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Lex plan was to have Superman kill Batman. If he had done that Lex would be a hero for creating Doomsday to kill Superman.

See, *this* I could buy. I mean, it has a *huge* list of problems, but no moreso than any other motivation in the movie. It otherwise would fit *relatively* neatly as a plausible "heads I win tails you lose" plan for the final fight.
 
Did you? It was argued that there wasn't enough information in the film to claim Lex may have created Doomsday after learning dire information about the universe. My post presents information in the film as a counterpoint: Lex did create Doomsday after asking the ship to share all of its knowledge with him. He asks the ship to "teach me" and in a subsequent scene Lex creates Doomsday. In a later scene, we see that Lex is communing with Steppenwolf via the ship. So there's enough information in the film to contextualize Lex's possible motives. It's not as though there is literally nothing in the film to back up claims that Doomsday's creation may have been at least partially attributable to Apokoliptian influence. Regardless, even if there is context to support such a theory, it's not necessary to explain why Lex would create Doomsday. He does it to destroy Superman and ultimately fails because of his reckless hubris.

Pointing out that the ship taught him how to create Doomsday does not then explain that he did so because he had knowledge of a forthcoming alien invasion.

Like metaphysician points out, we see (in a deleted scene) him talking with Steppenwolf about mother boxes at the very end of the movie but that doesn't clarify anything. He was displayed as an unhinged lunatic with garbled motivations even before he got on the ship, so the question of when he first made contact with the new gods, what he learned, and most importantly how that informed his actions is just not in the movie.
 
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Pointing out that the ship taught him how to create Doomsday does not then explain that he did so because he had knowledge of a forthcoming alien invasion.

Like metaphysician points out, we see (in a deleted scene) him talking with Steppenwolf about mother boxes at the very end of the movie but that doesn't clarify anything. He was displayed as an unhinged lunatic with garbled motivations even before he got on the ship, so the question of when he first made contact with the new gods, what he learned, and most importantly how that informed his actions is just straight up not in the movie.
I think this sort of thing is what bothers me most about these discussions. Marvel movies are wonderful to watch, but they more often than not have more plot holes than a Steve Allen murder mystery, too.

I get it. Lots of people did not enjoy the DCU films...but it seems disingenuous to use the sort of reasoning that often gets used to poke at them. Is it not enough to just say a movie did not work for one?
 
It is in the movie, the scene with Luthor in prison makes it pretty clear. It's a bit like the end of an Agatha Christie story where the villain reveals why they did it.


Man, as much as Eisenberg's Luthor is a disaster of a performance that scene independent of the rest of the film is quite cool, there's a real fun literary quality to Terrio's dialogue when it isn't borderline nonsense. 'Civilization on the wane... Manners, out the window.', weakened by Eisenberg's bold choice to play Lex like one of the Skids from Letterkenny but, still, there's something to it.

I'm curious what Terrio could have delivered working alongside a director with clearer, saner narrative sensibilities than Snyder.
 
I wouldn't go that far. Subtext and theme is real and important.

Its just, "Luthor was influenced by Darkseid/New Gods stuff" isn't subtext or theme *either*. Even including the cut content, Luthor explicitly didn't have any contact with New Gods stuff until the very end, after every character-informing action was already taken. He otherwise has. . . well, rather incoherent subtexts and themes, but while they include a bunch of clashing components, "I am a dupe of elder horrors" isn't one of them.

It's an OK personal theory, but I don't think it goes far even under the subtext label. Motivation = character, and BVS Lex is whatever his explicit motives are. What the film leaves out, he is not. If the film had wanted it understood that an impending invasion was key in Lex's rationale to make a 3rd-act-must-have monster he could've ended up not even needing, they would've made it explicit and integral to the rest of the story, as it would've helped provide a meatier angle. That's not where they went, though. It requires people to fill the gaps w the logic that's missing.
 
