The Flash The Flash season 2 episode 22 "Invincible"

[Spider-Aziz]

Has Zoom really let Caitlin go, or has he released her with her under his influence, or with something changed about her?

Is she merely hallucinating that she's seeing Zoom, or is he really appearing to remind her of how he can end her life anytime?

I guess this is the "wait and see" kind of scenario.

 

[Mikelus]

Fix arrow ? as far as see it katie is better off as the black siren on flash under Andrew Krisingberg's writing team. if she get's under MG again it'll the same again and he'll kill the black siren. so nope thanks.

I don't like MG, but you seem to forget that Berlanti is very involved with his shows:

Berlanti takes a hands-on approach to all of the shows in his stable, and over the years has assembled a trusted team to help him execute — Marc Guggenheim, Andrew Kreisberg and Ali Adler, among them — which DC Comics chief content officer Geoff Johns jokingly calls his “Justice League.”

“Honestly, I’m so reliant on others,” Berlanti says. “It’s the long-term relationships I’ve had that allow me to do multiple things, because you have a shorthand with these people.”

“I learned that I really rely on other writers — that I can break stories quickly, but I can’t write quickly,” he says. “I learned that it’s OK that I’m not great at everything, that there are a lot of things that I may never be as good at as some of the other people I hired. Don’t be threatened by that. Co-opt that. Be good at the stuff you’re good at, but also know what you’re not as strong at.”

So he focuses his time and energy on where he can make the most impact: developing stories, editing, casting.

http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/greg-berlanti-supergirl-the-flash-the-cw-cbs-1201499698/

And Supergirl was very mediocre too, with the usual forced love triangles, lame villains of the week, the Kryptonians were also dull as the big bad, and the way the producers and writers handle Superman was terrible. Instead of having him off planet for the whole finale, they made him return to then do nothing. You don't make Supergirl look good at the expense of Superman, that's just awful storytelling.

Berlanti's boss is Peter Roth, President and Chief Content Officer of the Warner Bros. Television Group. If Roth and the WBTV executives were not happy, they would have fired Guggenheim already, but unfortunately, they don't care about the characters like the fans do. So as long as the producers and writers are professional and productive enough, they will keep them, unless ratings go down too much, that could force WBTV to make some changes.

 

[metaphysician]

Thawne lives 135 years in the future. I doubt the Reverse Flash and Zoom have crossed paths.

Thawne recognized the helmet, and treated it as something he wanted no part of. He definitely had encountered either "Jay Garrick" or Zoom before, possibly during prior journeys into the past.

 

[metaphysician]

I assumed it had to do with Zoom opening a breach, and letting that frequency pulse get through, that was destroying Earth 2.

I *highly* doubt that, since it would basically make Flash and company the biggest supervillains on two worlds. It would be *epically* out-of-theme.

 

[Neno_Kos]

the show is getting worse and worse.

 

[Mike Murdock]

I thought Caitlin's PTSD was very realistic. Maybe Jesse should have had the same issues.

I also thought from the beginning that the Canary Cry should have looked like this (with the CGI soundwaves) on Arrow. Black Siren wasn't the most complex of roles, but it was an enjoyable episode.

 

[Jedi Arrow]

Okay so this episode was great. Henry's death was super well-done and shocking (though not really, but the fact that it happened at the very end of the episode was what was shocking), and Black Siren was awesome. Other things I liked were Barry's newfound confidence and Cisco using his Vibe blast to knock the Canary Cry off-path (not only that, it overpowered the blast and knocked Black Siren down).

Oh, and in addition to the awesomeness of Barry and Iris, can I say how cute Wally and Jesse are together? I'm not usually a 'shipper (I dislike the extreme ones and think they ruined a lot of Arrow and dread the idea of them coming to Flash in full force like Olicity), but I totally ship these two. They're just adorable when they share the screen. I've decided to call them Quest (Quick + West). t:

 

[ARBH]

the show is getting worse and worse.

Meh... It had some missteps. I do not agree with the "worse and worse". Although the CGI Tina Magee falling through the rubble of the collapsing building was really bad. They couldn't even model her hair to move somewhat correctly in conjunction with you know... the laws of gravity.

 

[zenith16]

I don't know why people are assuming Barry's faster than Zoom. He was barely faster than him before he gave him all his speed. So Zoom had twice Barry's normal speed before the speed force thing. Yes it's implied that Barry got a boost in his abilities, as well as his confidence, but i'm willing to bet he's still pretty even with Zoom.

Barry had no reason to think that if he kept going Zoom wouldn't just dodge it and snap Henry's neck or something. The biggest issue with scenes like this isn't a writing flaw. It's that Barry chooses to take the safest route, while his enemies are playing by different rules.

