The Flash The flash season 2 episode 18

So confused.

So, Hunter Zolomon was a psychopathic serial killer who received super speed when the particle accelerator exploded on Earth 2. He then decides to create a super heroic persona, The Flash, largely modelled on his father's uniform / attire. For a couple of years, he's a hero. Then he also creates a super villainous persona, Zoom, and stages a bunch of fights on Earth 2 using speed mirages or something else. For ... reasons. I guess just because he's gosh darn crazy.

Somewhere in there, Hunter becomes obsessed with getting even faster (even though he's already the fastest person on Earth 2). Hunter then invents Velocity 1 to 6 (or whatever version they got up to on Earth 2). Hunter becomes addicted to Velocity, with the side effect that it starts to kill him.

Then Hunter learns of Earth 1. Hunter than decides that the way to fix / cure his addiction to Velocity is to steal Barry's speed force. But, he first determines that he needs to ensure that Barry has reached his full potential before stealing the speed force. Hence the whole complicated plot with Jay Garrick being Barry's new mentor and Zoom sending various meta humans to Earth 1 to kill Barry.

As a final step in his plan, Hunter travels back in time and convinces an earlier version of himself to travel to the future on Earth 1, assume the Jay Garrick identity and be killed by Zoom.

All leading to now, with Hunter having stolen Barry's speed and kidnapped Caitlin, because the psychopathic serial killer really did care for Caitlin. For ... reasons. And now Hunter will happily retire to Earth 2 with his unwilling bride and ... do evil stuff. Evil stuff that involves a man in an iron mask who has white skin and dark blonde hair very similar to Hunter himself.

Unless there really was a super heroic Jay Garrick on another Earth and Zoom somehow captured him, stole his speed and then imprisoned him in an iron mask. Once again, for ... reasons.

Also, Team Flash are stupid. Really, really stupid. They had no plan for what would happen when the breach was reopened (or was Barry really just going to run through and battle Zoom by himself) and once Zoom captured Wally no-one though to close the breach so he couldn't get back to Earth 2 and no-one could be bothered to remember that Barry was now faster than Zoom and therefore presumably capable of rescuing Wally, taking him to the time vault where everyone else would be safely waiting, and then fighting and defeating Zoom (and immediately thereafter imprisoning him, instead of standing ahead to have a chat about their origin stories and the weather like Barry had done following his earlier victory).

I wonder whether Barry's loss of speed force will last any longer than his broken back.

EDIT: Incredibly awkward placement of Iris and Caitlin's girl talk. They've been doing so well with Barry and Iris as friends / siblings, do they really need to force a romance at this stage? And is The Flash going to embrace a new trope wherein Caitlin is kidnapped by every villain? First Grods, now Zoom and then who knows?

EDIT: Purely superficial and exploitative, but Grant Gustin really seems to be filling out the lower half of his Flash costume these days: http://www.accesshollywood.com/galleries/flash-season-2-episode-18-sneak-peek-pics-versus-zoom/#1




yeah it was very6 convoluted cause of two reasons the fact that prior to finding out about earth one he made up two persona's jay and zoom trick all of earth and then

went and traveled in time for the time remanent ashe called it.

and I was right about the "time Remanent" being an echo inthe time stream

detail's here from the reverse flash returns episode.

The show's Time Travel logic is stretched further than ever before to explain how a "temporal echo" of Eobard Thawne can still exist after his family tree was cut short. Nora's death being a fixed point in time is also a brand new supposition that could have saved everyone a lot of trouble last season. It does however explain how Future! Barry was still able to exist despite his entire timeline being changed and why he warned his other self not to save Nora.



Not to mention, this episode freely makes use of both the Alternate Timeline
and
Stable Time Looptheory's. Despite being a relic from an erased timeline, Eobard's experiences in this episode are somehow part of a Stable Time Loop that sets into motion the events that lead to his timeline being erased in the first place.


In conclusion. since so many others were confused by them adding this plot, the writers would have been better off not using time travel in the case of zoom's involvement. and his accomplice self. and they should have stayed to the alternate reality doppelganger deal instead.





now Zoom stated he went back into time picked up his past self ( the latter which is what he calls a time Remanent) which was fallowing up on what set up in the episode of the reverse flash returns with eobard when earth dr. wells explained what a time remanent is.

But for lot of people of the viewer audience that went over their head's. but this has shown in show's like continuum and terminator the sarah Conner chronicles. it just wasn't really named in continuum .





