Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

[Cullen]

Thanks.



It certainly might. I don't outright accept that that alone is a good enough reason to exclude the Vulture, but it's something I have thought about, and it's a valid concern.

I'm not sure how much it helps that Toomes' flying suit would be somehow less green than the green parts of the Green Goblin's outfit. I think a suit similar to Raimi's Movie!Goblin's would actually work well for a movie version of the Vulture's bodysuit. It shouldn't be as segmented and robotic looking, but it should look tough, armored and like it could enhance a person's physical strength or ability to take a hit to the body.
One thing that really pissed me off about the Movie!Goblin suit is that, while they put forth dishonest and hypocritical comments about "realism" in the film, they didn't see fit to change the Goblin's boots into something that could actually protect his ankles while he rode that glider. In my movie, I'd have the Goblin's boots be very similar to ski boots, making it very unlikely his ankles will snap if he takes a wrong tilt while flying. I was about to say that the Vulture's boots don't need that same degree of reinforcement, but I'm thinking maybe that isn't true. Would it be better for a foot to ground landing if a person. had ski boots on than just reinforced, calf-reaching boots? In any case, I'd give the Vulture suit the necessary modifications to protect him, such as a crash helmet, neck brace (which I suppose would a little like a Vulture's feather-mane) and at the very, very least, protective goggles.

In any case, thanks for the input.

Why not change the Vultures's costume to a gray-ish green and make the Goblin a bright green, or even a sickly one?

 

[Herr Logan]

Ok, Herr, good notes indeed.

Let me begin my response *inhales*.

First off, I agree that the decadent, but good natured playboy side of Bruce's character should be explored in this first movie. He is, as you say, a well meaning philanthropist, who otherwise enjoys resting back and allowing his profits and donations do the work. Since this is the case, we could easily feature in a similar sub-plot to that used in Begins, with Bruce taking back his Father's company, aswell as the Wayne Foundation, through buying up all the shares behind the scenes, before the company goes public. We could also show Bruce at some sort of party-conference, donating money to an organised charity in Gotham (whether this is feasible only after Bruce has taken back the company at the climax of the movie, I'll leave for you to decide.)

Ah! There should be a charity event, with Wayne discussing the state of the Foundation and what's going to happen now that he's back in Gotham.
I had an idea for such a setting that may or may not be good for a movie scene:
This would be most easily pulled off if the fundraiser/party event took place in Wayne Manor, by the way. Okay, so Bruce is chatting with other rich people and flirting with hot women drinking what people assume is champaign. One of the hot women asks for a sip of Bruce's champaign, and before he can employ a stalling tactic, she just goes right ahead. She looks up and says in front of the little cluster of people surrounding Wayne that it's ginger ale, not champaign. Any self-respecting Batman fan knows the Batman doesn't drink alcohol, so when Bruce replies, suddenly half-slurring, that he's had so many glasses that he just didn't notice, some people in the audience will understand more quickly than others. If this took place at Wayne Manor, you'd see Alfred watching this and shaking his head slightly with a wry smile. Alfred had taught Bruce how to act (as in theater acting, not good manners, although he did that as well), and while the young Master is an extremely fast learner, he's still a little bit shaky this early in the game. Later in the movie, some other blatant opportunity for Bruce to act like a damn fool will occur, and Bruce will execute his routine flawlessly.

One thing I would like to make clear, is that I strongly endorse the re-emergance of the Bruce Wayne persona, after that of Batman's emergence in Gotham. For one thing, Bruce, on returning to Gotham after his training and after having been defeated in his first night out whilst wearing regular street-wear, would be busy preparing and constructing the Batcave, aswell as his alter-ego, and the costume and gagedtry that goes with it. I imagined that by manipulating the shipping services of Wayne Industry (through hacking and computing in the Batcave, forging orders, arranging deliveries etc), Bruce would arrange and then await the shipments delivery (which would consist of material, equipment and chemicals, that when assembled would make up his smoke bombs, batarangs, grappling gun, costume etc) at the docks, disguised as a maintenance worker, off-loading cargo and such like, before taking them back to the Manor.

After the Batman persona has made it's mark on Gotham City, after a certain period of time Bruce would then reinstate his playboy persona into the high life of Gothams wealthy, aswell as in Wayne Industries (given how the movie would be edited, the time between the Batman in Gotham, and then Bruce, could be expressed as a lengthy enough time, without appearing so).

I think that's a very good idea.

I think equipment should continue to be shipped to the manor after the Batman has hit the streets and then Bruce Wayne returns, so the Batcave will be assembled gradually throughout the movie. If Bruce comes back in secret, he can do some basic recon that will help him plan his agenda as Bruce Wayne as well as the Batman.
I'd have him fly back out of the country and fly back in in public view, with the media making a big deal out of it. Alfred will suggest this and Bruce should, of course show some irritation, but do it.

We'll see several instances of Bruce showing disinterest and annoyance in the need for the facade (sort of like 'I'm not learning polo, Alfred,' but not as petulent as that), but he ultimately takes it in stride. He will learn to use the "down time" to plan and analyze things in his mind, even when he doesn't have notes or evidence in front of him. I'm thinking that Bruce will actually be shown in the Batcave, cutting the first Batmobile's add-on fins into scalloped, bat-like shapes (this is after he's already taken this suped-up, unassuming car out for patrol many times), and Alfred will ask him why he's spending his time this way. Bruce will reply that he's working out a puzzling but non-mob-related case in his head while customizing his car, and close to done, having memorized all the facts earlier. Genius, remember? Alfred will then ask him why he's decorating his car so garishly, and Bruce says, almost like a teenager getting defensive toward his father, "It's my car, Alfred." When the bemused butler suggests that turning this as-yet-unnamed vehicle into a true "Bat-mobile" will make it that much easier for the cops to come after him. Bruce's reply? "Why not? I'm coming after them." Imagine Michael Keaton saying that, with only the slightest hint of a smile. He's the Goddamn Batman, and this is his Goddamn Batmobile, and when the fins are finished, he's just solved a Goddamn case from memorized facts and evidence.

