Civil War The Civil War "ANYTHING GOES" Thread - ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK - NO SPOILER TAGS REQ.! - Part 2

[dyl1dyl]

There was a big opportunity when they first met but rushed it and that was pretty much the same way through for me. Especially given about a 2 year search I thought that was a Chewie/Leia sized oversight.

It's the problem with over stuffing with characters and having unnecessary scenes like Vision trying to cook, wtf....

I personally dont think the Vision cooking scene was unnecessary. It's a nice bit of fan service plus it helps develop vision's character. It makes it clear that he's infatuated with Wanda, which helps the audience to better understand why he isn't concentrating and accidentally shoots rhodey later in the film

 

[dyl1dyl]

Deaths just for the sake of it isn't good writing. And why would Wanda kill Vision? That makes no sense whatsoever.

I completely agree. Wanda would never kill Vision. She apologizes to him before increasing his density when she and Hawkeye escape the Avengers facility. Furthermore, after the airport fight, she and Vision are the only 2 avengers who actually apologize to each other with Vision holding her in his arms

 

[dyl1dyl]

Yea i think vision and wanda both were holding back, we did see how strong she was when she pushed vision deep undereground but they were definetely holding back during the fight, probably the same reason hulk and thor were not in the film some of them are just way too powerful.

Just to clarify this point. i note that many people say that Wanda pushed Vision into the ground. That's not true. What she did was increase his body density to an extremely high level so that he would fall through the ground.

 

[Filmfan93]

Seeing this beauty for a 2nd time today. Can't wait!

 

[wampa1]

My only issue with the logic.. is why Tony after all his mistakes, would take a kid into combat. I mean.. it wasn't a life or death brawl... but it could have been. It would have made more sense for him to have tracked down an adult like daredevil.

Spidey's whole deal is restraining bad guys until the police show up. DD just beats the **** out of them. Spidey is more useful for slowing down team Cap.

 

[wampa1]

It's the problem with over stuffing with characters and having unnecessary scenes like Vision trying to cook, wtf....

It's not unnecessary. It's a bit of character development for VISION but is also a ruse to prevent Wanda from leaving. Sure, you could have someone just say that Wanda is prisoner, but y'know, show don't tell.

 

[DanielFM]

I was actually surprised (and pleased) that this time (unlike in the Civil War comics) Cap managed to legit defeat Tony. No armor-hijacking tricks or shenanigans. Just guts and supersoldier badasserie. Admittedly Bucky helped a lot, but the last bout was just one on one.
I also loved how they incorporated the "analyzing Cap's fighting style" from the comics, without it turning into the pure ownage of Steve that followed in CW comics.

There were a lot of those homages across the film which clearly showed the scriptwriters had the original story in mind all the way.

 

[Filmfan93]

I was actually surprised (and pleased) that this time (unlike in the Civil War comics) Cap managed to legit defeat Tony. No armor-hijacking tricks or shenanigans. Just guts and supersoldier badasserie. Admittedly Bucky helped a lot, but the last bout was just one on one.
I also loved how they incorporated the "analyzing Cap's fighting style" from the comics, without it turning into the pure ownage of Steve that followed in CW comics.

There were a lot of those homages across the film which clearly showed the scriptwriters had the original story in mind all the way.

Agree, the last fight was pure awesomeness. It really shows how strong Cap actually is, even against Iron Man. Great choreography as well. And that scene from the teaser trailer (where both Bucky and Cap are hitting Stark from left and right) was ridiculously cool in the movie itself.

 

[Jaxon]

I personally dont think the Vision cooking scene was unnecessary. It's a nice bit of fan service plus it helps develop vision's character. It makes it clear that he's infatuated with Wanda, which helps the audience to better understand why he isn't concentrating and accidentally shoots rhodey later in the film

And Rhodey survives of course which makes Tonys fight with Cap about Cap knowing about how his father died probably the weakest reason to ever hit a movie screen.

