The Dark Knight Tdk/sm3

[Spider-Fan]

Yep. Now he squares off literally yawning at Venom. And I agree Doc Ock is above GG2 and Hobby above Kingpin. Typos. I guess.

Saying Venom is your favorite Spidey villain is like saying "Killer Croc is teh best!!!" over The Joker, Two-Face, Ra's Al Ghul, Catwoman, Bane, Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, Scarecrow, etc. It's silly.

100% agree. I'll never understand the hype he's got.

 

[Dr. Crane]

i feel a reboot coming... Raimi is going back to his horror roots.. he's got his next year and a half figured..

spiderman made money.. sure.. but i here a lot of friends ( the spiderman fans) talk about how the SM films messed up with the villians... i'm not a big spiderman fan... and i didn't care for the films that much... a little corny.. remind me of shumaker's batman films.... and the only thing i liked about spiderman before the movies was green goblin. and in my oppinion.. they scewed the pooch on that... they had the right actor.. but that mask... crap.

follow the trend.. Like IM and DK.. get the villians right... get serious... and get a good story... redo the green goblin... and do it like a make up..

they want a new venom?... make it a video game and call it done...

 

[Spider-Fan]

The SM movies did fine jobs with GG, Ock, and Harry IMO. Now, Sandman and Venom is where the debate begins.

 

[The_Raganork]

i feel a reboot coming... Raimi is going back to his horror roots.. he's got his next year and a half figured..

spiderman made money.. sure.. but i here a lot of friends ( the spiderman fans) talk about how the SM films messed up with the villians... i'm not a big spiderman fan... and i didn't care for the films that much... a little corny.. remind me of shumaker's batman films.... and the only thing i liked about spiderman before the movies was green goblin. and in my oppinion.. they scewed the pooch on that... they had the right actor.. but that mask... crap.

follow the trend.. Like IM and DK.. get the villians right... get serious... and get a good story... redo the green goblin... and do it like a make up..

they want a new venom?... make it a video game and call it done...

Iron Man had a villain?

 

[Ace of Knaves]

yea i aint really a big spidey fan, i just always liked venom because i like the artwork they use for him. but i do think that the intense hatred he has for peter and the fact he knows both sides to him makes him a dangerous adversary. what do you guys think of carnage then?

 

[Dr. Crane]

^ ya... you remember.. the bald one. and the terrorists that were working for mandarin... look.. im not a big IM fan either... or i'd be on that thread.. but i thought Jeff Bridges did a good job... come on... He's the Dude..

 

[Ace of Knaves]

i didnt know the terrorists were working for mandarin? i thought there were just generic islamic extremists?

 

[Dr. Crane]

and "spider-fan"... i didn't mind Dr. Oc that much.. but honestly... you wouldn't rather see the green goblin in a make-up ?.. most of my friends that like SM all said that they blew it... like tommy lee jones two-face..

 

[Project862006]

i really hate sm3 hate it gets on my nerves people act like its the worst movie ever let alone worst superhero movies ever the movie is not great at all but i still feel it was a good solid film.Spider man 1 was really good and 2 was even better spider man 3 was over hyped jus like TDK .It's just sm3 didn't deliver and left people disappointed b/c anything less than masterpiece when going into sm3 was a disaster to most people.Tthen i hear people saying **** raimi **** tobey etc. its like they forgot how good sm and sm2 were its ridiculous

 

[Spider-Fan]

and "spider-fan"... i didn't mind Dr. Oc that much.. but honestly... you wouldn't rather see the green goblin in a make-up ?.. most of my friends that like SM all said that they blew it... like tommy lee jones two-face..

I don't care. Sure, the costume sucks, but the character was spot on (minus one small annoyance in the story). In the end, that is what I care about more.

 

[Dr. Crane]

i didn't forget how good they were... they just didn't appeal to me. look.. i really liked the dark knight.. over-hyped a bit... sure.. but it's a great film... i like that the joker is finally scary.. that people die.... back in '89.. i was one of the few that wasn't crazy about tim burton's batman.. i mean kiling joke, the dark knight returns, that is what we were told we were getting...
oops.. jack's joker was ok... but he wasn't scary... talk about over-hyped... jeeez...

i just think the SM franchise treats their villians a little light.. like the batman movies before "begins".. i liked Dr.Oc.. but it was more visual than character wise... i'd love to see a badass green goblin.. with those big white eyes... and be able to see his face.. that's all...

 

[Mito88]

i really hate sm3 hate it gets on my nerves people act like its the worst movie ever let alone worst superhero movies ever the movie is not great at all but i still feel it was a good solid film.Spider man 1 was really good and 2 was even better spider man 3 was over hyped jus like TDK .It's just sm3 didn't deliver and left people disappointed b/c anything less than masterpiece when going into sm3 was a disaster to most people.Tthen i hear people saying **** raimi **** tobey etc. its like they forgot how good sm and sm2 were its ridiculous

TDK is over hyped even though it "delivered"?

