Civil War The Civil War "ANYTHING GOES" Thread - ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK - NO SPOILER TAGS REQ.! - Part 2

[MarvelMayhem]

Immediately after the "Right to Choose" clip you may have seen, he gets a brief text notifying him.

Spoiler

During the scene where they all discuss what to do ("Right to choose" clip), he gets a text saying "She's gone. In her sleep.", after which he takes off and has some alone time in the staircase.

Thanks. I was wondering if it came off pretty emotional for him or not. I was under the impression that Hayley Attwell had no lines just her funeral.

 

[Mjölnir]

Thing is Cap is in Wakanda during the mid-credits. They can easily produce another shield for him. So the idea he left it behind is sort've watered down to me.

I don't think that will happen. Wakanda is keeping a firm hold on it's vibranium and it's most likely the reason it's been an isolationist country up until the Sokovia Accords get on the map.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

So to the people who watched the film how do you think cap was handled? I personally loved how he came off.

 

[terry78]

Yeah, this was a hybrid of Lee/Kirby era Cap and Brubaker Cap, the latter of which I feel is the definitive. I despised the way Millar wrote him in the CW comic.

 

[Corko]

Just back from watching it. Thought it started pretty weak but once Bucky got captured it was great. Had a great second half. Looking forward to the next one

 

[ChrisTinnef]

So to the people who watched the film how do you think cap was handled? I personally loved how he came off.

Cap was handled great for the most parts IMO. The only really bad plot point is when Cap and Tony have their dispute at Berlin after Bucky has been taken into custody. Cap seems to be okay with signing the Accords until Wanda's "imprisonment" is mentioned, and immediately starts to argue with Tony. It's a major point in the movie where the situation could have been de-escalated, and Cap uses Wanda as excuse not to. That was handled awefully by the script IMO.
Oh, and he let an airport gate collapse onto a teenager while he couldn't be sure on whether Peter would be strong enough not to be crushed by it.

I have another few questions after watching the movie:

1. What the hell was Crossbones' quest about? He randomly wanted to steal biological hazard, then just blows himself up? I mean – why? Who did he work for? Himself?
2. Where did Black Widow go after the Airport fight? Was she also in the Raft prison? I didn't see her...
3. How the hell did all the guys get from Bukarest to Berlin in what seemed to be a short time? That's a multiple-hours-drive. Also, why go there even in the first place? The movie is all about "respecting country borders" and Romania just lets the CIA(?)/UN Taskforce(?) take all these people to Berlin?
4. Zemo's plan depended on so much coincidences and things that could have happened very differently. Did he find out about the planned Accords and then make his plan up on the go? (He definitely is the MCU version of BvS Lex Luthor) Also: He mourns about his family and then blows up an UN building full of people? A little more insight on if he thought that it was a necessary evil or simply didn't care would have been nice.

 

[JtheDreamer]

I don't think that will happen. Wakanda is keeping a firm hold on it's vibranium

"Was" and now that Cap has earned BP's respect it's possible. We're talking about a shield here not a cargo.

 

[JtheDreamer]

3. How the hell did all the guys get from Bukarest to Berlin in what seemed to be a short time? That's a multiple-hours-drive. Also, why go there even in the first place? The movie is all about "respecting country borders" and Romania just lets the CIA(?)/UN Taskforce(?) take all these people to Berlin?

This movie was lacking certain transition sequences. It's a bi-product of being stuffed to the brim with everything and everyone.

 

[Wylie Times]

"Was" and now that Cap has earned BP's respect it's possible. We're talking about a shield here not a cargo.

Wakanda is always going to keep a firm hold of it's Vibranium. It's their most valuable resource and also incredibly dangerous. It's also the reason the Panther tribe was formed in the first place. The Black Panther's primary job is to protect Wakanda and the Vibranium mound at all cost.

In the comics Captain America and Falcon are two few people The Black Panther trusts enough with a small amount of Vibranium (for Cap's shield and Falcon's wings).

T'Challa shouldn't just go handing out Vibranium to anyone all willy nilly though.

