Titans movie.

I'm thinking it should basically be a superhero movie as done by John Hughes. Our six intrepid heroes try to fit in at high school, deal with the pressures of everyday life, and also fight supervillains. Like, for instance, Brother Blood (save Trigon and Blackfire for sequels, but put in some hints in the first movie).

I think Brother Blood is a great choice because, with some subtlety, you'll have some people going "Oh yeah, take THAT, religious fundamentalists!" while others go "take THAT, Islamofascists!" So he's kinda relevant to modern-day issues. Plus, he has the resources to hire our "Darth Vader" villain, Deathstroke.

It's been a while since we had a really good henchman in a superhero movie (except for Mystique and some of the sub-villains in The Punisher, we've had bupkiss) and I really want a guy who can have a long, protacted fight with the hero, thus satisfying us so the main villain can meet a short, sweet, and preferably ironic fate at the hands of the hero (or possibly his own superweapon, while screaming stuff like "You cannot turn against me! I made you!")

I meant to write this days ago:

I'm not a fan of Teen Titans (the comic, I mean... it goes without saying that I could never, ever be a fan of anything as horrendous as the Teen Titans cartoon), nor am I very familiar with the franchise. I'd appreciate it if anyone who is familiar with the Teen Titans would give their input regarding Zev's idea.

Thanks for posting, Zev, and I'm sorry I don't have much to say on this subject.

Happy freakin' Holidays, everybody. May the annual spike in the suicide rate not claim you.

 

[Cullen]

Happy freakin' Holidays, everybody. May the annual spike in the suicide rate not claim you.

Hasn't claimed me yet. Just too mean.

Merry Holidays.

 

[GL1]

TEEN TITANS

Okay, there's no reason why a Teen Titans movie can't work. For one, it's something we haven't seen before: teen superheroes. Spider-Man didn't spend much time being a teenager, the X-Men were all growed up (except for a few junior members), and if you even mention Robin from from the Schumacher movies, I'll be well within my rights to hit you.

Sure, you probably couldn't get Wonder Girl or Kid Flash, but I've always preferred Impulse to Kid Flash (for a unique power, let's give him short bursts of speed instead of continuous superspeed, that'll depower him enough to fit in a team environment) and Wonder Girl was kinda boring anyway (plus, she has a similar "voice" as Robin and seven heroes is stretching it).

As for Robin, you kinda need him to have a Teen Titans, but since from all accounts no one really wants him in the Batman movies, I think the Powers That Be would let him headline a Teen Titans movie.

I'm thinking it should basically be a superhero movie as done by John Hughes. Our six intrepid heroes try to fit in at high school, deal with the pressures of everyday life, and also fight supervillains. Like, for instance, Brother Blood (save Trigon and Blackfire for sequels, but put in some hints in the first movie).

I think Brother Blood is a great choice because, with some subtlety, you'll have some people going "Oh yeah, take THAT, religious fundamentalists!" while others go "take THAT, Islamofascists!" So he's kinda relevant to modern-day issues. Plus, he has the resources to hire our "Darth Vader" villain, Deathstroke.

It's been a while since we had a really good henchman in a superhero movie (except for Mystique and some of the sub-villains in The Punisher, we've had bupkiss) and I really want a guy who can have a long, protacted fight with the hero, thus satisfying us so the main villain can meet a short, sweet, and preferably ironic fate at the hands of the hero (or possibly his own superweapon, while screaming stuff like "You cannot turn against me! I made you!")

A VERY good, solid idea, and honsetly, I'm in shock and awe that this kind of plotline for Brother Blood and Slade working together isn't used more often... it's VERY convenient and effective.

I do think it strange to think of the Teen Titans all going to high school together. It is convenient however woudln't it be more in keeping with the comics to have them assemble for the purpose of fighting evil together, while secretly longing for the chance to hang with young people like themselves?

I'm not sure who you had in mind for a lineup, but most of them have great exuses to be anywhere in the country at the drop of a hat, especially if Brother Blood is BRINGING them together for some purpose...