I was originally going to use the docks of Gotham's shipping-goods as a key point of interest for the Batman's investigation. Aswell as having his own much needed good's delivered there for his "war on crime", Bruce (as Batman) would investigate and discover it's use as a way of exporting Falcone's weapons and drugs into the city (the shipments would be safe-guarded by armed GCPD on Carmine's payroll). I imagined this scenario as being the Batman surveying a transaction of 'classified-cargo', exported from the docks too unmarked vans, and then driven-off. All the while, as the transaction goes on, a good deal of Falcone's men, aswell as the bent cops (Flass in tow, minding his cops side of the operation) would be ensuring all goes well with the operation. The Batman would spy on them with his night-vision lenses (it would be at night of course) and would snap pictures on a hi-tech camera, which would neither sound or flash, and could develop pictures in NV. After awhile of this, the Batman would come out of hiding, although he would still conceal himself using the dark and shadow, and play up his theatrics, while terrifying Falcone's men and the GCPD. Flass would get away, but not before ordering all the vans packed with the cargo to quickly make their escape to the drop of point. As the cargo gets away in the vans, the Batman would beat and string up the rest of Falcone's muscle and the GCPD (others would have fled, had they not been driven off at Flass's order), and would leave them incompacitated next to the remaining drugs and weapons.

Excellent!

However, the next day, the result of Batman's antics doesn't go as Bruce expected. Those of Carmine's men left at the scene by Batman have been arrested for the 'smuggling of illegal and stolen materials', however their incarceration does not bring about the exposing of Falcone (as Batman expected it would). I imagine that Falcone, after promptly being informed the next day on what happened at the docks, has his own men arrested, ordering too Commisioner Loeb that they are to be brought up on charges very seperate from anything that can be traced back to himself. The GCPD strung up at the scene would be publicly stated as having 'intercepted a secret-smuggling ring of drugs and guns from an unknown source, but were intercepted further by a vigilante who is both armed and dangerous'. Loeb is clearing his own cops out of potential *****, aswell as defending Falcone's name. Sure there were sacrifices (Falcone having his own men put away to protect his name and that of those cops on his payroll, who are valuable an asset), and while Falcone grudges his minor loss of muscle, he knows it was neccesary. Meanwhile, while the cops and Falcone now know they have something on their hands in the form of some 'bat-like demon' (the GCPD left at the scene might have escaped a conviction and jail, but there damn well terrified and babbling about it. That "something" dwells in the Batcave, having learnt exposing Falcone isnt going to be as easy as first thought, and plan further his mission for brining him, aswell as the rest of organized- crime, down. The investigation can really begin.

Very nice.
Maybe this is when he begins to learn that the corruption in the GCPD goes all the way through the ranks? Any police department would be pissed off if a theatrical, masked vigilante interfered with an operation and tied up cops implicated in corruption, but in this case, the department only cares about the bad publicity and the actual loss of manpower, not the fact that their men can't be trusted. They can be trusted, all right, but not to do real police work. The Batman maybe figures that if several cops he knows are dirty are taken out of play and exposed, the police will aggressively pursue Falcone's syndicate and perhaps at least try to flip their own dirty cops as witnesses. Sorry, Bats, but this department is as crooked as it gets.

I don't know if you've ever seen the HBO series 'The Wire,' but I would highly reccomend it. It's not about corrupt cops, but it shows the suffocating, political mess that is the police department of what has been at various times the murder capital of the world (Baltimore, Maryland). Take the frustration of working in a department where you can't get anything done because the supervisors are lazy, petty and only concerned with advancing their careers, and then add a thick layer of criminal activity all over it, and you've got the position Jim Gordon is in, which is what the Batman will have to help fix.
Rent and watch that show, even if it isn't completely imitible for this story.

 

[Herr Logan]

After these events, which would take place at the beggining of the third act, the Batman would establish his connections with Gordan and later on Dent, and begin his investigation proper into Falcone's criminal operations. One scenario I would have is Bruce Wayne, again disguised as a lowly worker, visiting the docks in daylight, and after sneaking about a little, takes some shots of a cargo-manifest which details a 'classified-shipment, unmarked'. At the same time, Bruce would also note a routine, and obscenely large quantity shipment of exotic bird-seed making it's way into Gotham harbour. Noting this down for it's oddity, Bruce pays it little attention, until later on (when at the opera scene you mentioned, with Falcone family, Cobblepot, and the Maroni's) Bruce gathers intell on The Penguin (perhaps Bruce has planted microphones in all three of the key player's booths), and linking what he found at the docks (the large deliveries of bird-seed) with the profile of Cobblepot (it would be mentioned he's bird-keeping and fascination), discovers a new0lead and another name in Gotham's underworld who needs bringing down.

Wait, the beginning of the third act? How many acts are supposed to be in a movie? I thought it was three, but I could easily be wrong. My view of it was this (not complete, just main points that come to mind right now):
The first act would cover the Batman's childhood, training and very preliminary recon, which results in the failed crime-fighting attempt, and culminating with the defining moment with that damn bat flying through the window ("I will become the Bat.")
The second act would cover the Batman making his presence known ("You don't own the night!" "I am the night"), tipping his hand to Leslie Thompkins, gathering more solid info, Bruce Wayne officially returning to Gotham, Wayne business being sorted out, Batman doing surveillance on the major players (Falcone, Maroni, Penguin, Dent, and Lt. Gordon, the first Batmobile unveiled, who catches his eye based on his accolades and reputation as being incorruptible), the Batman making contact with James Gordon, the Batman confronting the Penguin and getting chased off, the docks scenario you just laid out
The third act would cover Gordon getting jumped by Flass, etc., the Batman brooding in the cave, Flass getting jumped by Gordon, the Batman making contact with Harvey Dent and aggressively pursuing the conspiracy case, the police chasing the Batman and losing a firefight, the Batman going back to the Penguin to do the job right this time, Gordon meeting the Batman after the Bat-signal shines for the first time.

Again, that's a basic sketch. Let me know the total number of acts you're talking about and we can proceed with more clarity.

Oh, I almost forgot! Yeah, I like the stuff you mentioned, with the bird-seed and so forth. I think it's a good idea to show Bruce Wayne diguised as a completely alternate persona seperate from Wayne or the Batman more than once. His face should be almost unrecognizable, though. This is Alfred's disguise and makeup lessons in play.

