Should Veidt live or die?

[logansoldcigar]

but it's a starting point; an entry to discovering the full truth, and one that will be made public.?

you are aassuming that Seymour actually picks up RS's journal. we see him reaching for the pile of contributions, of which the journal is just one. Its left by Moore (and deliberatly, i figure) to let the sense of justice that each reader has to imagine where it goes next

that's very true. Ozymandias is admired, well-respected, and is viewed as a hero, but like his namesake in Shelly's poem, it eventually all crumbles away; it's only temporary

Its more likely to crumble simply because of Human nature. we are incapable of a lasting peace with each other. Since the end of WW2, in what is supposedly a time of peace, how many years to you think there have been with out some form of military conflict?

your points have merit. the reason why i believe that he isn't feeling guilt is because with guilt comes remorse and regret - they're part and parcel, and i don't see Veidt as being remorseful. ah, hell. i can see it both ways. i can see how his appeal to Jon for reassurance could be the pangs of guilt. but to your second point, i agree: he has done what he set out to do, so what difference does it make if he dies as long as it isn't done as an act of justice?

Combining Veidt's questions with the expressions on his face show me that he isnt asure he has done the right thing. thats the essence of guilt, he has second guessed him self after the event.

as i said, to kill veidt at the end serves no dramatic purpose, other than to remove the ambiguity about the ending. it makes it a pretty neat little package, which is one thing watchmen shouldnt be. the whole boook raises quyestions, and to end it with an issue of black and white on a character that is a pure shade of grey, is, IMO, the wrong way to do it. I just dont think it will work from a dramatic POV. though it will work for those that insist on a clear resolution: the implication that Veidt's plot is exposed to the world at large, and the at veidt has died in paymeny for his crimes

 

[Souperman]

NO! I shall never die! I am invincible!

 

[Gilpesh]

Looks like he somehow out closed minded us MM.

Veidt is not a villain, and he's not a hero. To kill him at the end of the movie completely and entirely calls him a villain. Let's just go over the comic book movies...

Batman - Joker dies
Batman Returns - Peguin dies, Catwoman dies-ish
Batman Forever - Two-Face dies, Riddler is locked up
Batman & Robin - Every bad guy locked up
Spider-man - GG dead
Spider-man 2 - Doc Ock dead
Spider-man 3 - Venom dead
Punisher - Bad guys, dead

Now the action movies...

Die Hard Series - Bad guys die
Arnold Movies - Bad guys die
Hollywood movies - bad guys die

Etc Etc Etc

You get the point. In movies, the bad guy dies or gets sent to prison for everything they do in the story. The second Veidt gets killed by ANYONE for his actions, he is now the villain... he shoots himself in guilt... villain. Any way he dies, now he is the villain and the story is no longer Watchmen. One entire part of Watchmen was to show that there is no 'heroes' and there are no 'villains' like in Superhero comics or movies. Shades of grey.

 

[Qwerty©]

Veidt dieing is too conclusive for Watchmen.

 

[Sandman138]

If he dies, the whole movie is pointless. Watchmen is about the inadequacy of the super hero paradigm in the face of the Nuclear Age, the illegitimacy of authority, and the subversion of America's nuclear policy of the 1980's to bring about world peace through a Star Wars style Armageddon. If Viedt dies, it legitimizes the black and white morality of a system that the story clearly shows to be flawed.

 

[Sandman138]

Combining Veidt's questions with the expressions on his face show me that he isnt asure he has done the right thing. thats the essence of guilt, he has second guessed him self after the event.

Clearly. When Jon says that line "In the end? Nothing ever ends, Adrien." and Viedt looks at him horrified, we see it. Alexandria was not eternal, utopia is no place, time moves on and ages come to end while new ones begin. Viedt realizes in that instant that he is mortal and his vision will not last and it is written there all over his face. It is beautifully existential, and honestly, it's one of those things I'm not sure film will ever be able to replicate as powerfully.

 

[Sandman138]

i strongly disagree; they are not the same thing. this scale of innocence - some less innocent than others - is irrelevant. murder is murder. an individual - not a president, not law enforcement, not the judicial system - has taken it upon himself to be judge, jury, and executioner - the savior of humanity, and through that salvation he has committed mass murder. he is operating outside the system - outside the law. i don't know how you can look at a president in a time of war making a strategic decision and attack to defeat an enemy and say it's the same thing as some vigilante donning a costume and committing mass murder.

But what makes the state/president more legitimate of an authority figure than the super hero? Remember that at this time, and to this day to a large extent, the superhero was a paragon of the state.

 

[Motown Marvel]

If he dies, the whole movie is pointless. Watchmen is about the inadequacy of the super hero paradigm in the face of the Nuclear Age, the illegitimacy of authority, and the subversion of America's nuclear policy of the 1980's to bring about world peace through a Star Wars style Armageddon. If Viedt dies, it legitimizes the black and white morality of a system that the story clearly shows to be flawed.

snap!

i bet you get so much pu$$y with $#it like that. i know chicks get all wet over comic book analysis.

