Storm Vs Thor

[moraldeficiency]

BY your logic,.. I can say that the old-Strong could come to Earth and beat Thor with her bare hands because she was able to survive the Hulk on her own Planet.

Thor on Earth with very different physical laws than what was existing on WWhulk world commands power we have documented history on. This is not the same as the powers the Old Strong had Access to. Since the Old Strong Hasn't and will never come to Earth, we don't know if she could do the same or better or worse. We don't know.

The point of the above is that you really can't cop out by saying that we don't know when we have three decades of comic history on both characters and what they have done.

You can't find an entry where Thor has pulled and used stellar energy to augment his own. You will find example after example of him using the hammer to shunt or move different types of energy in a controlled manner.

"hasn't happened" is a poor excuse -

This is too easy,.... List an example where he has EVER DONE what she did in the galactic core. If you can't find it in 40 years of Thor history - "Hasn't Happened" becomes "Can't happen."

V.

You missed why that argument applies. Storm was in a "magical" place where the very rules of physics don't apply. That place gave her power far greater than what she could normally manipulate. If a specific place gave her that power than the only way for a valid comparison is for thor to go to that same place. You said the only way for storm to win was there, well if they both went there we don't know what would happen, because thor hasn't been there. It's not a cop out, we don't know because thor has never been there.

If someone needs to be in a paticular location then the way both beings interact with the envirnment would need to be established.

BTW, can't happen can only be established if a being is shown trying and failing. You're saying thor couldn't manipulate the energies. Show me him trying and failing and I'll concede the point. Since it's never happened the only logical answer is: I don't know.

 

[BrianWilly]

To play Devil's Advocate for a moment, the worst kind of advocate there could be...you can't counter a negative with a negative and call it an actual point. If we don't what Thor could do in that location and we're never shown anything indicating that he could draw power from that location, it's flawed thinking to just assume he should be able to do it. Varient doesn't have to show anything to be correct because he's not trying to prove anything. The burden of proof is on the guy originating the theory, not on the guy disputing it.

 

[moraldeficiency]

To play Devil's Advocate for a moment, the worst kind of advocate there could be...you can't counter a negative with a negative and call it an actual point. If we don't what Thor could do in that location and we're never shown anything indicating that he could draw power from that location, it's flawed thinking to say that we'll just assume he should be able to do it. Varient doesn't have to show anything because he's not trying to prove anything. The burden of proof is on the guy originating the theory, not on the guy disputing it.

Agreed, but it wasn't said thor could definately do that. All that was said was it wasn't known, which it's not. And to say thor cannot do it, is the exact same flawed thinking.

 

[Miss Webb]

Everyone here is a Skrull. I'm convinced of it. t:

But having seen both sides of this argument, I must rethink the logic (or lack thereof).

And so...

Storm trumps Thor. Why? I dunno, because I say so.

 

[BrianWilly]

Agreed, but it wasn't said thor could definately do that. All that was said was it wasn't known, which it's not. And to say thor cannot do it, is the exact same flawed thinking.

It's really not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Thor hasn't had trouble absorbing any other kinds of energy before. Throw that into the argument and you would have a better basis for assuming Thor could absorb that kind of energy, too.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Mjollnir has been shown to absorb every type of energy there is up to the point where a godblast shot through it had galactus runnning. It would be highly improbable for him not to be able to absorb the energy.

 

[BrianWilly]

There is a marginal difference between absorbing and redirecting energy versus absorbing energy to make yourself stronger. If the actual question is whether Thor can do exactly what Storm did with that celestial energy, then I'd have to agree with Varient that he can't. Assuming that Thor can't do something because he's never done it makes more sense than assuming that Thor can do something when he's never done it. Both ways of thinking are flawed, but for the purposes of a discussion the former is preferable.

 

[moraldeficiency]

It's really not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

You're missing the point. I'm not saying it just hasn't been proven false, I'm saying it's never happened. I'm saying we don't know what effects the place would have on a god. I'm not saying thor would clearly win there, I'm saying since this was a place where the very laws of nature do not apply then a degree of uncertianity would apply. This isn't just some other place, this place had the power of countless stars condensed into it. Basically it's magic. So in this one very specific place that thor has never been to I'm saying that it is entirely possible for thor to manipulate the energy as well as a human.