 

[DACrowe]

yea i aint really a big spidey fan, i just always liked venom because i like the artwork they use for him. but i do think that the intense hatred he has for peter and the fact he knows both sides to him makes him a dangerous adversary. what do you guys think of carnage then?

If you want a villain who knows both sides of Spidey (his secret identity, I assume is what you mean) again look no further than GG. Norman Osborn has done so much to **** with him as has Harry Osborn that most people should crumble and go "Punisher" on their asses (especially Norman's) but Peter is one resilent and soulful cat. Probably why he is my favorite superhero. Maybe why he is my favorite superhero. He may have superpowers but he is more human than the rest of 'em.

It strikes me your knowledge of Venom seems to come mostly from the movie, which did take that "reverse Spidey" approach with Eddie Brock being the opposite of Peter. In the comics he is a buff journalist with a bad self-esteem complex who gets a source that tells him he is a famous serial killer. He uses this guy to write stories and refuses to help police catch him and then finally reveals his identity in a "Pulitzer-worthy article" and then Spidey catches the real serial killer who turns out to be somebody else completely. Instead of blaming himself for losing his job and not doing his research to learn his source was a pathological liar, or blaming his lying source, or his boss, or the real serial killer...he blames Spider-Man for doing his job and taking down a serial killer.

So Brock decides to kill himself and just happens to go to the same church as Spider-Man to pray for forgiveness for his future sin when the symbiote jumps him. They then decide to kill Spider-Man, who Eddie never met face-to-face once in his life before that moment. Real great motive/character, huh?

As for Carnage, if there is anyone more shallow in Spidey's rogue gallery than Venom, it's the C-man. Visually without the symbiote he is obviously a red-headed Joker, but he doesn't have the depth, complexity or originality of that character. He is some stupid serial killer who gets the symbiote and then goes around walking down the street killing the first person(s) he sees and does this until he gets caught, escapes again and does the same thing. He has no rhyme or reason and is just a glorified super-powered mass murderer. All he does is cut up strangers randomly until someone puts their boot up his ass. He is simply put a character created to sell comics and nothing more. They realized they could milk Venom in his own title as an anti-hero so now they need an anti-Venom to be the anti-anti-Spider-Man so they created Carnage. He is the definitive '90s comics character. All style and no substance.

 

[DACrowe]

i didn't forget how good they were... they just didn't appeal to me. look.. i really liked the dark knight.. over-hyped a bit... sure.. but it's a great film... i like that the joker is finally scary.. that people die.... back in '89.. i was one of the few that wasn't crazy about tim burton's batman.. i mean kiling joke, the dark knight returns, that is what we were told we were getting...
oops.. jack's joker was ok... but he wasn't scary... talk about over-hyped... jeeez...

i just think the SM franchise treats their villians a little light.. like the batman movies before "begins".. i liked Dr.Oc.. but it was more visual than character wise... i'd love to see a badass green goblin.. with those big white eyes... and be able to see his face.. that's all...

The SM movies (at least the first two) are pretty damn good depictions of the early Spidey comics. Yeah they are a little too kid-friendly at times and I think they could be made with more mature and natural dialogue, but they are still extremely well made. I'd in fact argue that Spider-Man 2 is better than Batman Begins and any other superhero movie that doesn't have "Dark Knight" in its title.

Spidey has always been about the duality of a normal geeky kid struggling with the responsibility of being a superhero and living a normal life. It is a parable about growing up and the comics have gone so far as to follow him through good and bad relationships, college, grad school, real jobs and a strong marriage (until Marvel jumped the shark and retconned the last 20 years of comics at the beginning of this year, but that is a different discussion).

I think the movies got that. Yeah, I wish the dialogue wasn't so melodramatic, but I wouldn't accuse Stan Lee, whose early work is the obvious inspiration, ever wrote Pulitzer-worthy prose. I will say Spidey should be lighter than Batman and should always appeal to all ages. Even if t hey did something as intense as Kraven's Last Hunt (if you like Batman graphic novels, pick that up, as it is one of Spidey's most violent and grittiest novels) it should still be PG-13 and no darker than BB.

As for the villains, eh. The only one I think they changed profusely was Venom and as I don't like the comic iteration I didn't mind. I think fairer attacks would be on that Spidey in battle should be a jester and is a bit of a comedian or smartass and other than the occasional quip in the movies he is more of a hero with a lot of bravado, but is mostly silent. But as those are always visually visceral experiences, I never got too upset. The biggest negative change is turning MJ into a sad girl with a lot of emotional baggage she cannot control. MJ does carry a lot of problems and is a product of a bad childhood, but she doesn't wear it on her sleeves in the comics and whine about it a lot, but rather hides it under an outgoing/wild party girl exterior and grows up consolidating the two personalities in the comics. That is fair criticism against all three movies.

