Stan Lee shouldn't get credit for the creation of the Silver Surfer!

[highguard]

Ok. Cool. That does not answer the question thou of WHY it was cut, after all the fuss made over how it was going to be a tribut to Kirby ? Think that question goes along with the whole Kirby getting credit discussion.

I think it being cut tells us a thing or two. Filming this I think was Tim Story's idea. He understands the Kirby thing. However I think that it must have been discussed at some point as to why it should be in the film. FOx let him film it, I don't think it was in the script or book that I read.

So I think that when Fox told the editor to cut the film down they discussed what could be cut and that was one of the scenes the suits must have said was not necessary.

I think it dissed Kirby and Kerry Washington.

Fox that was stupid, do better ok. Show some understanding of what a nod to the creators would do to spreding love for your films and respect Kerry as really adding something to your film.

We know we ain't getting Luke Cage but Kerry is a very talented actor.

 

[Carp Man]

I think it being cut tells us a thing or two. Filming this I think was Tim Story's idea. He understands the Kirby thing. However I think that it must have been discussed at some point as to why it should be in the film. FOx let him film it, I don't think it was in the script or book that I read.

So I think that when Fox told the editor to cut the film down they discussed what could be cut and that was one of the scenes the suits must have said was not necessary.

I think it dissed Kirby and Kerry Washington.

Fox that was stupid, do better ok. Show some understanding of what a nod to the creators would do to spreding love for your films and respect Kerry as really adding something to your film.

We know we ain't getting Luke Cage but Kerry is a very talented actor.

Me thinks you hit the nail on the head. That was not in anything I read, except the comic itself. In my opinion it was a huge mistake cutting those scenes out. What would it have added, another 5 minutes to the running time ? Show some respect this time Rothman.

 

[Iron Maiden]

Undoubtedly, Jack Kirby's contribution was huge. But like Stan, even his memory got fuzzy after a while. He shocked convention goers once when he proclaimed that he even created Spider-Man. True, Stan asked him for a sketch but he rejected it and collaborated with Steve Ditko instead. When interviewed, Stan always gives credit to Jack Kirby but over the years Stan became the face of Marvel, frequently touring college campuses back in the turbulent 60's and 70's...and became quite popular. He wrote the very personalized letters pages on just about all the titles back them, creating an "insider" atmosphere with the fans, even acknowledging his boo boo's by awarding worthy candidates with "no prizes". There is no doubt that Stan edited all the books at one time in Marvel's early days and took on other artists like Don Heck, John Romita, Herbe Trimpe and Don Heck to lighten the load on Kirby's shoulders. They all did the books "Marvel style" because it was quicker. Stan would give them the basic plot and then dialogue it when the artwork was complete. John Romita says in "The Art of Jack Kirby", it wasn't unusual for Stan to rewrite or act as the art editor and give work back to Jack to be redone because of a change. But obviously gave Jack free rein on a lot of things too. A lot of people don't like to talk about the "Jack the Hack" era either, where Kirby was just humored with lesser titles for a while. But a lot of that happened at DC as I recall.

 

[bubbadoom]

Guyverjay is correct, Stan did come up with the "Norrin Radd" origin, and I can still recall [as a nine year old in 1968] how WRONG that felt when I read it at the time. It was 180 degrees away from what Jack had intended, and it was so obvious, even to a kid! At least the '70's SURFER graphic novel is closer to what Jack had in mind [it opens and closes with the Surfer flying out of the hand of Galactus - no mention of Zen La, etc.]

I am sure they will both get credit for the creation, but it would be nice if they put Jack's name first [like they did on the first episode of the cartoon show, but then changed it after that!].

 

[bubbadoom]

Jack has taken credit for Spider-Man because he brought the name of the character to Marvel [so there would have not been a Spider-Man with out him]. But the basic idea was done as "The Fly" a few years earlier by Simon and Kirby at Harvey, and Ditko recognized this and changed it to what it is today. Never wanting to let a good idea go to waste, Kirby re-worked his Spider-Man costume design into Ant Man, and the identity switching gimick of normal guy into super hero into Thor.