 

[Philly Phanboy]

Here's an article from Sunday's Variety.com:

Kryptonite for comic pix?
Marvel, DC running out of top-tier characters

By STEVEN ZEITCHIK

Are superheroes losing their might in Hollywood?
Though the "Fantastic Four" had a strong December on DVD, the country's two biggest comics purveyors are looking far from invincible.

Marvel ("Spider-Man," "X-Men" and "Fantastic Four") and DC ("Batman," "Superman," "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen") are running out of top-tier characters and face greater competition from non-superhero graphic novels and anime.

Marvel posted dismal earnings this past quarter and projected a revenue decline of up to 30% next year. Its "Ghost Rider" pic was just postponed from summer '06 to February '07 .

Superhero licensing has become big business, much bigger than it was when DC began selling Superman and Batman to Hollywood more than two decades ago. Buoyed by the prospect of tie-ins and new auds, the two firms pushed many properties into development.

But revenue hasn't automatically followed.

For one thing, tie-ins don't always work; Marvel vice chairman Peter Cuneo recently acknowledged that "Fantastic Four" merchandise flopped.

And as the companies dig deeper into their character vaults, prospects get dicier --as evidenced by the lackluster perfs of Marvel's Jennifer Garner starrer "Elektra" ($24 million domestic B.O.) and "The Punisher" ($34 million).

"Marvel and DC talk about all these characters they have, but some of them are so old they have no built-in audience," says one comics insider.

Meanwhile, with the success of bigscreen adaptations like "American Splendor," "Ghost World" and "Sin City," non-superhero comics are piquing producers' interest as never before. "Sin City" grossed $74 million domestic, half the B.O. of "Fantastic Four," on a fraction of the budget. "Hellboy," also from indie comics firm Dark Horse, took in $59 million.

"Marvel and DC have their niches, and they're good at it," says producer Eric Gitter, who runs the production arm of tiny comics outfit Oni Press and will produce the company's "Scott Pilgrim's Precious Little Life" for Universal. "But I don't know if they have the infrastructure to do many other kinds of movies."

The Japanese style of animation known as anime also has captured Hollywood -- at the possible expense of DC and Marvel.

Last summer, Disney distributed "Howl's Moving Castle," from helmer Hayao Miyazaki. L.A.-based manga firm TokyoPop recently pacted with Focus to develop TokyoPop's "Pet Shop of Horrors" series. And Japanese-owned Viz Media has had success with its own DVD line as well as in licensing anime to the Cartoon Network.

Studios like indie comics because rights are less expensive, and indie comic firms like Hollywood because of the promotional benefits . Dark Horse, for example, touted "Sin City's" cult fanbase to attract Dimension, and used the resulting pic to sell hundreds of thousands of comics.

Marvel and DC aren't going away anytime soon. Collectively they still control about two-thirds of the comicbook market, and both are working to reinvigorate their lines.

And DC, at least, is partly reinventing itself with its indie line, Vertigo.

But much of the two companies' biz is still based on decades-old brands. And superheroes, like box office trends, ebb and flow.

"It's a fair question to ask: 'Where are the next DC and Marvel characters coming from?' " says comicbook biz guru Milton Griepp.

Without enough new ideas, Marvel and DC may be drawing their own unhappy endings.

Yeah, it's another of those purely opinion pieces, but it fits the overall theme of this thread. Here are my questions:

• Will recent sloppy/half-a$$ed projects threatening the overall future of the adaptation genre?
  
• Is Marvel's new studio interested in actually creating character franchises or are they just in it for "a quick buck" to cash in on the adaptation trend?
  
• After the big name characters have their shot, will we ever see another non-headliner (like Blade for instance) rack up multiple motion pictures?

 

[Abaddon]

So here's a sort of treatment of the X-men films.What I have so far would work much better as a novellization though,so bear with me.Much of the beginning of the film will be the same except Kitty Pryde will have her own origin added on to the others.So here I go:

The Brotherhood also discovers the location of another mutant(Rogue) and seek her out.Rogue is somewhere between 16 years old.She’s a tough chick,but is still very vulnerable and insecure about her abilities.Some time later,after having run off to Canada,she ends up having a brief encounter with Wolverine.

