Days of Future Past Simon Kinberg Penning First Class Sequel

[Marvel]

More Charles is ok but we need this for sure in the sequel...

 

[Quetzal]

^ That is arguably the greatest post I have seen here.

 

[craigdbfan]

More Charles is ok but we need this for sure in the sequel...

Thundercats eat your heart out.

 

[bunk]

That's hilarious.

 

[Loganbabe]

Lolz!

 

[merbass]

I hope this is not one of those news that came out to promote the BD / DVD release then disappeared altogether. Remember Narnia ? It made more money than XFC and sequel was in the work then everything is just gone.

 

[Mrs Vimes]

It would be really great if they could show at least one scene of young Charles discovering his powers and how they affected him...

I doubt it will happen unless it somehow links with the plot of the movie. I mean, one of the reasons why we got to see Erik first discovering his powers in detail was because they attract Shaw's attention and that's where the whole revenge story kicks off. Whereas Charles' discovery of his powers is not really linked to the Shaw/Cuban missile crisis story in the same way.

 

[danoyse]

More Charles is ok but we need this for sure in the sequel...

Maybe a First Class Christmas special?

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

What the **** is Simon Kinberg doing on this flick? Hope it doesnt get overloaded with new characters. Feel free to add Fantomex though.

Is Vaughn confirmed yet?

I'd like to see Fantomex.

 

[Nerial]

I doubt it will happen unless it somehow links with the plot of the movie. I mean, one of the reasons why we got to see Erik first discovering his powers in detail was because they attract Shaw's attention and that's where the whole revenge story kicks off. Whereas Charles' discovery of his powers is not really linked to the Shaw/Cuban missile crisis story in the same way.

Have to agree. Unless there's a purpose to show Charles discovering his powers that's directly related to the main plot, then there's no point to it. I'm not saying I don't want to see it, but I want a tightly-woven story more.

 

[Loganbabe]

I mean, one of the reasons why we got to see Erik first discovering his powers in detail was because they attract Shaw's attention and that's where the whole revenge story kicks off. Whereas Charles' discovery of his powers is not really linked to the Shaw/Cuban missile crisis story in the same way.

But the problem is that the story was supposed to be about the origins of both Erik and Charles, and not just Erik's powers and how they related with Shaw. If the movie was called Magneto: Origins okay, but it wasn't. That's the biggest problem I have with FC - I always expected it would be the story of Xavier too, but it seems he was in the story just to be of service to Magneto's story. That's sad. Unfortunately I agree they will do nothing to change the situation in Second Class and show Charles learning about his powers when they had the chance to do it in FC; it's just wishful thinking from me.

 

[Nerial]

But the problem is that the story was supposed to be about the origins of both Erik and Charles, and not just Erik's powers and how they related with Shaw. If the movie was called Magneto: Origins okay, but it wasn't. That's the biggest problem I have with FC - I always expected it would be the story of Xavier too, but it seems he was in the story just to be of service to Magneto's story. That's sad. Unfortunately I agree they will do nothing to change the situation in Second Class and show Charles learning about his powers when they had the chance to do it in FC; it's just wishful thinking from me.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you, Loganbabe. While I do believe that Erik's story arc came full-circle in XMFC (and he had the better plotline, to be honest), there was no point to show Charles' telepathic origins. He got to see him as a child; he got to see him generously offering his home to a fellow mutant, plus he still got to use his powers in that scene. We got a sense that of his empathic personality and good-hearted nature--that, to me, is more important than seeing him first figuring out that he's telepathic.

 

[Loganbabe]

But why showing Charles' telepathy manifesting wouldn't be a point, since the movie was about his story as well? Or at least is was supposed to be?
I think that there needed to be a bit more of conflict to Charles. They made it seem as if being a telepath is like the easiest thing in the world and why, a young boy hearing voices inside his head would think it was a really natural thing to happen and not worry at all.
The audience usually identify themselves with conflicted characters; while I love good damaged and dark character as much as the next person, I strongly disagree that a flawed character is necessarily "better". Showing that Charles was a good-hearted man and his empathy was really nice and all, but frankly, a good portion of the audience - especially the young male audience - thought he was just a bumbling idiot and a pampered rich boy. Showing a bit more of turmoil when his power manifested would be really interesting for his development. I don't think it's simply "easy" to be a telepath.