 

[50yroldfffan]

Well said bubbadoom. I to noticed the change, he became a wuss instead of an alien shooting cosmic fire from his hands. In fact Jack was asked to save the surfer comic after his return to Marvel from DC. He was asked to save it after it's short run and falling sales but he refused, he believed they (STAN) had wrecked his creation. Those who say Kirby stumbled without Stan and point at his lack of memorable characters could say the same of Stan what did he create to match their past glory? Stan was a wordsman not a creater.

Guyverjay is correct, Stan did come up with the "Norrin Radd" origin, and I can still recall [as a nine year old in 1968] how WRONG that felt when I read it at the time. It was 180 degrees away from what Jack had intended, and it was so obvious, even to a kid! At least the '70's SURFER graphic novel is closer to what Jack had in mind [it opens and closes with the Surfer flying out of the hand of Galactus - no mention of Zen La, etc.]

I am sure they will both get credit for the creation, but it would be nice if they put Jack's name first [like they did on the first episode of the cartoon show, but then changed it after that!].

 

[50yroldfffan]

It's nice to see how many of you guys know your history. I'm not a Stan Lee hater but it rubbed me wrong when I read in Wizard's 2007 movie spectacular issue on page 117 under caption head. "Stans favorite Son" it reads as follows, "Legendary writer and founding father of the Marvel Universe Stan Lee has often cited the Silver Surfer among his favorite characters of the hundreds "HE" created."
"HE created?" not a mention of Kirby now thats wrong! The Surfer sprang from the mind of Jack's and only Jack's if you believe the acount as read in Ronin Ro's book "Tales to Astonish" of Kirbys first showing the surfer to Stan in his artwork for FF issue 48.

Jack Kirby deserves -at the very least- 50% of the credit for the existence of the FF and every character created in the pages of FF through issue #102. Period.

Stan may have dialogued the finished pages, but it was largely Jack that "wrote" them with pictures and words of his own. I'm certain of this because of all the Kirby original pages I've seen (and a few that I own) which have Jack's story directions and dialogue suggestions written in blue pencil all around the margins.
Stan says they "discussed" or "worked out" the story (very roughly) and then Jack drew the stories and Lee would write the dialogue after the fact. This is basically true, but it's very easy to get an exaggerated idea of how much Stan actually did.

Not trying to take away from Stan. But it sure would be great if the Truth were more popularly known. And I don't fault Stan that much; in fact, he has been very outspoken about giving credit where credit is due in the last 10-15 years.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Hah, Stan was the suit, the inside man, the editor, family connections to the moneybag, all that, it was all of these things that rubbed kirby the worng way after a while.

Kirby always worked exceedingly hard but always felt underappreciated financilly and otherwise. THe Jack Kirby collector once described a situation that showed that Kirby really hated editor types living off his creativity. So that explains some of his issues with Stan as stan really was the Man (the Suit) at Marvel.

Nevertheless Stan's role was often underappreciated. Heck he sued Marvel a couple of years ago.

I love Stan though, he is the ultimate fanboy.

I miss Jack, and Joe Sinnot (Where are you Joe) and John Buscema and all the greats who contributed to the greatness of these characters. Someday when Marvel is rolling in the dough I hope they look around at some of the aging creators and give something back, yeah do it even if you don't have to.

These guys created a world that we played in as kids, kept us from going crazy sometimes (I think) and for that I say thanks.

i'm STILL playing in it.

 

[Hyperstorm]

While Kirby created the look and purpose of the Surfer, it was Lee who made him the character he is today. Kirby thought of him as a either a cold, emotion-less robot-like character or a rebellious angel who would betray his Master for himself and not for humanity. Stan was the one who made him a selfless character who betrayed Galactus because of the kindness that a single Earth woman had shown him. He gave him a back story of having sacrificed himself to save his world even though it meant leaving the love of his life. It was Lee and Buscema who made him a philosopher and peace-loving character who quickly grew tired of humanity's violent nature and resentful of the planet he was trapped on but continued to save lives even though by doing so he lost his chance of escaping from Earth multiple times. IMO Stan Lee deserves co-credit for creating the Silver Surfer along with Kirby. It's just a shame the Buscema who worked with Stan to develop most of the Surfers back story won't get any credit.