Wolverine is introduced right off the bat as a man with a bloody history,who is tormented by images of his past.However the images are ones he cant fully recall,and he’s left with a certain lack of self,in that he isnt aware of the person he was before becoming an assassin.

In a bar like the one in the movie,a man tries to get fresh with Rogue.She politely rejects him,but the guy is persistent.Finally she threatens to take him down if he doesn’t leave her alone.The guy grabs her ass and Rogue punches him in the kisser.He gets back up and is ready to retaliate,and Rogue removes her gloves but hesistates for a moment,still being reluctant to use her abilities when Logan intervenes and easily dispatches the creep,revealing his mutant abilities in the process.Rogue is grateful and tries to get know Logan,knowing he was a mutant just like her.Logan is impersonal,and tells her to leave the place saying a young girl her age doesn’t belong there.Rogue sits off to side still keeping a fascinated eye on him.A young woman,no more than a few years older than Rogue walks over.They have a conservation and she quickly takes to Rogue,who is still distrustful even though she desperately wants to connect to someone.(I sort of see her characterization as someone very similar to Faith from Buffy the Vampire Slayer.A strong,spirited,sexually liberated young woman who uses her tough image as a veil hiding her deepest fears.Of course at this point,having recently discovered her abilities,she’s still pretty freaked out.).

Logan leaves and Rogue follows him outside.They continue to talk when Logan suddenly catches a familiar scent.Its Sabretooth come to hunt him down.He shoves Rogue out of the way and engages in a brawl with the savage assassin.Minutes later the X-men(Colossus,Storm,and Cyclops) arrive,having detected Rogue with the help of Cerebro, and get caught up in the battle.The young woman Rogue spoke with, is revealed to be Mystique who calls for backup in the form of Pyro and Toad,who were hidden the bar as well.She figures Logan is one of the X-men,and was trying to coerce Rogue into joining in the same manner she was.They join the fray,and at some point Rogue is knocked unconscious.The Brotherhood take her and escape. Sabretooth ends up impaling Logan on a tree branch and also makes a break for it, believing Wolverine,as he calls him, was saved by his friends.The X-men also consider whether Sabretooth is a new member of the Brotherhood,but are unsure.They take Logan back to the mansion.

 

[Herr Logan]

A VERY good, solid idea, and honsetly, I'm in shock and awe that this kind of plotline for Brother Blood and Slade working together isn't used more often... it's VERY convenient and effective.

I do think it strange to think of the Teen Titans all going to high school together. It is convenient however woudln't it be more in keeping with the comics to have them assemble for the purpose of fighting evil together, while secretly longing for the chance to hang with young people like themselves?

I'm not sure who you had in mind for a lineup, but most of them have great exuses to be anywhere in the country at the drop of a hat, especially if Brother Blood is BRINGING them together for some purpose...

Dude, this was posted several days ago and I didn't notice. How atrocious of me!

Sorry about that, and thanks for commenting, GL1.

 

[Herr Logan]

Here's an article from Sunday's Variety.com:



Yeah, it's another of those purely opinion pieces, but it fits the overall theme of this thread. Here are my questions:

• Will recent sloppy/half-a$$ed projects threatening the overall future of the adaptation genre?
  
• Is Marvel's new studio interested in actually creating character franchises or are they just in it for "a quick buck" to cash in on the adaptation trend?
  
• After the big name characters have their shot, will we ever see another non-headliner (like Blade for instance) rack up multiple motion pictures?

Very interesting. Thanks for posting, Philly.

