Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 4

[roach]

roach is talking about Star Trek: Generations (1994), not Star Trek (2009).

yes this

 

[Raiden]

Actually, I hate the space pajamas, but I can get over it. What does really bug me is that the supposedly interspecies Federation is so so human-dominated. The ships all seem human designed (complete with very human names, and prefixes), and aliens are rarely, if at all seen.

In the first movie, you could count all the alien Starfleet members (even the nameless ones) on one hand. Even though Star Trek is full of aliens who look so human, that a TV budget could support a very diverse cast. In the new trailer, we see a shot of a bunch of Starfleet leaders, there isn't even one "plastic forehead" alien.

Compare it to say a modern series like Mass Effect, and it really stands out. The only alien regular is Spock, who is half-human.

Well, the movie is based on the Original Series, so naturally they'll have the all human crew (plus Spock), otherwise it won't be the Original Series, would it? And even in The Next Generation, they only have one alien (Wolf), and Data doesn't count since he's an Android not an alien species.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well, the movie is based on the Original Series, so naturally they'll have the all human crew (plus Spock), otherwise it won't be the Original Series, would it? And even in The Next Generation, they only have one alien (Wolf), and Data doesn't count since he's an Android not an alien species.

And this movie's excuse is? I don't even agree with the first part of your argument. Yeah, it's a reboot based on the original series, that doesn't mean the cast has to be identical (compare other reboots). But even if it did, this is the sequel, so aside from keeping a few essential characters (Kirk, Spock, etc), it can do whatever it wants.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Each Federation member Planet makes it own starships (and therefore they decide the names, which would be native to them) and the crews will be mostly from that same planet too.

I mean, Vulcan are part of the federation, yet they have their own ships, crewed by Vulcans, etc. Andorian's Tellerrite's, etc, the same deal.

Basically the 'Federation' isn't 'Starfleet' (they are separate things) with the latter referring to Earth's fleet of vessels.

I guess those Vulcan ships were off... doing stuff when their homeworld got attacked.

Actually, sarcasm aside, if Starfleet was the human military, that would make sense, except that isn't the case, at least not in the other series. Starfleet is the military of the Federation.

 

[wobbly]

Pretty much all wrong. Starfleet is the Federation's pseudo-military/exploration/diplomatic force. It seems you are being confused by the mess Berman and Braga made of Star Trek canon with Enterprise.

Nope, pretty much all correct: I said the Federation and Starfleet are not the same thing, and member planets do make their own starships and do have their own fleets, with each fleet able to assign alien crew if they want to.

Starfleet is under the Federation's wing, as are all the member planets, but it is still an Earth based organisation. This was noted before anything with Enterprise too: In earlier TOS episodes they stated the Enterprise was working under the 'United Earth Space Probe Agency' (UESPA) before settling on Starfleet later on. References to the UESPA have been made again later on too (was seen in the Generations movie on the plaque for the Enterprise B for example).

They seem to have extended the basic idea behind the UN's peace-keeping forces / missions to Federation.

UN's peace-keeping forces are kept under the UN flag but the participating member countries create their own teams, consisting of personnel / soldiers from their countries (and occasionally some members from the more friendly neighboring countries.)

The UN anology is the most apt: A UN sanctioned force can consist of hardware and personnel from a number of different countries. The Federation acts in the same way.

 

[DKDetective]

Nope, pretty much all correct: I said the Federation and Starfleet are not the same thing, and member planets do make their own starships and do have their own fleets, with each fleet able to assign alien crew if they want to.

Starfleet is under the Federation's wing, as are all the member planets, but it is still an Earth based organisation. This was noted before anything with Enterprise too: In earlier TOS episodes they stated the Enterprise was working under the 'United Earth Space Probe Agency' (UESPA) before settling on Starfleet later on. References to the UESPA have been made again later on too (was seen in the Generations movie on the plaque for the Enterprise B for example).

Dedication plaques cannot be taken as canon. Too many Easter egg references to production staff and the like. Furthermore, non-Earth/non-Human Starfleet vessels have been repeatedly seen. Eg. the Vulcan crewed USS Intrepid in The Immunity Syndrome (TOS), the USS Hera in Interface (TNG) and USS T'Kumbra in Take Me Out to the Holosuite (DS9). Furthermore, in Rapture (DS9), when Bajor's petition to join the Federation is accepted, there is discussion of absorbing the Bajorian Militia into Starfleet as though it is standard procedure upon admittance to the Federation. Last, the Starfleet emblem/seal typically includes the words "United Federation of Planets". All of these things suggest that continuity issues with early TOS episodes and Star Trek: Enterprise aside, Starfleet is supposed to be unified quasi-military force of the Federation.