I blame Henry, Joe and Iris. If they hadn't knocked Barry down a peg, and he'd kept thinking he was infallible, he could have probably taken Henry without Zoom expecting it. But classic Barry, put his family on the line, and he crumples. It's actually pretty consistent characterization.

hmmmm , let's keep in mind that writers are fallowing pattern of they make the character act stupid to further the plot which is doing more harm then good for the dc characters of live action. I believe.. the point is they really wanted henry to die sadly.

And they made barry do stupid things to make it happen. let's also remember Barry is still just a forensic's person and not a trained patrol cop and unlike those character's of the shows & it's spin off's csi the series , where they all had to start carrying hand gun weapon's and take training course the same as cops on the beat,( cause they got in the criminal's of the weeks face in the interrogation room too often.) that they shouldn't waste their time talking the criminal holding a hostage in front of you.


Barry doesn't have that training or experience. cause real forensic people don't get that personal with the criminals on the case. it's just the detectives.

it's a rarity.



yeah Barry's been fighting villains as the flash . but he wasn't trained by eobard to deal with that and doesn't know what to do still there.

it was just a plain excuse/ reason to have it happen and they had him do something naive But not unexpected. unlike what happened arrow with diggle going back to lyla after his brother tortured him and left a tracking device in his stab WOUND. ad he should went back to off site doctor the agency KNOWS.

AND THERE WAS Ray letting savage bait him into walking into his cell on the wave rider so savage can use Palmer's body to get him self out.




you and I had this convo befor inthe legends thread. as to what henry Joe and iris did, all they did was want barry to be more grounded cause he was setting him self for a major fall. and it still happen cause they them selsve forgot that they didn't find zoom knocked out. and they should have been more cautious but they all went to joe's place to celebrate.

So this was more of a weird karma thing or more of a you should fallow your own advice of the lethal kind for those three.

I stopped watching Arrow months ago, so had no idea Laurel was dead until this ep...

your one of the smartist poster I know. I only started backing way recently when I just should have fallowed my instinct's

Has Zoom really let Caitlin go, or has he released her with her under his influence, or with something changed about her?

Is she merely hallucinating that she's seeing Zoom, or is he really appearing to remind her of how he can end her life anytime?

it's possible but it may be more of PTSD thing with caitlin

I don't like MG, but you seem to forget that Berlanti is very involved with his shows:

well I've said this once before I think barlanti is only as involved with the shows as JJ abram was when he had tv shows on but as soon as got more then one project happening at once he have his focus set on that newer project especially if it's movie and let the person he left in charge take over and some of those shows like lost had this weird thing were alot of the season suffered til JJ abrams returned he set them on course again and he's leave and the pattern happened again this sorta happened with josh whedon too when they started Agents of shield where he wrote the pilot and then his brother and his brother wife took over the writing of that shows series.


barlanti is a producer yes but there's a big difference between being some what inthe know like what supposed to be happening schedule wise and being as hands on as an excutive producer where they maing sure everything on the show is running smoothly and they share the same responsibility as the director and main writers of the show.

Barlanti has bee busy with his new hit show blind side on NBC and he was give the green with the Booster gold and blue beetle movie. which he's been writing the scripts for this whole time. and there's also the comic show River dale based from the Archie book. which i'm he making sure to put some writing credits in that one too .

that too many things to be hands on which why he has people to delegate and run those show as head show runners them selves.

 

[spiderman2]

I don't know why people are assuming Barry's faster than Zoom. He was barely faster than him before he gave him all his speed. So Zoom had twice Barry's normal speed before the speed force thing. Yes it's implied that Barry got a boost in his abilities, as well as his confidence, but i'm willing to bet he's still pretty even with Zoom.

Barry had no reason to think that if he kept going Zoom wouldn't just dodge it and snap Henry's neck or something. The biggest issue with scenes like this isn't a writing flaw. It's that Barry chooses to take the safest route, while his enemies are playing by different rules.

I blame Henry, Joe and Iris. If they hadn't knocked Barry down a peg, and he'd kept thinking he was infallible, he could have probably taken Henry without Zoom expecting it. But classic Barry, put his family on the line, and he crumples. It's actually pretty consistent characterization.

I agree about the speed thing. Zoom has been much faster than Barry when Barry didn't have that one thing on his chest that he got going back to the past and now zoom is even faster because of the speed he got from Barry when Barry gave up his powers.