 

[Mjölnir]

Cap was handled great for the most parts IMO. The only really bad plot point is when Cap and Tony have their dispute at Berlin after Bucky has been taken into custody. Cap seems to be okay with signing the Accords until Wanda's "imprisonment" is mentioned, and immediately starts to argue with Tony. It's a major point in the movie where the situation could have been de-escalated, and Cap uses Wanda as excuse not to. That was handled awefully by the script IMO.
Oh, and he let an airport gate collapse onto a teenager while he couldn't be sure on whether Peter would be strong enough not to be crushed by it.

I have another few questions after watching the movie:

1. What the hell was Crossbones' quest about? He randomly wanted to steal biological hazard, then just blows himself up? I mean – why? Who did he work for? Himself?
2. Where did Black Widow go after the Airport fight? Was she also in the Raft prison? I didn't see her...
3. How the hell did all the guys get from Bukarest to Berlin in what seemed to be a short time? That's a multiple-hours-drive. Also, why go there even in the first place? The movie is all about "respecting country borders" and Romania just lets the CIA(?)/UN Taskforce(?) take all these people to Berlin?
4. Zemo's plan depended on so much coincidences and things that could have happened very differently. Did he find out about the planned Accords and then make his plan up on the go? (He definitely is the MCU version of BvS Lex Luthor) Also: He mourns about his family and then blows up an UN building full of people? A little more insight on if he thought that it was a necessary evil or simply didn't care would have been nice.

Cap is not just OK with signing the accords at the point you say. He says "I'm not saying it's impossible, but if it were to happen there has to be some safeguards in place". I thought it made it clear that he was not about to sign, but he was willing to talk about it until he realized that Tony still just doesn't get it.

1. Crossbones is said to be a known terrorist so the biological hazard is probably to be used in such work, even though he might be selling it to someone else (Cap asks him who the buyer is). The reason he blows himself up is because he hates Cap for what happened to him in TWS and is apparently willing to die for revenge.

2. Widow is not taken to the Raft. She has a dialogue scene with Stark where he says that Ross is coming for her because T'Challa told him what she did at the airport. She wasn't taken out in the fight like the ones that got locked up.

3. How long time it took between them finding Bucky and getting to him isn't clear either way. The taskforce is an international one so it's logical to assume that both Germany and Romania support it.

4. Zemo had gotten a lead on how Stark's parents were murdered (we don't know exactly how, but he was a former intelligence operative) and he was out to find the WS base. His plan was not blow anything up if he could avoid it, as he states right out in his scene with the Hydra agent, but he's clearly willing to go that far if he has to. When his direct lead had run cold he had instead found a way to get the information he wanted out of Bucky, if he could find him. Then he constructed a way to have the international task force find Bucky for him. That the UN meeting for the Sokovia Accords were to happen just made it a good target for the desired effect.

 

[Mjölnir]

"Was" and now that Cap has earned BP's respect it's possible. We're talking about a shield here not a cargo.

I didn't say it was impossible, I said that I don't think it will happen. It's not illogical that the Wakandans won't make him another (meaning that it doesn't create a plot hole if they don't), and Cap getting the original back is good fodder for an emotional story in IW.

 

[JtheDreamer]

Wakanda is always going to keep a firm hold of it's Vibranium. It's their most valuable resource and also incredibly dangerous. It's also the reason the Panther tribe was formed in the first place. The Black Panther's primary job is to protect Wakanda and the Vibranium mound at all cost.

In the comics Captain America and Falcon are two few people The Black Panther trusts enough with a small amount of Vibranium (for Cap's shield and Falcon's wings).

T'Challa shouldn't just go handing out Vibranium to anyone all willy nilly though.

Who suggested they give it to any Tom, Dick and Harry?

 

[Jaxon]

Cap was handled great for the most parts IMO. The only really bad plot point is when Cap and Tony have their dispute at Berlin after Bucky has been taken into custody. Cap seems to be okay with signing the Accords until Wanda's "imprisonment" is mentioned, and immediately starts to argue with Tony. It's a major point in the movie where the situation could have been de-escalated, and Cap uses Wanda as excuse not to. That was handled awefully by the script IMO.
Oh, and he let an airport gate collapse onto a teenager while he couldn't be sure on whether Peter would be strong enough not to be crushed by it.