In conclusion. since so many others were confused by them adding this plot the writers would have been better off not using time travel in the case of zoom and his accomplice self. and should have stayed to the alternate reality doppelganger deal
Now the thing that becomes shifty here , as I said before is if his past shelf was killed then his present day self shouldn't exist his self any more.

cause he killed him self in the past. but that has to do with another theory, in the time travel debate. which has to deal with alternate reality's time lines/ past history being different cause of the chose's made by that doppelganger.




Some shows would certainly benefit from shorter seasons. It is well known most Showrunners and writers don't like doing 20 plus episode season shows because they find it a struggle to maintain story momentum over such a large amount of episodes.


actually the real problem isn't length. the problem in actuality is 1)clear direction of where they want to go plot wise with their story.

2)and they may be adding in too many plots that don't always connect and /or aren't fleshed out from the start.

which is why I'm worried about what will happen with the man in the iron mask turning out to be earth 2 wally cause there's alot they will have to explain there if they say it's earth Wally 2.

they would have done a better service if the first trip to earth 2 was more then a 48 hour/ 2 days trip. and they added those versions of the characters back then instead of weird rush thing and it looks like from that stand point "oh it looks like we left some characters out and we might have fix that slight mistake."

those are the thing's/problem at play kind like the whole iron heights meta human prison ward that was never used bu7t overly mentioned this season.
 
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Right now i am inclined to drop all DC shows from my schedule and watch them once all episodes of a season are released on either Netflix or Amazon.
I think that could increase my enjoyment of these shows. Will take an extra year to get the new episodes but that is a rather small price to pay.
 
People keep saying that Hunter's father was named Jay. But I heard it as James. And that Screen Rant article also lists it is that. I went and listened again and it does sound like James rather than Jay.

Also, has anyone noticed that Zoom's mouth holes on his mask resemble the mask he was forced to wear over his mouth when he was about to be executed?
 
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Hunter's face was extremely disconcerting when he shot up with Barry's speed force. Yikes.
 





Zoom-header_1.jpg
SPOILER WARNING: This article contains major spoilers for "Versus Zoom," the latest episode of "The Flash."


"The Flash" has made Jay Garrick -- the original Scarlet Speedster -- bad to the bone. At least, that's how "Versus Zoom" made it look when the episode revealed Jay Garrick/Hunter Zolomon's history as a serial killer on Earth-2. However, according to executive producer Greg Berlanti, the show "would never make him a baddie."
Greg Berlanti ✔‎@GBerlanti

For those inquiring, we love Jay Garrick and would never make him a baddie. No reinvention. Keep watching :) love that you're asking q's.
4:21 PM - 20 Apr 2016



RELATED: "The Flash" Deals with Losing His Speed in New Trailer for "Back to Normal"
Berlanti's comment follows some backlash on social media, particularly from comics writer Mark Waid, who wrote "The Flash" for years for DC Comics and has previously expressed his enthusiasm for the TV series. On Twitter, Waid express his belief that the Jay Garrick/Hunter Zolomon twist appeared to betray the 75-year legacy of the comic book character.


Mark Waid ✔‎@MarkWaid

Wow. Wow. Wow. For the first time, #TheFlash faceplanted an episode/reveal, betrayed all good will. Sorry I watched.#heartbroken
9:04 PM - 19 Apr 2016


Mark Waid ✔‎@MarkWaid

My complaint is bigger than plot. It's about pissing on legacy. Unless there's some Jay fix, I'm out. #TheFlash
However, following Berlanti's Jay Garrick-related tease, Waid amended his earlier statements, Tweeting,


Mark Waid ✔‎@MarkWaid

4:48 PM - 20 Apr 2016



Mark Waid ✔‎@MarkWaid

Again, sorry I blew my stack if I was wrong about the reveal that E2 Flash was secretly a villain. That felt betraying. Glad there's more2it​
5:28 PM - 20 Apr 2016


As for Jay Garrick, it appears his backstory -- and future in the DCTV universe -- may not be quite so straightforward as "Versus Zoom" led fans to believe. After all, Zoom has lied to Team Flash before; it shouldn't come as a huge shock if he's up to no good again.

Starring Grant Gustin, Carlos Valdes and Jesse L. Martin, "The Flash" airs Tuesdays at 8 pm EST on The CW.
Discuss this story in CBR's TV/Film forum. | 9 Comments


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The guy in the mask is most likely the "real" Jay Garrick. I wouldn't be surprised if they borrowed elements from Barry's own comic storyline (Barry apparently had a evil twin brother who became Cobalt Blue). Maybe Jay had a twin brother that he didn't bring up who actually became the real Flash of his world.