I think the core or Luthors motivation in BVS is the same as Batmans; "the feeling of powerlessness".
Luthor can't stand feeling like he isn't in control, it's something that ties back to his childhood, being unable to stop his fathers abuse.
It's why he reacts the way he does when Senator Finch stops his drumming hand, he despises someone else imposing their will on him.
Prior to Supermans appearance, Luthor could comfort himself with the knowledge that there was no one he couldn't bribe, blackmail, intimidate or assassinate. He was powerful, untouchable.
But after, there was someone beyond his reach, someone who could at any moment do whatever he wanted to Lex, he was left feeling powerless again.

Even if Luthor doesn't know about the Apokoliptian invasion before creating Doomsday, it is still in his mind a way of taking control, of feeling powerful. He sees Doomsday as an an extension of himself, living vicariously through it, and thus feeling that he is more powerful than Superman.

I think Luthor would rather die by his own hand than live at the mercy of another. Being rich and popular and out of prison means nothing so long as the shadow of Superman lingers over him.
 
So is the below list fairly accurate as far what where different projects statuses are in the DCU?

Confirmed releases: WW84, Birds of Prey

Pre-production (early script stage): Aquaman 2, The Trench (Aquaman spin-off), The Batman, Black Adam, New Gods

Development Hell: The Flash, Green Lantern Corps

I remember reading news about a possible Blue Beetle movie but haven’t heard much else.

The slate seems so paltry.
 
So is the below list fairly accurate as far what where different projects statuses are in the DCU?

Confirmed releases: WW84, Birds of Prey

Pre-production (early script stage): Aquaman 2, The Trench (Aquaman spin-off), The Batman, Black Adam, New Gods

Development Hell: The Flash, Green Lantern Corps

I remember reading news about a possible Blue Beetle movie but haven’t heard much else.

The slate seems so paltry.

You forgot Suicide Squad, Gunn’s filming that in a couple months. WW84, Birds of Prey, Suicide Squad and Batman are coming in 2020 and 2021. Two solid DC releases a year is a good rhythm.

I think 2022 will give us Aquaman 2, Shazam 2 and something off kilter like Joker. I dont think Trench is gonna happen nor New Gods nor Black Adam.
 
The WB needs a complete restructuring & firing a bunch of people & new Studio Executives & probably some new CEOs
 
I don’t see why a simple slate is so hard for them to come up with. Marvel kept it simple initially and then slowly branched out with each phase and it paid off big time.

I feel like even fans could come up with a halfway decent set of movies that compliment each other and ultimately lead into a team up film, but for some reason this just completely dumbfounds these execs.
 
You forgot Suicide Squad, Gunn’s filming that in a couple months. WW84, Birds of Prey, Suicide Squad and Batman are coming in 2020 and 2021. Two solid DC releases a year is a good rhythm.

I think 2022 will give us Aquaman 2, Shazam 2 and something off kilter like Joker. I dont think Trench is gonna happen nor New Gods nor Black Adam.
I'd be surprised if New Gods didn't happen
 
WB should really move up Suicide Squad to 2020. No reason it needs to be on the shelf for that long.
 
So is the below list fairly accurate as far what where different projects statuses are in the DCU?

Confirmed releases: WW84, Birds of Prey

Pre-production (early script stage): Aquaman 2, The Trench (Aquaman spin-off), The Batman, Black Adam, New Gods

Development Hell: The Flash, Green Lantern Corps

I remember reading news about a possible Blue Beetle movie but haven’t heard much else.

The slate seems so paltry.
You've forgotten all about Cyborg (just as everyone else almost has). :p

I'm uncertain about Black Adam too, one would think they'd want to get that out before Shazam 2, to then have him show up in the Shazam sequel (though not as the main villain; save him for Shazam 3).

