The Flash The Flash General Discussion and Speculation Thread - Part 5

[Tempest]

So?

This show takes influence from every era of The Flash including the one where Lisa was dead for years. No just the new 52.

I guess I misread the Wiki. I thought it said she's been dead since she died. I thought that was a little strange since hardly anyone stays dead.

 

[famicommander]

So?

This show takes influence from every era of The Flash including the one where Lisa was dead for years. No just the new 52.

There is a 0.0% chance they kill off Golden Glider before Mirror Master is introduced.

 

[king666]

If I could choose, I'd "kill" her and turn her into New 52 Golden Glider.

 

[DrCosmic]

I'm not saying that what the team is doing is correct. It's not legal, and it's not entirely fair to the metas. On the other hand, the government (not all of the government, but some of it) knows that the metas are being held at S.T.A.R. Labs, and don't seem to care. That's not a justification. What my point is, is that the government is not necessarily going to help the metas. The justice system only works when the government is working with it, not against it. I don't think the metas would get fair treatment from the government. I think they would be shuttled off to a secret facility for 'testing', and then buried in a nameless grave once their usefulness ran out.

Barry and his team have to weigh the needs of their prisoners against what is safest and best for the metas potential victims. Not enviable, but that's the weird position that they're in.

I do agree the show should have addressed this better. Honestly, they wasted so much time on the romantic subplots, which could have been put aside until season two, instead of focusing on some of the more interesting and important details.

It's far past "not entirely fair." Having the first move in chess is "not entirely fair." Having someone else decide whether you go into a box or take your chances with the government is literally treating someone like they're not a human being.

 

[DrCosmic]

If I could choose, I'd "kill" her and turn her into New 52 Golden Glider.

Yeah, I think the Rogues only make sense with powers, but Johns wants them to have guns that Flash simply decides not to take away. *shrug*

I do love her and Cisco now though.

 

[Avenging Angel]

There is a 0.0% chance they kill off Golden Glider before Mirror Master is introduced.

I don't think Mirror Master has been announced yet even.

 

[Rowsdower!]

I love Eddie. I don't want him to be evil!

Not trying to be a smartass here, but... Why? I feel like he adds nothing to the show. I feel like it's partially due to the way he's written, but also it's the actor himself. I feel like he's just sort of... There. If Barry really wants to defeat the Reverse Flash, he should just kill Eddie so Eobard will cease to exist, lol (I'm not seriously suggesting he does that, though I could see Cold or another morally gray/evil character doing it).

 

[Tempest]

It's far past "not entirely fair." Having the first move in chess is "not entirely fair." Having someone else decide whether you go into a box or take your chances with the government is literally treating someone like they're not a human being.

Ok, just stop. They were not being treated like they weren't human. They were being treated like criminals who are dangerous and we don't know what to do with them. They were fed, housed, kept clean, and were not tortured. They had it ok. Particularly since they themselves could have given two ****s about any of the people that they've robbed or killed.

 

[HighFivingMF]

Yeah, I think the Rogues only make sense with powers, but Johns wants them to have guns that Flash simply decides not to take away. *shrug*

I do love her and Cisco now though.

They had powers for like 3% of their existence. They've worked fine before and since.

And Flash did take their guns in their second appearance, the only time he was in a position to do so.

 

[Headliner]

Oh my.....Oh my............

Eddie is going to be the one who frees Eobard from metahuman prison!

 

[antsman41]

This show. wow...

Ring Suit & Firestorm/"Arrow"/Flash fight against Reverse Flash was so epic.

 

[Scarecrow_King]

Good episode. Can't wait for the finale. I hope we see some real time travel shenanigans.

 

[The Shape]

That costume ring, tho.

 

[king666]

Grant Gustin is a pretty good actor. He just keeps getting better.

 

[king666]

Yeah, I think the Rogues only make sense with powers, but Johns wants them to have guns that Flash simply decides not to take away. *shrug*

I do love her and Cisco now though.

Tbh I dig the **** out of the ice and fire guns.

I hate Lisa's gun

 

[DrCosmic]

Ok, just stop. They were not being treated like they weren't human. They were being treated like criminals who are dangerous and we don't know what to do with them. They were fed, housed, kept clean, and were not tortured. They had it ok. Particularly since they themselves could have given two ****s about any of the people that they've robbed or killed.