 

[zenith16]

I agree about the speed thing. Zoom has been much faster than Barry when Barry didn't have that one thing on his chest that he got going back to the past and now zoom is even faster because of the speed he got from Barry when Barry gave up his powers.

well berry has the speed force now and know how to used to make him faster with it and do stuff like wake jessie from a coma. Again the only reason he couldn't save his dad was due to a plot device where he acted stupid by asking the villain not to do it to his dad the hostage and to take him.

Again this the use of making the character act stupid to move the story's plot along cause they really wanted the death of henry to happen no matter what .


But it making the character act stupid and not learning from recent past mistake it become costly if done too often back to back. I hope the writers are taking note of the audience feed back. but who knows ? ....

 

[Eni]

well berry has the speed force now and know how to used to make him faster with it and do stuff like wake jessie from a coma. Again the only reason he couldn't save his dad was due to a plot device where he acted stupid by asking the villain not to do it to his dad the hostage and to take him.

Again this the use of making the character act stupid to move the story's plot along cause they really wanted the death of henry to happen no matter what .


But it making the character act stupid and not learning from recent past mistake it become costly if done too often back to back. I hope the writers are taking note of the audience feed back. but who knows ? ....

I actually understood him not being able to defeat Zoom was because he (once again) stopped believing in his own competency after the team kept telling him that he should be afraid of Zoom and keep in mind that he was nearly killed by him before. I think if the confrontation between those two happened in the beginning of the episode, he wouldn't really had a problem with handling Zoom.

I agree regarding the writers dumbing Barry down quite a bit, it made this season quite lackluster when it comes to him, portraying him often like a incompetent moron. They aren't able to come up with a way for Barry to actually be able to use speed powers while keeping the villains they used so far an actual threat against him - Zoom included.

I wonder whether he is going to be mentally crippled by this experience in a way, giving them an excuse to making him actively unable to really use his powers later on and thus making him in a more manageable hero. Then again, I don't understand why they made him overcome his mother's death last week at all just to kill his dad off this week so that he can once again fault himself. All in all, pretty bad writing.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

My biggest problems with the Flash is this:

1) Barry is a jobber. I mean it's to the point where it's wrestling bad. When he isn't getting his ass handed to him (when he clearly shouldn't) the writers come up with the most convoluted forms of plot induced stupidity that it hurts. If you're going to put the hero in situations where he can't win try to make sure thise reasons are actually full proof and not just PIS on Barry's part.

2) Stop breaking the rules you've set for your show/universe. Granted this is much worse on Legends and at this point probably abysmal on Arrow, but please stop with the timey-wimey. I don't buy the time remnant Thawne family paradox. I don't buy Zoom masquerading as the Flash/Jay Garrick either. The CW Berlanti verse should hire someone to write down all the rules they can't break and why, all the rules they can break and why, and all the rules they can bend and why, and foward this to ALL of the staff including Blake Neely and the lighting technicians. Suspension of disbelief isn't a prostitute you can pay off and copulate with behind a dumpster. Please treat her with a little more respect and dignity.

Despite these two major criticisms I still think the Flash is a solid show and definitely worth watching, but at some point you got to call a spade a spade.

 

[WereCoyote]

I *highly* doubt that, since it would basically make Flash and company the biggest supervillains on two worlds. It would be *epically* out-of-theme.

Out of theme? It is extremely in theme for this show, and all of the Flarrowverse, for the heroes to come up with a plan and have it backfire with unintended consequences.

 

[terry78]

My biggest problems with the Flash is this:

1) Barry is a jobber. I mean it's to the point where it's wrestling bad. When he isn't getting his ass handed to him (when he clearly shouldn't) the writers come up with the most convoluted forms of plot induced stupidity that it hurts. If you're going to put the hero in situations where he can't win try to make sure thise reasons are actually full proof and not just PIS on Barry's part.

2) Stop breaking the rules you've set for your show/universe. Granted this is much worse on Legends and at this point probably abysmal on Arrow, but please stop with the timey-wimey. I don't buy the time remnant Thawne family paradox. I don't buy Zoom masquerading as the Flash/Jay Garrick either. The CW Berlanti verse should hire someone to write down all the rules they can't break and why, all the rules they can break and why, and all the rules they can bend and why, and foward this to ALL of the staff including Blake Neely and the lighting technicians. Suspension of disbelief isn't a prostitute you can pay off and copulate with behind a dumpster. Please treat her with a little more respect and dignity.

Despite these two major criticisms I still think the Flash is a solid show and definitely worth watching, but at some point you got to call a spade a spade.

I'm stealing this.

 

[Loki882]

I really don't care for this stuff Caitlin thing either. Can they find NOTHING truly interesting for her to do, seriously. We cannot actually make her Killer Frost and into a sympathetic villain, but this is a good alternative apparently? Ugh.

