The Rise of Skywalker The Episode IX Trailer Threadganza!!!!

[sueb1863]

So what do you guys think is gonna be palpatines role in this? I mean the most likely scenario

I think he's going to be either a hologram or a Force induced flashback explaining the cloning program that produced Rey (who I think is a clone using both Anakin and Palpatine's source material). I don't think he's going to be a ghost or alive. It's too late in the story to bring him in that way, I think.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I think he's going to be either a hologram or a Force induced flashback explaining the cloning program that produced Rey (who I think is a clone using both Anakin and Palpatine's source material). I don't think he's going to be a ghost or alive. It's too late in the story to bring him in that way, I think.

I could see this happening, but I also think we may learn that palpatine tried getting a vessel for himself, such as snoke.

 

[Aximili86]

You wouldn't put him so dramatically in the teaser trailer and bring Ian out on stage if it were just a hologram or one of the pre-recorded droids from Battlefront. It'll be more than that.

I tend to figure he did die in Jedi, he's physically gone, but his consciousness/influence has been active ever since. Somehow. Like we know darksiders don't "force ghost", but Palpatine's also made out to be something as more-than-the-average-Sith-bear in both old canon and new, I could see him being around as something else, something new. With Luke probably the lightside equivalent, both of them not quite "force ghosts" but something up-and-above that.

So Palps has been orchestrating Snoke and turning Ben, he's probably what we know from the books has been "watching over" Ben since he was a fetus from the Beyond that Leia senses. It wouldn't have to be as direct as actually controlling Snoke as an "avatar", possessing him, more just some sort of less tangible darkside influence, more ethereal. Snoke wouldn't even need to know it's happening. I really doubt it was as direct as Palps speaking through Snoke (their personalities are similar, but they're different too), Snoke'll be his own separate entity, but more like an unwitting pawn. He's been carrying out Palp's plans all along, without knowing it, that type of thing. Darkside mojo.

That way a) Rey & Ben dynamic is still the main show, the meat of the story, with Ben as the physical threat and with his own agency/agenda, ability to eventually break out from under Palpatine's sway, B) you don't have to devote huge screentime to Palps in order for him to still cast a huge shadow over the whole movie, RotJ screentime would suffice, and C) you're more coloring in the blanks of the trilogy so far in a way that makes sense, than introducing totally new concepts that don't fit.

Get the sense a lot of that opera monologue in III is going to play into all of this. Like Sidious actually did learn his master's secrets before snuffing him, he's not quite a force ghost but he's not actually surviving either, it's more just his "essence" or whatever you want to call it. There's precedent for it in canon with all the Momin stuff, and the animated shows have opened up that more spiritual side a good deal more.

 

[Gothamsknight]

You wouldn't put him so dramatically in the teaser trailer and bring Ian out on stage if it were just a hologram or one of the pre-recorded droids from Battlefront. It'll be more than that.

I tend to figure he did die in Jedi, he's physically gone, but his consciousness/influence has been active ever since. Somehow. Like we know darksiders don't "force ghost", but Palpatine's also made out to be something as more-than-the-average-Sith-bear in both old canon and new, I could see him being around as something else, something new. With Luke probably the lightside equivalent, both of them not quite "force ghosts" but something up-and-above that.

So Palps has been orchestrating Snoke and turning Ben, he's probably what we know from the books has been "watching over" Ben since he was a fetus from the Beyond that Leia senses. It wouldn't have to be as direct as actually controlling Snoke as an "avatar", possessing him, more just some sort of less tangible darkside influence, more ethereal. Snoke wouldn't even need to know it's happening. I really doubt it was as direct as Palps speaking through Snoke (their personalities are similar, but they're different too), Snoke'll be his own separate entity, but more like an unwitting pawn. He's been carrying out Palp's plans all along, without knowing it, that type of thing. Darkside mojo.