So if they went that route, then they could say that Hunter really did fight against an Earth 2 flash in the form of the real Jay Garrick but only that instead of Jay having traveled to this world, he was captured in their last encounter and Hunter assumed his identity.
 
The guy in the mask is most likely the "real" Jay Garrick. I wouldn't be surprised if they borrowed elements from Barry's own comic storyline (Barry apparently had a evil twin brother who became Cobalt Blue). Maybe Jay had a twin brother that he didn't bring up who actually became the real Flash of his world.

So if they went that route, then they could say that Hunter really did fight against an Earth 2 flash in the form of the real Jay Garrick but only that instead of Jay having traveled to this world, he was captured in their last encounter and Hunter assumed his identity.
yeah but cobalt blue was eddie thawne in the books . and weird twin of Barry.

jay's enemy was the rival who as we know took velocity 9 and took the helmet look to take on Jay. we'll just have see where this all leads.
 
The guy in the mask is most likely the "real" Jay Garrick. I wouldn't be surprised if they borrowed elements from Barry's own comic storyline (Barry apparently had a evil twin brother who became Cobalt Blue). Maybe Jay had a twin brother that he didn't bring up who actually became the real Flash of his world.

I could kind of see that, BUT Wells seems to have a pretty extensive database on Earth 2 information, including information about Hunter Zolomon, on his mini wrist computer thing.

Surely Team Flash would have asked Wells to pull up everything about Hunter Zolomon when they sought to take him down? The mini wrist computer thing had photos of Hunter Zolomon's parents (unless they were photos of E1's Hunter's parents). If it had that sort of information, it must have also had information about any siblings.

I could still see the man in the iron mask being the "real" Jay Garrick, although at this stage, I'd have to presume that he's from another Earth. Or, after taking Velocity, Hunter created an alternate personality (much like the scientist created Trajectory on E1) who was heroic (i.e. the opposite of Hunter) and that personality somehow created its own separate body. Or Hunter created the body (or stole it from another Earth) to force the Jay Garrick personality out of his body?

The fact that the producers are more than happy to have Hunter as an unreliable narrator, backed up by actually filming and showing the audience scenes of his (false) story, makes things even harder to determine.

EDIT: Another poster also mentioned that the Reverse Flash was visibly scared when E2 Flash's helmet came through the breach at the end of season 1. Reverse Flash could have been scared of Zoom (if he knew that Zoom and E2 Flash were one and the same) or the Reverse Flash's reaction is ... shaky "proof" of a heroic version of Jay Garrick as The Flash existing on some Earth at some point in time.
 
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EDIT: Another poster also mentioned that the Reverse Flash was visibly scared when E2 Flash's helmet came through the breach at the end of season 1. Reverse Flash could have been scared of Zoom (if he knew that Zoom and E2 Flash were one and the same) or the Reverse Flash's reaction is ... shaky "proof" of a heroic version of Jay Garrick as The Flash existing on some Earth at some point in time.
that was me. I said that eobard knew who that helmet belonged too that episode and avoided answering team flash/ the star labs team, just by saying that mean's it's time for me to go. she said thisto dr. stein.

he knew exactly who it belonged too. and when Barry traveled into the past to ask eobard how to go faster and changed piped piper's present, when he told barry while he had him hand cuffed to his chair in the time vault, that there are other flash's and speedsters that he met in the time stream and they all have habit of time traveling and ticking off the time wraiths cause they are all over doing it with trying change the past.
 
You would think that the producers would actually want to present an scenario where we have two (or more) speedsters working alongside each other since that's something that hasn't happened on this show.

The only things that I feel Zoom has over the RF is his look and voice, but take away Tony Todd's voice and the mask and you get a lesser villain than Tom's Eobard Thawne.

I feel like Season 2 should have really shook things up and such. It wouldn't have been a bad idea to actually see Caitlin travel down the dark side a bit after Ronnie's death and they should have made Cisco's whole arc of working with CCPD into a more permanent thing.

I also feel like Patty's and Henry's exits were so sloppy and lazily written.

Couldn't have said it better. The way Herny left just made him look like a dick to Barry and the way Patty left was really stupid. Also it fells like this season has had way more filter episodes. I still like the show don't get me wrong but season 1 was written way better had less filter and was just more consisted. Season 2 has had some great episodes but its lows are much lower then season 1s lows had. I really hope they can make season 3 more like season 1 in quilty. If season 3 drops off from season 2 as much has season 1 to 2 did then I am going to end up not watching the show any more.
 