 

[blueserenity]

But why showing Charles' telepathy manifesting wouldn't be a point, since the movie was about his story as well? Or at least is was supposed to be?
I think that there needed to be a bit more of conflict to Charles. They made it seem as if being a telepath is like the easiest thing in the world and why, a young boy hearing voices inside his head would think it was a really natural thing to happen and not worry at all.
The audience usually identify themselves with conflicted characters; while I love good damaged and dark character as much as the next person, I strongly disagree that a flawed character is necessarily "better". Showing that Charles was a good-hearted man and his empathy was really nice and all, but frankly, a good portion of the audience - especially the young male audience - thought he was just a bumbling idiot and a pampered rich boy. Showing a bit more of turmoil when his power manifested would be really interesting for his development. I don't think it's simply "easy" to be a telepath.

I agree with Nerial. As cool as it would be to go in-depth into Charles' past, it's not really necessary, especially in a 2hr long movie. If XMFC was a TV series, absolutely. But there is nothing in Charles' past that can advance the plot, really. We learn the key things about his history within the first 15 mins of the film. He is rich and spoiled, but also a fairly lonely child who spent the first 12 years of his life dreaming that he would one day find someone like him and together they would make each other not alone anymore. His parents didn't love him as seen by the photo, the fakemum's sweetness, and the idea that a little blonde girl could just live with them and no one would notice. We learn that his father died at some point in his life and his mother remarried and it's hinted that stepdad was maybe a little paranoid. In comicverse Charles was abused by said stepdad, but I don't think that's necessary in this universe. And obviously, Charles didn't have a half-brother in this verse either.

Anyway the stuff that happened to Charles in his past isn't nearly as relevant as what's happening in his present. There is nothing in there that would advance the plot and in such a limited timeframe flashbacks have to have meaning.
I think Charles' REAL telepathic advances will happen now. With his body not entirely under his control anymore I imagine it will mean a lot more time spent in his head. He really is the most bloody powerful mutant you can think of and I don't think that's dawned on him yet (though it may have dawned on Erik). He's been so busy helping others hone their powers and just arrogant enough to believe he's reached his peak so he doesn't really need training. The sequel can change all that and with those new powers come new plots or new ways to beat the baddies or what have you. That is the only kind of Charles development I can see. I would be genuinely (but pleasantly)surprised if they flashback at all. You just don't need to.

Sorry Loganbabe, I know Xavier's your favorite but I'm just being reaistic. :/

 

[Loganbabe]

We learn the key things about his history within the first 15 mins of the film.

I really doubt most viewers really got all you're talking about, though. We get it because we spend a lot of time thinking about the movie and the characters. I was having a conversation about the Charles/Erik dynamics with a friend of mine who likes the X-Men (in movies) but not to the point of dedicating herself to forums and reading stuff and all that, and she was like "well, there's a whole lot of things about Charles I never thought about" - because she was team Erik all the way when she watched the movie, she could identify only with his side of the story and the motives for what he did what he did, because after all it's his side of the story that was shown. She's still team Erik btw, but not so much more just a "I liked that Charles was a bit of a drunk and a lousy flirt and that was it".

Anyway, we don't even know if there will be a second movie; and if there is a second movie I highly doubt Vaughn will "see the light" and start to care about Charles Xavier and his problems. I wish he would but I'm really pessimist about it. Charles will just remain underdeveloped then, as it seems to be a consensus.

 

[Mrs Vimes]

\The audience usually identify themselves with conflicted characters; while I love good damaged and dark character as much as the next person, I strongly disagree that a flawed character is necessarily "better". Showing that Charles was a good-hearted man and his empathy was really nice and all, but frankly, a good portion of the audience - especially the young male audience - thought he was just a bumbling idiot and a pampered rich boy. Showing a bit more of turmoil when his power manifested would be really interesting for his development. I don't think it's simply "easy" to be a telepath.