 

[highguard]

^^^ I don't think that you can give Stan Co creation credit. Cause ultimately Jack created the character and Stan and others fleshed him out. Stan was the first to do so granted.

However Cumulatively Stan's contribution to Marvel was certainly as great if not greater than Jack's as he set the whole tone as well as took the opportunity to really make comic book collectors feel like some part of a geeky club with his Bullpen bulletins, letter's pages and no prizes.

I am glad that stan gets to be in all the movies, If jack had been alive he should have had his part in these movies as well, certainly FF.

I think that is why Tim Story tried to give us this in the movie with the art gallery.

Lets hope Rothman who claims to be a geek will take off his horns and realize that others that are also fans of the comic know a thing or two about what they are doing.

I fully expect if Tim does a directors cut for all those scenes to be reinserted.

 

[Hyperstorm]

^^^ I don't think that you can give Stan Co creation credit. Cause ultimately Jack created the character and Stan and others fleshed him out. Stan was the first to do so granted.

He still wrote the Surfer's first appearance and is thus the co-creator. It's pretty much the reverse of most other comic characters where the writer creates a basic description of what the character looks like and gives it to the artist who designs them and then both receive credit as co-creators. This time the artist (Kirby) designed a character and gave it to the writer (Lee) who fleshes him out.

 

[highguard]

He still wrote the Surfer's first appearance and is thus the co-creator. It's pretty much the reverse of most other comic characters where the writer creates a basic description of what the character looks like and gives it to the artist who designs them and then both receive credit as co-creators. This time the artist (Kirby) designed a character and gave it to the writer (Lee) who fleshes him out.

I see your point but in that instance its 60/40 at most, in this case Kirby already knew who this guy was, Stan provided dialogue to a character that basically was already defined. Its hard to give stan even 40 % for his contribution but he does not need it. He was the major contributor on so many other characters but I don't think you can say that for SS.

He was not even in the script, Jack came up with him based on his view of the majesty of Galactus and that such a being had to have a herald.

So you can say that Lee is 60/40 on Galactus but on SS it's about 90/10 at least in Kirby's favor.

 

[spider-neil]

kirby has **** all to do with the creation of spider-man.
ditko is short changed enough without kirby trying to take even MORE credit away from him.

 

[Hyperstorm]

I see your point but in that instance its 60/40 at most, in this case Kirby already knew who this guy was, Stan provided dialogue to a character that basically was already defined. Its hard to give stan even 40 % for his contribution but he does not need it. He was the major contributor on so many other characters but I don't think you can say that for SS.

He was not even in the script, Jack came up with him based on his view of the majesty of Galactus and that such a being had to have a herald.

So you can say that Lee is 60/40 on Galactus but on SS it's about 90/10 at least in Kirby's favor.

Except the character wasn't totally defined until Lee wrote him. As I said Kirby came up with the basic concept and the look but it was Lee who gave him his character in the issue he first appeared in. I'd say Lee deserves at least 40% of the credit for making the Surfer what he was and is. I'm not saying Kirby doesn't deserve credit but you shouldn't shortchange Lee and what he did for the Surfer.

 

[Dragon]

Um, Fourth World.

And before Marvel? Kirby created or co-created Captain America, Boy Commandos, Newsboy Legion, The Fly, Manhunter, Challengers of the Unknown, etc etc etc

By comparison, Lee's output before and after Jack was fairly minimal.

Fourth World wasn't that huge a hit when Jack was originally working on it. Did it last more than 2 years? The characters generated from Fourth World really came into popularity by writers/editors/artists reviving them long afterward.

And Boy commmandos etc. are only nostalgia. They haven't remained mainstays as have the FF et al for approaching 50 years. Even Captain America's first incarnation didn't last as long as the revived Cap under Stan Lee.

And Lee's success is evident as it was the same working with the Likes of Steve Ditko, Don Heck and others. Not only working with Jack. And as I'd mentioned before, it certainly isn't like Jack didn't try to grab credit from others, such as his saying he created Spidey, when Ditko designed him from scratch after Jack's design was rejected by Lee. Which is another sign of Lee's skill. He could've "gone with a winner" and accepted Jack's design of Spidey- but he knew what he was going for and gave Ditko the reigns.