Marvel Films operates similarly to Marvel Comics in that it at least seems to give the directors or writers, respectively, a lot of freedom in bastardizing and dishonoring decades-old, classic characters as they choose to. It's hard for me to simply say they want to make a "quick buck," only because it does sometimes seem to me that they took some risks when making their poor adaptations. It seems like they took a risk when implanting the substance and style of a typical, insipid chick flick into and action movie with 'Spider-Man 2,' and also in creating 'Hulk' as a shallow, lowest-common-denominator excuse for a pop psychological thriller instead of a serious sci-fi movie. Still, they may well have gotten exactly those types of suggestions from whatever team of psych profilers they hire to help them tailor their half-assed works of art to the needs of the slovenly masses. If they are taking risks instead of playing it safe, then it's out of sheer arrogance, rather than their faith in the source material. I can't tell what's going on in their minds except that it's not is required to make a faithful and truly outstanding comic book movie adaptation.

When I heard on the commentary for the 'Batman: the Animated Series' episode entitled "Read My Lips" that the people representing DC comics were strongly pushing for Scarface to pronounce all his B's as G's, that was refreshing as hell, even if it didn't make it into the finished product. Hell, the production crew may well have been right to keep things simple for the audience and voice actor George Dzundza, leaving out the fact that Arnold Wesker is a sad excuse for a ventriloquist and can't "throw" B's when talking through his puppet. Regardless, at least they cared enough about the uniqueness and completeness of their character that they voiced their concerns and made an argument. As far as I can tell from what I've read and heard, Marvel Comics doesn't take a stand when it comes to that. That's why Movie!Spider-Man had disgusting phallic metaphors (courtesy of James Cameron's childish imagination) on his wrists instead of real web-shooters, why Movie!Wolverine was played blandly by a 6'2" soap star instead of an actor who looks and is willing to act like Wolverine, why Movie!Dr.Octopus was a cuddly mentor-figure instead of a real supervillain and why Movie!GreenGoblin came back in Tim Story's Foxtastic Four movie (with a new costume, different powers much, much, much less personality) to play the villain instead of Dr. Doom. Because they don't stand behind their properties. They ****e all of them out and rest assured that people will not only pay for repeat viewings of these false portrayals but will make impassioned statements like "I have faith in Raimi/Singer/Story/whomever." They've either got a team of focus-group surveyers with expertise to rival the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit profiling abilities, or they're just damn lazy and arrogant. Considering some of the flops they've had, I'm betting on the latter and awaiting future failures.

Damn. That was barely on topic at all. But I've worked too hard to erase it all now. The world will keep spinning, I suppose.

 

[Herr Logan]

So here's a sort of treatment of the X-men films.What I have so far would work much better as a novellization though,so bear with me.Much of the beginning of the film will be the same except Kitty Pryde will have her own origin added on to the others.So here I go:

The Brotherhood also discovers the location of another mutant(Rogue) and seek her out.Rogue is somewhere between 16 years old.She’s a tough chick,but is still very vulnerable and insecure about her abilities.Some time later,after having run off to Canada,she ends up having a brief encounter with Wolverine.

Wolverine is introduced right off the bat as a man with a bloody history,who is tormented by images of his past.However the images are ones he cant fully recall,and he’s left with a certain lack of self,in that he isnt aware of the person he was before becoming an assassin.

In a bar like the one in the movie,a man tries to get fresh with Rogue.She politely rejects him,but the guy is persistent.Finally she threatens to take him down if he doesn’t leave her alone.The guy grabs her ass and Rogue punches him in the kisser.He gets back up and is ready to retaliate,and Rogue removes her gloves but hesistates for a moment,still being reluctant to use her abilities when Logan intervenes and easily dispatches the creep,revealing his mutant abilities in the process.Rogue is grateful and tries to get know Logan,knowing he was a mutant just like her.Logan is impersonal,and tells her to leave the place saying a young girl her age doesn’t belong there.Rogue sits off to side still keeping a fascinated eye on him.A young woman,no more than a few years older than Rogue walks over.They have a conservation and she quickly takes to Rogue,who is still distrustful even though she desperately wants to connect to someone.(I sort of see her characterization as someone very similar to Faith from Buffy the Vampire Slayer.A strong,spirited,sexually liberated young woman who uses her tough image as a veil hiding her deepest fears.Of course at this point,having recently discovered her abilities,she’s still pretty freaked out.).