I don't see though how showing Charles' turmoil over telepathy would make him more appealing to the audience who prefer a damaged and dark character. I mean yes, you could give him a more angsty backstory but he is simply not, essentially, a dark character and whatever he'd have gone through in his childhood just can't stack up in drama and pain department to Erik's past - and it's not like anyone in the audience can relate to the experience of telepathy either. I can't see how you could make him more interesting to people who think that good-hearted, empathetic characters are "boring" without totally re-writing him at the core. And let's face it - Charles is just not an action-oriented, physical character like Erik or Wolverine - of course they're going to be more popular with young male audience.

Also, apart from two scenes for each character (well two for Erik but his scene with Shaw happens very soon after the first manifestation of his powers), the movie doesn't dwell much on either of Charles and Erik's childhoods and jumps straight into their adult lives. If you're going to explore the trouble Charles might have had with his telepathy in childhood, there's not much point in just showing it briefly and then moving on to present times when Charles is totally in control and happily uses telepathy to pick up girls. You'd have to show some development in between over the years for his turmoil to actually have any resonance and that doesn't really fit with the momentum of the story. This is after all not a character piece, it's a fast-paced comic book movie.

And I think that it's not that Charles' side of the story wasn't shown, it's simply that his side is not as emotionally charged and dramatic in this movie, whether or not you include telepathy angst or lonely childhood or whatever (I'm course talking about the majority of the movie because Charles' injury near the end and what it means for him is a whole different story - but it does only happen at the very end). Erik's connection to the main Shaw storyline - revenge of a loved one - would always make his storyline much more compelling to many people.

But in terms of actual screentime, I don't think that Charles got any less of it than Erik. In fact there are a few scenes where Charles and Erik are both present with focus clearly on Charles and Erik just sorta hanging around in the background.

 

[Mrs Vimes]

Personally, what I'd like to see more in these movies (not that I think it's going to happen) is a tad more complexity given to the whole human/mutant relations. I know that the main characters are mutants and the whole series is from the mutant point of view, but I always feel that the challenges that the individuals with superhuman abilities present to human society aren't really acknowledged and basically whenever someone brings up the whole question of security it's always by loathesome bigots, which IMO is a rather easy way out of that discussion.

 

[def28]

I'd like to see Fantomex.

If they had Darwin and Chick Angel I dont see why Fantomex couldnt be added. I think hed be a solid fit into the First Class series , a faux french thief during the time period could be entertaining. His powers and explaining the World may be a bit tricky, then again they never get things right/explain origins correctly in these movies so Im sure it wouldnt be a problem.

 

[Nerial]

I don't see though how showing Charles' turmoil over telepathy would make him more appealing to the audience who prefer a damaged and dark character. I mean yes, you could give him a more angsty backstory but he is simply not, essentially, a dark character and whatever he'd have gone through in his childhood just can't stack up in drama and pain department to Erik's past - and it's not like anyone in the audience can relate to the experience of telepathy either. I can't see how you could make him more interesting to people who think that good-hearted, empathetic characters are "boring" without totally re-writing him at the core. And let's face it - Charles is just not an action-oriented, physical character like Erik or Wolverine - of course they're going to be more popular with young male audience.

Also, apart from two scenes for each character (well two for Erik but his scene with Shaw happens very soon after the first manifestation of his powers), the movie doesn't dwell much on either of Charles and Erik's childhoods and jumps straight into their adult lives. If you're going to explore the trouble Charles might have had with his telepathy in childhood, there's not much point in just showing it briefly and then moving on to present times when Charles is totally in control and happily uses telepathy to pick up girls. You'd have to show some development in between over the years for his turmoil to actually have any resonance and that doesn't really fit with the momentum of the story. This is after all not a character piece, it's a fast-paced comic book movie.

And I think that it's not that Charles' side of the story wasn't shown, it's simply that his side is not as emotionally charged and dramatic in this movie, whether or not you include telepathy angst or lonely childhood or whatever (I'm course talking about the majority of the movie because Charles' injury near the end and what it means for him is a whole different story - but it does only happen at the very end). Erik's connection to the main Shaw storyline - revenge of a loved one - would always make his storyline much more compelling to many people.

But in terms of actual screentime, I don't think that Charles got any less of it than Erik. In fact there are a few scenes where Charles and Erik are both present with focus clearly on Charles and Erik just sorta hanging around in the background.

