Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

[Herr Logan]

'Second Generation', please my good sir.

Paraphrasin'? What ever do you mean?

*cough*

If I wasn't so lazy, I'd look up the exact quote. But here we are...




I'm a bit torn on this concept, since having the first movie feature the second generation makes me feel a bit obligated to include more members of the original team. Back when John Byrne was doing the art for X-Men, in the late 70's, there were a couple of adventures that included a team consisting of Cyclops, Jean Grey (who was Phoenix at the time), Storm, Wolverine, Colossus, Nightcrawler, Banshee, and Beast. If we took Banshee out and replaced him with Kitty Pride, that would make it the same number of people, but that still stretches things a bit. My original concept featured a team of six, including Kitty. If it was an eight-person team, then Colossus would definitely get the shaft as far as "character development" time is concerned, which would have happened to some degree anyway. He'd get a scene or two where he's painting a picture of... I dunno, a sunset or whatever, and talking about where he grew up and how he misses the simple life and so forth. He's the one male member of the X-Men that doesn't scare Kitty Pryde right off, until he changes size and consistency, of course. That's the budding love interest right there, which should be enough to satisfy the "we gotta appeal to the 13 year-old girl demographic with cutesy love interests" requirement.
If Jean Grey and Beast were there, that leaves less time for everyone, and probably less time time for highlighting Storm's capacity for leadership.

On the other hand, having Jean Grey would make it easier to show Cyclops as an extreme personality-- uptight, driven, unrelenting, and sometimes cold while doing his job, but his heart melts as soon as he's with Jean and away from the others. He would also loosen up when he was with just the Beast, further highlighting the fact that there was a team before this one (and that fact would be mentioned no matter what, and old members would come back in sequels, not as new characters but as returning alumni).

If Jean was in the movie, it wouldn't be like in Singer's bastardization. Wolverine's feelings for Jean would be showcased very little, through occasional longing glances, turning away when Scott and Jean are close together, and getting extremely agitated when Jean is hurt or attacked in battle. No love triangles, period. And Cyclops won't be a little b1tch when he's alone with Jean, either. He'll just be warmer, loving and less scary, that's all. Cyclops would be very intimidating in my film in general, especially when he's first seen (which I described in a Danger Room scene much earlier, where Kitty Pryde is horrified by the appearance of every single X-Man, including the tall man in a dark bodysuit with one glowing red eye who saves her from Danger Room droids gone crazy). He's the leader of the X-Men and he deserves respect. He's not an egotist, he's not more of a jerk than he feels he has to be to get the X-Men in shape and keep everyone safe, but he's not going to put up with any nonsense. Except if Wolverine mouths off to him, since there's not a God damn thing he can do in that case, because Wolverine is the only member who doesn't unconditionally trust Cyke and keeps him on his toes by questioning his authority. Still, Wolverine respects the hell out of Cyclops and refers to him as "boss" throughout most of the movies when they're in uniform (which will be often--these people barely have civilian lives, so there's no need to be in civvies very much-- and yes, they will damn well resemble real X-Men costumes). Bottom line, when Cyclops reprimands another X-Man for making a stupid mistake, it should make the audience very uncomfortable, as if they were watching their friends getting lectured by a stern parent.

This movie will not be centered around a single character, and certainly not around Wolverine. After three short scenes in the beginning where Xavier is recruiting Wolverine (taking him willingly away from his position as a government operative), Nightcrawler (saving his life from an angry mob) and Colossus (as the big lug saves his sister from a runaway thresher) in their native lands, Kitty Pryde will be our vehicle into the world of the X-Men, but she won't be the "main character" either, necessarily. She will get a focus on her because she is the vehicle for exposition. Even Wolverine's adamantium skeleton and claws can be explained through her; adamantium is so molecularly dense that Kitty can't phase through it without experiencing horrible agony. During a Danger Room session, while Wolverine is teaching Kitty hand-to-hand combat, she can try to pull a fast one and phase through him to attack from behind, learning the hard way what happens when she tries to move through adamantium. After being sedated, she'll wake up in the med-lab under the care of Beast, and Wolverine will explain what he knows about the adamantium and what was done to him (the little that he knows) to her. It will be made clear that he doesn't talk about this with the other X-Men, thus highlighting the close bond he'll forge with Kitty. One thing that Singer and Co. almost did correctly is show Wolverine as a mentor and friend to young female mutants.

I think if the second generation is going to be up first, then a modified combination of the events of X-Men #1 (where Magneto tried to overtake an American military base) and #150 (where Magneto, from a base in the Bermuda Triangle, threatened the world with destruction if they didn't cede him total control and disarm all nuclear weapons) should be in it. One main difference is, he won't be alone during either action; he'll have his Brotherhood of Mutants.
I don't know who should be in that Brotherhood if it's the second generation up first. If it was the original team first, the plot would be completely different (except Magneto would still try to overtake a military base, there's, you know, mutants and stuff) and the Brotherhood would consist of Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Toad, Unus the Untouchable and Mastermind.

Had the first generation been up first, I would have had Mystique lead a new Brotherhood of Mutants in a sequel that consisted of Destiny, Blob, Pyro, Avalanche, and Rogue (who would seek help and switch sides at some point) for the second generation to fight. I figure the Sentinels could be worked in there, having been launched as a result of Mystique's cover as government agent with clearance at the Pentagon being blown. No more mutie spies!

Any thoughts on that batch of rambling? I can try to narrow it down to something cogent, but obviously I'm juggling too many "what ifs" here.

 

[Mr Sensitive]

Brilliant and detailed enough propositions, Herr Logan, and I agree 100% with them.

 

[Herr Logan]

Brilliant and detailed enough propositions, Herr Logan, and I agree 100% with them.

Thanks kindly.

Anything you want to add on any subject?

 

[Mr Sensitive]

In fact, I wouldn't be able to. But I really liked the very clear exposition of the personalities of Wolverine, Cyclops and Jean, showing that their relationships in the comicbooks are much deeper than the cinematic version.

Because you know how people always dully repeat it is necessary to make huge changes in order to get something from the comicbooks to the silverscreen. But, then again, people are lazy, and just don't want to work on a previous and rich storyline.

And your descriptions were very careful and precise, carissimo.

 

[Herr Logan]

In fact, I wouldn't be able to. But I really liked the very clear exposition of the personalities of Wolverine, Cyclops and Jean, showing that their relationships in the comicbooks are much deeper than the cinematic version.

Because you know how people always dully repeat it is necessary to make huge changes in order to get something from the comicbooks to the silverscreen. But, then again, people are lazy, and just don't want to work on a previous and rich storyline.

And your descriptions were very careful and precise, carissimo.

You are too kind, Mr Sensitive. Thanks again for your assessment and praise.


Some more notes on personalities:

I definitely want the writing and directing to have a "classic Claremont" feel to it, but slightly edgier in some places. Cyclops will be slightly colder and more menacing at times, but still the brilliant tactician and combatant he was in the comics in the late 70's/early 80's.

Storm will be a little bit of a drama queen, but not as much as in the 90's cartoon (or at least not in her line delivery... I mean, damn, woman!), and she'll be the pre-quarter-life crisis version who refuses to kill, but is willing to bluff. She would take a maternal approach to Kitty Pryde (even though she's barely 10 years older) specifically, whereas Jean Grey (if she's in the same film) would take a maternal approach to the X-Men in general.

Nightcrawler will be as he was in the early days-- a swashbuckling, devil-may-care performer. No moping around for him in my movie, dammit! If his religious beliefs are mentioned at all, it will play an extremely minor part in his overall behavior, because I want to see the Kurt Wagner who flirts with the ladies, makes an aerial performance out of any battle he can, and spars in the woods with Wolverine for cases of beer (even though he continually loses). That's the fun Nightcrawler, and a faithful audience deserves no less.

Colossus will be a simplistic young man (about 18 years old) who seeks to do right by his friends and his cause and often takes himself too seriously in doing so. He likes Kitty but is shy about it, while she likes him right off the bat and makes a point of spending time with him when she can.

Wolverine will have all the traits and contradictions he's always had, in proper proportion. He's a warrior of honor who acts as though he's a compulsive scrapper. He works well in the group for the most part and follows the orders he thinks are sound, but he's not afraid to speak his mind on any subject and question the wisdom of a plan. He's extremely loyal to the X-Men and respect Xavier's dream, but he doesn't actually believe the dream will ever really "come true." Why does he risk his life for a thankless cause that he believes is ultimately naive? Because ya gotta do somethin' to pass the time, bub, and it's better to fight' on the side o' righteousness than give in to baser instincts and supreme selfishness. I think that should be explained outright in the movie. As pragmatic and even cynical as Wolverine is, he's an idealist in equal measure. He fights out of love as much out of hate.


More later.

 

[Herr Logan]

Does anyone remember my concept for a drastically re-done 'Batman Begins' I posted months ago? If so, any thoughts?

 

[Zaphod]

Does anyone remember my concept for a drastically re-done 'Batman Begins' I posted months ago? If so, any thoughts?

As I recall, no Ra's (except for perhaps a minor cameo), Ducard teaching Bruce the true manhunting from the comics, no D.A Rachel Dawes or love interest in general for that matter, instead, more Jim Gordan and Dent featured in as Gothams young-go-getter District Attorney? Good stuff!