That way a) Rey & Ben dynamic is still the main show, the meat of the story, with Ben as the physical threat and with his own agency/agenda, ability to eventually break out from under Palpatine's sway, B) you don't have to devote huge screentime to Palps in order for him to still cast a huge shadow over the whole movie, RotJ screentime would suffice, and C) you're more coloring in the blanks of the trilogy so far in a way that makes sense, than introducing totally new concepts that don't fit.

Get the sense a lot of that opera monologue in III is going to play into all of this. Like Sidious actually did learn his master's secrets before snuffing him, he's not quite a force ghost but he's not actually surviving either, it's more just his "essence" or whatever you want to call it. There's precedent for it in canon with all the Momin stuff, and the animated shows have opened up that more spiritual side a good deal more.

Considering this film will connect everything, I can absolutely see palpatines opera speech coming into play here. With all the rumors of a threat from beyond and the mcguffin, I don't think palpatines role will be anything less than significant. JJ keeps saying how the film has to be a sequel to 8 other movies and I think his emphasis on that should not be understated .

 

[BatLobster]

Considering this film will connect everything, I can absolutely see palpatines opera speech coming into play here. With all the rumors of a threat from beyond and the mcguffin, I don't think palpatines role will be anything less than significant. JJ keeps saying how the film has to be a sequel to 8 other movies and I think his emphasis on that should not be understated .

Absolutely.

There is a reason SO many people have been fixated on that opera speech for years and the Plagueis theories were everywhere. It is dripping with a forboding atmosphere, and raises questions with huge implications for the saga that have so far never been answered (well, besides the Legends Plagueis book but even that had a sense of ambiguity in its ending). The last film is the perfect time to cash in those chips somehow.

 

[Aximili86]

Well, I doubt Plagueis is factoring into it (beyond maybe a one-line mention the way Luke referred to Darth Sidious last time around), the casual fans aren't going to remember d*ck about that 14 years ago and it'll just muddy the waters for them. Buuuut yeah, for us nerds it'll probably be clear enough that it's a continuation of that thread, the way Palpatine's still around in whatever form he's in is through what he learned back then pre-EpI.

Also kinda curious about Hayden being there for this one. Seems he's kind of a guy who lays low in general, and hasn't really been big on the convention scene in general. Not sure what to make of it given they made a bigger deal of Ian, you'd figure if Anakin's ghost factors in here he'd get at least as much attention, but yeah, they could always just be keeping that hush-hush too. Though then you're back to square one of "why have him at Celebration if you don't want that speculation going around?".

*Shrugs*

So many ways this could go, really curious to see how it plays out.

Someone mentioned that the ship we see flying over that mountainous and developed/lit-up landscape in the trailer is the same ship that leaves kid-Rey on Jakku in her TFA vision, too, that's pretty damn interesting. Didn't pick up on that. So whatever that scene is is likely either flashback or another vision, which does play into J.J.'s whole "there's more to her birth/family than was told in TLJ" thing. God I hope they don't retcon her being unrelated to the mains, though. Have her a "Skywalker" by virtue of deed, not by blood. She picks up and continues from Luke where the blood relative didn't.

Still, curious as **** about that scene now that that tidbit's been put out there.

 

[sueb1863]

I could see this happening, but I also think we may learn that palpatine tried getting a vessel for himself, such as snoke.

Possible. I would really like to see them make Snoke relevant because he seemed pretty pointless otherwise.

 

[Iceman]

When do we think bringing back Palpatine first entered the thoughts of the creatives for Star Wars? Before TFA? Before TPM? 20 minutes before IX’s trailer release?

 

[X Knight]

When do we think bringing back Palpatine first entered the thoughts of the creatives for Star Wars? Before TFA? Before TPM? 20 minutes before IX’s trailer release?

after they saw the positive reaction to IX trailer.

 

[Sithborg]

When do we think bringing back Palpatine first entered the thoughts of the creatives for Star Wars? Before TFA? Before TPM? 20 minutes before IX’s trailer release?

Considering Dark Empire was one of Lucas' favorite bits of EU, likely it was within his original plan.