I don't know about putting microphones in the various booths at the opera. Not writing it off, but I'm on the fence. I would say he should be using several miniaturized directional microphones (only two if Maroni is sitting with Falcone), pointed at the different targets, but that won't work easily if it's the opera (I think there's a way to isolate the voices from the music, but not sure). If it's a play, then that's no problem, but an opera is a much easier sell for Falcone, Maroni, Cobblepot and Bruce Wayne all at the same place. It's something to think about, anyway. Perhaps your idea is the best. I don't know a damn thing about opera houses, but I'm sure Wayne could arrange it so he knows where these players will be sitting, if he could find out they were going in the first place.

From here, Batman would later pay a visit to The Penguin, and cue the first big action 'Batman vs. Villain' set-peice of the movie, in the first Penguin/Batman meeting you described. Batman's 'motus-operandi' for going to the Penguin in the first place, would be as I say, to "kill-two-birds-with- one-stone" (you like that dont you ), in that he wants both information from him on Falcone's operation, and also with the intention on putting some fear into the birded foe, to bring his criminal antics down a peg or two.

"Two birds with one stone." It's obligatory!

Unfortunately, the Batman doesn't get either bird, since the Penguin doesn't know much about Falcone that the Batman couldn't have figured out from other sources (they don't talk to him at all, but as other gangs rise up in Gotham over the subsequent films, the Penguin will have info on them), won't talk anyway for now, and he proves more than prepared for the Batman. Trained animals... why didn't he think of that!

Throughout the investigation Batman makes into the GCPD corruption, and Falcone's operations in organzied-crime all over Gotham, the Batman should make use of documents and files, secretly-recorded conversations, prints, and all the the other crime-scene investigation equipment used in conjunction with exposing a culprit (in this case, Commisioner Loeb). I haven't planned out the ins and outs of the evidence which will be brought against the Commisioner, or the way in which it will incriminate him aswell as how Batman will collect it, past what I've described above.

A lot of the evidence the Batman collects isn't admissible. Regardless, it leads him to more information, and even if none of it was admissible, he'd still be in a position to personally intervene. However, the way I see it, in addition to bringing documents, pictures and other evidence that can be analyzed and potentially cleared of suspicion of fabrication, the Batman's intel can legitimately be used to draw police attention to criminal activity where they're in a position to follow those leads without coming up against the exclusionary rule (evidence not obtained constitutionally is useless in court, and any leads directly picked up from that illicit evidence is invalid under the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine... all this will be laid out for the audience in conversations between the Batman, Gordon and Dent). If I haven't got this all screwed up, an anonymous tip can be a valid lead if provided in abundant detail. If those details hold weight, that's grounds for reasonable suspicion.

Can you imagine the wealth of verifiable details someone like the Batman could just drop in a cop's lap? That would make for a great scene, wouldn't it? Gordon's in his office late at night, having already been contacted by the Batman earlier in the movie (which would be something like initial contact in 'Begins'). The Batman appears silently in the shadows, scaring the living crap out of Gordon. Gordon mentions the news reports and rumors regarding the Batman's activity, edgy as hell in his presence, and the Batman guides the conversation back to the case at hand. The Batman pulls out one piece of evidence after another (I don't have it all mapped out, and I'm unclear on a few things) and lays it on Gordon's desk-- photos, audio recordings, documents, and whatever else could be used by the police (fingerprints and hair and fiber samples taken by the Batman only help the Batman; I'm assuming that an anonymous informant handing you lifted fingerprints, etc. is worthless). When Gordon asks what equipment the Batman used, playing devil's advocate to address the prosecutor second-guessing the validity and not taking the chance in court or the defense's argument against it, the Batman supplies both digital and more traditional versions. The photos are digital. Hey, here are some Polaroids, so they'll have to prove either set of pictures were altered in the face of an expert's analysis, or let the case proceed. These here are digital recordings... my young daughter Barbara can manipulate digital audio files on her computer. What's that? Audio tapes that can be ruled out as being a second-hand copy (having been recorded from the digital being played instead of first-hand recorded alongside the digital), and you challenge me to find the seams where the tape would have been cut or audio gaps where the tape was stopped and then started again? Same deal with video recordings? This document is a copy, but you have the original in a safe place? This is a five page list of all the drug stash houses and weapon caches you've uncovered in Gotham in the past two weeks? Well hot damn!

All that would move a lot faster in movie time, of course, and in character. I would want to add Gordon being suspicious of the Batman's thorough knowledge of the legal system and the fact that the D.A. the Batman reccommends as their contact in that office is Harvey Dent. Dent is new to Gotham. He arrived just a little while before the Batman first appeared. So did James Gordon, the Batman would point out. "Wait, so are you suggesting that I'm secretly you, or that Harvey Dent is secretly me?" The Batman hasn't slept in several nights, and it just caught up to him, hopefully to the audience's amusement. Ninja vanish at the first available opportunity. Gordon is too excited to sleep after this and can't even find enough space to store everything the Batman just handed him.
Perhaps that scene should be thrown out completely. I don't know.

I would have James Gordon tap several police officers he knows he can trust to help him out on the case being built, unofficially at first. That's more plausible than if it was one cop, one "anonymous source" and one D.A. building a valid case. Maybe Officer Renee Montoya (fresh out of the academy) could be one, Detective Bullock (being a long way from making sergeant) another, and other named police characters from the mythos who would fit the time frame.

If Falcone is only to be weakend in the movie, how would it be done? Would Batman threaten evidence and force Falcone to relinquish a great deal of his practices, or would Batman lay waste by force to some of Falcone's practises/operations when he knows there isn't evidence to formulate a complete conviction?

If my idea of Falcone figuring out that the Batman is a detective and not just a caped freak is amenable to you (and I don't change my mind about it), then both. On top of what the Batman says or does to Falcone personally, he's handed a huge chunk of viable evidence to people who can run it through the system, putting a large number of Falcone's men away and bringing real scrutiny on the syndicate for the first time in years. They're weakened and they also need to be more cautious.

The Penguin would be kept seperate from Falcone's machinations in the movie, with all Cobblepots character analogy intanct which you mentioned in your last post.

Cool.

Talking about the Batmobile, how about about if Bruce modified a black-sports car from his Fathers own former personal-collection? Batman Forever, in the very least it did well, showed to us a hefty garage with plenty of priceless automobiles belonging, or at least inherited to Bruce. I wouldn't mind seeing a garage similar to that in 'The Batman', with Bruce working on one to modify into the first Batmobile (again, he would get the equipment neccesary to make the changes through Wayne Industries, and the shipping). The idea of having the first one impounded by the Police is a good idea, only for Bruce to begin plans on another, more improved version. Batman should also have a motorcycle, used in such cases as speeding alleyway-pursuits and the like (in any case where a car would be too large or inable). This would probaly be better if left too a second movie though.