 

[Iron Maiden]

I think part of the problem was, as someone mentioned earlier, Stan was looked at by Jack Kirby as a "company" man. They tried to give him a position within the company, I believe art director or something like that, but he refused. He preferred to work from home and would have to commute into the city every day. Then he moved to California and mailed his work in. Other Silver Age artists from that era, Gene Colan or John Romita, remain friends with Stan to this day.

For his part, Stan never could understand the estrangement but felt that in the last couple of years of his life, Jack was starting to soften his view on him a bit. For sure, the Silver Surfer was a sore point with Jack but he would have been very familiar with the "work for hire" concept, especially since that was the norm in the shop he ran with Joe Simon. It is only fairly recently that the compensation and ownership issues have become more favorable to the writers and artists. Even with that, there has not been that explosion of characters that happened in Marvel's heyday.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

And Jack needed Lee to guide him.

Disgusting, and proof that you don't know what you're talking about and seem to have bought in to the distortions and outright lies Stan "The Sham" Lee has been spreading for decades. The best stuff Jack did was the stuff where he alone wrote, drew and edited.

As far as popular success, Stan Lee also has created a TON of stuff that is nowhere NEAR as big as the stuff from the glory days of Marvel.
That isn't because he doesn't have Jack around. It's just a natural thing, as artists get older and fall out of touch with the interests of the youth culture, and as they just plain get old, such as the way Jack's art became increasingly crude at the end of his life.

TONS of what made Marvel Marvel is due not only to Jack's Godlike creative powers of design and concept, but also the outrageously entertaining plots he devised, where Lee would literally just come in and put words to the pictures, just like a guy paid to slap English dialogue over an old Godzilla film.

That wasn't always the case, of course Lee came up with story concepts and he would "assign" them to Jack, but often this would be like, "Hey, Jack. Let's do a time travel story where they go to ancient Egypt!"

Neat concept! But it was still Jack who went from there and invented the "why's" and "how's" and "who's", AND the amazing art that has informed the creative lives of everyone from Alan Moore, to Mike Mignola, to Walt Simonson, to John Byrne, to Jim Lee, to Steve Rude, to...I could go on all day.


Jack Kirby created the Silver Surfer.
Stan was so "inside the box" that he thought (somewhat correctly, if not accustomed to the insane, bizarre genius of Kirby) that it was a ridiculous idea at first.

 

[Vartha]

I think in the credits it should read, "Created by Jack Kirby and Stan Lee".
Stan should at least honor Jack in some way, he should insist it be listed that way in ROTSS, and in the Surfer movie.

 

[Duneboy]

yeah.

 

[SpiderSensesTingling]

I'm so glad to see this being discussed, and so many good points being made about the history behind the Silver Surfer and other characters that have been around for so long. I've read a ton of the comics, and I've read a few of the big hardback bound history-of-Marvel-comics type books, but I have not read Ro's book.

Young fans need some of this background. It adds depth to the characters that either get the treatment they deserve or don't. It also gives credit to the creators who deserve to be recognized.

Stan needed Jack King Kirby. Jack needed Stan the Man. We are all fortunate to be invited into the world that they and other writers and artists created.

 

[Dragon]

Disgusting, and proof that you don't know what you're talking about and seem to have bought in to the distortions and outright lies Stan "The Sham" Lee has been spreading for decades. The best stuff Jack did was the stuff where he alone wrote, drew and edited.

As far as popular success, Stan Lee also has created a TON of stuff that is nowhere NEAR as big as the stuff from the glory days of Marvel.
That isn't because he doesn't have Jack around. It's just a natural thing, as artists get older and fall out of touch with the interests of the youth culture, and as they just plain get old, such as the way Jack's art became increasingly crude at the end of his life.

TONS of what made Marvel Marvel is due not only to Jack's Godlike creative powers of design and concept, but also the outrageously entertaining plots he devised, where Lee would literally just come in and put words to the pictures, just like a guy paid to slap English dialogue over an old Godzilla film.