I have another few questions after watching the movie:

1. What the hell was Crossbones' quest about? He randomly wanted to steal biological hazard, then just blows himself up? I mean – why? Who did he work for? Himself?
2. Where did Black Widow go after the Airport fight? Was she also in the Raft prison? I didn't see her...
3. How the hell did all the guys get from Bukarest to Berlin in what seemed to be a short time? That's a multiple-hours-drive. Also, why go there even in the first place? The movie is all about "respecting country borders" and Romania just lets the CIA(?)/UN Taskforce(?) take all these people to Berlin?
4. Zemo's plan depended on so much coincidences and things that could have happened very differently. Did he find out about the planned Accords and then make his plan up on the go? (He definitely is the MCU version of BvS Lex Luthor) Also: He mourns about his family and then blows up an UN building full of people? A little more insight on if he thought that it was a necessary evil or simply didn't care would have been nice.

The Zemo plan is just so full of holes. This movie should have had Cap indirectly killing Rhodey (again Rhodey looks like he's ok) and that causing the final rift between the 2.

Script writers dropped the ball or Feige's overall plan needs a rethink. This movie needed real death not just building explosions. Rhodey and Widow should have died, and I would have liked to see Wanda rip the Infinity stone out of Vision's head and gotten rid of him.

Apparently the government is OK with a nicer version of Ultron running around but not Captain America.

 

[Mjölnir]

The Zemo plan is just so full of holes. This movie should have had Cap indirectly killing Rhodey (again Rhodey looks like he's ok) and that causing the final rift between the 2.

Script writers dropped the ball or Feige's overall plan needs a rethink. This movie needed real death not just building explosions. Rhodey and Widow should have died, and I would have liked to see Wanda rip the Infinity stone out of Vision's head and gotten rid of him.

Apparently the government is OK with a nicer version of Ultron running around but not Captain America.

Out of interest, how would you have written a war starting between them based on indirectly killing Rhodey? Rhodey means a lot to Tony but I don't see how an accidental kill would have the same effect.

Deaths just for the sake of it isn't good writing. And why would Wanda kill Vision? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Why wouldn't they be OK with a powerful being that fully submits to their ruling? How is that comparable to them not being OK with Captain America breaking their accords and willingly become an international vigilante? That makes no sense either.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

I'm going to be honest though, as strong as SM was he really did get his a** handed to him by Rogers.

 

[Jaxon]

Out of interest, how would you have written a war starting between them based on indirectly killing Rhodey? Rhodey means a lot to Tony but I don't see how an accidental kill would have the same effect.

Deaths just for the sake of it isn't good writing. And why would Wanda kill Vision? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Why wouldn't they be OK with a powerful being that fully submits to their ruling? How is that comparable to them not being OK with Captain America breaking their accords and willingly become an international vigilante? That makes no sense either.

The government just don't address the Vision situation. Ultron nearly dropped a city on the planet and Ultron 2 is running around with a universe altering stone in his head. Why are they OK with this? Why haven't the government sanctioned him for at least study?

The Sokovia accords is a good way to initiate the rift, though I think it doesn't do a good job with Cap, you have to link a lot from the previous movies to accept it. But it's not enough to get to a full contact fight. If Cap or his team had killed Rhodey that would have sent Tony into a revenge rage and that's enough. But they weren't brave enough to end the movie with Cap and Tony on opposite sides. Cap's letter to Tony basically healed the whole misunderstanding. It was just a very weak way to script what should be "War". It wasn't a war and the airport scene was just a fun skirmish. It needs to feel like people can die or it feels lifeless. And the fact that no one even came close to a death situation (Rhodey is almost walking again in 15 minutes of film time) is a huge miss for a movie like this.

I think overall the Russos poorly handled the amount of characters they had to deal with. I bet in about 2 weeks after the opening weekend cheering dies down a bit and level heads look again at this movie the flaws will be significantly increased because they are at the core of the movie. It's a shame, I loved CATWS so much, but this was a bit of a hollow ending to the best trilogy in the MCU.

 

[ernesth100]

Wow....

 

[SuperSanchez]

The government just don't address the Vision situation. Ultron nearly dropped a city on the planet and Ultron 2 is running around with a universe altering stone in his head. Why are they OK with this? Why haven't the government sanctioned him for at least study?

