should thor fly or should he be pulled by his hammer?

[Captain Marvel]

When did Spider-Man ever beat the Hulk?

Only instance I can remember is during the period when Spider-Man had the Captain Universe powers. Fun time, that was. We had the grey Hulk at the time, who turned into the Hulk at night. He and Spider-Man got into it, and Spider-Man threw him into orbit. The Hulk then realized he was about to die, because the sun was coming back, and he was about to be turned back into Bruce Banner while in space. Fortunately for him, Spider-Man flew up into orbit, grabbed him, and carried him back to Earth.

Oh yeah, and while not a fight, there was a great issue years back which gave us Spider-Hulk! It was fantastic.

 

[Vartha]

I didn't mean to suggest that Thor wouldn't kill. In issue #193 he killed the Storm Giants guarding the castle after Loki had usurped the Odin Ring.

What I meant was that the worthiness thing isn't about the willingness to kill- but that one would not misuse Thor's power. Ulik certainly would. In Tales of Asgard, it was presented that after every act of valor Thor could lift the hammer higher from the floor.

As a side note, it was funny to me when in Thor#432 that after Thor apparently killed Looki after Loki'd mortally wounded Masterson's girlfriend that Odin was so infuriated that he punished Thor for it.

I'm ALMOST positive that the worthiness enchantment came along when Thor was banished and not before, but that still wouldn't explain a way for Ulik to lift Mjolnir in THAT panel and issue would it? lol

 

[Dragon]

Only instance I can remember is during the period when Spider-Man had the Captain Universe powers. Fun time, that was. We had the grey Hulk at the time, who turned into the Hulk at night. He and Spider-Man got into it, and Spider-Man threw him into orbit. The Hulk then realized he was about to die, because the sun was coming back, and he was about to be turned back into Bruce Banner while in space. Fortunately for him, Spider-Man flew up into orbit, grabbed him, and carried him back to Earth.

Oh yeah, and while not a fight, there was a great issue years back which gave us Spider-Hulk! It was fantastic.

I mentioned in my previous post where it happened. It was an issue of Spidey Unlimited from a few years back, and Spider-Man was in normal mode.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

There was an issue of Spidey Unlimited (?) from a few years back . The story had gamblers betting on Spidey fights. Spidey is fighting the Hulk- the Hulk tosses a truck at Spidey. Spidey spins a web that catches the truck and sends it back at the Hulk. The Hulk is knocked out.

But back to Hulk vs. Thor The fights I recall post JIM #112 are Sub-Mariner #35 from 1971, Defenders #10, Hulk #255. All of those endes in stalemates. I know Thor fought the Grey Hulk in his own title in the late 80's but never read that one. I know there have been other battles in special edition comics and so forth, but I'm not clear on how those fights ended.

More modern fights have seemed to place the Hulk firmly in the lead for most of the battle, even if they technically ended inconclusively. The one that springs to mind first is The Incredible Hulk #440, where Thor and the Hulk fight for hours and then the Hulk just casually tosses Thor away when he spots a nuclear missile on its way. There's also The Incredible Hulk 2001 Annual, where Thor and the Hulk fight numerous times and the Hulk knocks Thor out twice while Thor knocks the Hulk out once. Ultimately, Thor creates a huge storm that floods a valley and the Hulk tosses some people on a rock into the water, forcing Thor to save them while he leaps away. In Thor's own comic, #385, Thor fights the Hulk without Mjolnir and that battle ends with the Hulk leaping away in perfect health while Thor, although still willing to keep fighting, is bruised and battered.

There are others, but those are the ones I remember right now. It seems like there was a shift somewhere around the '80s where Thor was treated as less and less of a powerhouse while the Hulk remained basically the strong dude in the Marvel universe, until we arrive at the present where we have stuff like the Hulk vs. Thor movie, where the Hulk literally pummels Thor nonstop and Thor can barely even breathe, let alone fight back. Doesn't count for canon, obviously, but it's still annoying to see.

 

[Dragon]

I'm ALMOST positive that the worthiness enchantment came along when Thor was banished and not before, but that still wouldn't explain a way for Ulik to lift Mjolnir in THAT panel and issue would it? lol

Like I said in an earlier post, Ulik is lifting the hammer because of a spell by a being called Orikal- not to mention he was in the Troll realm, where Uru metal originated, and Mjolnir was forged.


As for the worthiness thing- it was only really meant to be a message for Don Blake, essentially lifting his/Thor's penance. It wasn't really meant to be a general statement. Afterall, Odin led Don Blake back to the hammer. If it were available to any person worthy, then any such person could've found it. Again, Simonson was the first to use this as a reason for someone else lifting the hammer, and he wasn't aware of the explanation that Blake had always been Thor.