As for GG. They nailed his character. It would have been perfect if Gwen Stacy was there and he killed her at the bridge, but Dafoe became the character. Molina was brilliant as Doc Ock and better than any of the Nolan villains sans Ledger's JOker which is on a different plateau than any comic villain to date and Franco's "New Goblin" (Green Goblin II) really nailed the character and didn't have a cheesy mask to get in the way. Sandman was always a shallow B-lister in the comics so giving him a backstory in the movie was not a big deal (killing Uncle Ben was, but that is a different discussion). And then there's Venom...

Also as for GG's face. I don't know if there is a good way to do that. He wears a mask in the comics, but that may look as cheesy as a rubber mask as it does as a piece of armor. Make-up also presents the problem of "So Norman puts on mascara every time he goes out to fight?" That was a lose-lose situation. But Dafoe and Raimi nailed the character (at least in the first decade he was written and not his '90s return).

 

[FCEEVIPER]

Avi Arad: "Batman came and went."

*Three Years Later*

The Dark Knight bests Spider-Man 3's Opening Day and Opening Weekend Box Office Records.

Greatest Sig on the Hype, period!

 

[DACrowe]

bump.

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

spider-man 3 was awesome,but still not better than tdk.had many plotholes/no character devolpment but thats what the missing half-hour of deleted scenes are.END OF DISCUSSION

 

[Delete]

The SM movies (at least the first two) are pretty damn good depictions of the early Spidey comics. Yeah they are a little too kid-friendly at times and I think they could be made with more mature and natural dialogue, but they are still extremely well made. I'd in fact argue that Spider-Man 2 is better than Batman Begins and any other superhero movie that doesn't have "Dark Knight" in its title.

Spidey has always been about the duality of a normal geeky kid struggling with the responsibility of being a superhero and living a normal life. It is a parable about growing up and the comics have gone so far as to follow him through good and bad relationships, college, grad school, real jobs and a strong marriage (until Marvel jumped the shark and retconned the last 20 years of comics at the beginning of this year, but that is a different discussion).

I think the movies got that. Yeah, I wish the dialogue wasn't so melodramatic, but I wouldn't accuse Stan Lee, whose early work is the obvious inspiration, ever wrote Pulitzer-worthy prose. I will say Spidey should be lighter than Batman and should always appeal to all ages. Even if t hey did something as intense as Kraven's Last Hunt (if you like Batman graphic novels, pick that up, as it is one of Spidey's most violent and grittiest novels) it should still be PG-13 and no darker than BB.

As for the villains, eh. The only one I think they changed profusely was Venom and as I don't like the comic iteration I didn't mind. I think fairer attacks would be on that Spidey in battle should be a jester and is a bit of a comedian or smartass and other than the occasional quip in the movies he is more of a hero with a lot of bravado, but is mostly silent. But as those are always visually visceral experiences, I never got too upset. The biggest negative change is turning MJ into a sad girl with a lot of emotional baggage she cannot control. MJ does carry a lot of problems and is a product of a bad childhood, but she doesn't wear it on her sleeves in the comics and whine about it a lot, but rather hides it under an outgoing/wild party girl exterior and grows up consolidating the two personalities in the comics. That is fair criticism against all three movies.

As for GG. They nailed his character. It would have been perfect if Gwen Stacy was there and he killed her at the bridge, but Dafoe became the character. Molina was brilliant as Doc Ock and better than any of the Nolan villains sans Ledger's JOker which is on a different plateau than any comic villain to date and Franco's "New Goblin" (Green Goblin II) really nailed the character and didn't have a cheesy mask to get in the way. Sandman was always a shallow B-lister in the comics so giving him a backstory in the movie was not a big deal (killing Uncle Ben was, but that is a different discussion). And then there's Venom...

Also as for GG's face. I don't know if there is a good way to do that. He wears a mask in the comics, but that may look as cheesy as a rubber mask as it does as a piece of armor. Make-up also presents the problem of "So Norman puts on mascara every time he goes out to fight?" That was a lose-lose situation. But Dafoe and Raimi nailed the character (at least in the first decade he was written and not his '90s return).

Did they have to make Peter Parker and Mary Jane so damn whiny that I always wanted the villians to kill them? Or make the villians so sympathetic that you find yourself on their side as opposed to Spiderman? God I hate all three of those movies. I want a wise cracking Spiderman who fights villians, not a whiny little punk who basically beats up guys who have just suffered some tragedy or are down on their luck or something.