My first reaction is to not have a vintage car be the basis of the Batmobile. That's more easily tracable, even though it would still be hard. The Batman is perfectly willing to drive around in a car everyone can see belongs to him, because then it's about who's faster or more maneuverable, but I don't see him taking risks as far using things that can be traced back to Bruce Wayne. That's one reason why I'm sure as hell not using a one-of-a-kind military prototype as a costume. Is he wearing military body armor? Who's to know unless he gets killed or knocked out long enough to examine? Is that a wetsuit or just a unitard? Damned if anyone but Bruce and Alfred know. What car does that look like? It a brand new model, armored up and nitro-injected like a street racer. Someone with money or a gift for car theft and some very specialized training could get one of these babies. Who did the Bat-themed design? Damn, it looks like it could well have been a fastidious car buff with steady hands and the right rools in his own garage. Everything in the trunk was destroyed by explosives remotely detonated when the Batman got out of his car and had guns pointed at him by police.

That's my take on it, anyway. I don't want the Batman taking anything out into the field given him by his parents that can be seen by the human eye (except his body, of course). His headquarters is at the family manor because he's got a big, honkin' space down underneath. The combination to the Cave entrance is the exact hour and minute his folks got murdered, but that doesn't mean the wall will swing open twice a day, possibly while company is there (you have to pull the lever while the clock is at 10:47.) His gear is paid for with Wayne money, but that doesn't mean he took it straight out of Wayne Enterprises' corporate office (damn this gas-pellet vending machine... always takes my money without coughing up the goods... no, not the flashbang, the smoke!! *bang*).

Would you have Batman pay his second visit to The Penguin at the end of the first movie (after the general investigation of this plot is over), or would it be featured before hand, mid-way? The way you made it sound is that you'll be ending the Batman's exploits in this first movie on his second visit to The Penguin, but i'm not to sure about this. I would also like to introduced Lucious Fox by the end of the movie, perhaps as a moment very end as a way to set the character up for the next movie. I would have Bruce mention and hint at a new arrival at Wayne Industries throughout the movie whenever his is in 'playboy Bruce Wayne', and then those clues and tips of the hat would be made clear when Fox enters at the end as the new CEO.

Thought's on that?

I want the Penguin thing to happen very close to the end of the movie. Perhaps it could happen right after Fox takes his position in the company, leaving Bruce free to finally get back to the Penguin. Since Bruce is, in both personas, very forgetful about his Bruce Wayne appointments, I don't think it would be too out of line to show him checking off tasks on his palm pilot.
-Review Monarch contract and sign
-Cancel date with Mindy
-Finalize paperwork for Fox
-Fire [name of previous CEO]
-Announce Fox as new CEO
-Return P.'s message

"Mr. Wayne, I hear you financed the renovation of the Monarch Theater, which has been closed for almost two decades. Will you be attending the grand opening this evening?"

"Unlikely. I have to go see a man about some birdseed."

"What a strange man."

After the Batman leaves the Penguin gasping for breath and seriously consider leaving town, after the scene I described some time earlier, Cobblepot looks out the window he was just hanging out and see the Bat-Signal in the sky.
The Batman meets Captain Gordon and the audience geeks out.

Comments?

 

[Herr Logan]

Why not change the Vultures's costume to a gray-ish green and make the Goblin a bright green, or even a sickly one?

Wouldn't grayish green be a sickly green?

Either way, there would definitely be a major difference in tone.

 

[Cullen]

Wouldn't grayish green be a sickly green?

Either way, there would definitely be a major difference in tone.

Would that be bad?

 

[Herr Logan]

Would that be bad?

Would what be bad?

 

[Cullen]

Would what be bad?

Major difference in tone.

 

[Herr Logan]

Major difference in tone.

No, of course not. I'm saying I would intend for there to be a major difference in tone.

 

[Abaddon]

so what would Vulture's motivation in the film be?

 

[Herr Logan]

so what would Vulture's motivation in the film be?

God dammit, Abby, I done told ya!

Or maybe that was months ago and I only referred to that. Anyway... Adrian Toomes would be a brilliant inventor and the director of an experimental aeronautics department at OsCorp. He's been developing various flight technology meant to be mass-produced and probably sold to the government, as well as a few items only he knows about. His department is deemed unprofitable and Osborn is going to shut it down and sell the few inventions that came out of it. Toomes got suckered on some paperwork and Norman actually has the rights to Toomes' inventions, meaning Adrian will get his severance package but none of the profits and no prospects for another job like this. When Toomes finds out about that, he goes off on Osborn, screaming and ranting and Osborn has security escort him out, allowing Toomes one quick trip to his lab to pick up some personal effects (the contract protects Osborn from a lawsuit if Toomes wants money for his inventions, but not if he's not allowed to bring his own property home after being fired). When in the lab, Toomes goes a secret comparment in his lab where he's got a functioning, armored, anti-grav propulsion flying suit, complete with razor-sharp wings. Locking the security guards out for a few minutes, he straps on the suit and some goggles, picks up a gun and plows through the security guards with his artificially enhanced strength, intent on getting revenge on Osborn.

 

[Abaddon]

So the suit gives him super-strength?And how would you explain an old man taking revenge on Osborn himself?He's clearly wealthy,and probably not in the best shape to endure the strain of such a contraption.Why not just hire someone else to off Osborn?

 

[Herr Logan]

So the suit gives him super-strength?And how would you explain an old man taking revenge on Osborn himself?He's clearly wealthy,and probably not in the best shape to endure the strain of such a contraption.Why not just hire someone else to off Osborn?

Toomes is strong man begin with. He'll be shown to be stronger than most men his age when he lifts certain equipment in preparation for his impromptu take-off. Whether that's his sudden madness or just clean livin', I don't know. He was stronger than average in the comics, and the suit made him stronger, so that's what would be in the movie.
Even if Toomes had the money to hire an assassin, that's not satisfying enough. He wants to do it himself, with his own hands.

You're not very familiar with this character, are you?