The Sokovia accords is a good way to initiate the rift, though I think it doesn't do a good job with Cap, you have to link a lot from the previous movies to accept it. But it's not enough to get to a full contact fight. If Cap or his team had killed Rhodey that would have sent Tony into a revenge rage and that's enough. But they weren't brave enough to end the movie with Cap and Tony on opposite sides. Cap's letter to Tony basically healed the whole misunderstanding. It was just a very weak way to script what should be "War". It wasn't a war and the airport scene was just a fun skirmish. It needs to feel like people can die or it feels lifeless. And the fact that no one even came close to a death situation (Rhodey is almost walking again in 15 minutes of film time) is a huge miss for a movie like this.

I think overall the Russos poorly handled the amount of characters they had to deal with. I bet in about 2 weeks after the opening weekend cheering dies down a bit and level heads look again at this movie the flaws will be significantly increased because they are at the core of the movie. It's a shame, I loved CATWS so much, but this was a bit of a hollow ending to the best trilogy in the MCU.

I agree on some points, disagree on other, I reckon the fight between cap, ws and ironman was brutal, I do agree with your point on how it was disappointing how they ended the movie with Tony forgiving Steve. I also agree Zemo's plot had a few holes and I'm still trying to figure it all out to be honest. Still a solid movie though!

 

[Jaxon]

I agree on some points, disagree on other, I reckon the fight between cap, ws and ironman was brutal, I do agree with your point on how it was disappointing how they ended the movie with Tony forgiving Steve. I also agree Zemo's plot had a few holes and I'm still trying to figure it all out to be honest. Still a solid movie though!

The end fight was brutal but the set-up tooit with all the coincidences of Zemo's plan was ridiculously scripted.

If they had just done Rhodey's death caused by Winter Soldier under Zemo's command that would have been the thing to do. It could have ended with Cap and WS on the run from Tony and the government and still having Panther taking out Zemo, and with some set-up reason for Panther needing to get back to Wakanda instead of being able to go and resolve the situation with Tony.

 

[SuperSanchez]

The end fight was brutal but the set-up tooit with all the coincidences of Zemo's plan was ridiculously scripted.

If they had just done Rhodey's death caused by Winter Soldier under Zemo's command that would have been the thing to do. It could have ended with Cap and WS on the run from Tony and the government and still having Panther taking out Zemo, and with some set-up reason for Panther needing to get back to Wakanda instead of being able to go and resolve the situation with Tony.

Yeah I thought Black Widow was gonna die because I heard rumours of it. I also though Ant-Man was gonna die, kinda wish Marvel didn't release their movie line up because now we know certain characters aren't gonna die. I think it would've been cool if the final shot of the film was Tony walking into the jail and then you see Tony's face shocked, then the camera goes behind him and you all the jail cells open and then Tony would be pissed.

 

[MichaelChen]

The government just don't address the Vision situation. Ultron nearly dropped a city on the planet and Ultron 2 is running around with a universe altering stone in his head. Why are they OK with this? Why haven't the government sanctioned him for at least study?

Fear? A law that only requires them to get permission from the United Nations before invading somewhere is a pretty softball law. One can't help but suspect that they are afraid of the Avengers, and unlike some stories they are very intent on not overreacting. Instead, they have constructed just about the most softball law possible that nonetheless brings the Avengers under their control. The United Nations did NOT want a civil war over this.

 

[Johnny-Oh]

I don't understand fanboys, they keep complaining about Marvel not killing their characters yet when they did kill one(Quicksilver) everyone hated that as well

 

[MichaelChen]

I don't understand fanboys, they keep complaining about Marvel not killing their characters yet when they did kill one(Quicksilver) everyone hated that as well

Maybe it's not the same group complaining about the former and the latter?

 

[Ninjablade]

So I'm just curious, I don't believe I've seen these answered but

1) How was the credit sequence? Those are some of the best things about the MCU movies, so I'm curious as to how it ranks when compared to the rest of them.

2) Were there any quite, slow character moments in the same vain as say Peggy and Steve after Bucky's "death in TFA or Natasha and Steve after the Hydra reveal? These are easily some of the best written scenes and are where M&M's excel. I just hope this movie is able to take the time and slow down a little bit to let everything breathe a bit.

 

[Sterling Archer]

One question I still have after the film ended, did Spider-man have to sign the accords?

Because either he did which means the government now knows who he is, or he didn't which means Tony is a huge hypocrite by using an illegal enhanced vigilante on his team.