Season 6, Episode 10 "The Winds of Winter" Discussion Thread - Part 1

[DACrowe]

Maybe but it feels too minute and small in the show at this point. That horn could prove pivotal in the book, but since it has never been seen since a forgettable moment in season 2, it will appear "cheap" for most viewers if it is used as a dues ex machina now either against the Wall or dragons. I imagine that will just be ignored on the show.

 

[Rowsdower!]

Yeah, I see no need to bring the horn into play. The way it was found was so forgettable. I know GoT is kind of a deconstruction of the classic fantasy epic, but still... When a hero finds some powerful, mystical artifact, it's usually in a way that's a little more impressive than "hey, look what I found buried in the snow." I mean, I know that's also how Sam found dragon glass, but at least that's a "one of many" sort of thing and not the ONE special thing that was so important.

 

[Victarion]

The show didn't say Mance was looking for the horn...?

 

[BullMcGiveny]

I was disappointed with the northern storyline this season. Not quite satisfying.

Like, they had four seasons of suffering for the Starks, and then things just fell into place.

I didn't feel like the show earned Jon as king. I'm not gonna bash Jon like other people did, and Sansa sure didn't do any better.

The North had been beaten down for a while, and it might have made more sense if the North ousted the Boltons on their own and regained their pride, thus deciding to redeclare independence. But they didn't. Honestly, they still look like a bunch of losers.

 

[Charlatan]

Yeah, I see no need to bring the horn into play. The way it was found was so forgettable. I know GoT is kind of a deconstruction of the classic fantasy epic, but still... When a hero finds some powerful, mystical artifact, it's usually in a way that's a little more impressive than "hey, look what I found buried in the snow." I mean, I know that's also how Sam found dragon glass, but at least that's a "one of many" sort of thing and not the ONE special thing that was so important.

I'm going to disagree. that stuff was buried there by Benjen after he went "missing". How would a scout for the night's watch come into possession of a cache of weapons to use against the walkers? He was working with the 3 eyed raven that's how. These were probably fashioned by the children of the forest. now we know that old 3 eyes can see the past and the future and has most likely been assisting the heroes in their quests to get to a desired outcome. Like when Sam and Gilly were warned about the walkers by the ravens and were able to fend off the attack with the dragonglass dagger. It was all for a purpose. So the horn was not there by chance. It's intentional. I imagine Sam will find out it's purpose at the Citadel. Perhaps he tells Marwyn of the ravens and the daggers they found ,how he was able to kill the walker with it and mentions he found the horn with them and they research it together? Or maybe Marwyn knows right away what it is?

 

[Charlatan]

I was disappointed with the northern storyline this season. Not quite satisfying.

Like, they had four seasons of suffering for the Starks, and then things just fell into place.

I didn't feel like the show earned Jon as king. I'm not gonna bash Jon like other people did, and Sansa sure didn't do any better.

The North had been beaten down for a while, and it might have made more sense if the North ousted the Boltons on their own and regained their pride, thus deciding to redeclare independence. But they didn't. Honestly, they still look like a bunch of losers.

?? wow I dunno how much more epic a battle for Winterfell or how difficult raising an army after Rob's failure you would like. But I thought it was great how it all played out.

I will agree that the show sped up the story last season and looks to go even faster until the conclusion.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

?? wow I dunno how much more epic a battle for Winterfell or how difficult raising an army after Rob's failure you would like. But I thought it was great how it all played out.

I will agree that the show sped up the story last season and looks to go even faster until the conclusion.

What I meant was that only three northern houses joined the Starks. Jon made a catastrophic mistake and as a result what few loyal Stark forces were decimated, and they only won because of the Vale's intervention.

I understand everyone is probably glad the Boltons are gone, but the fact they think highly of Jon enough to declare him king, the bastardry and wilding sympathy be damned, made me do a double take.