 

[QueenOroro808]

And Rhodey survives of course which makes Tonys fight with Cap about Cap knowing about how his father died probably the weakest reason to ever hit a movie screen.

Martha?

 

[Darkraid]

Anyone noticed that Sharon said the no you move line in the funeral. Ready to comply was a direct reference to aos and agent carter.

 

[Avid Avenger]

Martha?

Triggered.

 

[Jaxon]

Martha?

Letter from Steve?

 

[QueenOroro808]

Letter from Steve?

Email from Bruce?

 

[ChrisTinnef]

Just to clarify this point. i note that many people say that Wanda pushed Vision into the ground. That's not true. What she did was increase his body density to an extremely high level so that he would fall through the ground.

Oh, THAT'S what she did. Thanks for pointing that out, I apparently misunderstood that scene as well^^

There was a big opportunity when they first met but rushed it and that was pretty much the same way through for me. Especially given about a 2 year search I thought that was a Chewie/Leia sized oversight.

No, it wouldn't have worked well at that point. With how they did it in the movie, the audience can't be sure how much control Bucky has over himself and whether he's still brainwashed at that moment. It holds the tension up. I think the big opportunity was when Bucky and Steve were on that Quinjet, they would have had a lot of time to talk properly at that point.

Not really. Spider-Man is not an official member of the Avengers, and the accords were for the Avengers. He's basically a mercenary working for Tony on a one-off basis. He didn't really hurt anything, he just added flavor to the scenes, plus it serves as a really good introduction of the character into the MCU (I mean, who would want another origin story lol).

Still – if the UN knew about Parker, they would probably make him sign the accords whether he's an Avenger or not. About Tony putting a teenager into battle: He made it quite clear when talking to Peter that he should stay in the background and only "tie" Team Cap up. It's Peter himself who gets more engaged, I think (or was someone of Team Cap attacking him? I don't completely remmber...)

 

[Wylie Times]

Peter legally couldn't sign the accords even if he wanted to, he's a minor.

 

[DanielFM]

And Rhodey survives of course which makes Tonys fight with Cap about Cap knowing about how his father died probably the weakest reason to ever hit a movie screen.

Cap's fighting to protect Bucky from being unjustly killed. Tony wants to put Cap out of commission to kill Bucky (with an added pinch of rage for lying to him the whole time.
I see no weak reason at all here, but maybe your lack of understanding of the scene.

Anyone noticed that Sharon said the no you move line in the funeral. Ready to comply was a direct reference to aos and agent carter.

Yep. I disliked it a lot. It was unnecessary to give this quote to Peggy instead of Cap: it's so iconic to him to get it wasted like that.

Letter from Steve?

It was a 100% Steve Rogers move. That's how noble he is. He never meant any wrong towards Tony. For me it was a moving, intimate moment of the film.

 

[Mjölnir]

The government just don't address the Vision situation. Ultron nearly dropped a city on the planet and Ultron 2 is running around with a universe altering stone in his head. Why are they OK with this? Why haven't the government sanctioned him for at least study?

The Sokovia accords is a good way to initiate the rift, though I think it doesn't do a good job with Cap, you have to link a lot from the previous movies to accept it. But it's not enough to get to a full contact fight. If Cap or his team had killed Rhodey that would have sent Tony into a revenge rage and that's enough. But they weren't brave enough to end the movie with Cap and Tony on opposite sides. Cap's letter to Tony basically healed the whole misunderstanding. It was just a very weak way to script what should be "War". It wasn't a war and the airport scene was just a fun skirmish. It needs to feel like people can die or it feels lifeless. And the fact that no one even came close to a death situation (Rhodey is almost walking again in 15 minutes of film time) is a huge miss for a movie like this.

I think overall the Russos poorly handled the amount of characters they had to deal with. I bet in about 2 weeks after the opening weekend cheering dies down a bit and level heads look again at this movie the flaws will be significantly increased because they are at the core of the movie. It's a shame, I loved CATWS so much, but this was a bit of a hollow ending to the best trilogy in the MCU.