EDIT: From The Star Trek Encyclopedia: "Starfleet. Deep-space exploratory, scientific, diplomatic, and defensive agency of the United Federation of Planets. Starfleet was chartered by the Federation in 2161..."

 

[Thundercrack85]

Vulcans operating a starship called the "USS Intrepid" is just funny. Should have a scene with two Vulcans discussing the logic of using the prefix USS for an alien warship. Even though the Vulcans had starships before the humans launched Sputnik.

Maybe it's like NATO, and Earth (America) pays for everything.

 

[DKDetective]

Vulcans operating a starship called the "USS Intrepid" is just funny. Should have a scene with two Vulcans discussing the logic of using the prefix USS for an alien warship. Even though the Vulcans had starships before the humans launched Sputnik.

Maybe it's like NATO, and Earth (America) pays for everything.

Well, to my knowledge, USS in the Trek universe stands for United (Federation of Planets) Star Ship. The USS designation was nothing to do with Earth as a Vulcan named ship like the USS T'Kumbra suggests. Also, that is why the NX-01 Enterprise, operated by the Earth Starfleet/UESPA does not bear the USS designation.

 

[wobbly]

EDIT: From The Star Trek Encyclopedia: "Starfleet. Deep-space exploratory, scientific, diplomatic, and defensive agency of the United Federation of Planets. Starfleet was chartered by the Federation in 2161..."

It's a bit amusing you use a fact revealed by Enterprise, something you also consider a cause for discrepancies, for your point.

Anyways, this link covers the history of Starfleet, including the discrepancies, and even offers an explanation as to why the Federation uses Earths forces as it's major contributor.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet

A couple of key quotes:

With the formation of the Federation in 2161, as per the Federation Charter, Starfleet and the deep-space exploratory and military services of the other member worlds were folded into the authority of the Federation.

Until as late as the 2290'shttp://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/2290s, some Starfleet operations continued to fall at least partly under the jurisdiction of UESPA. By the mid-24th Centuryhttp://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/24th_century, however, Starfleet operations were regulated solely by Starfleet Commandhttp://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet_Command, answering to the Federation Presidenthttp://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Federation_President and the Federation Council

and

UESPA was mentioned early in the Original Series, before producers finally settled upon "Starfleet" and the UFP as the Enterprise crew's operating authorities. It was found in background details in Star Trek: Enterprise and on the dedication plaque of the USS Enterprise-B in Star Trek Generations. UESPA was found on the United Earth Starfleet seal seen in "Demons", implying that the UE Starfleet was a division of UESPA or vice versa. It was never mentioned in Star Trek: The Next Generation. The nature of the relationship between UESPA and the Federation Starfleet was never established.

It is unclear why the fledgling Federation would utilize so many of Earth's space agencies as major contributors to its own Starfleet, especially considering both Vulcan's and Andoria's superior military and exploratory operations. One theory is paranoia. By placing the fledgling Starfleet in the hands of what was arguably the technologically and militarily weakest species, a balance remained amongst the remaining three powers, with none of the four having a significant advantage over the other three. Another explanation might be that, early on, planetary authorities operated inside of yet simultaneously independent of Starfleet, as is the case with the relationship between the European Space Agency and its national members. Whatever the reason, it is clear that – by the 23rd century – Earth had become the military backbone of the Federation. Even though less technologically advanced than other members, United Earth was nonetheless a major player in the Federation (for example, acting as its capital) and no doubt had much influence, for example the construction of Federation ships in the Sol system would have probably used UESPA and Starfleet facilities, at first, which gave it an advantage.

Anyways, the bottom line is what I said before is true: The Federation and Starfleet are not the same thing. They are different organisations with one working for the other (for example The US army works for the US Government, but they are not the same thing).

 

[wobbly]

I guess those Vulcan ships were off... doing stuff when their homeworld got attacked.

Since the Narada made very short work of Starfleet's ships I figure any defensive Armada Vulcan had in place would have got the same treatment.

 

[DKDetective]

It's a bit amusing you use a fact revealed by Enterprise, something you also consider a cause for discrepancies, for your point.

Anyways, this link covers the history of Starfleet, including the discrepancies, and even offers an explanation as to why the Federation uses Earths forces as it's major contributor.

They are different organisations with one working for the other (for example The US army works for the US Government, but they are not the same thing).