Especially the latter, with Dent as an important and intregal character, who's absence from the existing film I feel led it too fall short of the "near-perfection" it could have achieved. I like the idea of more Detective Gordan aswell, would he carry out the 'should-have-been-featured' jump on Flass, only to be beat down by him? Or would his larger role extend more to his relationship with Batman and the D.A? Speaking of Flass however, I trust he'll resemble fully his Year One depiction, rather than the Bullock/Flass, falafel-eating hybrid we got in Begins? If anything, Flass should be a real hotheaded threat to those around him in the force, not a mere pest who works for Falcone.

The stuff about the Scarecrow in your reworking sounds good, I completely agree that he should be depicted as the straw-hatted, noose wearing, sife weilding maniac we know from the comics, and not just a suited weirdo. Although I greatly enjoyed his characterisation in Begins, seeing him in his full garb would have been far better.

A note on the fear gas and it's effects:

Something I always thought was lacking from Begins was the sight of the effects of Cranes toxin. There hallucinogenic properties weren't really as frightening to me as they were likely intended, more disorientating, but not actually scary. It seemed the director opted for a 'blurred' effect when we see through the eyes of a victim, either out of laziness or the worry of going to far over the PG-13 rating the movie was intended for. Rather than simply settle this, I reccomend vivid and truly frightening apparitions, have Scarecrow appear as a gaunty, towering, menacing, something that looks like Jack Skellington through the eyes of someone on acid...or something.

Also, when Batman gets doused with the toxin, instead of Bats flying around, coming out of Crane's mask etc. Would we be seeing the visage of his Father ridiculing him and mocking him, a'la B: TAS instead? I feel this would have more potential, and seems to me to ring true with Batmans character as someone who fears on a more personal level rather than grisly one.

Anyway, truly good stuff and I would love to hear more of it!

 

[Herr Logan]

As I recall, no Ra's (except for perhaps a minor cameo), Ducard teaching Bruce the true manhunting from the comics, no D.A Rachel Dawes or love interest in general for that matter, instead, more Jim Gordan and Dent featured in as Gothams young-go-getter District Attorney? Good stuff!

Especially the latter, with Dent as an important and intregal character, who's absence from the existing film I feel led it too fall short of the "near-perfection" it could have achieved. I like the idea of more Detective Gordan aswell, would he carry out the 'should-have-been-featured' jump on Flass, only to be beat down by him? Or would his larger role extend more to his relationship with Batman and the D.A? Speaking of Flass however, I trust he'll resemble fully his Year One depiction, rather than the Bullock/Flass, falafel-eating hybrid we got in Begins? If anything, Flass should be a real hotheaded threat to those around him in the force, not a mere pest who works for Falcone.

I agree. I'm not opposed to the Batman himself giving Flass a talking-to (without screaming in a Southern accent, of course), but I'm not sure where that would fit in the story if Flass isn't working for Falcone. Falcone would be like his comic book counterpart-- cold and reserved-- but he'd also be a little bit arrogant. Arrogant, but classy. I figure the Batman will confront him, but not like in 'Year One.' I mean, the Batman crashed through a window and rolled across the Goddamn dinner table in front of all kinds of city officials. That ain't his style at all. The Batman in my movie concept would be dealing with regular street muggings (one in particular would be a full production, which is damn fitting considering the Batman exists only because of such an incident, but this one will have multiple perpetrators) as well as either visiting each local crime boss personally or sending a message via a terrified underling. He would visit Oswald Cobblepot in person, instigating a big shoot-out with the deadly umbrellas of the Penguin.

I haven't figured out a solid mystery for the Batman to figure out, but there should be one. It shouldn't just be political themes and action. It should be noirish, with a mystery theme and psychological themes (concerning the Batman's obsession and the Scarecrow's sadism and psychosis).

The stuff about the Scarecrow in your reworking sounds good, I completely agree that he should be depicted as the straw-hatted, noose wearing, sife weilding maniac we know from the comics, and not just a suited weirdo. Although I greatly enjoyed his characterisation in Begins, seeing him in his full garb would have been far better.

A note on the fear gas and it's effects:

Something I always thought was lacking from Begins was the sight of the effects of Cranes toxin. There hallucinogenic properties weren't really as frightening to me as they were likely intended, more disorientating, but not actually scary. It seemed the director opted for a 'blurred' effect when we see through the eyes of a victim, either out of laziness or the worry of going to far over the PG-13 rating the movie was intended for. Rather than simply settle this, I reccomend vivid and truly frightening apparitions, have Scarecrow appear as a gaunty, towering, menacing, something that looks like Jack Skellington through the eyes of someone on acid...or something.

Also, when Batman gets doused with the toxin, instead of Bats flying around, coming out of Crane's mask etc. Would we be seeing the visage of his Father ridiculing him and mocking him, a'la B: TAS instead? I feel this would have more potential, and seems to me to ring true with Batmans character as someone who fears on a more personal level rather than grisly one.

Anyway, truly good stuff and I would love to hear more of it!

Thank you kindly.

I think the Batman's toxin-induced hallucinations should include his father, his mother, Alfred, and Leslie Thompkins. They'll all tell him that he's wasted his life and potential, and that he's become a monster that is no better than the criminals he seeks to defeat. The complicated aspect of this is that he conquers his fear and gets the bad guy, proving the Batman is stronger than fear and determined to keep going, but that's the downside, too. He's the Batman. His true persona is the result of a life-long obsession that isn't likely to disappear any time soon. He won't see a shrink and he won't put a moratorium on his vigilante activities. He's trapped, and he's so used to be unhappy that he doesn't even mind that much. That should be a central theme to the movie, too, but as I said, there's no happy resolution. He doesn't overcome anything but fear gas, the Penguin's umbrellas and trained birds and a bunch of thugs. Business as usual has begun.

 

[Zaphod]

I agree. I'm not opposed to the Batman himself giving Flass a talking-to (without screaming in a Southern accent, of course), but I'm not sure where that would fit in the story if Flass isn't working for Falcone. Falcone would be like his comic book counterpart-- cold and reserved-- but he'd also be a little bit arrogant. Arrogant, but classy. I figure the Batman will confront him, but not like in 'Year One.' I mean, the Batman crashed through a window and rolled across the Goddamn dinner table in front of all kinds of city officials. That ain't his style at all. The Batman in my movie concept would be dealing with regular street muggings (one in particular would be a full production, which is damn fitting considering the Batman exists only because of such an incident, but this one will have multiple perpetrators) as well as either visiting each local crime boss personally or sending a message via a terrified underling. He would visit Oswald Cobblepot in person, instigating a big shoot-out with the deadly umbrellas of the Penguin.

I'd still want Flass working for Falcone even in your reworking. It's important to convey the sheer and unadulterated corruption that extends from the power of the highest criminal mob-boss, down to the street level hoodlums and officails themselves, under his control. Having Flass as a type of 'right hand man' to a mob-boss's street and police dealings is a way to show this true extension of criminail power and influence. However, the Flass we got in Begins didn't seem to be too effective in his carrying out of Mr Falcone's plans. He was more bumbling, comic-releif, although still unpleasent, rather then the dangerous, unhinged associate of a powerful crimelord. It should be Flass's ego and intense demeanour which threatens Gordan and the rest of the force into acting accordingly with his (indirectly, Falcone's) plans. Although we should see him loose his cool at least once (aside from his beating down of Gordan), and beat on someone he's apprehended, or something to that effect. In fact, a good deal of the police force should be damn well corrupt, because this is the hopelessness of Detective Gordans situation, before the Batman arrives. He is one man, idealised and justful, within a police force and city festering in it's own corruption. But yeah, Flass needs to work for Mr Falcone, but be damn well nasty and deadly as he could be expected to be in the process.

As I've said, have Flass beat down Gordan, but then after, sometime later in the movie, have Flass full victim to the Batmans interrogation again.

[

 

[Herr Logan]

I'd still want Flass working for Falcone even in your reworking. It's important to convey the sheer and unadulterated corruption that extends from the power of the highest criminal mob-boss, down to the street level hoodlums and officails themselves, under his control. Having Flass as a type of 'right hand man' to a mob-boss's street and police dealings is a way to show this true extension of criminail power and influence. However, the Flass we got in Begins didn't seem to be too effective in his carrying out of Mr Falcone's plans. He was more bumbling, comic-releif, although still unpleasent, rather then the dangerous, unhinged associate of a powerful crimelord. It should be Flass's ego and intense demeanour which threatens Gordan and the rest of the force into acting accordingly with his (indirectly, Falcone's) plans. Although we should see him loose his cool at least once (aside from his beating down of Gordan), and beat on someone he's apprehended, or something to that effect. In fact, a good deal of the police force should be damn well corrupt, because this is the hopelessness of Detective Gordans situation, before the Batman arrives. He is one man, idealised and justful, within a police force and city festering in it's own corruption. But yeah, Flass needs to work for Mr Falcone, but be damn well nasty and deadly as he could be expected to be in the process.

As I've said, have Flass beat down Gordan, but then after, sometime later in the movie, have Flass full victim to the Batmans interrogation again.

