The Flash The flash season 2 episode 18

I'm hoping there's some sort of trick the team is pulling by giving Zoom Barry's speed, but if they did it for real then it's the dumbest idea ever.

I was sitting there the whole time, waiting for the double-cross, but it never came. A room full of geniuses and that was their "plan?" :loco:

There has to be more to this. There just has to be.
 
Is it possible that something about the helmet turns people evil? There is obviously something supernatural at play here ("the darkness"), and it almost feels to me like they're trying to redeem Hunter (his decision not to kill Barry being the "first step" toward his "rehabilitation").
 
That's how Hunter said it.

I thought he said it was a time remnant, which could easily be a future self left in the time line somewhere.

Like if Barry at the start of Season 2 travelled back to Season 1 when Pied Piper was wreaking havoc and found his later self from the "Flash Back" episode nearer the end of Season 2 who travelled also back to Season 1 to get Wells/Thawne to teach him how to go faster. That would be a time remnant wouldn't it?
 
How can Eobard Thawne create a speed mirage, but Hunter claims he's not fast enough to do that? That sounds like a logic gap.
 
Zoom mentioned that he isn't fast enough to create a speed mirage. Isn't he supposedly faster than Reverse-Flash, who was able to create speed mirages?

He didn't say he wasn't fast enough to create a speed mirage, he said he wasn't fast enough to use a speed mirage to be on two Earth's doing entirely different things at the same time, every time we've seen a speedster use a speed mirage so far they haven't gone very far from it and their mirage hasn't had to do anything fancy.
 
Oh, yeah, that's right. Duh.

Anyway, hopefully they stop making Barry look like a sucker. That probably annoyed me the most about this episode.
 
I thought that they would do something like the end of Superman 2 where they trick Zoom into thinking he's taken Barry's speed, but instead it kills Zoom's speed completely. But then that probably would've been the end of the Zoom storyline. That should've maybe been saved for the finale with Barry offering to make the trade of his speed for Wally. Then with Zolomon reduced to being normal, Caitlin could've slugged him one for deceiving everyone and making her fall for him.

Shouldn't they have come up with a plan before Barry offered up his speed as a trade? Or Caitlin could've synthesised another version of Velocity which was unstable, making Zoom disintegrate like Trajectory.
 
Barry must be the world's biggest frigging idiot, opening the breach between Earths One and Two even though Zoom was contained on Two and he was warned against it. Now Zoom can rampage wherever he pleases.

Not that I disagree he's made mistakes. . . but they *explained this*. Zoom was already free to rampage all he wanted on one planet, and Barry was *not* willing to write off an entire planet.
 
Zoom mentioned that he isn't fast enough to create a speed mirage. Isn't he supposedly faster than Reverse-Flash, who was able to create speed mirages?
he meant that a speed mirage is doable to be pesent on tow earth at once.

it's not possible to be present on two earths at one withthat ability. it's an after image effect and nothing more. he needed a double with is what a "time Remanent" is. it's being an echo in the time stream the is sentient enough to act on it's own free will .

detail's here from the reverse flash returns episode.

The show's Time Travel logic is stretched further than ever before to explain how a "temporal echo" of Eobard Thawne can still exist after his family tree was cut short. Nora's death being a fixed point in time is also a brand new supposition that could have saved everyone a lot of trouble last season. It does however explain how Future! Barry was still able to exist despite his entire timeline being changed and why he warned his other self not to save Nora.

This all took place in the reverse flash returns when earth 2 doctor wells explained this



Not to mention, this episode freely makes use of both the Alternate Timeline and Stable Time Loop theory's. Despite being a relic from an erased timeline, Eobard's experiences in this episode are somehow part of a Stable Time Loop that sets into motion the events that lead to his timeline being erased in the first place.