That wasn't always the case, of course Lee came up with story concepts and he would "assign" them to Jack, but often this would be like, "Hey, Jack. Let's do a time travel story where they go to ancient Egypt!"

Neat concept! But it was still Jack who went from there and invented the "why's" and "how's" and "who's", AND the amazing art that has informed the creative lives of everyone from Alan Moore, to Mike Mignola, to Walt Simonson, to John Byrne, to Jim Lee, to Steve Rude, to...I could go on all day.

Jack Kirby created the Silver Surfer.
Stan was so "inside the box" that he thought (somewhat correctly, if not accustomed to the insane, bizarre genius of Kirby) that it was a ridiculous idea at first.

You're kidding, right? New Gods, Miracle Man, Kamandi et al weren't anywhere near as well written as FF and Thor. And when Jack went back to Marvel taking over Captain America and spawning new titles like Eternals and 2001, you could see the heavy handedness in his writing. Jack's writing lacked the humanity of his work with with Stan. With Stan, Gods like Thor and Odin still had human frailties. Jack's lone work was simply too grandiose and self-indulgent. Always too big characters with too big missions. Stan toned him down and added subtlety to the stories.

And as far as the Surfer, Stan clearly embraced the concept, making him a star player in the Marvel Universe, generated a background for him that Jack didn't conceive of, and presented him in the Christ-like manner that led to his becoming a fan favorite. All done without Jack.

And again- you can't go by Kirby's camp to judge the whole story since Jack clearly CLEARLY overdid his contribution. The Hulk was based on a woman lifting a car off a child? No way. That wasn't part of the Hulk's make-up until YEARS after Jack had left the book. Even after the end of the Hulk's first series when he appeared in FF and the Avengers there still weren't any rage based transformations. The only hint was in FF #26 when Rick gave the Hulk a tranquilizer to induce the change. Steve Ditko was handling the book in Tales to Astonish when the rage transformations began in earnest.

I love Jack. He was without question a genius. But he CO-created the Marvel Universe. Not created it.

 

[Iron Maiden]

I certainly hope Kirby's assistant and friend of 25 years Mark Evanier comes out with his book this year. He's been working on it for a while, and despite Wilhelm-Scream's opinions, we will be surprised how even-handed it will be in regards to Stan Lee. I am also of the opinion that they did their best work together.... but give Stan some credit. He worked with other artists, like Gene Colan on Daredevil and John Romita on Spider-Man (which is when it really took off in popularity). So he wasn't entirely devoid of talent.

Edited to add this from Mark Evanier's blog:

Today is the birthday of Stan Lee...and I don't think I have to throw in any explanation of who Stan Lee is. He's Stan Lee, that's who he is.

I first met Stan in July of 1970. By that, I mean I met him in person, in the offices of Marvel Comics. But of course, I'd met him years earlier in the pages of Marvel Comics and had been so impacted by his cheery editorial style that it didn't feel like meeting someone new. It was like seeing your old pal Stan again, only for the first time.

I'm not sure how you categorize Stan...writer, creator, editor, spokesperson, media legend. Whatever he is, he's the only one of its kind. It's a pleasure to wish him a joyful birthday day and many more.

Incidentally, I said in an item here the other day that Stan receives a nice percentage of revenues from the current spate of Marvel movies. Stan himself dropped me an e-mail to say this isn't so — "I wish," he wrote. But he should. He should also receive royalties every time one of us rips off some element of his style or manner. If he did, it would make the combined revenues of all the Spider-Man and X-Men movies look like chump change.

Anyway, a Happy Stan Lee Day to you all. Take a moment to face front and hang loose. 'Nuff said.

So if someone who knew both gentleman very well, and worked closely with Jack Kirby, has respect for Stan, then that says a lot.

For more on their collaboration,

Who did what on the Lee-Kirby collaborations?