 

[Andrew Lucas]

Well, Jon surely put up a good fight with the much smaller army he had of people not very welcomed by every house in the North. And valley or not, Sansa Stark worked her "diplomatic" skills to help win that fight. They both played their roles with what they had, and they succeed.

 

[BestGirl]

With the Boltons gone, there's a bit of a power vacuum in the North, as well. Who better to fill it than a Stark - half of one, anyway.

 

[Iceman]

The Night's King....

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Well, Jon surely put up a good fight with the much smaller army he had of people not very welcomed by every house in the North.

I'd love to see it that way, and had Jon not been played by Ramsay, I think his plan would have worked.

Ultimately, Jon didn't accomplish anything as a commander. He was a force to be reckoned with as a swordsman, but that isn't enough for Kingship.

And valley or not, Sansa Stark worked her "diplomatic" skills to help win that fight. They both played their roles with what they had, and they succeed.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Sansa's diplomacy was clueless, and her getting the Vale's help wasn't really the result of her political savvy. Littlefinger offered the army and she took it. Eventually.

From the North perspective, Jon and Sansa both look like they used their last loyal bannermen as bait.

 

[BestGirl]

Most of the northern houses weren't even at the battle, though, so they're mostly just aware that Jon defeated the tyrant who was terrorizing the north. And Jon charging forward to save his brother would probably appeal to the northern lords' sense of honor and family.

 

[Andrew Lucas]

I'd love to see it that way, and had Jon not been played by Ramsay, I think his plan would have worked.

Ultimately, Jon didn't accomplish anything as a commander. He was a force to be reckoned with as a swordsman, but that isn't enough for Kingship.


I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Sansa's diplomacy was clueless, and her getting the Vale's help wasn't really the result of her political savvy. Littlefinger offered the army and she took it. Eventually.

From the North perspective, Jon and Sansa both look like they used their last loyal bannermen as bait.

I'm pretty sure that commanding the defense of the Wall against thousands, then gaining the trust of the same attackers and leading the Hardhome defense shows the great "Commander" that he is, even if his death temporarily took away his faith in himself until the moment his troops collided against Ramsay's.

Until that point, it wasn't about winning that battle as a leader, but taking control of his life once again after he charged alone. Then it was war and confusion, he may have lost were not for the Valley, but that was because Sansa kept that secret from him for no reason. He did everything he could with what he had.

Jon Snow, is probably the most adequate man alive to rule Westeros and The North, hell - The Knights Of The Valley declared him King In The North after the battle. He must have done something right to accomplish that.

About Sansa, I'll give you that. Little finger just wants her to conquer the North, that's why he probably offered her the assistance in the first place.

 

[TheFuture]

The more I look at it Jon's KITN scene feels like such a YOLO moment on behalf of the Lords.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

I'm pretty sure that commanding the defense of the Wall against thousands, then gaining the trust of the same attackers and leading the Hardhome defense shows the great "Commander" that he is, even if his death temporarily took away his faith in himself until the moment his troops collided against Ramsay's.

Until that point, it wasn't about winning that battle as a leader, but taking control of his life once again after he charged alone. Then it was war and confusion, he may have lost were not for the Valley, but that was because Sansa kept that secret from him for no reason. He did everything he could with what he had.

Jon Snow, is probably the most adequate man alive to rule Westeros and The North, hell - The Knights Of The Valley declared him King In The North after the battle. He must have done something right to accomplish that.

I completely agree. But my issue is that what the audience sees is not what the characters do.

Ultimately, I think this comes down to a case of 'the writers messed up'.

They've made changes from the book, but they still want to hit some points of the upcoming books, so it ends up looking clumsy.

In the books I think Jon + the wildings will be the cavalry arriving to turn the tide against the Boltons. And at the same time Robb's legitimization of Jon will be discovered. Plus, the book northerners have a better memory of the show northerners. When it happens, it will be a lot more setup and understandable.

The more I look at it Jon's KITN scene feels like such a YOLO moment on behalf of the Lords.

That makes as much sense as any, I think.