I still have reservations about emphasizing Flass as Falcone's right-hand man. If anything, he should be Commissioner Loeb's right-hand man, with Loeb being the one with a direct (but unofficial, legally) relationship with Falcone. I'd like to hear Flass say to Lieutenant Gordon (he has to be above the rank of detective, or else he'll never become Commissioner within ten years in a city as corrupt as Gotham) that Loeb will be as good to Gordon as Gordon is to Loeb. Similarly, there should be several exchanges straight from 'Year One,' but none that are blatantly Frank Miller's out-of-place ad libs. No Selina Kyle as a prostitute, no James Gordon Jr. being rescued by an unmasked Batman in broad daylight, and no Batman doing gymnastics in front of the Mayor at the dinner table. Gordon's alliance with the Batman should be based on his disillusionment with the politics of the GCPD and Gotham City in general and the fact that the Batman is showing him damning proof that could potentially clean up the government in Gotham. It should be an uneasy alliance (more uneasy than it was in 'Begins'), but strong enough to last through the course of the Batman's central investigation of the film. The fact that the Batman is successfully taking down criminals, putting genuine fear into crime bosses, and saving Gotham City from mass poisoning at the hands of the Scarecrow makes Gordon trust him.

I suppose the central detective plot in the story could just be the Batman collecting evidence that exposes the corruption in the GCPD, thereby making it actually plausible that Loeb gets fired by the end of the first film, as well as a large number of corrupt police officers, making space for Gordon to be promoted. Harvey Dent could be the vehicle through which the Batman removes several officers from power, while Gordon serves the purpose of providing inside information. At the end of the film, Gordon could explain that the new Commissioner is even worse than Loeb, and the chain of command has slid forward up. The Batman will reply with, "Eventually, you'll be the one in that office." Gordon will get a little defensive about that, but trust that the Batman isn't setting him up to eventually be in charge for corrupt purposes. The Batman seems somehow... too inhuman for that sort of thing. That's he truly is all about the mission and not about personal gain or glory.

I definitely do want Gordon to question the Batman's intent, methods, theatrics, and why he thinks he's above the law. I want the vigilante issue to be brought up. I imagine the Batman answering Gordon's concerns by asking him, "Are you originally from Gotham City?" He knows Gordon's from Chicago, of course, but he's trying to make a point. After Gordon says he's not and that he's recently transferred in, the Batman says that he himself is from Gotham City, and through vague but ominous and of course, short and curt) remarks will somehow lead Gordon to express his horror at the fact that it's the character of his new home itself that has shaped a man into such a terrifying creature. Gordon will understand that things in Gotham are done differently than other places. It's even more corrupt than Chicago was when Gordon was pushed out for being a good guy on a bad police force. The Batman is above the law because the law in Gotham itself is "above the law." It reaches beyond its own rightful jurisdiction and needs to be reigned in by more drastic methods. This shouldn't be a lengthy discussion, but it should be addressed.
Perhaps not with Gordon directly, actually. It should probably be Alfred, since the Batman will talk freely with him. He should keep the mystery with regard to Gordon, deflecting prying questions with facts that steer them back to the mission.

I also want to see the Batman make an informant out of a lowly thug. Someone who isn't in the habit of hurting people, but knows people who do. While the most prominent example of the Batman scaring a street thug would be after he quashes a robbery, he should also be shown "reasoning" with someone he isn't also physically harming.
The Batman would actually be doing quite a bit of talking in the movie. Not huge speeches, but important interactions with several people while in costume, and longer conversations with Alfred while he does his work.




Ladies and Gentlemen, here is my solution to the issue of building a sophisticated command center out of a dank cave under Wayne Manor without arousing suspicious by laborers:
Just like in 'Begins', Bruce and Alfred alone will do the work. This is because I really don't feel like dealing with Harold the Hunchback, but I won't settle for anything less than having at least one top-of-the-line computer, a small gymnasium, a small medical station, and a decent crime lab. Oh, and an entrance and "car port" area for the Batmobile, which don’t have to be manmade, initially. I don't want to hear any bullsh1t about how the first film should be an origin story and we'll get the real Batcave in a distant sequel, and that it's "unrealistic" for two men to build a real command center. No. That's not nearly good enough. The Batcave doesn't have to be what it is in the Animated Series in the first movie, but it does need to be useful. The Batman is putting down roots, and he works fast.
Anyway, Alfred and Bruce will accomplish this by transporting equipment that either comes in modules that require assembly, or that can be disassembled and reassembled when in the cave. They will use an elevator that runs from the study down to the cave. They also have the entrance that begins at a road a mile or so from Wayne Manor; the one he uses to enter and exit the Cave with the Batmobile. Would all this take a lot of work? Yes, but the Batman started somewhere and made a high-tech home underneath the house; he obviously is capable of this and started out long before Harold came along. There’s nothing the Batman needs for this movie that can’t be carried into the Cave in pieces and assembled inside. The Cave's layout will likely be a fusion of 'BATMAN' and 'Batman Begins'. There wouldn't be a lot of steel catwalks, but attached to the walls and ceiling there would be adequate lighting, ladders, gymnastic equipment, etc. In the central command station, there would be a big-ass Cray computer set-up with several flat screen monitors (and one large one), and a basic office set-up (filing cabinets, a printer/scanner/copier/fax machine, and crime reference books. And a big, black swivel chair.

The Batman's equipment would come largely from components from Wayne Enterprises. His costume would be assembled from materials used in uniforms for military and firefighting (Kevlar and Nomex), obviously, and the cape and cowl would be specially designed for his purposes. I don't think there's a need for an electronic cape-glider in this movie. He'd do plenty of cool stuff and pretend to fly the way he normally does in the comics. The cape would be heavier than in 'Begins' and would actually look like Batman's cape-- scalloped at the bottom. Like in 'BATMAN' and 'Batman Returns', it will have veins. I don't require in the first film that the tips of the scallops contain lead weights, but that would come soon in a sequel. The bodysuit would look like Spider-Man's in his movies (but without the bright colors or web-patterns, obviously), made out of neoprene (in real life, not the story), colored dark gray, and supposed to represent essentially a fireproof, lightly armored unitard (except it's two pieces, not one). Under that, he'll wear a bulletproof vest, custom made to restrict his movement as little as possible. He will wear the trunks, dammit. As I’ve mentioned many times before, the Batman should have a rappelling harness secured to his utility belt. This will be the black trunks over the gray bodysuit, as the harness is an armored (but flexible) shorts-like garment with retractable straps and a belt. The utility belt will attach to the harness belt with keepers (like cops’ belts), so the Batman can attach his grapnel to the belt and still hang from a jump line without wrenching his torso off. The gauntlets will have hardened scallops that can parry and deflect attacks, just like in ‘Begins’.

That’s all for right now.

 

[Zaphod]

Great stuff Herr

We discussed the Batmans belt and trunks someway back in this thread. I'd certainly want a utility belt modeled of off material pouches, as you say, it should closely resemble military equipment in this respect. The belt should also be a dark bage/brown colour, not yellow. I agree with what you said about Flass working for Loeb, who works for Falcone. Flass should be Loebs 'hatchet man' in many respects, the 'dirty dealin' arm' of Loebs force. I'd imagine Loeb would been seen meeting with Falcone at least once or twice in this movie, much like how Flass met with Falcone in Begins. The difference here is that Falcone would order Loeb to have his man Flass carry out the business, instead of Loeb doing it directly himself (which is obviously unrealistic since he is Commisioner and wouldn't want to jeporadise his position within the force, where's Flass is far better suited to the grunt work, so to speak).

Speaking of Dent and Batman however, would their relationship be an indirect one, through Lieutenant Gordan, or would Dent be in close cahoots with Bats more so then Gordan himself? How would you go about Dents character development in this movie, or would this be saved to a later movie?

If Batman's general investigation in this movie is to be unearthing to the corruption within the GCPD, then where would this leave Scarecrow? I'm trying to think something up for Crane's character, any ideas of your own?

 

[Zaphod]

Some notes on the character of the Riddler, as to how my adaptation of his character in a movie of mine might go.

The Riddler:

The Riddler could potentially work wonders within a Batman movie, should he be adaptated faithfully to the source material. It pains me to read people's responses on this site when they say that Nygma wouldn't fit into Nolans realistic take of the Bat-world in his movies. For one thing, it makes me wonder whether said 'fans' even understand or have ever even read a Batman story with The Riddler in, because he is one of the few villains in Batman, or in comics in general, who use their supreme intellect and skills of deduction to purpotrate a crime, rather than any special or superhuman ability. While it is a given that the majority of the villains in Batman are gifted (or cursed) with a sharp intelligence, with which they abuse to commit crimes, The Riddler takes this trait a step further since his intellect is also the very thing which makes him a criminail, rather than it being an extension of his criminail endeavours. The Riddlers mind is the very thing that ails him in this respect, in his obsessive-compulsive mission to outthink the Dark Knight at every turn through his riddles. So, how would I handle his character?

The Riddler should be cool, calm and collected, at least on the outside, and at the very most, when he is around others, he should appear as if in complete control of the situation at any given time. He would more often than not be seen standing perfectly postured, in the midst of an operation, as henchmen and hoods scramble about, two gloved hands resting gently on his steel cane, tending a gentle smirk beneath a pair of purple tinted specs.