 

[Dragon]

More modern fights have seemed to place the Hulk firmly in the lead for most of the battle, even if they technically ended inconclusively. The one that springs to mind first is The Incredible Hulk #440, where Thor and the Hulk fight for hours and then the Hulk just casually tosses Thor away when he spots a nuclear missile on its way. There's also The Incredible Hulk 2001 Annual, where Thor and the Hulk fight numerous times and the Hulk knocks Thor out twice while Thor knocks the Hulk out once. Ultimately, Thor creates a huge storm that floods a valley and the Hulk tosses some people on a rock into the water, forcing Thor to save them while he leaps away. In Thor's own comic, #385, Thor fights the Hulk without Mjolnir and that battle ends with the Hulk leaping away in perfect health while Thor, although still willing to keep fighting, is bruised and battered.

There are others, but those are the ones I remember right now. It seems like there was a shift somewhere around the '80s where Thor was treated as less and less of a powerhouse while the Hulk remained basically the strong dude in the Marvel universe, until we arrive at the present where we have stuff like the Hulk vs. Thor movie, where the Hulk literally pummels Thor nonstop and Thor can barely even breathe, let alone fight back. Doesn't count for canon, obviously, but it's still annoying to see.

Well, thanks for filling in those blanks. I hadn't read most of the stories you mentioned. What it reflects I guess is a shift in popularity. In the 80's and into the 90's the Hulk grew more popular (Really since te 70's) while Thor decreased. His title was cancelled around that time. afterall. Whereas in the 60's Thor was one of Marvel's top sellers, right behind FF and Spidey.

These superhero fights are often decided on populairty, most pathetically displayed in the Marvel vs. DC mini-series. Back in Hulk#181, Wolverine LITERALLY couldn't make a scratch on the Hulk's hide. But after his popularity rose, he could suddenly cut him. Again, this is why Thor lost to Superman, even though the two should be evenly matched. And since Superman is vulnerable to magic, Thor's blasts should total him.

The thing about Thor that the writers seem to forget is that his immortality means he can't tire and regenerates quickly from injury. I don't say he should be able to beat the Hulk who for Marvel is the highest example of pure brute force. In his way, he's nearly God-like in that respect. But Thor's power as well as his skill, honed over centuries would mean he could hold pretty much anyone off.

 

[Captain Marvel]

I mentioned in my previous post where it happened. It was an issue of Spidey Unlimited from a few years back, and Spider-Man was in normal mode.

Yeah, I read your post. Pretty funny, as it was essentially the Hulk knocking himself out. Just thought I'd bring up another story where it happened, albeit under extreme exentuating circumstances (I.E. He had the Captain Universe powers).

 

[Dragon]

Yeah, I read your post. Pretty funny, as it was essentially the Hulk knocking himself out. Just thought I'd bring up another story where it happened, albeit under extreme exentuating circumstances (I.E. He had the Captain Universe powers).

Nah, that was Spider-Man knocking him out. The truck hit the Hulk due to Spidey's speed, and ingenuity. The Hulk certainly hasn't won every battle by just pummeling his foes into submission. And Spider-Man often wins by making use of his enemies mistakes.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, thanks for filling in those blanks. I hadn't read most of the stories you mentioned. What it reflects I guess is a shift in popularity. In the 80's and into the 90's the Hulk grew more popular (Really since te 70's) while Thor decreased. His title was cancelled around that time. afterall. Whereas in the 60's Thor was one of Marvel's top sellers, right behind FF and Spidey.

These superhero fights are often decided on populairty, most pathetically displayed in the Marvel vs. DC mini-series. Back in Hulk#181, Wolverine LITERALLY couldn't make a scratch on the Hulk's hide. But after his popularity rose, he could suddenly cut him. Again, this is why Thor lost to Superman, even though the two should be evenly matched. And since Superman is vulnerable to magic, Thor's blasts should total him.

The thing about Thor that the writers seem to forget is that his immortality means he can't tire and regenerates quickly from injury. I don't say he should be able to beat the Hulk who for Marvel is the highest example of pure brute force. In his way, he's nearly God-like in that respect. But Thor's power as well as his skill, honed over centuries would mean he could hold pretty much anyone off.

Totally agree, how a character fares in a fight tends to hinge heavily on their relative popularity. It's just really disheartening to see as a Thor fan. But now that Thor's got a movie on the way and his comics are selling really well again, maybe we'll see his standing in the Marvel universe improve going forward.

Like I said in an earlier post, Ulik is lifting the hammer because of a spell by a being called Orikal- not to mention he was in the Troll realm, where Uru metal originated, and Mjolnir was forged.