Logan leaves and Rogue follows him outside.They continue to talk when Logan suddenly catches a familiar scent.Its Sabretooth come to hunt him down.He shoves Rogue out of the way and engages in a brawl with the savage assassin.Minutes later the X-men(Colossus,Storm,and Cyclops) arrive,having detected Rogue with the help of Cerebro, and get caught up in the battle.The young woman Rogue spoke with, is revealed to be Mystique who calls for backup in the form of Pyro and Toad,who were hidden the bar as well.She figures Logan is one of the X-men,and was trying to coerce Rogue into joining in the same manner she was.They join the fray,and at some point Rogue is knocked unconscious.The Brotherhood take her and escape. Sabretooth ends up impaling Logan on a tree branch and also makes a break for it, believing Wolverine,as he calls him, was saved by his friends.The X-men also consider whether Sabretooth is a new member of the Brotherhood,but are unsure.They take Logan back to the mansion.

Sounds familiar, but definitely better than the existing film, so far.

Thanks for posting, Abbadon.

 

[Zev]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting, Philly.

Marvel Films operates similarly to Marvel Comics in that it at least seems to give the directors or writers, respectively, a lot of freedom in bastardizing and dishonoring decades-old, classic characters as they choose to. It's hard for me to simply say they want to make a "quick buck," only because it does sometimes seem to me that they took some risks when making their poor adaptations. It seems like they took a risk when implanting the substance and style of a typical, insipid chick flick into and action movie with 'Spider-Man 2,' and also in creating 'Hulk' as a shallow, lowest-common-denominator excuse for a pop psychological thriller instead of a serious sci-fi movie. Still, they may well have gotten exactly those types of suggestions from whatever team of psych profilers they hire to help them tailor their half-assed works of art to the needs of the slovenly masses. If they are taking risks instead of playing it safe, then it's out of sheer arrogance, rather than their faith in the source material. I can't tell what's going on in their minds except that it's not is required to make a faithful and truly outstanding comic book movie adaptation.

When I heard on the commentary for the 'Batman: the Animated Series' episode entitled "Read My Lips" that the people representing DC comics were strongly pushing for Scarface to pronounce all his B's as G's, that was refreshing as hell, even if it didn't make it into the finished product. Hell, the production crew may well have been right to keep things simple for the audience and voice actor George Dzundza, leaving out the fact that Arnold Wesker is a sad excuse for a ventriloquist and can't "throw" B's when talking through his puppet. Regardless, at least they cared enough about the uniqueness and completeness of their character that they voiced their concerns and made an argument. As far as I can tell from what I've read and heard, Marvel Comics doesn't take a stand when it comes to that. That's why Movie!Spider-Man had disgusting phallic metaphors (courtesy of James Cameron's childish imagination) on his wrists instead of real web-shooters, why Movie!Wolverine was played blandly by a 6'2" soap star instead of an actor who looks and is willing to act like Wolverine, why Movie!Dr.Octopus was a cuddly mentor-figure instead of a real supervillain and why Movie!GreenGoblin came back in Tim Story's Foxtastic Four movie (with a new costume, different powers much, much, much less personality) to play the villain instead of Dr. Doom. Because they don't stand behind their properties. They ****e all of them out and rest assured that people will not only pay for repeat viewings of these false portrayals but will make impassioned statements like "I have faith in Raimi/Singer/Story/whomever." They've either got a team of focus-group surveyers with expertise to rival the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit profiling abilities, or they're just damn lazy and arrogant. Considering some of the flops they've had, I'm betting on the latter and awaiting future failures.

Damn. That was barely on topic at all. But I've worked too hard to erase it all now. The world will keep spinning, I suppose.

Herr, stop holding all that anger in. It's not good for you. C'mon, tell us how you really feel.

 

[Herr Logan]

Herr, stop holding all that anger in. It's not good for you. C'mon, tell us how you really feel.

You blind fool! Can't you see I'm trying to tell you that I love you!