The Vulture is faster than most of Spider-Man's other foes, is stronger than most regular people even half his age and has an iron will. In one classic story, he was dying in prison due to an "accident" rigged by his cellmate Blackie Drago. Drago wanted to know the location of Toomes' spare suit, and he figured the old coot would reveal it on his death bed. After Toomes told him, Drago admitted he set him up to die, escaped prison and grabbed Toomes' wings. He went after Spider-Man (who was sick with the flu and therefore very easy to defeat) and ended up getting knocked out by Kraven the Hunter. Toomes recovered completely from his injuries in a matter of months after learning that Drago tricked him, escaped from prison himself, made a new set of wings and retrieved Drago's stolen set from a museum, flew back to prison and broke Drago out of prison. He took him back to the city, handed Drago the suit (including the helmet, which was Drago's addition and Toomes didn't have one), and told him to put it on. Why did he do this? Drago thought Toomes was going to team up against Spider-Man. The fact was, Toomes wanted Drago-- a large, muscular man half his own age-- in Vulture gear so they could fight it out in front of God and everybody, proving who the one and only true Vulture was. Take a wild guess who won. Take a wild guess which one walked away from that fight and then immediately kicked Spider-Man's ass, ultimately sending Spider-Man to the prison hospital?

 

[Abaddon]

Toomes is strong man begin with. He'll be shown to be stronger than most men his age when he lifts certain equipment in preparation for his impromptu take-off. Whether that's his sudden madness or just clean livin', I don't know. He was stronger than average in the comics, and the suit made him stronger, so that's what would be in the movie.
Even if Toomes had the money to hire an assassin, that's not satisfying enough. He wants to do it himself, with his own hands.

You're not very familiar with this character, are you?

The Vulture is faster than most of Spider-Man's other foes, is stronger than most regular people even half his age and has an iron will. In one classic story, he was dying in prison due to an "accident" rigged by his cellmate Blackie Drago. Drago wanted to know the location of Toomes' spare suit, and he figured the old coot would reveal it on his death bed. After Toomes told him, Drago admitted he set him up to die, escaped prison and grabbed Toomes' wings. He went after Spider-Man (who was sick with the flu and therefore very easy to defeat) and ended up getting knocked out by Kraven the Hunter. Toomes recovered completely from his injuries in a matter of months after learning that Drago tricked him, escaped from prison himself, made a new set of wings and retrieved Drago's stolen set from a museum, flew back to prison and broke Drago out of prison. He took him back to the city, handed Drago the suit (including the helmet, which was Drago's addition and Toomes didn't have one), and told him to put it on. Why did he do this? Drago thought Toomes was going to team up against Spider-Man. The fact was, Toomes wanted Drago-- a large, muscular man half his own age-- in Vulture gear so they could fight it out in front of God and everybody, proving who the one and only true Vulture was. Take a wild guess who won. Take a wild guess which one walked away from that fight and then immediately kicked Spider-Man's ass, ultimately sending Spider-Man to the prison hospital?

Not really,but I remember hearing the story in a bio.

 

[Herr Logan]

Not really,but I remember hearing the story in a bio.

Well, now you know, and knowing is half the battle. Reco'nize, b1tches. Adrian Toomes is a badass of the first degree.

 

[Abaddon]

In my head he'll always be a creepy old pervert in tights.

 

[Herr Logan]

In my head he'll always be a creepy old pervert in tights.

Yeah, that's right. He puts the fear into you but good.

 

[Abaddon]

He's like a pedophile on wings.

 

[Herr Logan]

He's like a pedophile on wings.

Except not a pedophile. You clearly have pedophiles on your mind, and you're projecting.

 

[Abaddon]

Except not a pedophile. You clearly have pedophiles on your mind, and you're projecting.

No,youre fondness for the character makes you blind.He looks like a creepy old pedophilic man who tries to seduce children with candy.

 

[Herr Logan]

No,youre fondness for the character makes you blind.He looks like a creepy old pedophilic man who tries to seduce children with candy.

This madness ends now!

Aw, hell... it'll be a while before Zaphod or anyone else responds to the Batman content posted recently, so I shouldn't forbid spam completely.

I would like it if constructive comments or ideas could accompany, if not replace, the fluff.

 

[Abaddon]

This madness ends now!

Aw, hell... it'll be a while before Zaphod or anyone else responds to the Batman content posted recently, so I shouldn't forbid spam completely.

I would like it if constructive comments or ideas could accompany, if not replace, the fluff.

Technically,we're still on the subject of the character so its quasi-spam at its worst.I'm not confident enough in Batman's history to comment on that,and I can't remember what I intended for the follow-up to the X-Men: Evolution thing I posted last time.

So youre stuck with me and meaninglessness.

 

[Herr Logan]

By the way (for those following the Batman movie discussion), I'd be perfectly happy with calling the first film in my ideal franchise 'Batman: Year One' if it didn't mean letting Frank Miller run the show. I don't want Catwoman to be a dominatrix ****e, and I don't want the Bruce Wayne saving James Gordon Jr. from the corrupt cops while wearing civvies in broad daylight.

If the first movie was called 'Batman: Year One,' then sequel titles will be hard to come up with. I don't want to call the second one 'Year Two,' as the purist in me would feel obliged to include the Reaper and a Joe Chill sub-plot in which the Batman picks up a gun in preparation to murder Chill.
Perhaps it's best to stick to 'The Batman' and just use numbers afterward. I considered using nicknames, but that could only last through two sequels before getting into shaky territory. It would basically go 'Dark Knight,' 'World's Greatest Detective,' and then, in whichever order, 'Dynamic Duo,' 'Caped Crusader.' That's not going to invoke the right images in the public's and fans' minds.
Also, movies with subtitles (as in, something following a colon in the title, not captions for the hearing impaired or movie line buffs) almost always suck.

 

[Zev]

Also, movies with subtitles (as in, something following a colon in the title, not captions for the hearing impaired or movie line buffs) almost always suck.

Sir, I beg to differ, as the greatest sequel of all time, Terminator 2, had a subtitle.

Unfortunately, so does Jurassic Park 2: The Lost World. Hmmm...

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

And it's gonna be hard to define Catwoman without the dominatrix hooker thing, as beyond that she's either an airline stewardess with amnesia or an evil pet shop owner. I think either of those things would be laughed out of the cinema just as quickly as CINO.

Perhaps just not mention her background and, in a revealing moment, have her slap around a pimp while saying something along the lines of "I know what your kind is capable of."