This is a far cry from a random "potential" argument. The location itself changed and effected storm. It would change and effect anyone. Why is it flawed logic to say this place wouldn't effect thor. Hell it might kill him instantly for all I know, but the one thing I'm certian of is the place has a specific effect on any being inside.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh, I never assumed Thor could do exactly what Storm did. I'm saying whatever type of energy Storm gathered up and threw at Thor would be just as ineffective as throwing weather effects at him because Mjolnir can absorb, transmute, and redirect all kinds of energy.

 

[Varient]

SMH.

Safe Bet: You can't fly under your own power in your "street clothes"

It's Can't because your life would end if you hopped off a cliff and flapped your arms.

Just because you are not twisted in the head and don't know your own powers and abilities (if you were twisted in the head) doesn't mean we have to have you jump off a cliff in montana,.. or new mexico to make sure you can't fly.

Same applies here.

Thor has gone from Galaxy to Galaxy,... he has been all up in the center of the Kree and Skrull Empires surrounded by energy he doesn't / didn't use when the Avengers definetly could have used it.

Storm has felt and used stellar radiation EVERYTIME she has gone into space.

It's like you guys want to say she is "thor-lite" when she has her own unique power set / abilities.

Look at the gamut of the Marvel Universe - Same or similar powers, different sources,... Different ways of doing the same things.

Just because powers run in the same direction doesn't mean that the same limitations would / could apply.

I fully expect things based on feats done and power levels exhibited. This is why I have issue with the way the hulk has been whooping on people who have beat him without their using their full strength in the past.

There are beings I expect to beat other beings in all but special cases,.. period.

V.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That's not much of an argument to definitively say Thor couldn't do anything with the energy. There are plenty of times Thor's fought the Hulk where his belt of strength or a god blast would've come in handy, but he's never used either. By your logic, that means he's physically incapable of using his belt of strength or a god blast against the Hulk.

 

[Varient]

That's not much of an argument to definitively say Thor couldn't do anything with the energy. There are plenty of times Thor's fought the Hulk where his belt of strength or a god blast would've come in handy, but he's never used either. By your logic, that means he's physically incapable of using his belt of strength or a god blast against the Hulk.

Not saying that.

Using your example,... In that case WE KNOW that he has the "Mo'Power Belt" and access to the God Blast BECAUSE HE HAS USED IT IN THE PAST. Why would we say he's incapable IF HE'S USED IT BEFORE? if he doesn't use either it's because of personal choice or lack of prep time - not "he is incapable".


40 years of marvel history - Thor doesn't fly by farting - I think it's a safe bet that he can't.

40 years of Marvel History,.. Thor has NOT used stellar energy, esp in cases against stellar beings using said same.

If he could redirect the amounts of energy we are talking on,.. the God Blast would NEVER be needed.

 

[Varient]

You missed why that argument applies. Storm was in a "magical" place where the very rules of physics don't apply. That place gave her power far greater than what she could normally manipulate. If a specific place gave her that power than the only way for a valid comparison is for thor to go to that same place. You said the only way for storm to win was there, well if they both went there we don't know what would happen, because thor hasn't been there. It's not a cop out, we don't know because thor has never been there.

Pardon,.. but where do u get the impression that the rules of physics don't apply at the galactic core?

 

[moraldeficiency]

Pardon,.. but where do u get the impression that the rules of physics don't apply at the galactic core?

I guess by the statement that millions of suns are crammed into relatively small space. This is impossible to do without bending physics not to mention that the gravatational pull would instantly kill anything in its vicinity unless this place had some "special" rules.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Not saying that.

Using your example,... In that case WE KNOW that he has the "Mo'Power Belt" and access to the God Blast BECAUSE HE HAS USED IT IN THE PAST. Why would we say he's incapable IF HE'S USED IT BEFORE? if he doesn't use either it's because of personal choice or lack of prep time - not "he is incapable".


40 years of marvel history - Thor doesn't fly by farting - I think it's a safe bet that he can't.

40 years of Marvel History,.. Thor has NOT used stellar energy, esp in cases against stellar beings using said same.

If he could redirect the amounts of energy we are talking on,.. the God Blast would NEVER be needed.

Those two examples aren't quite the same. There's nothing to even remotely suggest that the first would be possible. There is however, the fact that Mjolnir has never had trouble absorbing or redirecting any other form of energy (to my knowledge) to suggest that the latter could be possible. I'd have to go with moraldeficiency on this. You're flat-out assuming Thor can't use stellar energy, period. I'd say he hasn't, but it's likely he could. Neither of us is wrong since we don't know either way; we're just extrapolating different things from the facts.