How can Eobard Thawne create a speed mirage, but Hunter claims he's not fast enough to do that? That sounds like a logic gap.
it's not a gap. Zoom didn't say he can't do that. he just meant it's not thesable to do it on two different earths as one person / entity all at once .

speed force on on two earths at once is not doable on between earths with just him acting as two people, it's isn't possible and eobard said that it wasn't all mirage images back then.

there was a hologram made eobard in that cell cisco created for the reverse flash, which is why when Cisco investigated the image of reverse flash showed up in the cell. there was also tech involved.

and even though I'm saying this (this isn't meant to be rude or insulting) >
People need to keep in mind that a speed mirage is nothing more then an after image. it's not a speedster multiplying him/her self.

A speed mirage can't act on their own free will/ accord as separate human being.

It's just used to mess with person the speedster's are fighting perception of where they are using speed.
 
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Here's the thing, reverse flash used the tachyon device because his speed force was unstable, he wasn't using it to get him to go faster.

when he faced flash he never wore the device and was always faster, probably faster than zoom.

With barry they made it seem that by wearing the tachyon device he's only gaining temporary increased speed and once he takes it off he's back to his normal speed.

If thats the case then he really isn't increasing his speed.

When caitlin measured there speed she said zoom and reverse flash were moving much faster than barry, reverse flash never wore the device and was always much faster.

if barry can only get faster by wearing the device then that would mean naturally zoom and reverse flash, more so reverse flash are way faster than barry....i assumed barry would have to keep wearing the device and over time it would increase his speed force so that once he takes it off he has gotten faster and the increase is permanent....it was never clear as to what tachyon enhancement would do.:huh:
 
detail's here from the reverse flash returns episode.

The show's Time Travel logic is stretched further than ever before to explain how a "temporal echo" of Eobard Thawne can still exist after his family tree was cut short. Nora's death being a fixed point in time is also a brand new supposition that could have saved everyone a lot of trouble last season. It does however explain how Future! Barry was still able to exist despite his entire timeline being changed and why he warned his other self not to save Nora.

This all took place in the reverse flash returns when earth 2 doctor wells explained this

Thing is, that rule still works differently from what Jay/Hunter described.

In the case of Eobard Thawne, while his existence became impossible following Eddie's death (at which point he ceased to exist), the Eobard Thawne that was encountered in Season 2 was from an earlier point in time. Meaning, for that Eobard Thawne, Eddie hadn't killed himself yet.
 
Is it possible that something about the helmet turns people evil? There is obviously something supernatural at play here ("the darkness"), and it almost feels to me like they're trying to redeem Hunter (his decision not to kill Barry being the "first step" toward his "rehabilitation").

Maybe this Earth 2 had its war with Apokolips like in the recent comics; that could explain why Earth 2 Atlantis revealed its existence. If Hunter's face turns grey and craggy the next time his eyes change -- well, I thought he was posessed by a speed force wraith, or that he becomes one, but a depowered essence of Darkseid would be okay, if a little close to how Smallville did it.
 
So, here is what I thought of:
Fake Jay Garrick is a time remnant of Hunter Zolomon's Zoom, and what happens to him has zero effect on Zoom, except sucking his powers.
Fake Jay loved Caitlin, but Zoom barely met her.
Zoom suddenly had emotions for Caitlin, and stopped killing Barry because of what she said.
 
So, here is what I thought of:
Fake Jay Garrick is a time remnant of Hunter Zolomon's Zoom, and what happens to him has zero effect on Zoom, except sucking his powers.
Fake Jay loved Caitlin, but Zoom barely met her.
Zoom suddenly had emotions for Caitlin, and stopped killing Barry because of what she said.

Yeah, that struck me as odd, unless they explain that there's some sort of emotional link between the time remnant and Zoom it just seems like an oversite.
 
So, here is what I thought of:
Fake Jay Garrick is a time remnant of Hunter Zolomon's Zoom, and what happens to him has zero effect on Zoom, except sucking his powers.
Fake Jay loved Caitlin, but Zoom barely met her.
Zoom suddenly had emotions for Caitlin, and stopped killing Barry because of what she said.

IF Zoom is telling the truth, then I think we have to assume that Zoom only used the Time Remnant of himself in the hours before the Time Remnant's death. So, the majority of the time, Zoom was "Jay Garrick" and building a relationship with Caitlin and it was only when Zoom needed to be on Earth 1 and Earth 2 at the same time that he employed his Time Remnant to maintain the role of Jay Garrick on Earth 1. But, who knows?
 