 

[Zaphod]

Ah! There should be a charity event, with Wayne discussing the state of the Foundation and what's going to happen now that he's back in Gotham.
I had an idea for such a setting that may or may not be good for a movie scene:
This would be most easily pulled off if the fundraiser/party event took place in Wayne Manor, by the way. Okay, so Bruce is chatting with other rich people and flirting with hot women drinking what people assume is champaign. One of the hot women asks for a sip of Bruce's champaign, and before he can employ a stalling tactic, she just goes right ahead. She looks up and says in front of the little cluster of people surrounding Wayne that it's ginger ale, not champaign. Any self-respecting Batman fan knows the Batman doesn't drink alcohol, so when Bruce replies, suddenly half-slurring, that he's had so many glasses that he just didn't notice, some people in the audience will understand more quickly than others. If this took place at Wayne Manor, you'd see Alfred watching this and shaking his head slightly with a wry smile. Alfred had taught Bruce how to act (as in theater acting, not good manners, although he did that as well), and while the young Master is an extremely fast learner, he's still a little bit shaky this early in the game. Later in the movie, some other blatant opportunity for Bruce to act like a damn fool will occur, and Bruce will execute his routine flawlessly.

Excellent! This is scene in the movie which must be shown. The fact that Bruce doesn't drink alcohol doesn't need to be projected to the audience in any roundabout way either. With a party atmosphere, where there are plenty of Gotham socialites who talk money and talk fast, the exchanges between Bruce and the ignorant masses who attend his party-charity event should be quick, witty, and informative, offering some of the humour which would break up the serious crime-drama otherwise defining the rest of the story.

I think that's a very good idea.

I think equipment should continue to be shipped to the manor after the Batman has hit the streets and then Bruce Wayne returns, so the Batcave will be assembled gradually throughout the movie. If Bruce comes back in secret, he can do some basic recon that will help him plan his agenda as Bruce Wayne as well as the Batman.
I'd have him fly back out of the country and fly back in in public view, with the media making a big deal out of it. Alfred will suggest this and Bruce should, of course show some irritation, but do it.

Agreed, and good ideas . I actually forgot to mention what I had planned on typing up previously, that before Bruce reinstates his playboy-persona back into Gotham, and preferably even before Batman's first night out proper (but only after Bruce get's owned at street level the first time, since he has learnt his lesson,), tha Bruce should do some recon, while disguised, on the D.A's office, the Police department, Crime Alley, and even Falcone.

I imagine that Bruce would disguise himself as one of the impoverished and homeless of Crime Alley, and dressed down in rags and pushing along a shopping cart full of belongings, would survey the sad state of affairs in the former Park Row. Imagine, that whilst disguised in this way, Bruce has planted a camera or camcorder in the trolley, and concealing it beneath the trash and junk also inside, records and captures images of the enviroment as he moves along the decrepit streets. Later on back at the cave, Bruce will study and analyse the images and footage in accordance with the begginings of his "war on crime". Bruce would similarly survey the courthouses (much the same way as he did in Begins, when he spyed on Rachel and Finch, only this time it would be Harvey Dent he gathers intell on), and the GCPD (aswell as Jim Gordan himself). I imagine that Bruce (still disguised) would happen upon Falcone getting out of a limo somewhere, and this would alert his attention to the crime-lord as a ''key point of investigative interest''.

I like your idea of Bruce making a 'big-flashy-entrance' into Gotham, rather than just walking into the offices of Wayne Industry, like in Begins, casually. Actually, I think your idea of having him fly-back (where still talking after Batman's emergence and the recon of course, right?) into public view, with a huge press gathering entail would be perfect. When you said this, Die Another Day came to mind, with whoever that guy was in the movie (the villain who got a complete identity transplant) descending into Britian by paracheute to a huge gathering of press, true showboater fashion. While Bruce wouldn't 'paracheute in', Bruce flying back should instill the same reactions and effect that that scene in Die Another Day did.

We'll see several instances of Bruce showing disinterest and annoyance in the need for the facade (sort of like 'I'm not learning polo, Alfred,' but not as petulent as that), but he ultimately takes it in stride. He will learn to use the "down time" to plan and analyze things in his mind, even when he doesn't have notes or evidence in front of him. I'm thinking that Bruce will actually be shown in the Batcave, cutting the first Batmobile's add-on fins into scalloped, bat-like shapes (this is after he's already taken this suped-up, unassuming car out for patrol many times), and Alfred will ask him why he's spending his time this way. Bruce will reply that he's working out a puzzling but non-mob-related case in his head while customizing his car, and close to done, having memorized all the facts earlier. Genius, remember? Alfred will then ask him why he's decorating his car so garishly, and Bruce says, almost like a teenager getting defensive toward his father, "It's my car, Alfred." When the bemused butler suggests that turning this as-yet-unnamed vehicle into a true "Bat-mobile" will make it that much easier for the cops to come after him. Bruce's reply? "Why not? I'm coming after them." Imagine Michael Keaton saying that, with only the slightest hint of a smile. He's the Goddamn Batman, and this is his Goddamn Batmobile, and when the fins are finished, he's just solved a Goddamn case from memorized facts and evidence.

I take it the 'non mob-related case' concerns Bruce's dealings with Wayne Industry behind the scenes, or something similar? That all sounds great .

Excellent!

Thank you

Very nice.
Maybe this is when he begins to learn that the corruption in the GCPD goes all the way through the ranks? Any police department would be pissed off if a theatrical, masked vigilante interfered with an operation and tied up cops implicated in corruption, but in this case, the department only cares about the bad publicity and the actual loss of manpower, not the fact that their men can't be trusted. They can be trusted, all right, but not to do real police work. The Batman maybe figures that if several cops he knows are dirty are taken out of play and exposed, the police will aggressively pursue Falcone's syndicate and perhaps at least try to flip their own dirty cops as witnesses. Sorry, Bats, but this department is as crooked as it gets.

Yes, that is exactly what I was going for

I don't know if you've ever seen the HBO series 'The Wire,' but I would highly reccomend it. It's not about corrupt cops, but it shows the suffocating, political mess that is the police department of what has been at various times the murder capital of the world (Baltimore, Maryland). Take the frustration of working in a department where you can't get anything done because the supervisors are lazy, petty and only concerned with advancing their careers, and then add a thick layer of criminal activity all over it, and you've got the position Jim Gordon is in, which is what the Batman will have to help fix.
Rent and watch that show, even if it isn't completely imitible for this story.