 

[Mysterio]

you are assuming that Seymour actually picks up RS's journal. we see him reaching for the pile of contributions, of which the journal is just one. Its left by Moore (and deliberatly, i figure) to let the sense of justice that each reader has to imagine where it goes next

true.

Its more likely to crumble simply because of Human nature. we are incapable of a lasting peace with each other. Since the end of WW2, in what is supposedly a time of peace, how many years to you think there have been with out some form of military conflict?

it doesn't matter what the cause is; the point is that the works and achievements won't last.

 

[Mysterio]

But what makes the state/president more legitimate of an authority figure than the super hero? Remember that at this time, and to this day to a large extent, the superhero was a paragon of the state.

because the state/president - our system of government, a representative constitutional republic - is given that authority by the will and permission of the governed. that isn't the case for some guy deciding to wear a costume and fight crime - or save humanity in his own twisted way.

 

[Paloogin]

Veidt dying would just be another reason why you can understand Alan Moore's anti-Hollywood stance. I mean sure, you're going to have to change the story a bit to make it movie worthy, but killing Veidt would be ruining the whole feeling at the end of it.

Those bloody Hollywood people...

 

[Mysterio]

Clearly. When Jon says that line "In the end? Nothing ever ends, Adrien." and Viedt looks at him horrified, we see it. Alexandria was not eternal, utopia is no place, time moves on and ages come to end while new ones begin. Viedt realizes in that instant that he is mortal and his vision will not last and it is written there all over his face. It is beautifully existential, and honestly, it's one of those things I'm not sure film will ever be able to replicate as powerfully.

looks at him horrified? we don't see Veidt's facial expression until after Jon disappears, and it isn't one of horror.

 

[Philly Phanboy]

Veidt dying would just be another reason why you can understand Alan Moore's anti-Hollywood stance. I mean sure, you're going to have to change the story a bit to make it movie worthy, but killing Veidt would be ruining the whole feeling at the end of it.

Those bloody Hollywood people...

Agreed. At the very least ZS should film the authentic ending as well as the Veidt dies ending and test screen the two to see which is better recieved.

 

[Motown Marvel]

because the state/president - our system of government, a representative constitutional republic - is given that authority by the will and permission of the governed. that isn't the case for some guy deciding to wear a costume and fight crime - or save humanity in his own twisted way.

so the difference between right and wrong is dependant on a persons rank and position in society?

looks at him horrified? we don't see Veidt's facial expression until after Jon disappears, and it isn't one of horror.

it is a look of great concern though. clearly what jon tells veidt has him second guessing the righteousness of his actions.

 

[Motown Marvel]

Agreed. At the very least ZS should film the authentic ending as well as the Veidt dies ending and test screen the two to see which is better recieved.

even test screening his death would be a bad idea. his death gives comfort and closure to the novel, and audiences generally go for comfort and closure, they'd probably rate it well. but the ending of watchmen isnt suppose to be comforting, nor is there suppose to be definitive closure.

 

[StorminNorman]

snap!

i bet you get so much pu$$y with $#it like that. i know chicks get all wet over comic book analysis.

lol congratulations - you just proved yourself a complete and utter asshat

 

[Gilpesh]

because the state/president - our system of government, a representative constitutional republic - is given that authority by the will and permission of the governed. that isn't the case for some guy deciding to wear a costume and fight crime - or save humanity in his own twisted way.

Actually the state/president is just a whole bunch of guys who decided to wear a costume and fight crime - or save humanity in his own twisted way...

They just picked business suits over tights.

 

[Motown Marvel]

lol congratulations - you just proved yourself a complete and utter asshat

yes! im living up to my mother's expectations!

 

[Sandman138]

looks at him horrified? we don't see Veidt's facial expression until after Jon disappears, and it isn't one of horror.

Okay, just went back and checked. He's looking at where Jon was standing, an orrery. Horrified was too strong a word, but look at his face. Throughout the entire book, he is depicted as either stoic or satisfied with himself. In this one frame, there is tremendous doubt, and grief. He did all of it because he thought he could save the world, only to realize too late that the world will keep turning. It's monumental.

 

[Sandman138]

because the state/president - our system of government, a representative constitutional republic - is given that authority by the will and permission of the governed. that isn't the case for some guy deciding to wear a costume and fight crime - or save humanity in his own twisted way.

And what does that matter to the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

 

[Overman27pj]

Sandman, right on. Well said.

 

[brobdingnag]

then i guess i don't understand the story. whether Veidt lives or dies at the end is immaterial; what matters is 1) his plan succeeded, and 2) the other heroes remain complicit in the conspiracy.

I can see both sides of it. You are right about the plan and the other heroes cooperation, but its just a hell of a better story with Veidt living, than dying.

 

[brobdingnag]

And what does that matter to the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

It means they are now our ally, because we were smart enough to totally defeat our enemies.

 

[Sandman138]

It means they are now our ally, because we were smart enough to totally defeat our enemies.

That didn't even answer the question.

 

[Mysterio]

And what does that matter to the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

it doesn't. your point?