I was about a hundred kinds of unhappy with how this episode treated the golden age Flash, so this is a huge relief to hear, hope this means we'll get to see a true teamup episode with Barry and the golden age Flash.
 
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Sorry for asking. But I still don't get it (as English is not my first language).
After Wally was safe (and with him Zoom's lever was gone) why did they still continue to give Zoom Barry's speed?
Barry was still faster at that point. Why not just hunt him down again?
Did I miss something and Zoom said sth about having another lever (i.e. the iron masked guy)?

Or maybe the plan is to give him so much speed that the same thing happens to him like it did to Trajectory? Did they hint at something like this?
 
Sorry for asking. But I still don't get it (as English is not my first language).
After Wally was safe (and with him Zoom's lever was gone) why did they still continue to give Zoom Barry's speed?
Barry was still faster at that point. Why not just hunt him down again?
Did I miss something and Zoom said sth about having another lever (i.e. the iron masked guy)?

Or maybe the plan is to give him so much speed that the same thing happens to him like it did to Trajectory? Did they hint at something like this?
Good questions.
 
There were just so many things that didn't make sense. Like how is Zoom able to travel through the Breaches, without a machine like they had at Star Labs, or someone like Vibe and Reverb opening them for him? And why, when Zoom escaped, didn't he immediately contact Cisco, telling him to touch that stupid helmet, to locate Zoom? No, let's just get dressed and go home.
 
I think there will be more explanation.

But anyways, I really disliked the whole talk with Zoom and seeing them really give him Barry's power, it wasn't clever at all.

And surprised by the come back of the romance with Iris.
There's been so many father's moment between Barry and Joe.
And Barry confused nearly called Wally his adoptive brother in episode 16.
 
I am guessing the flashback from episode 2 (zoom stealling Jay's speed) is actuallt true, and its hunter sacrificing his speed in order for his future self to get stronger

that, or the "lost speed because of velocity-6" IS true and he somehow recovers it later as zoom
I just assumed Zoom took his time remnant from before the Particle accelerator explosion, so he didn't have the Speed Force yet. To give him speed for their showdowns shot "Jay Garrick" up with v6. Hence the decaying cells, and no trace of the Speed Force.
 
Talk about a cluster F. I really think this episode should have had another glance over with the script and read through. It really felt like everyone in the cast just wanted to get through it.
 
I'm hoping there's some sort of trick the team is pulling by giving Zoom Barry's speed, but if they did it for real then it's the dumbest idea ever.

And i'm confused about who Hunter Solomon killed as Zoom; was it his past self that he went back in time and brought to the future...? Wouldn't that erase him...? Confused:
 
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Sorry for asking. But I still don't get it (as English is not my first language).
After Wally was safe (and with him Zoom's lever was gone) why did they still continue to give Zoom Barry's speed?
Barry was still faster at that point. Why not just hunt him down again?
Did I miss something and Zoom said sth about having another lever (i.e. the iron masked guy)?

Or maybe the plan is to give him so much speed that the same thing happens to him like it did to Trajectory? Did they hint at something like this?

Don't worry, none of us understood their reasoning in that scene either, easily the sloppiest conclusion to an episode this show has ever done.
 
And i'm confused about who Hunter Solomon killed as Zoom; was it his past self that he went back in time and brought to the future...? Wouldn't that erase him...? Confused:
Yeah, that was his past self.
And he was trapped in a time pocket or something like that, allowing it to happen.
 
How do we know it's a past self of Zolomon and not a future self?

Take Barry Allen, for example. When he went back in time to save his mother at the end of Season 1 and saw himself there warning him to not interfere, was that a past self or a future self? Or was the Barry Allen who travelled there a past self to that version of himself who had travelled there from the future, or a future self?

What if Season 1 Barry Allen were to have talked Barry Allen who rescued his younger self into sacrificing himself the way Zoom talked his other self? Would that really be a past self that would erase his present or future self? Or alternately, what if that Barry Allen who rescued his younger self talked Season 1 Barry into sacrificing himself? Would that be a past self?

So if something similar happened with Zolomon and another version of himself somewhere in the time stream, then would it really be a past self?
 
Zoom mentioned that he isn't fast enough to create a speed mirage. Isn't he supposedly faster than Reverse-Flash, who was able to create speed mirages?
 

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