Keep in mind that I'm not saying Thor could augment his own powers with stellar energy. I'm saying the fact that Mjolnir hasn't had trouble absorbing any other kinds of energy just suggests that it's plausible Thor could defend against Storm's attacks and redirect the energy back at her or away or transmute it into other forms of energy or whatever, leaving Storm back at square one.

Also, I don't get the god blast comment. Thor's only used the god blast in situations where alternate sources of energy weren't immediately available. If there's nothing else to get energy from, Thor can always get it from himself in the form of a god blast.

 

[Varient]

Those two examples aren't quite the same. There's nothing to even remotely suggest that the first would be possible. There is however, the fact that Mjolnir has never had trouble absorbing or redirecting any other form of energy (to my knowledge) to suggest that the latter could be possible. I'd have to go with moraldeficiency on this. You're flat-out assuming Thor can't use stellar energy, period. I'd say he hasn't, but it's likely he could. Neither of us is wrong since we don't know either way; we're just extrapolating different things from the facts.

Keep in mind that I'm not saying Thor could augment his own powers with stellar energy. I'm saying the fact that Mjolnir hasn't had trouble absorbing any other kinds of energy just suggests that it's plausible Thor could defend against Storm's attacks and redirect the energy back at her or away or transmute it into other forms of energy or whatever, leaving Storm back at square one.

Also, I don't get the god blast comment. Thor's only used the god blast in situations where alternate sources of energy weren't immediately available. If there's nothing else to get energy from, Thor can always get it from himself in the form of a god blast.

??
I made the statement based on what I've read on both characters that Storm could beat Thor at the Galactic Core.

This is because (I amplified) that at the Core, Storm had access to more power than Thor has EVER been reported to use, move or redirect.

It is canon that THOR can be beaten by energy users and brawlers who have more power available to them than he has.

.
Sidebar - on - topic: Even though it has not happened, the Majority of people I've talked to say that the Silver Surfer can beat Thor regularly in almost any dustup where they are just "fighting".

This is usually only disputed by hardcore Thor fans.

Keeping this in mind,... if it can be believed and accepted that Thor can be beaten by as heavy an energy user as the Surfer,.... how is it suddenly that he can withstand and redirect the powers of STARS, (I believe it actually has been said that the Surfer has the choice but rarely amps the power cosmic past the output of A STAR), because it's Storm and not the Surfer?

True Bias here.

On Topic:

Godblast - IF he were as much an Energy Manipulator as you guys need to say,... Anyone who has a high energy output that have beat Thor but for the GodBlast would have been literally no trouble.

The Thunder God should just redirect all that Energy Galactus has access to to some other dimension,.. or cut the Surfer off from the power cosmic,.. Or simply shield Earth from the Celestials attempts to blast it into nothingness.

Since in his ENTIRE history he has not done this sort of thing,... Suddenly when facing a combative woman at the Galactic Core, he's gonna suddenly figure out that this will be the best way to win?

V.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

??
I made the statement based on what I've read on both characters that Storm could beat Thor at the Galactic Core.

This is because (I amplified) that at the Core, Storm had access to more power than Thor has EVER been reported to use, move or redirect.

It is canon that THOR can be beaten by energy users and brawlers who have more power available to them than he has.

.
Sidebar - on - topic: Even though it has not happened, the Majority of people I've talked to say that the Silver Surfer can beat Thor regularly in almost any dustup where they are just "fighting".

This is usually only disputed by hardcore Thor fans.

Keeping this in mind,... if it can be believed and accepted that Thor can be beaten by as heavy an energy user as the Surfer,.... how is it suddenly that he can withstand and redirect the powers of STARS, (I believe it actually has been said that the Surfer has the choice but rarely amps the power cosmic past the output of A STAR), because it's Storm and not the Surfer?

True Bias here.

More ignorance than bias, really. The Surfer and Thor are equal on paper in almost every way. The only real advantages the Surfer has over Thor are his ability to augment his strength using energy and his greater degree of matter manipulation. Thor is roughly as fast, as good with energy, and as good or better at just about everything else as the Surfer. On paper. I suspect the only reason you've gotten the impression that "only hardcore Thor fans" would dispute that the Surfer could easily take Thor is because "only hardcore Thor fans" know the full extent of Thor's powers. He's kind of a pathetic character in that he's almost always portrayed well below what his powers would indicate he's capable of. Why do you think so many of Thor's major fights are such a bone of contention for his fans? We're not just being argumentative for the fun of it; a lot of his fights just don't make sense when you know what he's capable of.