 

[Bats1690]

I actually understood him not being able to defeat Zoom was because he (once again) stopped believing in his own competency after the team kept telling him that he should be afraid of Zoom and keep in mind that he was nearly killed by him before. I think if the confrontation between those two happened in the beginning of the episode, he wouldn't really had a problem with handling Zoom.

I agree regarding the writers dumbing Barry down quite a bit, it made this season quite lackluster when it comes to him, portraying him often like a incompetent moron. They aren't able to come up with a way for Barry to actually be able to use speed powers while keeping the villains they used so far an actual threat against him - Zoom included.

I wonder whether he is going to be mentally crippled by this experience in a way, giving them an excuse to making him actively unable to really use his powers later on and thus making him in a more manageable hero. Then again, I don't understand why they made him overcome his mother's death last week at all just to kill his dad off this week so that he can once again fault himself. All in all, pretty bad writing.

Based on what? Absolutely nothing suggests he's even as fast as Zoom let alone fast enough to easily handle him. People are sitting here criticizing the show for Barry not doing anything to save his father when there's nothing he could do. At BEST he's around the same speed as Zoom. It's like taking a situation with three normal people with one person holding a knife to one of the other guys throat and saying why didn't the third guy do anything. There's nothing Barry could have done before Zoom killed Henry.

 

[Eni]

Based on what? Absolutely nothing suggests he's even as fast as Zoom let alone fast enough to easily handle him. People are sitting here criticizing the show for Barry not doing anything to save his father when there's nothing he could do. At BEST he's around the same speed as Zoom. It's like taking a situation with three normal people with one person holding a knife to one of the other guys throat and saying why didn't the third guy do anything. There's nothing Barry could have done before Zoom killed Henry.

Zoom needed Barry's speed because it was superior to his own in actually not being temporary which in itself is pretty much a deciding factor in a fight and established early on that Barry was the special cookie. And while Zoom now has Barry's speed, Barty presumably has now a tighter connection to the speed force judging by last weeks episode, the sorce of any speedster's power that Zoom doesn't have. I make my assumptions on that and Barry's (rather questionable) growth as a hero when it comes to mastering his powers (or thinking during a fight) over the second season.

I do agree with you in a way, though, as with these writers Barry really had no way to save his dad in the end. And it is also lazy writing, same thing happened to Ollie's mom in Arrow season 2.

 

[Bats1690]

Zoom needed Barry's speed because it was superior to his own in actually not being temporary which in itself is pretty much a deciding factor in a fight and established early on that Barry was the special cookie.

Uh what? No he didn't. He needed his speed because it was the only thing that could cure him from the V9. And Zoom's speed wasn't temporary. I've no idea where you even got that from. He actually has the speed force in him, which is outright shown in the flashback of him receiving his powers from the dark matter of the particle accelerator.

And while Zoom now has Barry's speed, Barty presumably has now a tighter connection to the speed force judging by last weeks episode, the sorce of any speedster's power that Zoom doesn't have. I make my assumptions on that and Barry's (rather questionable) growth as a hero when it comes to mastering his powers (or thinking during a fight) over the second season.

Except he does as I've already explained. Like I said, there's absolutely nothing proving Barry is even as fast as Zoom let alone fast enough to deal with him easily.

 

[Dninx64]

The problem for me is that Flash didn't try to save his Dad, just stood there.
If he had at least tried I wouldn't have a problem with Henry dying.

Also Flash be overconfident: What did he have to be overconfident about? He hasn't beaten Zoom, and that one time they got him, Barry spent most of the time monologuing.
Also repeating "The Speed Force is with us" is not a good way of being overconfident

 

[aNarcHy2day]

I probably remember the scene differently. I don't remember Flash having any opening to charge at Zoom, superspeed or not and doing so would probably have preempted Zoom's actions.

 

[b_boy]

I think Barry "stooding" there was more so we could see what actually was happening. I mean, they had Barry and Zoom (with Barry's father) running through the city and Barry couldn't catch him. So I think that showed that Barry would not be able to save his father.

If they wanted to be more realistic, they could made the same scene with Barry trying to catch Zoom but Zoom escaping all the time, but I think that would take the emotion out, or maybe for budget reasons they could not shoot the scene that way....

 

[X-Ray]

So things were at a normal pace so we can see it. But in their reality they were speeding through it. So something like this from Young Justice....

[Yt]7TC5vCyny_U[/MEDIA]

 

[Jedi Arrow]

But Henry was talking to and understanding them also.

 

[vantheman77]

About the visions that Cisco saw, what if it's not Earth-2 that is doomed but rather Supergirl's Earth is?