However, beneath this exterior of self control and assurance, the Riddler is barrage of numbers and emotions. He is so driven by the single minded goal of outwitting and outsmarting Batman that he finds no other ways than to channel his talents and abilities of riddles and codes then to work feverishly, in earnest on plans to destroy and hinder the Batman. When Batman solves one of Nygmas riddles, or when something goes wrong, The Riddler should be seen as a surge of panic, frustration and irritation, as he's plans fall through. However, only for a second, since he is a genius and can quickly counteract any failure and bust himself out of a bind as quick as you could snap your fingers. When in earnest, The Riddler should be seen feverishly working on further plans, riddles and codes for his next attempt, he should also be constantly trying to solve the greatest Riddle of all...

So that's his persona, as for his status in the movie, I would introduce The Riddler as a right hand man to a mob-boss. He doesn't particularly care for the plans and actions of his criminail elders, however being in such a base of operations furthers his own plans of tracking down the Bat. The boss to which he answers, looks on Nygma as a vital key to keeping the authorities and the Bat at bay from their crimes, through the Riddles which would deter any trouble away from the pupotraters in question.

The Riddler would also be a useful tool in interrorgations. I would have the Riddler function in this sense as a sort of 'human lie-detector', who would be able to tell from a persons behavour, mannerisms, habits and speech patterns under pressure, whether or not they were lieing or telling the truth under interrorgations, an expert on the 'Riddles of the Human body' so to speak.

The Riddler is perfectly capable of double crossing the mob he has allied himself with, given his supreme intelligence, and perhaps should do at some point.

The Riddler would wear: A green tweed suit, straight like out of the comics. A white shirt, and purple tie. His green bowler hat, but instead of a thin eye mask, a pair of purple tinted specs. He would wear fine white gloves, and carry with him a smart looking golden-metallic cane, with the question mark signs embedded or embosed into the metal.

 

[Herr Logan]

Great stuff Herr

We discussed the Batmans belt and trunks someway back in this thread. I'd certainly want a utility belt modeled of off material pouches, as you say, it should closely resemble military equipment in this respect. The belt should also be a dark bage/brown colour, not yellow. I agree with what you said about Flass working for Loeb, who works for Falcone. Flass should be Loebs 'hatchet man' in many respects, the 'dirty dealin' arm' of Loebs force. I'd imagine Loeb would been seen meeting with Falcone at least once or twice in this movie, much like how Flass met with Falcone in Begins. The difference here is that Falcone would order Loeb to have his man Flass carry out the business, instead of Loeb doing it directly himself (which is obviously unrealistic since he is Commisioner and wouldn't want to jeporadise his position within the force, where's Flass is far better suited to the grunt work, so to speak).

Speaking of Dent and Batman however, would their relationship be an indirect one, through Lieutenant Gordan, or would Dent be in close cahoots with Bats more so then Gordan himself? How would you go about Dents character development in this movie, or would this be saved to a later movie?

If Batman's general investigation in this movie is to be unearthing to the corruption within the GCPD, then where would this leave Scarecrow? I'm trying to think something up for Crane's character, any ideas of your own?

Thank you kindly, Zaphod, and great questions.

Regarding Harvey Dent, I imagine him being a critical part of the cops/corruption plot, but not as prominent in this movie as Gordon. We don't follow his story and see his fears and dreams the way we do Gordon's and the Batman's, but we know what the Batman thinks of him. He probably would have a closer relationship with the Batman than with Gordon, but the Batman is closer to Gordon than Dent. Both Gordon and the Batman sense darkness in Dent, but know he's not corrupt and that he's an idealist rather than merely a politician.
Basically, his character is developed further in future movies. You might see him flipping the two-headed coin-- the memento of his terrible childhood that he can't bring himself to discard-- while alone in his office, and he quickly puts it away as soon as he's aware that the Batman is with him. Also, he shows very little fear with regard to other people. He isn't afraid of the Batman hardly at all, and though he is startled by the Batman doing his ninja-sneak into his office late at night, his reaction is the same as if it were a colleague or aquaintance who had appeared out of nowhere. Dent is happy as hell that the Batman is in action and working through the system, because now he can actually get things done, so he acts amiably and mostly relaxed around the Batman. Gordon is scared of the Batman, as well as his fellow officers, although he nevers behaves in a cowardly manner. Dent literally shows no indication of real fear toward anyone, except when he's alone. Short explanation is, Bad Harvey is the personification of fear and how we deal with fear, and Good Harvey is the idealist who stands for justice and doesn't yield. Harvey isn't afraid of the Batman because he lives with something infinitely scarier in private. We don't see Bad Harvey make more than the most extremely subtle (nice oxymoron, huh?) signs of himself until the second movie, where Dent seems more stressed out and more willing to bend the rules. He doesn't meet with Gordon and the Batman on a rooftop until the second movie, but the Batman may be listening in on one of Dent's private meetings with Gordon where he either doesn't know or doesn't care that he's there. Gordon refers to his "source" when talking to Dent, and by the time he's shown meeting with him, Dent has pretty much figured out who the lieutenant is referring to. If the Batman isn't hiding in the shadows, Dent figures that Gordon will relay any important info to him.
Dent will briefly be shown looking on with approval at the very end when the Batsignal is first turned on. He may put away his coin when he first notices it, indicating it makes him feel safer.


The more I think about involving the Batman directly in Gordon's plot with the GCPD, the more I think I don't actually need the Scarecrow. The biggest reason I want the Scarecrow in is, aside from the fact that it would be good to have a major villain who is psychotic in addition to one who is merely eccentric (Penguin), I wanted to use the plot point from 'Begins' that allow for Arkham Asylum being busted wide open and releasing dozens of criminally insane people into the city. In the comics, the Batman appeared in Gotham first, and the colorful, costumed villains appeared afterward. While 'Begins' is marked by a few failures that came out of trying to be "realistic," it succeeded in potentially explaining why there were criminally insane people in Gotham City before the Batman, but they didn't use gimmicks and extreme tactics until the Batman showed up. I say "potentially" because it's obvious that they want to water down every colorful villain in the rogue's gallery (the Scarecrow wasn't even going to wear a mask, and they aren't even going to give the Joker a purple suit, which is just plain ****ing heresy and there's no excuse for it whatsoever). Come to think of it, that didn't explain the Scarecrow's gimmick, so it applies to all the other villains but Scarecrow and R'as Al Ghul. Anyway, I think the idea of the Asylum emptying out into the city and the Batman inspiring escalation in these people would be a decent way to go. However, it isn't necessary. By not having this element, that leaves the ongoing ambiguity that has surrounded the Batman mythos from early on. Is he actually attracting these nutjobs? Is he making Gotham a crazier place to live?

Anyway, if the Scarecrow wasn't in the movie, then the story would reflect the faithful and widely usable (meaning, it doesn't only work if you know that Frank Miller wrote it and is showing off how gritty, edgy and over-the-top he can be) elements of 'Year One,' with a large emphasis on the Batman fighting street crime, detective work, and the growing relationship between Gordon and the Batman that will allow both of them to hopefully make Gotham a safer place to live.

There would, however, be the Penguin, no matter what. Even if there are no psychotic villains in the first movie, there has to be a colorful rogue, no matter what. Oswald Cobblepot is perfect, since he obviously fits that category and he would essentially be just another crime boss who gets a courtesy visit from the Batman to let them know about new the "city ordinances". I also really like the idea of having the Penguin inspire the Batman into using the subsonic bat-call to evade police. Cobblepot uses trained animals that are his namesake (not that he chose a bird's name himself or uses penguins specifically, but it fits with the source material all too perfectly) to help him against his enemies. I figure the Batman will experience that (as well as his deadly umbrellas) at some point before he finds himself chased by an enormous police task force, and he will have taken the lesson to heart and modified the idea. The Batman can't train bats in a short amount of time, and does not make friends with them, as Cobblepot does with birds, but he has a lot of money and a company that makes high-tech gadgets, so he can make it work.
If the Penguin was the only classic rogue in the movie, then he would probably play a slightly bigger role. I want this movie, like any other based on classic, prominent superhero cultural icons I conceptualize, to be about 3 hours, two and a half at the very least. There's definitely room enough for everything without the Scarecrow, and although my original idea for the Batman confronting the Penguin a second time was directly related to the Scarecrow threatening to poison the city, I'm sure he can find a good reason besides that. In the second confrontation, the Batman has learned from his first encounter and adapted, showing that this is how he operates. In the comics, at this late stage in continuity, the Batman's ingenuity often is a joke because of how supernally, unreasonable capable he is, and his ability to adapt is drastically stunted by the fact that he doesn't kill when he knows it will save lives. In a movie franchise, however, it's relatively easy to show how smart he is, and those opportunities should be taken advantage of.

If, however, the story does include the Scarecrow, then Crane's plot will be mostly independent of the rest of what's going on. Jonathon Crane will be everything he was in the comics, but in addition to having been a professor at Gotham University (and fired from there due to his highly unethical experiments), he will, like in 'Begins' start out in the film as a psychopharmacologist at Arkham Asylum. Unlike in 'Begins,' he does not run the asylum, or appear to do so, and he will be fired from his position the similar reasons as his being fired from the university. This event will push him over the edge and lead him to become fear itself-- the Scarecrow, with the full costume and everything.
The connection between the Scarecrow and the Penguin-- which is why in my original idea the Batman pays another visit to Cobblepot after having been driven off-- is merely that Crane hires thugs to help him in his monstrous campaign against Gotham, and the Penguin has his finger on the pulse of the criminal underworld of Gotham. He's got the info. No respectable person in organized crime will have anything to do with Scarecrow (plus the Penguin, who is not considered by the local mobs to be truly respectable, but rather an eccentric, "new-money" charlatan with pretensions of standing), because he's not out for profit and the smart ones know that, even if the dumb thugs believe they'll actually get paid for their labor.