Actually, the quoted fact about the foundation of the Federation and Starfleet in 2161 is from my pre-Enterprise (1999) edition of the Encyclopedia, so I'm actually not relying on Enterprise for that fact. Also, I don't see any episode references for the sections you quoted, so it seems those passages are speculation/non-canon.

Also, I never disagreed with you regarding the UFP and Starfleet being different things. I actually agree regarding the US Government/US Army comparison. The canon TV series and films seem to indicate that Starfleet is the exploratory/military arm of the United Federation of Planets just like how the U.S. Armed Forces are the military of the United States of America. Starfleet is not the equivalent of some state militia that comprises only part of the military forces of the United States along side other militias from other states. It is a unified force that represents the entire Federation. Trek canon has never implied that Starfleet is an Earth-governed force that has equivalents from other member Planets like Vulcan. The reality is that Starfleet has seemed human-dominated because of budgetary considerations. That is why Vulcan, Andorian, etc dominated Starfleet vessels tend to be referenced in dialogue as opposed to shown.

 

[DKDetective]

Since the Narada made very short work of Starfleet's ships I figure any defensive Armada Vulcan had in place would have got the same treatment.

Funny how all the debris in orbit seemed to have been of Starfleet design. Those Vulcan ships must have vaporized perfectly.

 

[roach]

Well, the movie is based on the Original Series, so naturally they'll have the all human crew (plus Spock), otherwise it won't be the Original Series, would it? And even in The Next Generation, they only have one alien (Wolf), and Data doesn't count since he's an Android not an alien species.

Don't forget Deanna Troi

 

[DKDetective]

Don't forget Deanna Troi

Or Ro Laren. Also, there are a lot more non-human background crew members on TNG. Same with DS9 and Voyager.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Since the Narada made very short work of Starfleet's ships I figure any defensive Armada Vulcan had in place would have got the same treatment.

I just wish there would have been some wreckage, or a quick line. Anything really. It shouldn't be that easy to go up to one of the most advanced civilizations in the galaxy and blow up their homeworld.

 

[Snow Queen]

I just found out my theater has a preview screening on May 15 in IMAX. Totally going to try and nab some tickets for that in the morning.

 

[wobbly]

Funny how all the debris in orbit seemed to have been of Starfleet design. Those Vulcan ships must have vaporized perfectly.

I just wish there would have been some wreckage, or a quick line. Anything really. It shouldn't be that easy to go up to one of the most advanced civilizations in the galaxy and blow up their homeworld.

Starfleet's ships all warped into one location in orbit of Vulcan. The Narada could have taken out any Vulcan's armada elsewhere in the planet's vast orbit.

They could have done with mentioning something more about it though. All we got was a 'distress call' from Vulcan and nothing else. Doesn't mean they didn't put up a defence, but as it wasn't seen or mentioned it has to be assumed.

 

[redhawk23]

I like the "space pajamas" uniforms and am glad they're using them instead of how most of the Star Trek movies have used completely different designs. Star Trek Generations was the only movie that used mostly the same ones as from the show, but even then they started switching to the DS9 jumpsuits just to be different.

They started using the DS9 jumpsuits because that's what Starfleet uniforms transitioned to at that point in the timeline. They were actually pretty good with a lot of that shared universe stuff in the 90s.

In the early parts of DS9 when they would show someone from the Enterprise or some other ships they were still wearing the TNG uniforms, slightly different from the DS9 uniforms.

Voyager retained the uniforms from its first season but then when they started making contact with Starfleet, the people on their view screens had the predominantly grey uniforms found in the later seasons of DS9 and the last TNG films.

 

[redhawk23]

Glowing flying drones make a Star Trek logo over London.
http://www.theverge.com/2013/3/25/4143968/drones-form-giant-glowing-star-trek-logo-over-london



This is pretty nuts.

 

[terry78]

Jesus Christ, you people are starting to outnerd the rest of us.

 

[MrMaooz]

Why do you think Spock is jumping off that building in the trailer?

 

[redhawk23]

Why do you think Spock is jumping off that building in the trailer?

Judging from some other shots I think to catch some kind of flying vehicle.

 

[Sawyer]

Jesus Christ, you people are starting to outnerd the rest of us.

Don't act so surprised, Terry, this is a Trek thread.

FFS, Malcolm McDowell got death threats when his character killed Shatner.

 

[terry78]

^Well, that was clearly warranted.

 

[georgec]

Why do you think Spock is jumping off that building in the trailer?

He heard JJ is directing Star Wars. :P