I most want to see a GLC trilogy at this point, it doesn't specifically have to be tied into the DCEU, but it can lead into it if so desired. No reason we couldn't have a GLC trilogy featuring Hal & John, and then (when it comes to a point that we get a JL2) they can introduce a newer Lantern as the JL member; maybe Jessica or Kyle? Something different..
 
I dont think Trench is gonna happen nor New Gods nor Black Adam.

Black Adam is definitely happening, it has Director, Producer and the script. Trench and New Gods is in early script writing stages.
 
I think a Black adam movie would be a waste of space and a waste of a movie slot that could be used for something else. Just like with Marvel only so many DC movies can be produced each year so each film needs to count and be worth it. We need a Shazam 2 asap as those kids are going to be grown soon. Shazam built up goodwill, get that sequel going first, introduce Black Adam and THEN give the Rock his own movie if he’s received well.
 
I don’t see why a simple slate is so hard for them to come up with. Marvel kept it simple initially and then slowly branched out with each phase and it paid off big time.

I feel like even fans could come up with a halfway decent set of movies that compliment each other and ultimately lead into a team up film, but for some reason this just completely dumbfounds these execs.

The problem is they don’t have someone like Feige to guide them as to what properties to develop and then finding good talent to develop those properties.
 
Introduce Black Adam in Shazam 2 and have the Shazam family defeat him and then do a prequel Black Adam movie?
 
I think the plan is to release BA before Shazam 2.

Edit: I got that wrong, BA, Shazam 2, followed by Shazam Vs BA is what they are planning.
 
I think the plan is to release BA before Shazam 2.

Edit: I got that wrong, BA, Shazam 2, followed by Shazam Vs BA is what they are planning.

Which is not the right way to go imo. Shazam 2 needs more immediate attention to keep the momentum going and also the kids are going to grow real fast.
 
It's an OK personal theory, but I don't think it goes far even under the subtext label. Motivation = character, and BVS Lex is whatever his explicit motives are. What the film leaves out, he is not. If the film had wanted it understood that an impending invasion was key in Lex's rationale to make a 3rd-act-must-have monster he could've ended up not even needing, they would've made it explicit and integral to the rest of the story, as it would've helped provide a meatier angle. That's not where they went, though. It requires people to fill the gaps w the logic that's missing.

Exactly. It's a theory. My post was in support of a theory, pointing out that there's some hints in the film that could support that reading. There's not NOTHING. The idea doesn't totally come out of thin air. No one ever said those hints make it a FACT or that it's EXPLICITLY in the movie, just that it's something that could have been a factor.

As for why Lex created Doomsday when it was dangerous, it doesn't have to be so complicated. He did it because he wanted to destroy Superman in body and in legacy, because his childhood abuse taught him to despise fantastical saviors as frauds and to put his faith in himself above all else. That is the motivation. Doomsday is just one of the methods he develops to achieve his goal. Accordingly, his core motivation is explicit and coherent throughout the film; the method just changes in response to aspects of the plan failing or succeeding. Doomsday is the extreme response, and it's not unlike other extreme responses in reality and fiction.

Historically, governments have developed dangerous weapons that could have disastrous implications, like the atomic bomb, to make themselves feel powerful and secure. In fiction, you have rival governments like the USA and USSR daring to open a portal to another world (the Upside Down) in Stranger Things when either they didn't know what they could find or did and persisted anyway. In the MCU, S.H.I.E.L.D. messes with the Tesseract at the start of Avengers, instigating the threat the team faces in the film. They even dare utilize Hulk when they aren't sure he can control himself. Then we have Tony Stark, who in this very thread was recently touted as an ideal model for Luthor. He, like Lex in BvS, becomes desperate enough to create Ultron in response to an existential threat and crisis. Even Lex himself has created creatures like Bizarro and Nuclear Man in other incarnations in his quest to challenge the man of steel.