The Scarecrow will test the effect of his fear toxin delivered through liquid consumption. Perhaps at a high-society ball where all the drinks-- not just the alcoholic ones, or it wouldn't effect Bruce Wayne-- are spiked with the fear toxin? Bruce Wayne would be there, acting shallow and bored, and people would gradually start to freak out and panic. Bruce, during the panic, would notice a suspicious person dressed as a caterer/waiter/bartender sneaking out of the chaos, and he would follow him. The hireling leads him back to the the Scarecrow and his gang. After beating up the crew, the Batman comes face to face with the Scarecrow, and while he'd been fighting the fear drug's effects this entire time and rising above it, he cracks when he sees Crane in his costume. He is distracted enough by his hallucinations of unrelenting swarms of bats and his parents getting murdered over and over again that the Scarecrow kicks his ass using amateur martial arts and... I don't know, a rake or something. Anyway, the Batman would escape and return to the Cave, either by having Alfred pick him up or by climbing into his car and having the Batmobile's autopilot do the driving. As he stays in the Cave and waits for the toxin to run its course, he's too messed up in the head to even read over the case files he knows he should be reviewing for when he goes back into action. In fact, he can't even stay in the Cave because the bats are terrifying him. He has nightmares of his parents' murder, of the bats coming upstairs and assimilating his childhood home into the darkness that has become his life, of Alfred and Leslie being murdered, and of his getting taken down like a rank amateur by a flock of trained birds, a poisoned glass of ginger ale, and a spindly psychopath dressed in straw-stuffed burlap. He fears that all the years he spent training his mind and body to nigh-perfection were all a pathetic waste. He fears that his deliberate efforts to make Bruce Wayne a hopeless ditz in the eyes of the world have left him without a fruitful future, because he fears that he will have to give up his crusade and his playboy persona is all he'll be left with. He's left in this state for about two days, with the standard duration of the effects of the toxin (uttered by the Scarecrow to his hirelings, not to Bruce Wayne) for someone his size being about three or four days. After two days, he gets out of bed and goes back down to the Cave, staring down the bats, opening up his crime files, doing about a two thousand pushups (because he's behind on his exercises, you see), testing out all his most difficult athletic moves, and finally putting on his costume and staring himself down in the mirror. He's horrified by his own masked visage, but the renewed knowledge of the fear he inspires empowers him to carry on his war on crime and chaos.


This movie emphasizes intelligence, creativity, the power of fear (shown through organized crime, Bruce Wayne and the Batman's inner and outer conflicts, and the Scarecrow) and obsession more than passion and idealism, although there is that, too (more obviously portrayed on Gordon's part, though). There isn't going to be any damn kids saying "Batman will save us." I'd wait until at least the second film for the innocents of Gotham to trust the Batman at all. Even though the police will pursue the Batman in force, the fact that they fail to catch him strengthens the public's notion that he's an urban legend. He is an aggressive urban legend.He wants some ambiguity, but he truly does want people to spread the word. It helps him strike fear into the hearts of superstitious and cowardly men if they're thinking about him before he actually shows up.

I'd like to hear the Batman say a line that was changed in 'BATMAN':

Batman: You're trespassing.
Criminal: You don't own the night.
Batman: I am the night.

I'd also like him to say something ominous and dramatic to a gang leader, along the lines of:
"You're afraid. You've been afraid from the beginning. You hurt innocent people to make yourself feel strong. Strong enough to stand up to the things in the darkness that make you feel small and afraid. Strong enough to look that demon in the eye and tell it that you're not afraid anymore. Well, I'm here and I'm listening. Always here and listening. Is there something you'd like to tell me now?"

Thoughts on all that?

 

[Herr Logan]

Some notes on the character of the Riddler, as to how my adaptation of his character in a movie of mine might go.

The Riddler:

The Riddler could potentially work wonders within a Batman movie, should he be adaptated faithfully to the source material. It pains me to read people's responses on this site when they say that Nygma wouldn't fit into Nolans realistic take of the Bat-world in his movies. For one thing, it makes me wonder whether said 'fans' even understand or have ever even read a Batman story with The Riddler in, because he is one of the few villains in Batman, or in comics in general, who use their supreme intellect and skills of deduction to purpotrate a crime, rather than any special or superhuman ability. While it is a given that the majority of the villains in Batman are gifted (or cursed) with a sharp intelligence, with which they abuse to commit crimes, The Riddler takes this trait a step further since his intellect is also the very thing which makes him a criminail, rather than it being an extension of his criminail endeavours. The Riddlers mind is the very thing that ails him in this respect, in his obsessive-compulsive mission to outthink the Dark Knight at every turn through his riddles. So, how would I handle his character?

The Riddler should be cool, calm and collected, at least on the outside, and at the very most, when he is around others, he should appear as if in complete control of the situation at any given time. He would more often than not be seen standing perfectly postured, in the midst of an operation, as henchmen and hoods scramble about, two gloved hands resting gently on his steel cane, tending a gentle smirk beneath a pair of purple tinted specs.

However, beneath this exterior of self control and assurance, the Riddler is barrage of numbers and emotions. He is so driven by the single minded goal of outwitting and outsmarting Batman that he finds no other ways than to channel his talents and abilities of riddles and codes then to work feverishly, in earnest on plans to destroy and hinder the Batman. When Batman solves one of Nygmas riddles, or when something goes wrong, The Riddler should be seen as a surge of panic, frustration and irritation, as he's plans fall through. However, only for a second, since he is a genius and can quickly counteract any failure and bust himself out of a bind as quick as you could snap your fingers. When in earnest, The Riddler should be seen feverishly working on further plans, riddles and codes for his next attempt, he should also be constantly trying to solve the greatest Riddle of all...

So that's his persona, as for his status in the movie, I would introduce The Riddler as a right hand man to a mob-boss. He doesn't particularly care for the plans and actions of his criminail elders, however being in such a base of operations furthers his own plans of tracking down the Bat. The boss to which he answers, looks on Nygma as a vital key to keeping the authorities and the Bat at bay from their crimes, through the Riddles which would deter any trouble away from the pupotraters in question.

The Riddler would also be a useful tool in interrorgations. I would have the Riddler function in this sense as a sort of 'human lie-detector', who would be able to tell from a persons behavour, mannerisms, habits and speech patterns under pressure, whether or not they were lieing or telling the truth under interrorgations, an expert on the 'Riddles of the Human body' so to speak.

The Riddler is perfectly capable of double crossing the mob he has allied himself with, given his supreme intelligence, and perhaps should do at some point.

The Riddler would wear: A green tweed suit, straight like out of the comics. A white shirt, and purple tie. His green bowler hat, but instead of a thin eye mask, a pair of purple tinted specs. He would wear fine white gloves, and carry with him a smart looking golden-metallic cane, with the question mark signs embedded or embosed into the metal.

Excellent!! I am proud to have you in my thread.

Now that is how you adapt a ridiculous, flamboyant and brilliant villain! When I imagine the character you described, he speaks with John Glover's voice, just like in the Animated Series. That incarnation had the kind of cool, calm demeanor you were talking about, with that same smirk, didn't he?

I definitely think he should betray his boss, and do a fair bit of condescending gloating as he does so. I can imagine the Riddler being so supremely arrogant (but mostly contained) that he would give his employer a Rubic's Cube or other puzzle box as a gift that was rigged to explode if the user ever solved it. He'd figure the dense little tyrant (whoever it may be)-- who'd be hooked and would try every day to get it right-- would never solve it, but if he did and got killed for his trouble, oh well... what a crying shame. Anyway, that's just an image that popped into my head in response to the idea that the Riddler would be working for someone else.

I definitely like the idea of the Riddler being, in addition to the true brains behind the gang he's in while a figurehead thinks he's in control, a human lie detector. Again, good stuff, Zaphod!

I'd elaborate more, but I just found out I've got free HBO this weekend, and I'm gonna watch me some o' last week's 'The Sopranos.' Hell, it might spark some more ideas regarding the organized crime elements of my ideal Batman movie concepts and the ideal Batman video game.

 

[Herr Logan]

Okay, my On Demand feature isn't working, so I can't see last week's Sopranos...

****ing God damn piece of ****!



Well, if the good Lord's willin' an' the creek don't rise, I'll at least be able to see tomorrow night's episode. One episode, out of the whole season, and it isn't even the premiere. And it'll take God knows how long for it to come out on DVD. Feck!

On a slightly brighter note, I heard tell that 'The Shield' is having another season after this one (which ends with a 90-minute finale on Tuesday), and that'll feature Forrest Whitaker again. That starts in January, again. So what the hell am I supposed to do in the meantime?

 

[Zaphod]

Thank you kindly, Zaphod, and great questions.