Loganbade, I have to agree with Mrs. Vimes completely on this. I'm a huge Charles fan myself, but the only way to make him more appealing to the general male audience is to change his character completely. As Mrs. Vimes pointed out, Charles has never been the action-oriented character or the Magneto/Wolverine type. I wouldn't want him to be; it's just not his way.

The audience got to know Charles well enough through the movie to either love him, like him or hate him. He got plenty of screen time and even had moments where he got to shine (the training montage, saving Erik's life, the meeting at the CIA, and the parts where he was hitting on women were some of the funniest in the movie--just to name a few). You can't force the audience to love a character, even by showing more of them, including their childhood. They liked Magneto better; that's fine. I liked Charles better and that's fine, too.

I hope, just as you do, that Charles goes through some serious turmoil in the next movie--with his injury and everything else--it would just make sense that he'd be messed up to some extent. But it's still a comic book blockbuster, and things still need to go BOOM.

As far as XMFC is concerned--say all you want, but if it weren't for that movie, I would not have become a Charles fan. I've always liked Xavier, but thought he was a little too good. And even if McAvoy thought up the idea to make Charles into a partying lady's man, MV and the writers would have to approve it. And they did and it was great.

But a good story is one that focuses on the main plot. If it's not relevant to the main plot in some fashion, it shouldn't be included. Charles learning about his telepathy was not relevant; the writers didn't include it. That's all there is to it.

 

[Loganbabe]

It seems that we'll have to agree to disagree, then. I still think that Charles was in the movie just to be of service to Magneto's story, and maybe it'll continue to be like this in the next. James' dedication and ideas to the character somehow avoided Charles being too much of wallpaper in FC, but since he's now a "cripple and a teacher" and they have to find "Magneto's new nemesis", well...maybe he'll have even less to do. Who knows, he might even enjoy and it, and he'll still get payed.

 

[Nerial]

It seems that we'll have to agree to disagree, then. I still think that Charles was in the movie just to be of service to Magneto's story, and maybe it'll continue to be like this in the next. James' dedication and ideas to the character somehow avoided Charles being too much of wallpaper in FC, but since he's now a "cripple and a teacher" and they have to find "Magneto's new nemesis", well...maybe he'll have even less to do. Who knows, he might even enjoy and it, and he'll still get payed.

I will say this--the heart of XMFC was the relationship between Erik and Charles; without it, the movie would have sucked. Almost every critic's review praised how well that relationship worked and without it, the next movie will be flat. So they have to figure out a way to get these two together again or at least, have them facing the same issues (which isn't too hard--they're both mutants).

 

[blueserenity]

I agree Nerial. I was never a Charles fan, EVER, and now he's my second-favorite character (lost by a hair to Erik). I'm sure I've written this before, but thought he was super interesting because he was suddenly REAL. He has flaws and weaknesses like normal people. You don't have to be damaged to be interesting. Some of the most screwed up characters are tremendously boring. But you can't be perfect either, and young Charles showed he was "human" and makes mistakes. Which is awesome.

XMFC was Magneto's film more than the other characters', I agree with that, but Charles was very much a close second. It was Magneto's tragedy that drove the film, which is fine. Charles is the glue that holds the X-Men together. He's not really the one who takes initiative in this film. If he had never met Moira and learned of the Hellfire club, he probably would have been content to living his life as before-- chatting up the ladies and quietly being a mutant. Erik on the other hand is a man who never stops moving, so he really has to be the one to drive the action. Hence, this movie was a little more his than Charles', but really it was THEIR film. You hit the nail on the head Nerial, this movie would have sucked without their chemistry.

Oh dear, rambling again. TL;DR, I love Charles, I love Erik more, but I don't think XMFC skimped on Charles.

 

[Loganbabe]

Erik on the other hand is a man who never stops moving, so he really has to be the one to drive the action. Hence, this movie was a little more his than Charles', but really it was THEIR film.

It'll always be about Magneto, then. He'll always be the one to drive the action, hence Vaughn already stating "we have to find a new nemesis to fight Magneto, now that Charles is in a wheelchair".
Maybe it's great and all if you're a Magneto fan, which is not my case. I loved their chemistry and the idea of Charles and Erik working together, but from the moment Erik decided to put that helmet on, turn into Magneto and leave his brother dying at some beach, well...I really despise what he did. And I see nothing interesting or exciting in Magneto trying to kill Kennedy or battling some cool new villain, which is maybe what the next writer will try to bring into the film - more cool action scenes (which would leave Charles entirely out of the picture) and less character development.