Hmm, I hadn't thought of that. It wasn't specifically stated in the issue that Orikal was nullifying Mjolnir's enchantments, as far as I recall, but there was mention of Orikal's magic posing a threat to Asgard even in spite of Odin's own powers. So that at least implies that Orikal's power is a match for Odin's and we've seen other similarly powerful magic-users, like the Enchanters, simply nullify Odin's enchantments on Mjolnir with their own magic. That explanation works for me.

 

[Vartha]

Like I said in an earlier post, Ulik is lifting the hammer because of a spell by a being called Orikal- not to mention he was in the Troll realm, where Uru metal originated, and Mjolnir was forged.


As for the worthiness thing- it was only really meant to be a message for Don Blake, essentially lifting his/Thor's penance. It wasn't really meant to be a general statement. Afterall, Odin led Don Blake back to the hammer. If it were available to any person worthy, then any such person could've found it. Again, Simonson was the first to use this as a reason for someone else lifting the hammer, and he wasn't aware of the explanation that Blake had always been Thor.

Right I know all the stuff with Blake. I loved how the first draft of the movie script treats the whole worthiness enchantment. I hope they left that part of the script in during the rewrites. Odin basically had nothing to do with the basic enchantments or the worthiness he just provided the power that was needed to make Mjolnir.

 

[Nathan]

There are others, but those are the ones I remember right now. It seems like there was a shift somewhere around the '80s where Thor was treated as less and less of a powerhouse while the Hulk remained basically the strong dude in the Marvel universe, until we arrive at the present where we have stuff like the Hulk vs. Thor movie, where the Hulk literally pummels Thor nonstop and Thor can barely even breathe, let alone fight back. Doesn't count for canon, obviously, but it's still annoying to see.

Even worse was seeing Hulk pick up the hammer in the Avengers DTV.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That one didn't bother me so much because it's based on the Ultimates. Ultimate Thor sucks anyway. Didn't he get owned by Colossus once?

 

[Nathan]

I think there was something about Colossus pummeling him and Iron Man for 10 minutes.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

And people wonder why I can't stand the Ultimate universe.

 

[Nathan]

I have to correct myself. He was only kicking the crap out of Thor for 10 solid minutes.



But he still owned Iron Man good separately.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Ultimate Hawkeye has a nuclear arrow? Geez, it's worse than I thought.

 

[Vartha]

....wonder if Ulty Hawkeye has a microwave arrow for marshmallow chicks?

 

[spider-neil]

anyway, back to the original subject matter, how do you think the fx guys will handle thor's take off. the speed he will be moving will be pretty darn quick, I imagine it to be similar to being stationary and then grappling onto a moving plane imagine the force and speed of THAT. if a crane yanks hemsworth up will it look cheesy, will it look fake if its CG?

 

[anrrd_2]

i like the teleport thing he did in the opening sequence of the ultimate alliance game... that would be fine with me, and probably easier to make look cool than flying

 

[spider-neil]

i like the teleport thing he did in the opening sequence of the ultimate alliance game... that would be fine with me, and probably easier to make look cool than flying

teleport? are you serious? thor being pulled along by his hammer is a signature move, not having it is like having superman driving to the next crime scene.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, Thor teleports all the time, too...

But I would like to see him fly. I kind of don't care whether they do the hammer-throw method or just have Mjolnir levitate him, personally.

 

[Nathan]

Really, just have him fly with the aid of the hammer. The whole having to throw the hammer and using momentum to travel just complicates things too much. He could never have air battles because he'd start to fall once the momentum is gone. And we all know that Mjolnir can levitate on it's own, so why does he need to throw it in the first place?

I wouldn't even mind if he can fly on his own. Never made much sense that Storm could control the winds to fly, but a god who controls the weather isn't able to.

 

[spider-neil]

Really, just have him fly with the aid of the hammer. The whole having to throw the hammer and using momentum to travel just complicates things too much. He could never have air battles because he'd start to fall once the momentum is gone. And we all know that Mjolnir can levitate on it's own, so why does he need to throw it in the first place?

I wouldn't even mind if he can fly on his own. Never made much sense that Storm could control the winds to fly, but a god who controls the weather isn't able to.

the thing is the hammer pull is what separates thor from everyone else

batman - drives
superman - flies
hulk - jumps
spidey - web swings
xmen - jet
thor - hammer pull

I think the visual could look amazing if done correctly

 

[Webhead2006]

yea it would just be easier to say the hammer has the power to fly.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

the thing is the hammer pull is what separates thor from everyone else

batman - drives
superman - flies
hulk - jumps
spidey - web swings
xmen - jet
thor - hammer pull

I think the visual could look amazing if done correctly

The question is whether the effects guys will be able to do it correctly with the budget they've got.