 

[Aximili86]

When do we think bringing back Palpatine first entered the thoughts of the creatives for Star Wars? Before TFA? Before TPM? 20 minutes before IX’s trailer release?

Kennedy & Abrams both said at Celebration it's been the plan since production on TFA. Not that the usual suspects will believe them on that, it'll be more "lolz they're lying they're making it up they go along" (like George with the originals, guys? Heh), but still.

I buy it, especially given how George was working on TFA with Arndt for like a year. Palpatine being the big-picture long-game plan among Kathleen/George/Arndt in those early days sounds legit, more like they didn't get as far as actual specifics. So no different to the OT in that respect.

 

[Marvolo]

I dont believe it's always been the plan since TFA for one reason: Snoke. Why introduce a Sidious knockoff if you're planning to bring back Sidious? I think JJ decided to bring back Sidious when he started working on the script for this film, because Rian killed off Snoke.

 

[Aximili86]

You don't know what the context is for Snoke yet.

Snoke still potentially works here, though I do wish they'd maybe gone with the original snake design for Snoke rather than the old darkside-warped guy if they were going to bring in Sheev in the third.

Plenty of ways this could go. Snoke as secret apprentice, Snoke as unwitting useless-guy pawn of Palpatine with the latter's essence flowing through him (possessed I guess, an option I don't like much, because similar as they are the personalities are a little different), Snoke as legitimate darkside power and ambitious tyrant but being manipulated by Sheev subtly through darkside mojo (without Snoke being an "avatar" as such, still his own guy). We don't know yet.

Also, complaining about "Sidious knockoff" and "killing off Snoke" seems contradictory. We don't know if Abrams wanted him killed off in a second movie, but by virtue of going out as punkishly as he did before the story climax, he's not a "Sidious knockoff". That argument held merit in TFA, not now though. They fill completely different roles with the story mechanics, Snoke's only there as of now to elevate Ben. Whether they mix that up a bit now that Palpatine's back is anyone's guess.

 

[BatLobster]

Yep. After some reflection, I actually totally believe Kennedy's comments about it. It certainly could make sense of why there has been all this stuff about Palpatine in the new canon material, and all of it has hinted that even as Emperor he was still in search of more power, "the Beyond", etc. Also, all the stuff about Force-possessed objects.

I think some of the usual suspects are experiencing cognitive dissonance at the moment because it conflicts with their "KK has no idea what she's doing, no plan!!!" narrative that they've all double, triple and quadrupled down on at this point.

I also believe this was a George idea. JJ keeps referencing the fact that there are some very old ideas at play here. You have to remember, the original concept for the sequel trilogy was that it was going to finally deal with the Emperor. This changed when Lucas realized the sequel trilogy had a slim to none chance of ever happening because he was more interested in the backstory and burnt out, and he decided to tie up all loose ends in ROTJ. But the original concept was always that the Emperor was going to be a thread running through the entire saga. So I can totally see him coming up with some way of bringing him back for the finale.

Think about it...if Palpatine was just immediately brought back in VII, it would've undone the ending of ROTJ 10x more and I think a lot of people would've outright rejected it. If you had him in the background plotting and pulling strings with not-so-subtle hints, then it's more of a rehash of the PT again. Quietly setting the stage for his return and making his appearance limited to only the final film in the saga is the sweet spot for how to pull this off in a way that feels right. The crazy reaction to the reveal in the teaser is proof of that.

And I'm sorry but there is NO WAY they would've killed off Snoke without having at least some sort of acknowledgement that IX would have to feature a greater evil. KK may not be the Star Wars lore expert that Dave Filoni is, but she got this job for a reason. Her experience speaks for itself and she's, you know, had actual conversations with George about where this is all supposed to be going.

The cherry on top of all of this is that think about how much more interesting The Emperor's return is in the context of Kylo Ren now being Supreme Leader. This is still a new dynamic with really exciting possibilities, especially his complex relationship with Rey.