Yes, a lot of people loved them together, but Charles and Erik are enemies now, and I doubt the next film will change this. They will be separated entities, sharing maybe two or three great scenes and that will be it. Vaughn and the writers and the producers will simply chose to keep the focus on Magneto, since he's the one the audience seems to be more interested in. And voilá. As someone who is as tired of Magneto as others are tired of Wolverine, I'll simply avoid Second Class if the focus is on him again. No big deal...the first time I read about FC I expected it to be more a Charles and the X-Men story, it wasn't, I think I'm more than prepared to expect the next to continue focusing on Magneto's crusade against humanity. Because villains will always be cooler, it seems.

 

[Mrs Vimes]

Charles is the glue that holds the X-Men together. He's not really the one who takes initiative in this film. If he had never met Moira and learned of the Hellfire club, he probably would have been content to living his life as before-- chatting up the ladies and quietly being a mutant.

True but I'd also argue that it's Charles who was driving the whole mutant initiative, and Erik mostly going along with him; had he not convinced Erik to join up, Erik would just have gone on his one-man mission and most likely would have perished. And though they were working together, I always had a sense that Charles was really in charge with Erik as his right hand man - Charles just seems to automatically act as a leader around everyone else. It was really rather striking how much the power balance between them shifted once Erik put on that helmet.

 

[blueserenity]

Yes, a lot of people loved them together, but Charles and Erik are enemies now, and I doubt the next film will change this. They will be separated entities, sharing maybe two or three great scenes and that will be it. Vaughn and the writers and the producers will simply chose to keep the focus on Magneto, since he's the one the audience seems to be more interested in. And voilá. As someone who is as tired of Magneto as others are tired of Wolverine, I'll simply avoid Second Class if the focus is on him again. No big deal...the first time I read about FC I expected it to be more a Charles and the X-Men story, it wasn't, I think I'm more than prepared to expect the next to continue focusing on Magneto's crusade against humanity. Because villains will always be cooler, it seems.

People keep making this mistake-- they're not enemies now. They're not exactly friends, they're in a grey area between. Yes, Magneto did something horrible by leaving him on the beach (as much as I love him, this move was unforgivable). But as I've said before, neither one of them has done something to pit the two groups directly against each other, they're just on diverging paths for now. And these are still two men who love each other deeply. I mean they always will, but it's not enough yet for them to make that secondary and become direct enemies.

I'm not sure why you keep generalizing, such things as "villains are always cooler" or "people always go for the messed up characters". They're simply not true. Personally all of my favorite comic characters save for Erik are heroes. Magneto was never in my top 10 until 1) he was more of an anti-hero in XMFC than a flat out villain and 2) he was played by Michael Fassbender. If villains were always cooler, they'd all have their own comic lines or films.

I will say (again) though that I believe audiences often need characters they can relate to. If you make them too pure, too saintly, too god-like, too devoid of even small flaws, a lot of the audience can lose interest because the characters are too untouchable, or too simple. Examples: oldmovieCharles (no visible flaws until X3 when he uncharacteristically snaps at Wolverine), Superman (I find Clark more interesting), Captain America (seriously he had no flaws whatsoever, and hardly any personality either beyond HEROIC). I don't know much about comic Green Lantern, and the movie was beyond dull, but I liked the personality of GL in the movie. I got the impression that it wasn't Hal Jordany at ALL, but it didn't matter. An average joe gets powers disposed upon him and while he does heroically take up the mantle and use them to save people, he also uses them to show off a little, which we can all relate to! Same with Spider-Man, he gets these incredible powers and what is the first thing he does? He enters into a wrestling competition to make extra cash. It's such a human response.

XMFC changed the way many, many people view Charles and made him way more likeable, which you should be super pleased about. He will still be a major character in a sequel, and I still think he has a good chance at leading the plot, but I think Erik has a better chance. These films work because of them, together. So I'm not at all worried about how much shared screen time they'll have.

I'm not keen on the Kennedy assassination idea though. To me it's a little distasteful, and I'm not even American. Also the rationale I've heard for Magneto doing it seems pretty petty to me.