Regarding Harvey Dent, I imagine him being a critical part of the cops/corruption plot, but not as prominent in this movie as Gordon. We don't follow his story and see his fears and dreams the way we do Gordon's and the Batman's, but we know what the Batman thinks of him. He probably would have a closer relationship with the Batman than with Gordon, but the Batman is closer to Gordon than Dent. Both Gordon and the Batman sense darkness in Dent, but know he's not corrupt and that he's an idealist rather than merely a politician.
Basically, his character is developed further in future movies. You might see him flipping the two-headed coin-- the memento of his terrible childhood that he can't bring himself to discard-- while alone in his office, and he quickly puts it away as soon as he's aware that the Batman is with him. Also, he shows very little fear with regard to other people. He isn't afraid of the Batman hardly at all, and though he is startled by the Batman doing his ninja-sneak into his office late at night, his reaction is the same as if it were a colleague or aquaintance who had appeared out of nowhere. Dent is happy as hell that the Batman is in action and working through the system, because now he can actually get things done, so he acts amiably and mostly relaxed around the Batman. Gordon is scared of the Batman, as well as his fellow officers, although he nevers behaves in a cowardly manner. Dent literally shows no indication of real fear toward anyone, except when he's alone. Short explanation is, Bad Harvey is the personification of fear and how we deal with fear, and Good Harvey is the idealist who stands for justice and doesn't yield. Harvey isn't afraid of the Batman because he lives with something infinitely scarier in private. We don't see Bad Harvey make more than the most extremely subtle (nice oxymoron, huh?) signs of himself until the second movie, where Dent seems more stressed out and more willing to bend the rules. He doesn't meet with Gordon and the Batman on a rooftop until the second movie, but the Batman may be listening in on one of Dent's private meetings with Gordon where he either doesn't know or doesn't care that he's there. Gordon refers to his "source" when talking to Dent, and by the time he's shown meeting with him, Dent has pretty much figured out who the lieutenant is referring to. If the Batman isn't hiding in the shadows, Dent figures that Gordon will relay any important info to him.
Dent will briefly be shown looking on with approval at the very end when the Batsignal is first turned on. He may put away his coin when he first notices it, indicating it makes him feel safer.

That all sounds great to me, nothing I can really add to make it better, good work

The more I think about involving the Batman directly in Gordon's plot with the GCPD, the more I think I don't actually need the Scarecrow. The biggest reason I want the Scarecrow in is, aside from the fact that it would be good to have a major villain who is psychotic in addition to one who is merely eccentric (Penguin), I wanted to use the plot point from 'Begins' that allow for Arkham Asylum being busted wide open and releasing dozens of criminally insane people into the city. In the comics, the Batman appeared in Gotham first, and the colorful, costumed villains appeared afterward. While 'Begins' is marked by a few failures that came out of trying to be "realistic," it succeeded in potentially explaining why there were criminally insane people in Gotham City before the Batman, but they didn't use gimmicks and extreme tactics until the Batman showed up. I say "potentially" because it's obvious that they want to water down every colorful villain in the rogue's gallery (the Scarecrow wasn't even going to wear a mask, and they aren't even going to give the Joker a purple suit, which is just plain ****ing heresy and there's no excuse for it whatsoever). Come to think of it, that didn't explain the Scarecrow's gimmick, so it applies to all the other villains but Scarecrow and R'as Al Ghul. Anyway, I think the idea of the Asylum emptying out into the city and the Batman inspiring escalation in these people would be a decent way to go. However, it isn't necessary. By not having this element, that leaves the ongoing ambiguity that has surrounded the Batman mythos from early on. Is he actually attracting these nutjobs? Is he making Gotham a crazier place to live?

As your concept stands at the moment, I would strongly push for Scarecrow to be ousted from this first movie, and just have The Penguin, aswell as Batman's investigation into the GCPD corruption. Couple this with the ongoing relationship between the Batman/Gordan, Batman/Dent, Dent/Gordan throughout your movie, and you have a strong narrative to work with without featuring in The Scarecrow and Arkham. Since you'll also be going with Bruce's origin, as he travel's over the world in the seven years and the rigous training and transformation he goes through in the process (with Ducard teaching him his manhunting skills, and a cameo by Ra's Al Ghul in the first half of the movie) I see less and less of a need to have the Scarecrow's plot in this movie.

Anyway, if the Scarecrow wasn't in the movie, then the story would reflect the faithful and widely usable (meaning, it doesn't only work if you know that Frank Miller wrote it and is showing off how gritty, edgy and over-the-top he can be) elements of 'Year One,' with a large emphasis on the Batman fighting street crime, detective work, and the growing relationship between Gordon and the Batman that will allow both of them to hopefully make Gotham a safer place to live.

Sounds great to me. Year One had a lot of iconic moments which have since become synonmous with Batmans true origin, even though it came much later in the continuity.

There would, however, be the Penguin, no matter what. Even if there are no psychotic villains in the first movie, there has to be a colorful rogue, no matter what. Oswald Cobblepot is perfect, since he obviously fits that category and he would essentially be just another crime boss who gets a courtesy visit from the Batman to let them know about new the "city ordinances". I also really like the idea of having the Penguin inspire the Batman into using the subsonic bat-call to evade police. Cobblepot uses trained animals that are his namesake (not that he chose a bird's name himself or uses penguins specifically, but it fits with the source material all too perfectly) to help him against his enemies. I figure the Batman will experience that (as well as his deadly umbrellas) at some point before he finds himself chased by an enormous police task force, and he will have taken the lesson to heart and modified the idea. The Batman can't train bats in a short amount of time, and does not make friends with them, as Cobblepot does with birds, but he has a lot of money and a company that makes high-tech gadgets, so he can make it work.
If the Penguin was the only classic rogue in the movie, then he would probably play a slightly bigger role. I want this movie, like any other based on classic, prominent superhero cultural icons I conceptualize, to be about 3 hours, two and a half at the very least. There's definitely room enough for everything without the Scarecrow, and although my original idea for the Batman confronting the Penguin a second time was directly related to the Scarecrow threatening to poison the city, I'm sure he can find a good reason besides that. In the second confrontation, the Batman has learned from his first encounter and adapted, showing that this is how he operates. In the comics, at this late stage in continuity, the Batman's ingenuity often is a joke because of how supernally, unreasonable capable he is, and his ability to adapt is drastically stunted by the fact that he doesn't kill when he knows it will save lives. In a movie franchise, however, it's relatively easy to show how smart he is, and those opportunities should be taken advantage of.

The Penguin must be featured I agree, and since I have already confessed my wish for Scarecrow to be left to a second movie (perhaps he could be featured as a character, but only as Jonathon Crane, and he wouldn't turn up as the villain in full Scarecrow garb until the next movie), I think he's screen time should indeed be increased to meet the vacancy left by The Scarecrow's absence. I like the idea of Batman adopting the sub-sonic Bats from Cobblepots 'bird-trick', and all of the other stuff you mentioned, deadly-umbrellas etc, is great aswell. How about The Penguin being closely knitted with some of the GCPD's corrupt men on the force? Not directly of course, I'd still have Falcone connected with Loeb, and through Loeb, Flass...but how about if some of those on the force hung out at one of Cobblepots obscenely seedy clubs? With scantily clad women roaming about the place, the GCPD would be off duty, amongst the less than ethical surroundings for men like themselves, drinking, taking drugs, paying for the women, brandishing their guns like it wasn't serious at all. This way you acheive three factors within the plot: Batmans goal in reigning in the corrupt GCPD, perhaps paying Cobblepots club a dramatic visit. Establishing Cobblepot as a perverted S.O.B (a plot point to his character, which although minor, is still worthwhile exploring if it can be done) and making the Penguin a more prominent character, by having him somewhat connected to the corruption that goes on in the force. I could imagine a kick ass scenario following Batmans crashing of the club, where's the Batman begins to chase Cobblepot through the levels of his establishment, only for the tide to turn once Oswald takes flight on one of his propella-umbrellas, with Batman choosing to take flight after him.

Thoughts? I dont know quite how my scenario would fit into the story of the movie in regards to structure, but it would make for a neat (one of three?) encounter with the Batman and Penguin. Also, keep in mind that this way, Oswald becomes the 'villain of the peice' without over shadowing all the other stuff which would make up the movie.

If, however, the story does include the Scarecrow, then Crane's plot will be mostly independent of the rest of what's going on. Jonathon Crane will be everything he was in the comics, but in addition to having been a professor at Gotham University (and fired from there due to his highly unethical experiments), he will, like in 'Begins' start out in the film as a psychopharmacologist at Arkham Asylum. Unlike in 'Begins,' he does not run the asylum, or appear to do so, and he will be fired from his position the similar reasons as his being fired from the university. This event will push him over the edge and lead him to become fear itself-- the Scarecrow, with the full costume and everything.
The connection between the Scarecrow and the Penguin-- which is why in my original idea the Batman pays another visit to Cobblepot after having been driven off-- is merely that Crane hires thugs to help him in his monstrous campaign against Gotham, and the Penguin has his finger on the pulse of the criminal underworld of Gotham. He's got the info. No respectable person in organized crime will have anything to do with Scarecrow (plus the Penguin, who is not considered by the local mobs to be truly respectable, but rather an eccentric, "new-money" charlatan with pretensions of standing), because he's not out for profit and the smart ones know that, even if the dumb thugs believe they'll actually get paid for their labor.