 

[the_tortel]

i didnt know the terrorists were working for mandarin? i thought there were just generic islamic extremists?

aren't we all?

 

[CaptainClown]

Did they have to make Peter Parker and Mary Jane so damn whiny that I always wanted the villians to kill them? Or make the villians so sympathetic that you find yourself on their side as opposed to Spiderman? God I hate all three of those movies. I want a wise cracking Spiderman who fights villians, not a whiny little punk who basically beats up guys who have just suffered some tragedy or are down on their luck or something.

Same

 

[Va3H]

Did they have to make Peter Parker and Mary Jane so damn whiny that I always wanted the villians to kill them? Or make the villians so sympathetic that you find yourself on their side as opposed to Spiderman? God I hate all three of those movies. I want a wise cracking Spiderman who fights villians, not a whiny little punk who basically beats up guys who have just suffered some tragedy or are down on their luck or something.

Likewise

 

[CaptainClown]

I really liked Doc Ock. I however didn't like how they made him sympathetic or how he died. Also like Delete said. I wish Spidey was more wise cracking

 

[The Demon's Head]

Yep. Now he squares off literally yawning at Venom. And I agree Doc Ock is above GG2 and Hobby above Kingpin. Typos. I guess.

Saying Venom is your favorite Spidey villain is like saying "Killer Croc is teh best!!!" over The Joker, Two-Face, Ra's Al Ghul, Catwoman, Bane, Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, Scarecrow, etc. It's silly.

The difference is Killer Croc actually works as a character when he's used as low level enforcer/ hitman. Venom doesn't work on any level and doesn't fit Spider-man's world.

 

[DACrowe]

Did they have to make Peter Parker and Mary Jane so damn whiny that I always wanted the villians to kill them? Or make the villians so sympathetic that you find yourself on their side as opposed to Spiderman? God I hate all three of those movies. I want a wise cracking Spiderman who fights villians, not a whiny little punk who basically beats up guys who have just suffered some tragedy or are down on their luck or something.

Was Norman Osborn sympathetic? I thought he was a bastard in the movies like in the comics and in his last breaths tries to play the sympathy card to Peter while secretly trying to kill him. Stan Lee's Norman Osborn was more sympathetic. Harry Osborn was extremely sympathetic in the comics and film. Sandman was always a pathetic villain with a sad backstory (albeit no daughter unless you count Spider-Man: Reign in which he did have a daughter who died before the movie came out).

The only villain adapted without a sob story that added one is Doc Ock and I have never heard anyone ***** about Molina's portrayal. In fact most who hate the Spidey villains praise his performance as Doc Ock, even if they gave him a wife and some tragedy.

As for Peter/MJ whining. Yeah, I'd agree with MJ, but Peter is ALWAYS whining. Pick up a damn comic book. He spends half his inner-monologue *****ing about how hard is life is or how he wishes he could be someone else or someone would cut him a break. Again more naturalistic dialogue (though that did not exist in the Spidey comics until recently) is what you're asking for.

And to be honest the only thing more annoying than hearing characters whine is hearing fans ***** about the movies when there is usually precedent of whatever it is they're complaining about (sympathetic villains, losing powers, Peter complaining, acting geeky, etc.) in the source material.

But yeah SM2 would've been so much cooler if he had said "here's web in your eyes!"

 

[Delete]

Was Norman Osborn sympathetic? I thought he was a bastard in the movies like in the comics and in his last breaths tries to play the sympathy card to Peter while secretly trying to kill him. Stan Lee's Norman Osborn was more sympathetic. Harry Osborn was extremely sympathetic in the comics and film. Sandman was always a pathetic villain with a sad backstory (albeit no daughter unless you count Spider-Man: Reign in which he did have a daughter who died before the movie came out).

The only villain adapted without a sob story that added one is Doc Ock and I have never heard anyone ***** about Molina's portrayal. In fact most who hate the Spidey villains praise his performance as Doc Ock, even if they gave him a wife and some tragedy.

As for Peter/MJ whining. Yeah, I'd agree with MJ, but Peter is ALWAYS whining. Pick up a damn comic book. He spends half his inner-monologue *****ing about how hard is life is or how he wishes he could be someone else or someone would cut him a break. Again more naturalistic dialogue (though that did not exist in the Spidey comics until recently) is what you're asking for.

And to be honest the only thing more annoying than hearing characters whine is hearing fans ***** about the movies when there is usually precedent of whatever it is they're complaining about (sympathetic villains, losing powers, Peter complaining, acting geeky, etc.) in the source material.

But yeah SM2 would've been so much cooler if he had said "here's web in your eyes!"

To me there is a difference between angst which is what they are going for in the comics and whining. Everything can suck. You can talk about and react to it. The difference is the whining.