I'll be sure to check it out if I can, thanks.

 

[Zaphod]

Wait, the beginning of the third act? How many acts are supposed to be in a movie? I thought it was three, but I could easily be wrong. My view of it was this (not complete, just main points that come to mind right now):
The first act would cover the Batman's childhood, training and very preliminary recon, which results in the failed crime-fighting attempt, and culminating with the defining moment with that damn bat flying through the window ("I will become the Bat.")
The second act would cover the Batman making his presence known ("You don't own the night!" "I am the night"), tipping his hand to Leslie Thompkins, gathering more solid info, Bruce Wayne officially returning to Gotham, Wayne business being sorted out, Batman doing surveillance on the major players (Falcone, Maroni, Penguin, Dent, and Lt. Gordon, the first Batmobile unveiled, who catches his eye based on his accolades and reputation as being incorruptible), the Batman making contact with James Gordon, the Batman confronting the Penguin and getting chased off, the docks scenario you just laid out
The third act would cover Gordon getting jumped by Flass, etc., the Batman brooding in the cave, Flass getting jumped by Gordon, the Batman making contact with Harvey Dent and aggressively pursuing the conspiracy case, the police chasing the Batman and losing a firefight, the Batman going back to the Penguin to do the job right this time, Gordon meeting the Batman after the Bat-signal shines for the first time.

Again, that's a basic sketch. Let me know the total number of acts you're talking about and we can proceed with more clarity.

I was imagining it in my mind as being:

• First act: Bruce's training interspliced with his childhood and Parent's murder.
• Second Act: Bruce returning to Gotham, his first failed night out in regular street-wear, his epiphany as the bat comes through the window conducting recon, intell, and building up his batcave and constructing his equipment and costume.
• Third Act: Batman's first night out. Ensuring 'Batman vs. Villain' plot, all the way up to the climax of the movie.

I just generalised more thats all, I beleive you and me are on the same path and mean the same thing. Your higher abundance of detail is what made it seem I was taking different approach, thats all.

Oh, I almost forgot! Yeah, I like the stuff you mentioned, with the bird-seed and so forth. I think it's a good idea to show Bruce Wayne diguised as a completely alternate persona seperate from Wayne or the Batman more than once. His face should be almost unrecognizable, though. This is Alfred's disguise and makeup lessons in play.

I don't know about putting microphones in the various booths at the opera. Not writing it off, but I'm on the fence. I would say he should be using several miniaturized directional microphones (only two if Maroni is sitting with Falcone), pointed at the different targets, but that won't work easily if it's the opera (I think there's a way to isolate the voices from the music, but not sure). If it's a play, then that's no problem, but an opera is a much easier sell for Falcone, Maroni, Cobblepot and Bruce Wayne all at the same place. It's something to think about, anyway. Perhaps your idea is the best. I don't know a damn thing about opera houses, but I'm sure Wayne could arrange it so he knows where these players will be sitting, if he could find out they were going in the first place.

Hmm. Perhaps directional microphones would be better after all, I only mentioned microphones as Bruce's means of gathering intell in passing. I would include simply because it's a neat way to set up Bruce's knowhow of The Penguin, aswell as confirming his earlier suspicions of the bird seed arriving at the docks. It would also provide him with some knowledge of Falcone (this would be the first time during Batman's investigation that Bruce would be gathering information on Falcone after the dock incident, to later bring evidence against him). I think it should be an opera yes, so perhaps there is a way to isolate the sounds coming from the singer's below and th voices of the those he's listening in on. Would you have Bruce sit in the general audience, or would he have a luxury booth above, all expenses paid for, like I assume Falcone, Maroni and Cobblepot will be placed. If Bruce does sit in a luxury booth, then it's probaly more acceptable to assume that Bruce can isolate the opera from the voices, since he's closer to the voices then he is the opera. What do you think?

Bruce would probaly be invited to the opera by some wealthy aquaitences, or told of it along with all the news he's apparently missed since his absence from Gotham. Oh, this reminds me, there would be a scene in the film, where upon Bruce's arrival back into Gotham publicly, someone who would be telling him of all thats gone in Gotham since he's absence, would be all up in arms about "a dangerous vigilante type putting the fear of god into scum everywhere, alot has happened since you've been gone, Bruce". A nice oppotunity for a similar line from Begins here ("A guy dressed like a bat, clearly has issues").

"Two birds with one stone." It's obligatory!

Unfortunately, the Batman doesn't get either bird, since the Penguin doesn't know much about Falcone that the Batman couldn't have figured out from other sources (they don't talk to him at all, but as other gangs rise up in Gotham over the subsequent films, the Penguin will have info on them), won't talk anyway for now, and he proves more than prepared for the Batman. Trained animals... why didn't he think of that!

Yep, although Batman would likely pursue The Penguin for these reasons, even if it proves useless in itself.

A lot of the evidence the Batman collects isn't admissible. Regardless, it leads him to more information, and even if none of it was admissible, he'd still be in a position to personally intervene. However, the way I see it, in addition to bringing documents, pictures and other evidence that can be analyzed and potentially cleared of suspicion of fabrication, the Batman's intel can legitimately be used to draw police attention to criminal activity where they're in a position to follow those leads without coming up against the exclusionary rule (evidence not obtained constitutionally is useless in court, and any leads directly picked up from that illicit evidence is invalid under the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine... all this will be laid out for the audience in conversations between the Batman, Gordon and Dent). If I haven't got this all screwed up, an anonymous tip can be a valid lead if provided in abundant detail. If those details hold weight, that's grounds for reasonable suspicion.

Great idea. The Batman is a genius, and he knows how to compensate if something goes awry. Batman could 'set-up' a host of corrupt GCPD, led by Loeb and Flass, and lead them one away or another into a seriously incriminating position, that when the good cops (led by Gordan, and as you mention later, Bullock or Montoya if we choose to feature them) arrive at the scene, the evidence in plain-sight is so damning, that it is enough to bring in Loeb and Flass on serious convictions. Later on, when Loeb and Flass face persercution, Dent lays down in front of them a host of other collected evidence which completey seals their guilt and incarceration (Dent would make the evidence appear to have been collected and accumulated after and as a result of the corrupt GCPD found at the scene, set-up by Batman, but in reality, it was all the evidence previously collected by the Batman, thrown onto the desk of Gordan, who then provides it to Dent). Dent avoids the fruit of the poisonous tree...stipulation, even if the evidence itself rightfully comes from such a source.