That all sounds great, but I'd still leave it to a second movie. Have the Penguin escape Batman in this movie perhaps (through the chase I mentioned above) and the have this scenario pan out the same (with obvious alterations) for the second movie.

The Scarecrow will test the effect of his fear toxin delivered through liquid consumption. Perhaps at a high-society ball where all the drinks-- not just the alcoholic ones, or it wouldn't effect Bruce Wayne-- are spiked with the fear toxin? Bruce Wayne would be there, acting shallow and bored, and people would gradually start to freak out and panic. Bruce, during the panic, would notice a suspicious person dressed as a caterer/waiter/bartender sneaking out of the chaos, and he would follow him. The hireling leads him back to the the (double word? I thought your editing was perfect Herr ) Scarecrow and his gang. After beating up the crew, the Batman comes face to face with the Scarecrow, and while he'd been fighting the fear drug's effects this entire time and rising above it, he cracks when he sees Crane in his costume. He is distracted enough by his hallucinations of unrelenting swarms of bats and his parents getting murdered over and over again that the Scarecrow kicks his ass using amateur martial arts and... I don't know, a rake or something. Anyway, the Batman would escape and return to the Cave, either by having Alfred pick him up or by climbing into his car and having the Batmobile's autopilot do the driving. As he stays in the Cave and waits for the toxin to run its course, he's too messed up in the head to even read over the case files he knows he should be reviewing for when he goes back into action. In fact, he can't even stay in the Cave because the bats are terrifying him. He has nightmares of his parents' murder, of the bats coming upstairs and assimilating his childhood home into the darkness that has become his life, of Alfred and Leslie being murdered, and of his getting taken down like a rank amateur by a flock of trained birds, a poisoned glass of ginger ale, and a spindly psychopath dressed in straw-stuffed burlap. He fears that all the years he spent training his mind and body to nigh-perfection were all a pathetic waste. He fears that his deliberate efforts to make Bruce Wayne a hopeless ditz in the eyes of the world have left him without a fruitful future, because he fears that he will have to give up his crusade and his playboy persona is all he'll be left with. He's left in this state for about two days, with the standard duration of the effects of the toxin (uttered by the Scarecrow to his hirelings, not to Bruce Wayne) for someone his size being about three or four days. After two days, he gets out of bed and goes back down to the Cave, staring down the bats, opening up his crime files, doing about a two thousand pushups (because he's behind on his exercises, you see), testing out all his most difficult athletic moves, and finally putting on his costume and staring himself down in the mirror. He's horrified by his own masked visage, but the renewed knowledge of the fear he inspires empowers him to carry on his war on crime and chaos.

So good, I dont even want fries with it.

This movie emphasizes intelligence, creativity, the power of fear (shown through organized crime, Bruce Wayne and the Batman's inner and outer conflicts, and the Scarecrow) and obsession more than passion and idealism, although there is that, too (more obviously portrayed on Gordon's part, though). There isn't going to be any damn kids saying "Batman will save us." I'd wait until at least the second film for the innocents of Gotham to trust the Batman at all. Even though the police will pursue the Batman in force, the fact that they fail to catch him strengthens the public's notion that he's an urban legend. He is an aggressive urban legend.He wants some ambiguity, but he truly does want people to spread the word. It helps him strike fear into the hearts of superstitious and cowardly men if they're thinking about him before he actually shows up.

I'd like to hear the Batman say a line that was changed in 'BATMAN':

Batman: You're trespassing.
Criminal: You don't own the night.
Batman: I am the night.

I'd also like him to say something ominous and dramatic to a gang leader, along the lines of:
"You're afraid. You've been afraid from the beginning. You hurt innocent people to make yourself feel strong. Strong enough to stand up to the things in the darkness that make you feel small and afraid. Strong enough to look that demon in the eye and tell it that you're not afraid anymore. Well, I'm here and I'm listening. Always here and listening. Is there something you'd like to tell me now?"

Excellent! That line should have been used in 'BATMAN', why it wasn't used I will never...the alternative they used simply did not compare. Keaton would have made me poop with fear myself had he said that line. I love the second line(s) aswell, good thinking there Herr. Batman should say things like that often in the movie, or at least a couple of times (dont over do it, it could go from terrifying and clever wordlplay, to over dramatic and cheesy) since Batman uses theatrics to every advance possible, and such speeches would work as an extension of that. Even though you would not be using the scene in question, I would love to hear Batmans 'You have eaten well...' speech, perhaps as an internal monologue/voiceover by Bruce, when he he first suiting up and getting ready for his 'night out'.

Thoughts on all that?

Fantastic! Great work. I would very much love to collaborate with you on this Herr, let me know what you think of some the idea I mentioned and about saving Scarecrow for another movie. Once again,

 

[JLBats]

What is this, the Zaphod and Herr Logan thread?

 

[Herr Logan]

What is this, the Zaphod and Herr Logan thread?

Do you have anything you want to contribute or comment on, JLBats?

 

[Herr Logan]

As your concept stands at the moment, I would strongly push for Scarecrow to be ousted from this first movie, and just have The Penguin, aswell as Batman's investigation into the GCPD corruption. Couple this with the ongoing relationship between the Batman/Gordan, Batman/Dent, Dent/Gordan throughout your movie, and you have a strong narrative to work with without featuring in The Scarecrow and Arkham. Since you'll also be going with Bruce's origin, as he travel's over the world in the seven years and the rigous training and transformation he goes through in the process (with Ducard teaching him his manhunting skills, and a cameo by Ra's Al Ghul in the first half of the movie) I see less and less of a need to have the Scarecrow's plot in this movie.

Yeah, I figured Crane could be saved for later, although I would definitely want him in the franchise. It may have more impact later on to have a self-styled "master of fear" cross the Batman's path, rather than having two independent characters adopting what is essentially the same thematic gimmick emerge simultaneously. Arkham Asylum need not provide the villains to begin with, either.

The Penguin must be featured I agree, and since I have already confessed my wish for Scarecrow to be left to a second movie (perhaps he could be featured as a character, but only as Jonathon Crane, and he wouldn't turn up as the villain in full Scarecrow garb until the next movie), I think he's screen time should indeed be increased to meet the vacancy left by The Scarecrow's absence. I like the idea of Batman adopting the sub-sonic Bats from Cobblepots 'bird-trick', and all of the other stuff you mentioned, deadly-umbrellas etc, is great aswell. How about The Penguin being closely knitted with some of the GCPD's corrupt men on the force? Not directly of course, I'd still have Falcone connected with Loeb, and through Loeb, Flass...but how about if some of those on the force hung out at one of Cobblepots obscenely seedy clubs? With scantily clad women roaming about the place, the GCPD would be off duty, amongst the less than ethical surroundings for men like themselves, drinking, taking drugs, paying for the women, brandishing their guns like it wasn't serious at all. This way you acheive three factors within the plot: Batmans goal in reigning in the corrupt GCPD, perhaps paying Cobblepots club a dramatic visit. Establishing Cobblepot as a perverted S.O.B (a plot point to his character, which although minor, is still worthwhile exploring if it can be done) and making the Penguin a more prominent character, by having him somewhat connected to the corruption that goes on in the force. I could imagine a kick ass scenario following Batmans crashing of the club, where's the Batman begins to chase Cobblepot through the levels of his establishment, only for the tide to turn once Oswald takes flight on one of his propella-umbrellas, with Batman choosing to take flight after him.

Thoughts? I dont know quite how my scenario would fit into the story of the movie in regards to structure, but it would make for a neat (one of three?) encounter with the Batman and Penguin. Also, keep in mind that this way, Oswald becomes the 'villain of the peice' without over shadowing all the other stuff which would make up the movie.

Actually, having corrupt cops frequent one of the Penguin's seedier establishments is perfect for underlining the sad state of affairs in Gotham's criminal justice system. Great idea.

I can see the Batman snatching one of these cops off the street right outside the club right before he interrogates him. The dirty cop, who puts on a tough-as-nails facade most of the time, quickly dissolves into a pathetic mess and blubbers on about how he was forced into corruption. That he gave into various vices and Cobblepot blackmailed him with the evidence that would have ruined his career (this is under the assumption that anyone in Gotham gave a damn what the cops do on or off duty at the time), so he started doing favors for the Penguin and just sank further and further into the whole dirty business.
The Batman, ever the crying shoulder, would say, "I'll weep for you later. Right now, you keep your sob stories and self-pity to yourself and tell me exactly what I want to know, or I'll make everybody sorry for you."

The Penguin won't have his clutches in nearly as many cops as Falcone and other old-school gangsters do, but he'll have enough juice to get what he wants out of life. I don't want the Penguin to be seen as a complete pervert, but yeah, he's a degenerate and a psychopath. I'd like it made clear that the Batman doesn't look down on everyone who has vices, but if the person is feeding off of the vulnerabilities of others and brings harms to innocent people, he has no tolerance for it. He doesn't care that Cobblepot lost his father, had a sh1tty relationship with his mother and was mercilessly bullied as a child. What matters right now is that decent people live their lives unmolested by the greedy, the hateful or the insane.