This all just f***ing rules.

 

[Aximili86]

Yeah, with you on the George's-intention thing. It's always seemed to me like while the specifics are different, they're all kind of respecting the big broad picture of where George wanted it to go.

ie. Rey (Kira at the time) = George. Imperial Remnant/TIEs/Star Destroyers/yadda yadda (becoming First Order in name post-Kasdan) = George. "Jedi Killer" (we don't know if he was a Skywalker at the time, but conceptually) = George. Hero being a scavenger (though more a swamp planet than desert under George) = George. Luke in exile (though we don't know if for the same reasons) = George. Leia as respected military general at-odds with the New Republic = George.

To me that's kinda...pretty convincing. The way it all actually played out in a specific sense changed once Kasdan & Abrams, then Johnson, came aboard respectively, but it's all kind of in very general terms pointed in the same direction George was going in those early days on The Force Awakens soon after selling to Disney.

In that respect, totally, Palpatine being the intention for the third movie I buy. I wouldn't take any "we've had it all planned out in a specific detailed sense since 2014" stuff seriously, of course, but that's no different to the original trilogy. Vader wasn't intended as being Luke's father when making A New Hope, Leia wasn't intended as being Luke's sister when making The Empire Strikes Back. It's really only the prequels that were planned out significantly before making the first of that trilogy, and even thing a bunch of ideas changed along the way.

Snoke, while I feel maybe doesn't entirely hit home 100%, isn't an issue here if you do it right. So many ways that could go while still making sense. I don't think he personally knew Palpatine, but he doesn't necessarily have to. If he's a second apprentice from the original trilogy days (much as I hope that's not the case), it can work. If he's just some random non-force-sensitive schmuck that Palpatine's "essence" has inhabited and used as a vessel, unknown to Snoke (much a I hope that's not the case too), that works also.

I'm sort of leaning more "Snoke was an actual legit darksider who managed to insert himself creatively in The First Order during its infancy, though he's unwittingly being doing Sheev's bidding this whole time, ideas and direction planted in his head through visions or premonitions or some equivalent" though. That doesn't cheapen the first two movies, and also explains the whole "dark presence from the unknown" from the books that's been watching Ben since he was a ****ing sperm. Palpatine. Lost Anakin in the end, Anakin's kid is pure of soul, go after the weak-of-character manchild of a grandson instead.

That being said, Rey playing into Palpatine's plans wouldn't surprise me one bit either. Like tempting fate, Palpatine getting arrogant enough to try literally creating life, an artificial "chosen one" as a backup in case Ben's a dissapointment, but the Force interceding and having turned Rey into its own vessel against Ben/Palpatine once she's 19 or whatever she was in TFA, same age as Luke in ANH. She's "chosen", but in a different way to Anakin, more of a course-correction of Palpatine's meddling in the natural order than born of the Force naturally.

 

[BatLobster]

That being said, Rey playing into Palpatine's plans wouldn't surprise me one bit either. Like tempting fate, Palpatine getting arrogant enough to try literally creating life, an artificial "chosen one" as a backup in case Ben's a dissapointment, but the Force interceding and having turned Rey into its own vessel against Ben/Palpatine once she's 19 or whatever she was in TFA, same age as Luke in ANH. She's "chosen", but in a different way to Anakin, more of a course-correction of Palpatine's meddling in the natural order than born of the Force naturally.

If this is the case or something like it, it even still honors the idea that Anakin fulfilled the prophecy and brought balance. Balance just wasn't immediately restored, but it would mean that events that led to the true "capital B" balance were set in motion by Anakin.

It's a biiit wonky, but there was really no way to continue the saga without changing what we understood the prophecy to have meant.

Plus we still don't know if Anakin will actually factor into TROS somehow either.

 

[Mandon Knight]

I didn't 'hate on' TLJ, there are aspects I like, some I question greatly, but boy am I glad JJ is back, plain and simple.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I didn't 'hate on' TLJ, there are aspects I like, some I question greatly, but boy am I glad JJ is back, plain and simple.