I'm not disputing that Storm could beat Thor. Any character can beat any other character. I'm just disputing the fact that you're basically saying Thor doesn't have this power when the truth is that although he hasn't used it, there's ample evidence to suggest he could. We don't know either way, but because this is one possible area where Storm could maybe beat Thor, you're treating it as a foregone conclusion that she would beat him.

On Topic:

Godblast - IF he were as much an Energy Manipulator as you guys need to say,... Anyone who has a high energy output that have beat Thor but for the GodBlast would have been literally no trouble.

The Thunder God should just redirect all that Energy Galactus has access to to some other dimension,.. or cut the Surfer off from the power cosmic,.. Or simply shield Earth from the Celestials attempts to blast it into nothingness.

Since in his ENTIRE history he has not done this sort of thing,... Suddenly when facing a combative woman at the Galactic Core, he's gonna suddenly figure out that this will be the best way to win?

V.

The Silver Surfer and Galactus generate their own energy. They're pretty much made of cosmic energy, surrounded by physical shells. I never claimed it was in Thor's power to just arbitrarily shut down those sorts of beings, and I don't know where you're pulling this stuff out of. Storm would be redirecting energy from the stellar core through herself. That's an external energy source. Thor's cut the Juggernaut off from his source of power by using Mjolnir to absorb the magic energy that connects him to Cyttorak--again, external energy source. So you're actually wrong, since in his ENTIRE history he has done the sort of thing that I'm suggesting he could do against Storm.

 

[Varient]

I guess by the statement that millions of suns are crammed into relatively small space. This is impossible to do without bending physics not to mention that the gravatational pull would instantly kill anything in its vicinity unless this place had some "special" rules.

no.
"relatively small space" is not "impossible" otherwise there would be no galaxies in the first place.

Scientists now say that almost every galaxy with a core is eating itself slowly

Slowly because of the spin imparted by the massive Black hole hypothosized at the center of each.

And relatively small space translates (to me ) to Stars that are light weeks to light months to light years apart,.... Plenty of room to play nice.

V.

 

[moraldeficiency]

no.
"relatively small space" is not "impossible" otherwise there would be no galaxies in the first place.

Scientists now say that almost every galaxy with a core is eating itself slowly

Slowly because of the spin imparted by the massive Black hole hypothosized at the center of each.

And relatively small space translates (to me ) to Stars that are light weeks to light months to light years apart,.... Plenty of room to play nice.

V.

Huh? The only form of a compacted star is a black hole. So if you can condense millions of stars without the black hole effect, then physics are right out the window.

Maybe that's what it translates to you but based on the comic, storm's scale size indicates this place is in fact small.

 

[Varient]

Second first:

The Silver Surfer and Galactus generate their own energy. They're pretty much made of cosmic energy, surrounded by physical shells. I never claimed it was in Thor's power to just arbitrarily shut down those sorts of beings, and I don't know where you're pulling this stuff out of. Storm would be redirecting energy from the stellar core through herself. That's an external energy source. Thor's cut the Juggernaut off from his source of power by using Mjolnir to absorb the magic energy that connects him to Cyttorak--again, external energy source. So you're actually wrong, since in his ENTIRE history he has done the sort of thing that I'm suggesting he could do against Storm.

Sorry. The Surfer Doesn't "Generate his own Energy" - He is a reservoir of the Power Cosmic. Since his powersource permiates the universe he always "normally" has access to it. That Qualifies as an "External Power Source" This is Why he can pull from it for energy, matter manip,.. and physical augmentation.

If Thor can "Redirect" Energy like you say he would with Storm he could "redirect" both the energy blasts from the surfer and block access to the power cosmic for the surfer, forcing him to fight only with his onboard power levels.

In ref to Galactus,... too many retcons for me to argue whether he is his own or not,.. but the last time it was touched on he was being used as a battery that was being quickly depleted from the last world he'd consumed so i'd say he has nothing to block except in blasts he would throw at Thor.