I'd be fine with the Batman making a splashy entrance in the Penguin's more "respectable" club, the Iceberg Lounge, as long as he takes at least a few of the overhead lights out. This is a statement that says, it doesn't matter how classy your joint is, your ass belongs to the Bat if you don't behave.

Again, great ideas.

(double word? I thought your editing was perfect Herr )

What?! Why, you impertinent wretch! The gall! The unmitigated temerity!

So good, I dont even want fries with it.

That's better!

Excellent! That line should have been used in 'BATMAN', why it wasn't used I will never...the alternative they used simply did not compare. Keaton would have made me poop with fear myself had he said that line. I love the second line(s) aswell, good thinking there Herr. Batman should say things like that often in the movie, or at least a couple of times (dont over do it, it could go from terrifying and clever wordlplay, to over dramatic and cheesy) since Batman uses theatrics to every advance possible, and such speeches would work as an extension of that. Even though you would not be using the scene in question, I would love to hear Batmans 'You have eaten well...' speech, perhaps as an internal monologue/voiceover by Bruce, when he he first suiting up and getting ready for his 'night out'.

I liked the way the line in 'BATMAN' was delivered, the accompanying lines and the movements surrounding it very much, but yes, the original concept was more powerful in terms of the writing.

I agree, the speeches shouldn't be overdone, but it should be a powerful tool in the Batman's arsenal. I think back to that scene in 'The Shadow' where the hero is laughing and taunting the criminals, saying, "Did you think you could get away with it? Did you think I wouldn't know?" That's the kind of effect I want from the Batman.

The "You have eaten well..." speech is a great idea, if not used in he context of 'Year One'.

That all sounds great to me, nothing I can really add to make it better, good work.

Fantastic! Great work. I would very much love to collaborate with you on this Herr, let me know what you think of some the idea I mentioned and about saving Scarecrow for another movie. Once again,

That's all the comments I have right at the moment, but yes, you and I are very much on the same page, and I'd be happy to collaborate with you. Thanks again for posting.

 

[Zaphod]

In relation to The Iceberg Lounge in the first movie, a thought struck me:

Since Cobblepot only adopted his running of the posh nightclub after he went 'legite' (although at this time he was still secretly conducting criminal operations to somewhat of a lesser-degree, fencing stolen property, arranging furloughs for incarcerated associates for a hefty fee, and he should still be doing this in the movie even if he is running the nightclub), should the inclusion of The Iceberg Lounge be left to the second movie?

I imagine The Penguin is very much the 'crook-of-old' in the first movie, where's by the second movie he has 'reformed' and taken ownership of the nightclub. This doesn't mean we wouldn't include some of the Penguin's seedier establishments in the first movie however, they'd still be featured. The reason for leaving The Iceberg Lounge for later (along with the scenario I plotted out with it) is that it could be the set-up for Batman 'revisiting' Cobblepot after he learns of how his birdish foe has been supplying Crane with the cronies to carry out the maniac's operations. This way you can include your said scenario originally planned out for the first movie, but for the second movie instead, which would include the Scarecrow as the central villain, with Penguin as a side.

If you think The Iceberg Lounge would still work in the first movie, then let me know how. I'd still want to see the flying umbrella chase take place through the nightclub and out of it, no matter what. However thinking about it now with what I've said, I think it would flow alot better to have Penguin as the crook, running a seedy underground joint or two in the first movie, with his criminail plan's extending to his connection with the GCPD corruption, and then for the second movie (assuming The Penguin has escaped or has been released for incarceration after the events of the first movie?) have The Penguin 'reformed' and running The Iceberg Lounge, until Batman cracks his investigation and discovers how Crane is getting all his goons, cue dramatic entrance and umbrella chase.

Thoughts on that set-up?

 

[JLBats]

Do you have anything you want to contribute or comment on, JLBats?

I did, but I've since forgotten it.

 

[Herr Logan]

I did, but I've since forgotten it.

So you weren't just here to be a smartass?

 

[JLBats]

So you weren't just here to be a smartass?

Moi? A smartass? Never.

 

[Herr Logan]

In relation to The Iceberg Lounge in the first movie, a thought struck me:

Since Cobblepot only adopted his running of the posh nightclub after he went 'legite' (although at this time he was still secretly conducting criminal operations to somewhat of a lesser-degree, fencing stolen property, arranging furloughs for incarcerated associates for a hefty fee, and he should still be doing this in the movie even if he is running the nightclub), should the inclusion of The Iceberg Lounge be left to the second movie?

I imagine The Penguin is very much the 'crook-of-old' in the first movie, where's by the second movie he has 'reformed' and taken ownership of the nightclub. This doesn't mean we wouldn't include some of the Penguin's seedier establishments in the first movie however, they'd still be featured. The reason for leaving The Iceberg Lounge for later (along with the scenario I plotted out with it) is that it could be the set-up for Batman 'revisiting' Cobblepot after he learns of how his birdish foe has been supplying Crane with the cronies to carry out the maniac's operations. This way you can include your said scenario originally planned out for the first movie, but for the second movie instead, which would include the Scarecrow as the central villain, with Penguin as a side.

If you think The Iceberg Lounge would still work in the first movie, then let me know how. I'd still want to see the flying umbrella chase take place through the nightclub and out of it, no matter what. However thinking about it now with what I've said, I think it would flow alot better to have Penguin as the crook, running a seedy underground joint or two in the first movie, with his criminail plan's extending to his connection with the GCPD corruption, and then for the second movie (assuming The Penguin has escaped or has been released for incarceration after the events of the first movie?) have The Penguin 'reformed' and running The Iceberg Lounge, until Batman cracks his investigation and discovers how Crane is getting all his goons, cue dramatic entrance and umbrella chase.

Thoughts on that set-up?

My concept for the Penguin would be that he had done time in prison for robbery, extortion and other stuff but had adopted a mostly hands-off method to crime, at least as far as being actually present at a crime scene. I wasn't going to have a flying umbrella chase in the movie originally, but a significant firefight in the Penguin's office or home.
The Batman would confront Cobblepot as one of several key figures in the criminal underworld (one who is publically a wealthy citizen with his criminal past behind him) while he's alone in a room lined with large bird cages. The Batman basically comes to deliver the message that crime will not be tolerated in Gotham. The Penguin is not very impressed and tells the Batman that he stopped giving into bullies a long time ago, and has since settled the score with each of them. Eventually, the Penguin raises his trademark umbrella (he always carries one, no matter what) and confirms the vague rumors the Batman has heard about the Penguin's deviousness with weapons, by shooting gunfire at him from the seemingly inoccuous object, cackling and hollering with glee. The Batman uses furniture as cover and his acrobatic skills to dodge, and eventually disarms the Penguin with a Batarang. The Penguin grabs another one out of a nearby umbrella-holder and opens up the canopy, which is webbed with Kevlar and doesn't puncture when the Batman throws 'rangs and shuriken at him. Eventually, he does a trick-shot with a Batarang that richochets from behind the Penguin and disarms him again. The Penguin uses a button on a remote control that opens up all of the bird cages at once, releasing trained attack birds that overwhelm the Batman and chase him out the window.

Later on, the Batman will return, kicking straight through the boarded up window he fled through last time, immediately knocking out the lights with shuriken, disabling the Penguin's ability to use firearms by trapping him with a bola, and tossing gas pellets into the birdcages that make the birds collapse immediately. The Penguin believes, due to the viciousness of the Batman's demeanor and the unknown state of the birds, that the birds are dead instead of sedated. The Batman allows him to believe this as he proceeds to hang him out the window and interrogate him, threatening to drop Cobblepot and reuinite him with his precious birds. The Penguin caves in. Before he leaves, the Batman says that the birds are alive for now, just like Cobblepot, at his discretion. Ignore the Batman's warnings at your peril. The Batman will gotten his act together by the start of this confrontation and become terrifying enough to scare someone who seemed to have no fear of anyone. Cobblepot will be forced to take far more precautions and be less arrogant with regard to his illegal activities. He won't go straight, but he won't hide in plain sight as the villainous Penguin anymore with such impunity, somewhat because dirty cops are in shorter supply, but mostly because he's not the only gadget-powered, totem-themed fear-monger in town anymore, and he came up short this time.

I figure in a future film, the Iceberg Lounge (the second, probably) would make its first appearance and show that the Penguin is making an effort to appear to have cleaned up his act a bit, providing himself a more secure place to do business and a higher class of clientele than before. Falcone's organization is less powerful after the Batman took his shots at the mob, and the Penguin is seen as potentially viable competition (he won't necessarily be a major player in the plot of the second film, but it'll serve as evidence that Gotham's underworld heirarchies are changing drastically since the Batman emerged). The Batman would come here to spy (hidden) on the goings-on, and he'll probably hit the Penguin up for information (possibly literally). The Penguin will make it a rule that criminals cannot fight in his club, but he has no authority over the Batman. The Batman will keep it civil if the Penguin keeps his beak clean and provides information when needed.

I wouldn't have the Scarecrow be the main villain of the second movie. I'd probably have the Joker.

 

[Herr Logan]

Moi? A smartass? Never.

Okay, so do you have something to contribute now, or do you have an ulterior motive for making irrelevant rhetorical questions here?


You are perfectly welcome to contribute to the thread (following the rules posted at the top of the thread, of course). I just don't like people making only snarky comments when others are putting real thought into their posts.