The thing is people, even criminals, have rights. It's animals who we can do whatever we with to as long as they are fed, housed, cleaned and not tortured. When we deny those rights and simply care for them, we're actually treating them like animals, or children, if we're being generous. When we reach for justifications (They didn't care, so we don't have to care about them!), not only do our assumptions not hold up, but we literally become uncaring criminals - exactly what we say we don't like - in the process. Yikes.

It doesn't have to be a big deal. Oliver has had hypocricy just as bad. Everything with Malcolm this season has been positively mental. We pointed and laughed and moved on to the parts of the show we like. What's throwing me is that we're not pointing and laughing here. We're like "No, denying human rights is the heroic thing to do!" I can't get down with that.

Regardless, I'm really glad the show addressed it, and I think by lampshading: hey, this is wrong and totally unacceptable, and showing the negative consequences: the girl who went in just trying to run away with her boyfriend is now a rage-fueled killer, and of course, now you've turned all the criminals into a team that work together. I give them big kudos for that.

They had powers for like 3% of their existence. They've worked fine before and since.

And Flash did take their guns in their second appearance, the only time he was in a position to do so.

I think part of the weakness with the Flash as a show is that he always has an opportunity. Even people with powers, he found Weather Wizard and then he put him in jail before Mardon even knew what was going on. Flash was distracted during his first meeting with Cold. After that though? Meh. We've also established he has an ability to search the city. All these things we kinda overlook, but it bears mentioning when you want to add even more suspension of disbelief about Flash not using his powers, or using them inconsistently. Now, this suspension of disbelief definitely happened in comics, but just as I expect more realistic detail in the depiction of people and objects between a comic book/cartoon and a live action tv show/film, I expect a different level of fidelity when it comes to the consistency of superhuman abilities. Especially because comics spread over 20 years, and the show is around 20 episodes.

Now, I may have missed the details in his deal with Snart, but is part of the deal how Flash won't just take their guns? If not... I'm not sure the Rogues can really be all that relevant, that is, without Flash choosing not to use his powers.

 

[DrCosmic]

Tbh I dig the **** out of the ice and fire guns.

I hate Lisa's gun

Lisa's gun is horrible, and someone should feel bad for coming up with it.

I don't know why they didn't do high tech boots or something. Because without them, "Golden Glider" makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Silver Surfer]

I'm glad Lana/Whitney er.... I mean Iris/Eddie are over....

 

[king666]

Lisa's gun is horrible, and someone should feel bad for coming up with it.

I don't know why they didn't do high tech boots or something. Because without them, "Golden Glider" makes absolutely no sense.

I honestly dig the new 52 approach for Golgen Glider and I hope they do something similar (Lisa in a coma, etc).

 

[Avenging Angel]

I'm glad Lana/Whitney er.... I mean Iris/Eddie are over....

Silly love triangle.

 

[Avenging Angel]

Lisa's gun is horrible, and someone should feel bad for coming up with it.

I don't know why they didn't do high tech boots or something. Because without them, "Golden Glider" makes absolutely no sense.

How did Cisco know to call her "Golden Glider"? Their scenes together were still funny.

 

[Avenging Angel]

What I want eventually for Season 2 or beyond, whenever the show finds its feet is this to happen.

 

[Quinnsanity]

The thing is people, even criminals, have rights. It's animals who we can do whatever we with to as long as they are fed, housed, cleaned and not tortured. When we deny those rights and simply care for them, we're actually treating them like animals, or children, if we're being generous. When we reach for justifications (They didn't care, so we don't have to care about them!), not only do our assumptions not hold up, but we literally become uncaring criminals - exactly what we say we don't like - in the process. Yikes.

It doesn't have to be a big deal. Oliver has had hypocricy just as bad. Everything with Malcolm this season has been positively mental. We pointed and laughed and moved on to the parts of the show we like. What's throwing me is that we're not pointing and laughing here. We're like "No, denying human rights is the heroic thing to do!" I can't get down with that.

Regardless, I'm really glad the show addressed it, and I think by lampshading: hey, this is wrong and totally unacceptable, and showing the negative consequences: the girl who went in just trying to run away with her boyfriend is now a rage-fueled killer, and of course, now you've turned all the criminals into a team that work together. I give them big kudos for that.