The creation of Doomsday fits with Luthor's motivation to destroy Superman (destroy god and faith in god) and his hubris (he believes he can control him or handle the fallout). Switching your focus and this thread's focus to Doomsday when your original point had nothing to do with Doomsday and wrongly claimed that Lex hated Superman because he reminded him of his abusive father does little to undermine the way that core motivation was presented in the film and, in light of the analogous scenarios I presented in the paragraph above, even the complaint about Doomsday becomes little more than a weak nitpick.
 
Shazam built up goodwill, get that sequel going first, introduce Black Adam and THEN give the Rock his own movie if he’s received well.
Introduce Black Adam in Shazam 2 and have the Shazam family defeat him and then do a prequel Black Adam movie?
I think the plan is to release BA before Shazam 2. Edit: I got that wrong, BA, Shazam 2, followed by Shazam Vs BA is what they are planning.
Which is not the right way to go imo. Shazam 2 needs more immediate attention to keep the momentum going and also the kids are going to grow real fast.
Whilst I can appreciate the kids growing up rather fast, that's always going to be a concern, so they're going to have to address it at some point anyway. Just think of a Justice League sequel (which is no doubt years away yet at the earliest) may very well include Shazam, but by that point, these kids will all be much older.

In my opinion, Black Adam needs his story told before he's battling Shazam. We need to know why he is in dispute with Shazam, and what brought him to where he is now, there's no point telling us about that after their fight. That would be almost as pointless as giving an Avengers original character a prequel movie after they've been killed off in the present timeline. o_O
 
Whilst I can appreciate the kids growing up rather fast, that's always going to be a concern, so they're going to have to address it at some point anyway. Just think of a Justice League sequel (which is no doubt years away yet at the earliest) may very well include Shazam, but by that point, these kids will all be much older.

In my opinion, Black Adam needs his story told before he's battling Shazam. We need to know why he is in dispute with Shazam, and what brought him to where he is now, there's no point telling us about that after their fight. That would be almost as pointless as giving an Avengers original character a prequel movie after they've been killed off in the present timeline. o_O

I guess my question would be then why does Black Adam deserve his own full movie? I mean, besides the fact that the Rock’s playing him, what about Adam warrants a full feature film unlike any other supervillain?
 
I guess my question would be then why does Black Adam deserve his own full movie? I mean, besides the fact that the Rock’s playing him, what about Adam warrants a full feature film unlike any other supervillain?

You pretty much answered your own question: The Rock is one of the biggest stars on the planet and one of like, 4 actors left who can actually open a huge movie on their name alone, and WB wants to cash in on that, especially in a period where they're still seeking a stable foothold.

But aside from that, Black Adam is a character who can reasonably carry a movie since he shifts wildly between outright villain and sympathetic anti-hero depending on who is writing him. Geoff Johns' JSA stuff in particular veered heavily towards the latter portrayal.
 
I guess my question would be then why does Black Adam deserve his own full movie? I mean, besides the fact that the Rock’s playing him, what about Adam warrants a full feature film unlike any other supervillain?
From the studio perspective, it’s all because Dwayne is playing him and they know he’ll draw the crowd. The guy have charisma.

From a comic perspective, isn’t he more of an antihero now than a pure villain? He had centuries of history to draw from too - the same cannot be said of Joker, Black Manta, Orm or Doomsday in that respect.

Honestly, and I know it’ll never happen because it probably just wouldn’t ‘fit’, but Adam originates from Ancient Egypt, right? The Hawks also originate from that time, so I’d love if the Black Adam film had him in conflict with Hawkman and Hawlgirl where he winds up on the losing side and takes some time out before returning for Shazam 2.

Perfect way to introduce the Hawks to the DCEU, maybe even other villains like Vandal Savage? Sets the scene for his return too, and builds his character.
 
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I think a Black Adam film could be interesting if done right. A superhero Breaking Bad, follow his descent from benevolent champion to cruel dictator to vengeful destroyer. His ego and pride destroying everything he originally sought to protect.
It wouldn't be "the feel good film of the year" but I would watch it.
 

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