I'm not going to go back and forth on whether he could do the same with Storm as he did with Juggernaut since he has NEVER done the same to someone using the same type of energy as Storm would be using.

Wrong?

Okay,... in an exact definition I didn't include "magical energy" in my statements, I was pretty clear in my definitions of Energy users.
But I accept what you mean,.... Juggernaut is an externally powered Brawler,.. and Thor is able to use the hammer to block him from his power source,.... yet he doesn't do it between Galactus and a planet,... or the surfer and the power cosmic,................

But in your view "he could".


First Second:
Not going to argue the full range of Thors Powers and abilities because I only know what I have read,.. hence my constant disclaimers that he is regularly done a great disservice as far as feats - which is how I judge the powers and abilities of All Superheroes.
(Heck,.. As many times as he's been tagged by mere mortals,.. I didn't know he had something remotely like superspeed until someone posted that story when he teamed up with the torch.)


I suppose if they could be bothered to let him run at full power for a bit,.. these convo's wouldn't come up as often as they do.

I politely ask for an example of Thor shunting the amount of power we are talking about here.

I'm also going to assume that "Poor Writing" is the reason why we have no concrete proof of manipulation of stellar energy by Thor.

 

[Varient]

Huh? The only form of a compacted star is a black hole. So if you can condense millions of stars without the black hole effect, then physics are right out the window.

Maybe that's what it translates to you but based on the comic, storm's scale size indicates this place is in fact small.

?
Okay.
Relative as in relation to the normal course of events.

In the case of Stars,.. they are usually Light years apart EXCEPT at the Galactic Core.

No laws are broken here.


I think your picture of what was described and what my picture of what was described is different. If Clairmont and company were going to toss Physics out the window on this one,.. they would have used the word "Magic",.... just like they did With Peters lil Sister and Nighcrawlers EX.

They didn't - so your definition doesn't hold with their intent.

Peace.

 

[moraldeficiency]

?
Okay.
Relative as in relation to the normal course of events.

In the case of Stars,.. they are usually Light years apart EXCEPT at the Galactic Core.

No laws are broken here.


I think your picture of what was described and what my picture of what was described is different. If Clairmont and company were going to toss Physics out the window on this one,.. they would have used the word "Magic",.... just like they did With Peters lil Sister and Nighcrawlers EX.

They didn't - so your definition doesn't hold with their intent.

Peace.

Stars cannot exist in close proximity without a chaotic event of energy and matter.

Magic is a pretty vague term. Basically if you see something that alters physical laws it's magic. What happend to her was "magical" by that defination. Can you really not see a human entering this place and not dying instantly contradicts so many physical laws I can't even begin naming them?

Hence, magic.

You cannot know a writer's intent, and you're assuming a great deal.

How do you keep escaping your scorpion box?

 

[Varient]

Stars cannot exist in close proximity without a chaotic event of energy and matter.

Magic is a pretty vague term. Basically if you see something that alters physical laws it's magic. What happend to her was "magical" by that defination. Can you really not see a human entering this place and not dying instantly contradicts so many physical laws I can't even begin naming them?

Hence, magic.

You cannot know a writer's intent, and you're assuming a great deal.

How do you keep escaping your scorpion box?

Please don't go there.
1. You show me where stars can't exist within light weeks of each other like as hubble pics show NOW AT THE GALACTIC CORE.

2. Magic was coined BY YOU AS THE EXPLANATION of what happened to Storm. She had a history prior to this of feeling and manipulation stellar phenom - as part of her mutant abilities,....

3. exactly how is it going to kill her to be IN A STARSHIP surrounded by stars?
You obviously missed the fact that she arrived there in a shiar starship, something that is by canon sturdy enough to cross the gulf between our Galaxy and the Shiar Galaxy at HYPERLIGHT Speeds. If you take a physics course,.. the level of "durablity" for anything that travels at those speeds would EASILY be able to handle being in the Nebula and Stars you would find in the Galactic Core.

Where do you get your science?

 

[Varient]

To play Devil's Advocate for a moment, the worst kind of advocate there could be...you can't counter a negative with a negative and call it an actual point. If we don't what Thor could do in that location and we're never shown anything indicating that he could draw power from that location, it's flawed thinking to just assume he should be able to do it. Varient doesn't have to show anything to be correct because he's not trying to prove anything. The burden of proof is on the guy originating the theory, not on the guy disputing it.

Thank You.