I agree with all of this in the real world, but we're not talking about the real world. We're talking about a world in which the jails are completely ill-equipped to deal with this sort of criminal. They'd all just escape immediately, and when they did they'd hurt people. Granted, it's not perfect, but there are literally two options: wrongfully imprison these criminals, or hand them over to the proper authorities and watch them escape and likely hurt and kill far more people. Which sounds better? I'd rather wrongfully imprison a few people than kill and hurt and risk thousands of others. It's a no-brainer answer to an unrealistic question. It's something I don't think the comics touch on enough, yea, it's all well and good to let the law handle these people, but the Arkham-style revolving door prisons hurt and kill a lot more innocent people than a tighter alternative (like the pipeline) would. That blood is on the hands of the hero, because ultimately they're the only one who can do anything about these criminals and they made the active decision not to. They have to make a call, and if I were put in the same position of defending the innocent or wrongfully imprisoning the guilty, I know which I would take. It's not close to morally perfect, it's making the best of a bad situation. Frankly, I could care less if the ACLU would approve when so many lives are at stake. Normal people can't defend themselves against these types of criminals. There isn't another way. If you have a realistic alternative then let's hear it.

 

[Astro13Zombie]

What I want eventually for Season 2 or beyond, whenever the show finds its feet is this to happen.

 

[DrCosmic]

I agree with all of this in the real world, but we're not talking about the real world. We're talking about a world in which the jails are completely ill-equipped to deal with this sort of criminal. They'd all just escape immediately, and when they did they'd hurt people. Granted, it's not perfect, but there are literally two options: wrongfully imprison these criminals, or hand them over to the proper authorities and watch them escape and likely hurt and kill far more people. Which sounds better? I'd rather wrongfully imprison a few people than kill and hurt and risk thousands of others. It's a no-brainer answer to an unrealistic question. It's something I don't think the comics touch on enough, yea, it's all well and good to let the law handle these people, but the Arkham-style revolving door prisons hurt and kill a lot more innocent people than a tighter alternative (like the pipeline) would. That blood is on the hands of the hero, because ultimately they're the only one who can do anything about these criminals and they made the active decision not to. They have to make a call, and if I were put in the same position of defending the innocent or wrongfully imprisoning the guilty, I know which I would take. It's not close to morally perfect, it's making the best of a bad situation. Frankly, I could care less if the ACLU would approve when so many lives are at stake. Normal people can't defend themselves against these types of criminals. There isn't another way. If you have a realistic alternative then let's hear it.

Well, someone else came up with another suggestion already: turn them over to ARGUS, and in the end, that's what they chose to do when their prison was compromised. If they'd had ARGUS help in doing so those guys would still be captured. I pointed out that they could contract their prison and containment to the government, which, incidentally, is how prisons work nowadays. It would also explain their funding, thus making the story even stronger. That also would allow them to give these humans human rights without having to let them go. I'm sure there are more, especially since containing most of the characters (airtight, don't let them see out) is pretty easy. As is the characters are hypocrites because the show writers didn't think through their set up at the beginning, they counted on everyone to think of these humans as non humans because they're criminals/supervillains/etc. But then it actually developed some. If they'd all been one dimensional Kyle Nimbuses already condemned for his crimes, no one would have noticed, but once you show them as humans, all of a sudden, the inhumanity of the prison becomes more and more relevant.

It's not just 'imperfect' it is absolute hypocricy, just like Oliver's "I only have two bad options" from the Malcom/Thea storyline earlier this season. I guess people are just hypocrites on this issue. It's really sad and scary to hear the same reasoning used by villains from dystopian fiction (1984 to the Hunger Games) used by superhero fans.

I could theorize why but I'm pretty sure it goes back to the idea that "The Hero is the only one who can do anything about it" which is crazy. Once they're subdued ANYONE can do anything. The state Gotham is in has all the power to deal with Arkham as they see fit. Batman is not the only person who can kill the Joker, that's crazy. Arkham is not Batman's responsibility. It's the people's and he could do much more for it as Bruce Wayne rallying the city than he could putting bullets in people's heads. Hell, Arkham is a private prison at this point, right? If Bruce Wayne is "responsible" it's because he hasn't bought it and fixed it yet.

Flash is the same way. He's got options. He's THE FLASH. He's got Star Labs and all their tech behind him. They whipped up an Anti-Grodd helmet in an hour. He doesn't have an excuse to be a kidnapper, besides "the writers didn't think it through." Sure the Cops can't catch these guys, that's real, and that's why he's morally justified (albeit "imperfect") for making himself law enforcement, but the United States Government can't come up with an airtight box? Nah, son. Again, I really don't know why we're not pointing and laughing at this hypocricy. I guess we imagine that people who have endless options only have two. Still don't know why that is but, eh, life.