Ooh...tough one to start with. Well, it's safe to say Jack did all the pencilling. Beyond that, we run into all sorts of semantic arguments having to do with definitions of the word "writing" and with the fact that Mssrs. Lee and Kirby both have/had notoriously poor memories. You also have the fact that, when two creative talents get together and come up with an idea, each of them might honestly believe that he suggested at least the core of the concept if not the entire thing. This happens in any collaboration anywhere and, ultimately, you usually have to just say that they both had the idea. Ergo, I say that the Lee-Kirby creations are Lee-Kirby creations.

Some of the ideas sound more like Stan to me, some sound more like Jack and there's some documentation and other evidence that suggests that certain ideas flowed more from one gent than the other. Even then, even where one person contributed 80% of the notion, they are still Lee-Kirby co-creations. The plots came from both, though Stan has acknowledged that once Marvel started to grow and he became busier, Jack was largely on his own to figure out the details of each story, if not the basic plotline. Stan's dialogue sometimes closely paraphrased marginal notes that Jack wrote while drawing, and sometimes deviated altogether. I do think Stan has been unfairly maligned by those who've said that all he did was retype and polish Jack's notations. I also think Jack was wronged to some extent by credits that gave him no credit for anything other than drawing because he certainly did more than that.



Source: Mark's Jack FAQ

 

[Dragon]

I certainly hope Kirby's assistant, Mark Evanier, comes out with his book this year. He's been working on it for a while, and despite Wilhelm-Scream's opinions, we will be surprised how even-handed it will be in regards to Stan Lee. I am also of the opinion that they did their best work together.... but give Stan some credit. He worked with other artists, like Gene Colan on Daredevil and John Romita on Spider-Man (which is when it really took off in popularity). So he wasn't entirely devoid of talent.

That's exactly my point. There's no taking away the contribution that Jack and Steve Ditko made to Marvel. But Ditko and Kirby fans making it as if Stan did nothing but write some dialogue are taking it too far. As you say, the very fact that Stan was able to work with other artists and produce the same results says how important his contribution was to the development of the characters. That he could for example work with Romita and keep Spidey up to standards for another 6 years after Ditko left makes it clear.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I love Jack. He was without question a genius. But he CO-created the Marvel Universe. Not created it.

Well, to me that's similar to saying that you can't say the X-Men were created by Kirby/Lee because they didn't really "take off" until they were re-worked in the 70's, and they didn't create such popular characters as Wolverine.

Doesn't work that way for me. Someone can "create" something, and then another artist. working within a persistant "world" can take that creation and add to it, and bring new things to it, even elements that might go on to become definitive....but still , none of it would've happened had the originator not CREATED the basic concept first. So, yeah, EVERYTHING in comics is collaborative, but Stan Lee's position as "creator" is obSCENELY overstated.......AND, I have manuscripts from interviews at old conventions in the late 60's and 70's where he jokes about that very thing, about how he likes to create the false impression that he actually was a genius when really he was pretty much riding Jack's coattails.....and he jokes about how he was the driving force behind most of it....as long as Jack Kirby isn't within ear-shot.

One of the big reasons that people idolize this charlatan is because they're ignorant of stuff he's said in the past, before Jack got semi-senile and then died, and before the media-frenzy related to the resurgence of big-budget comicbook movies, etc.


And, it's all subjective. No, I'm not kidding. I MUCH prefer the wild abandon and nutball idiosynchracy with which Jack approached the writing on such stuff as The New Gods, Mister Miracle, The Forever People, Jimmy Olsen, The Demon, Omac, Captain Victory, Silver Star, etc. to the more staid, traditional, confined, mainstream stuff where people tried to reign in, commodify and dilute his madness......by FAR. And you can't dispute it, 'cause it's a matter of opinion. You can't empirically prove the merit of art.

You say "heavy handed, self-indulgent and grandiose" as if they're bad things.
I think that's the way to make the most interesting comics.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Um, Fourth World.

And before Marvel? Kirby created or co-created Captain America, Boy Commandos, Newsboy Legion, The Fly, Manhunter, Challengers of the Unknown, etc etc etc

By comparison, Lee's output before and after Jack was fairly minimal.

Without Kirby, Stan co-created Spider-Man, Dr Strange and Daredevil. I'd say that outweighs Kirby's own creations.