Okay...I know it's been a week since last episode, and I'm just checking in right now...and the next episode is about to air in 30 minutes. I'm am super confused right now with the Zoom reveal.

I don't know where to begin. So many confusions...so what about Jay Garrick...but this face isn't Jay Garrick at all...it's Hunter Zolomon's face....he mentions his doppleganger...okay he was a serial killer...but wait who's Jay Garrick...not another Earth...Earth 3...Earth 4? Have we seen Jay Garrick at all?

He goes back in time to take younger versions of himself....when he was good? When he was known as The Flash? Convinces him of his plan...

I'm so lost now. He had copies or...versions of himself from different times...the one he killed...Jay Garrick...or just himself?

In the flashbacks that we saw of Jay Garrick fighting Zoom (episode 2) and another flashback of Harrison Wells (earth 2) and Jay Garrick's Flash (or was it Zoom??) having a conversation at Star Labs...all Zoom?

Heeeeeelp. Did Zoom pretend to be Jay Garrick/The Flash on Earth 2?

Or is the Jay Garrick version on this show evil...but it's actually Hunter Zolomon pretending to be him? And there's no Jay Garrick at all?

I'm going crazy here. If anyone can fill me in, thanks, I'd be grateful.
 
Thing is, that rule still works differently from what Jay/Hunter described.

In the case of Eobard Thawne, while his existence became impossible following Eddie's death (at which point he ceased to exist), the Eobard Thawne that was encountered in Season 2 was from an earlier point in time. Meaning, for that Eobard Thawne, Eddie hadn't killed himself yet.
yes this is true but that also due to the singularity being close thanks to fire which Ronnie was apart of when he was with stein .

if it was for them it wouldn't have happened cause most of all that would have been erased and the current time/history wouldn't have happened and the present would be there as it was.


So, here is what I thought of:
Fake Jay Garrick is a time remnant of Hunter Zolomon's Zoom, and what happens to him has zero effect on Zoom, except sucking his powers.
Fake Jay loved Caitlin, but Zoom barely met her.
Zoom suddenly had emotions for Caitlin, and stopped killing Barry because of what she said.

Yeah, that struck me as odd, unless they explain that there's some sort of emotional link between the time remnant and Zoom it just seems like an oversite.

I so happy you two caught that every time cailtlin saying something of late atleast since they close the breach's it conflicts. it's weird what the writers have her sas and they just go along with it still.


IF Zoom is telling the truth, then I think we have to assume that Zoom only used the Time Remnant of himself in the hours before the Time Remnant's death. So, the majority of the time, Zoom was "Jay Garrick" and building a relationship with Caitlin and it was only when Zoom needed to be on Earth 1 and Earth 2 at the same time that he employed his Time Remnant to maintain the role of Jay Garrick on Earth 1. But, who knows?



The writers/show runners said that zoom wasn't telling the whole truth even then ether to the news out lets . Just half of it.

and I think he was using the time Remanent from the jump or from the point when he had Caitlin meet him in the park but alot of what she's said from velocity 6 to 9 & "9" curing and then telling her telling Barry that it didn't cure him has been so flip flopping I don't think she knows what she's saying anymore when it come to velocity 9 or who she knew as Jay. this the writers fault there, with her flip Flopping words.

which is it writers/show runners ?


Did it cure Zoom why did Caitlin tell barry it didn't cure zoom/jay but helped to still kill him, befor zoom came back?


this kinda happened with Cisco with the King shark returns thing/episode too. and befor that patty told them Barry and Cisco) that killer shark was her first collar after earth 2 Dr. Wells saved barry. when a cop say's their "collar" it means capture/ arrest. why Cisco said king shark was dead made no sense.


It seem's the writers have trouble keeping continuity straight on their own show and seeing they are past 12 seasons and it should hard to look back with show like this since it's in the same season, it really doesn't make sense
for mistake to happen like continuity wise.
 

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