How exactly do you figure the UN would have brought him in for that before? They are just getting the accords together, and he's fully submitting to oversight so there's no reason for them to take drastic action. Any eventual testing would logically come after the accords are in place, but the whole movie is of course about the difficulty of getting to a place where the accords are in proper effect.

I don't see IM getting into a revenge spree over an accidental kill. It's shown in the movie as Tony never did anything to Vision. Unlike some directors the Russos get these characters.

You're free to have your opinion, but you talking about flaws when you, among other things, couldn't figure out that Vision would have told Tony about Clint taking Wanda from their custody makes me think you weren't really paying attention when watching the movie, as that was one of the most obvious off screen things in there.

Because Spider-Man was retrofitted into the script everything that happened with him you basically have to suspend logic because it opens up a lot of plot holes. He was a fun character but it hurt the integrity of the story when you really think about it.

Wrong, the script was begun with Spidey in hand from day 1, as the Russos have explained clearly. They knew that negotiations were going on with Sony, and the simultaneous script without Spidey (in case the deal went south) was the secondary one.

 

[Filmfan93]

Cap's fighting to protect Bucky from being unjustly killed.

Not sure if it is unjustly. Dude brutally killed Tony's parents. Or did you mean facing a fair trial instead of getting beaten out to death by Tony?

 

[BatsDC]

Wrong, the script was begun with Spidey in hand from day 1, as the Russos have explained clearly. They knew that negotiations were going on with Sony, and the simultaneous script without Spidey (in case the deal went south) was the secondary one.

They didn't even have that. The Russos said in an interview that they didn't want to make the deal less likely by saying "well, we could still do this without him", so they never had a second version of the script.

 

[DanielFM]

Not sure if it is unjustly. Dude brutally killed Tony's parents. Or did you mean facing a fair trial instead of getting beaten out to death by Tony?

It's one half that, and one half Bucky doing so under mental conditioning (thus not being morally responsible of the murder).

 

[Vapor]

Loved the film, like with the first Avengers, it felt like a comic coming to life. I thought Giant Man popping us was great and the new Spider-Man was fantastic... it bodes well for the new film.

My main reason for coming here was to see if anyone else caught the possible Deadpool background cameo?

In the beginning sequence when Scarlet Witch is sat at the tables there is a shot where in the middle of the background, there is a person with his back to the camera with what looked like a red mask and a red suit with brown detailing (possibly pouches). It didn't look as high quality as the Deadpool suit, in fact it was most likely just a guy in a red hoody with a brown backpack, although the "hood" did look like it covered his face..

Now I know that it won't be anything official, in fact it could just have being my eyes and not even a real thing but something about the way it was quite clear in the background made me think that someone just had a joke on set that day and left a little easter egg.

 

[Mjölnir]

They didn't even have that. The Russos said in an interview that they didn't want to make the deal less likely by saying "well, we could still do this without him", so they never had a second version of the script.

I might have misremembered some remark they made. Since I'm too lazy to look up the interview I'm thinking of I'll take you on your word.

 

[Avid Avenger]

Tony went off the grid to get Spider-Man because...

1) He doesn't brutally beat anyone like Daredevil does.
2) His powers, strength, speed and webbing made him a huge asset who could hold his own against most of Team Cap.
C) His identity is unknown to the government, so if they did find out about him being used Tony can just say "I don't know who he is."
D) He's also not an Avenger, so isn't forced to sign the Accords.
V) He's also a minor, so he can't sign the Accords anyway.
6) Spider-Man was meant to hang back and just keep webbing people up and slow them down...He got more involved on his on volition.

So a super strong character, who doesn't have to sign the Accords, just wants to do what is right, has a substance to hold and contain people and has held back his strength with smaller/weaker criminals.

No, his inclusion is very very fitting.

 

[yllum]

Ok this is a total nitpick.

As awesome as steve is, how does he break into that underwater prison alone. Or did he do it alone? thoughts? BP helped?

I have to emphasize once again this is a nitpick.