Agreed. I like the last Jedi. I love some things about the last jedi, and disagree somewhat with other stuff, but JJ being back is just incredible news. As someone who loves force awakens, I can't even begin to describe how excited I am for TROS

 

[Frodo]

I tend not to buy that Palpatine was always part of the plan for Episode 9 given that the intent for these new series of films was to give the director/writers more creative freedom to take the episodes in the direction they did with the final approval coming from Kennedy.

I just doubt that Kennedy and Lucasfilm would have insisted on putting Palpatine in 9 even if other filmmakers they wanted to work with felt it would hinder their visions. I think Lucasfilm was a bit more flexible in terms of allowing their writer directors to take the story in a different direction, provided that Lucasfilm approved of it.

Now, I do believe that it was always part of JJ's plan or idea when he developed TFA ,and had he done episode 8 and 9 straight through, that's where I think it would have gone anyway. I can totally believe that he had always had in mind the idea to tie Palpatine in somehow.

I can believe the idea or concept of Palpatine returning has been around since before TFA and during the making of TFA. There was early concept are of Palpatine's throne underwater and of an Anakin /Vader force ghost so they weren't opposed to entertaining the idea of returning to those characters. At the same time, there were probably alot of ideas kicking around during development that weren't used or may be used in the future.

But I'm skeptical we would have seen the return of Palpatine in any form had Johnson done 9 ,nor if Trevorrow had done 9, or if JJ hadn't returned. I even doubt that Lucas himself would have brought back Palpatine himself had he made 7-9.


But I'm skeptical its always been in the cards no matter who would have written and directed Episode 9.

 

[sueb1863]

Agree about TLJ. Didn't hate it but parts could have been a lot better. Finn, Poe and Rose were all completely wasted. Poe basically just sat around during the last half of the movie. Snoke and Phasma proved ultimately pointless. We'll see if Snoke figures into IX in any way but Phasma is done and turned out to be nothing but a cool suit of armor.

Looking forward oto IX but can't help thinking that we're going to be getting stuff that should have been in TLJ.

 

[X Knight]

Plot Twist!!

Palpatine has been BB8 all along.

What a Twist!!

 

[Reaver027]

The trailer did not do what it needed to do for me. It did not hype me at all. The last few seconds was the best the trailer had to offer. Still interested in the movie to see how it ends but to be honest until just now i was not even thinking about Star Wars at all.

 

[BatLobster]

I tend not to buy that Palpatine was always part of the plan for Episode 9 given that the intent for these new series of films was to give the director/writers more creative freedom to take the episodes in the direction they did with the final approval coming from Kennedy.

I just doubt that Kennedy and Lucasfilm would have insisted on putting Palpatine in 9 even if other filmmakers they wanted to work with felt it would hinder their visions. I think Lucasfilm was a bit more flexible in terms of allowing their writer directors to take the story in a different direction, provided that Lucasfilm approved of it.

Now, I do believe that it was always part of JJ's plan or idea when he developed TFA ,and had he done episode 8 and 9 straight through, that's where I think it would have gone anyway. I can totally believe that he had always had in mind the idea to tie Palpatine in somehow.

I can believe the idea or concept of Palpatine returning has been around since before TFA and during the making of TFA. There was early concept are of Palpatine's throne underwater and of an Anakin /Vader force ghost so they weren't opposed to entertaining the idea of returning to those characters. At the same time, there were probably alot of ideas kicking around during development that weren't used or may be used in the future.

But I'm skeptical we would have seen the return of Palpatine in any form had Johnson done 9 ,nor if Trevorrow had done 9, or if JJ hadn't returned. I even doubt that Lucas himself would have brought back Palpatine himself had he made 7-9.


But I'm skeptical its always been in the cards no matter who would have written and directed Episode 9.