Can you imagine the wealth of verifiable details someone like the Batman could just drop in a cop's lap? That would make for a great scene, wouldn't it? Gordon's in his office late at night, having already been contacted by the Batman earlier in the movie (which would be something like initial contact in 'Begins'). The Batman appears silently in the shadows, scaring the living crap out of Gordon. Gordon mentions the news reports and rumors regarding the Batman's activity, edgy as hell in his presence, and the Batman guides the conversation back to the case at hand. The Batman pulls out one piece of evidence after another (I don't have it all mapped out, and I'm unclear on a few things) and lays it on Gordon's desk-- photos, audio recordings, documents, and whatever else could be used by the police (fingerprints and hair and fiber samples taken by the Batman only help the Batman; I'm assuming that an anonymous informant handing you lifted fingerprints, etc. is worthless). When Gordon asks what equipment the Batman used, playing devil's advocate to address the prosecutor second-guessing the validity and not taking the chance in court or the defense's argument against it, the Batman supplies both digital and more traditional versions. The photos are digital. Hey, here are some Polaroids, so they'll have to prove either set of pictures were altered in the face of an expert's analysis, or let the case proceed. These here are digital recordings... my young daughter Barbara can manipulate digital audio files on her computer. What's that? Audio tapes that can be ruled out as being a second-hand copy (having been recorded from the digital being played instead of first-hand recorded alongside the digital), and you challenge me to find the seams where the tape would have been cut or audio gaps where the tape was stopped and then started again? Same deal with video recordings? This document is a copy, but you have the original in a safe place? This is a five page list of all the drug stash houses and weapon caches you've uncovered in Gotham in the past two weeks? Well hot damn!

Brilliant! I can invision such an exchange occuring in the movie, with The Batman backing up all his evidence as you mentioned.

All that would move a lot faster in movie time, of course, and in character. I would want to add Gordon being suspicious of the Batman's thorough knowledge of the legal system and the fact that the D.A. the Batman reccommends as their contact in that office is Harvey Dent. Dent is new to Gotham. He arrived just a little while before the Batman first appeared. So did James Gordon, the Batman would point out. "Wait, so are you suggesting that I'm secretly you, or that Harvey Dent is secretly me?" The Batman hasn't slept in several nights, and it just caught up to him, hopefully to the audience's amusement. Ninja vanish at the first available opportunity. Gordon is too excited to sleep after this and can't even find enough space to store everything the Batman just handed him.
Perhaps that scene should be thrown out completely. I don't know.

Again, very very good, and very amusing.

I would have James Gordon tap several police officers he knows he can trust to help him out on the case being built, unofficially at first. That's more plausible than if it was one cop, one "anonymous source" and one D.A. building a valid case. Maybe Officer Renee Montoya (fresh out of the academy) could be one, Detective Bullock (being a long way from making sergeant) another, and other named police characters from the mythos who would fit the time frame.

Yep, they could fit into the scenario well in the way I mentioned earlier in this post.

If my idea of Falcone figuring out that the Batman is a detective and not just a caped freak is amenable to you (and I don't change my mind about it), then both. On top of what the Batman says or does to Falcone personally, he's handed a huge chunk of viable evidence to people who can run it through the system, putting a large number of Falcone's men away and bringing real scrutiny on the syndicate for the first time in years. They're weakened and they also need to be more cautious.

Ok, glad this is cleared up. I'm pleased with all of that.

My first reaction is to not have a vintage car be the basis of the Batmobile. That's more easily tracable, even though it would still be hard. The Batman is perfectly willing to drive around in a car everyone can see belongs to him, because then it's about who's faster or more maneuverable, but I don't see him taking risks as far using things that can be traced back to Bruce Wayne. That's one reason why I'm sure as hell not using a one-of-a-kind military prototype as a costume. Is he wearing military body armor? Who's to know unless he gets killed or knocked out long enough to examine? Is that a wetsuit or just a unitard? Damned if anyone but Bruce and Alfred know. What car does that look like? It a brand new model, armored up and nitro-injected like a street racer. Someone with money or a gift for car theft and some very specialized training could get one of these babies. Who did the Bat-themed design? Damn, it looks like it could well have been a fastidious car buff with steady hands and the right rools in his own garage. Everything in the trunk was destroyed by explosives remotely detonated when the Batman got out of his car and had guns pointed at him by police.

That sounds good. How about the bike though as I mentioned? Would that be saved for a later movie? I think this movie could end with the shematics for such a vehicle drawn up and in sight for the audience to see, but not shown complete and in use until a sequel.

That's my take on it, anyway. I don't want the Batman taking anything out into the field given him by his parents that can be seen by the human eye (except his body, of course). His headquarters is at the family manor because he's got a big, honkin' space down underneath. The combination to the Cave entrance is the exact hour and minute his folks got murdered, but that doesn't mean the wall will swing open twice a day, possibly while company is there (you have to pull the lever while the clock is at 10:47.) His gear is paid for with Wayne money, but that doesn't mean he took it straight out of Wayne Enterprises' corporate office (damn this gas-pellet vending machine... always takes my money without coughing up the goods... no, not the flashbang, the smoke!! *bang*).

Yeah, numerous and difficult to trace channels of payment would make it easier for Bruce to fund his war on crime without drawing attention and suspicion to himself.

I want the Penguin thing to happen very close to the end of the movie. Perhaps it could happen right after Fox takes his position in the company, leaving Bruce free to finally get back to the Penguin. Since Bruce is, in both personas, very forgetful about his Bruce Wayne appointments, I don't think it would be too out of line to show him checking off tasks on his palm pilot.
-Review Monarch contract and sign
-Cancel date with Mindy
-Finalize paperwork for Fox
-Fire [name of previous CEO]
-Announce Fox as new CEO
-Return P.'s message

"Mr. Wayne, I hear you financed the renovation of the Monarch Theater, which has been closed for almost two decades. Will you be attending the grand opening this evening?"

"Unlikely. I have to go see a man about some birdseed."

"What a strange man."

After the Batman leaves the Penguin gasping for breath and seriously consider leaving town, after the scene I described some time earlier, Cobblepot looks out the window he was just hanging out and see the Bat-Signal in the sky.
The Batman meets Captain Gordon and the audience geeks out.

Great