I actually disagree. While obviously I can't conclusively prove it, I tend to think this is more likely part of Lucas' original concept. The early version of Episode VII you reference that featured the under water throne room was part of the Arndt script which was more directly based on Lucas' treatments. And as I've said, the original concept for the sequel trilogy from way back was that it was going to deal with the Emperor. This was before Lucas decided to tie up all the loose ends with Return of the Jedi. But dealing with the "real evil behind everything" was part of the very loose framework that we've heard George had in mind for the sequel trilogy based on quotes here and there over the years. And we know how much George has liked to repurpose older ideas and concepts when making these films. Dude took 14 pages of yellow pad notes and stretched it into a decades-spanning mythology.

I do agree that it's possible the story could've evolved in a direction where maybe they wouldn't have done it, because they gave themselves that flexibility, but I think it just makes a lot of sense to save him for the final act. I really, really don't think it's just a lucky coincidence that Rian was given the green light to kill Snoke. In fact I'd be shocked if he wasn't read in on some some bigger ideas by the story group, like Palpatine's potential return. Even if they hadn't landed on how or if that would happen, he surely had to be aware that was a card that had a certain likelihood of being played and that Snoke was not necessarily intended to be the final big bad of this trilogy. Btw, here's a quote from JJ in 2015, before TFA was even released:

Rian has asked for a couple of things here and there that he needs for his story. He is an incredibly accomplished filmmaker and an incredibly strong writer. So the story he told took what we were doing and went in the direction that he felt was best but that is very much in line with what we were thinking as well. But you’re right—that will be his movie; he’s going to do it in the way he sees fit. He’s neither asking for nor does he need me to oversee the process.
J.J. Abrams, Star Wars Superfan, on Directing The Force Awakens (great interview btw)

So at very worst, even if Rian was kept in the dark about bigger plans (which I have a very hard time believing), according to JJ, his choices were very much in line with where they saw things going. I know this runs counter to the popular narrative that these two filmmakers are at total creative odds with one another and mortal enemies, but that's a narrative I've always rejected and IMO seems more nonsensical than ever.

 

[Mandon Knight]

Plot Twist!!

Palpatine has been BB8 all along.

What a Twist!!

X Knight, do you mind if I 'copy' your avvy, that's a thing of beauty

 

[Deck Rickard]

I didn't 'hate on' TLJ, there are aspects I like, some I question greatly, but boy am I glad JJ is back, plain and simple.

Yeah, I liked a lot of the stuff in it but then there were just aspects about it that bugged me. But I feel the greater problem has been with this trilogy as a whole; we’re two movies in and I feel like we still don’t really know how all of this was set up. Who exactly are the First Order? How did they come about? Are they mostly just remnants of the Empire or are they young fanatics who have lionized this extinct evil regime? Where did Snoke come from? How did he come in contact with Kylo Ren? I guess maybe it was through that “force Skype” thing they do in TLJ, but I’m not sure. And what exactly is the relationship between the New Republic and the Resistance? Does the NP have any actual power, or does the FO truly rule the galaxy?

I suppose you could say the same thing about the original trilogy; we’re given next to no backstory on the Empire or Palpatine himself (I don’t even think his name is used). In fact, I think the only reason I knew his backstory was because of the prologue in the novelization of ANH (also the first and only place the term “Sith” was used before the prequels, I believe). Yet despite all that, the films felt more complete to me. Maybe it’s because I was able to watch them all in succession because almost all of them were released before I was born. But I think even if I had been able to see them with multi-year gaps in between, I wouldn’t feel like there’s this massive gap in the story. Like, at the end of TESB, you find out Vader is Luke’s father. Shocking for sure, but it’s also obviously something that’s going to be followed up on. At the end of TLJ, Snoke is killed and it’s like, “Ummm... okay? What now? Oh, I guess Kylo is the big bad.” I don’t know. I don’t want to crap on these new films too much because I like the new characters and they’re a BILLION times better than those horrid prequels. But I also feel like they’re a bit of a mess in terms of storytelling.