The General Comic Discussion Thread - Part 2

[Primal Slayer]

The odd part about the news regarding Tim is that they’ve made his character synonymous with his relationship with Stephanie for quite a long time now. Their romance has, to a degree, defined them and has actually been well done for the most part. They’re so different and play off one another very well.

This seems left field for a character who has been monogamous for decades.

I dont see it as left field. Tim isn't gay, he still dated Stephanie, was in love with her but they've broken up and he may have feelings for a boy. It happens. And like he said in the issue, it's something new to him and something he's willing to explore.

It's really no different imo from Dick having a serious relationship with Barbara or Starfire....or Bruce having Talia/Selena/countless other women.

If we turned this guy into a girl, no one would really say "it's weird that he feelings for this new chick because he dated Stephanie in the past"

 

[Calvin Ellis]

This all just seems wrong to me.

 

[Primal Slayer]

As long as it isnt a "we stated it once and now we'll just ignore it until our nexy pride issue" I'll look forward to to them exploring this new side of the character. Especially if it forces DC to start telling stories about their heroes personal lives again.

 

[Lily Adler]

Some of you act like this is another Iceman situation.

 

[Primal Slayer]

It is funny that a lot of people are like "OMG ROBIN IS GAYYYYYY but he's written as STRAIGHT" but they dont even know that this Tim Drake and his sexuality has never been mentioned as "i'm totally straight"

 

[Babillygunn]

I dont see it as left field. Tim isn't gay, he still dated Stephanie, was in love with her but they've broken up and he may have feelings for a boy. It happens. And like he said in the issue, it's something new to him and something he's willing to explore.

It's really no different imo from Dick having a serious relationship with Barbara or Starfire....or Bruce having Talia/Selena/countless other women.

If we turned this guy into a girl, no one would really say "it's weird that he feelings for this new chick because he dated Stephanie in the past"

I guess I just missed where they broke up. In fact, I thought they were still together even in Future State.

I can see Dick as bi more than Tim. Tim just has always had Stephanie and that’s about it.

 

[super85]

It is funny that a lot of people are like "OMG ROBIN IS GAYYYYYY but he's written as STRAIGHT" but they dont even know that this Tim Drake and his sexuality has never been mentioned as "i'm totally straight"

There is nothing odd with people disliking things like this. It comes across as forced, and a industry somehow in panic trying to have somebody Still care about floppies and generate interest in it. The fact the story were this has been told in has been utterly terrible doesnt help.

Its one of those "refuse in your head cannon " situations. A bit like the Osborne/Mary Jane stuff from the Spider-Man comics, its just something that doesnt feel like it fits in with the character.

It fits in with a character like "North Star" for those who have read that character for the last 30+ years, but here it comes across as a cheap stunt from a mediocre writer.

 

[Primal Slayer]

There is nothing odd with people disliking things like this. It comes across as forced, and a industry somehow in panic trying to have somebody Still care about floppies and generate interest in it. The fact the story were this has been told in has been utterly terrible doesnt help.

Its one of those "refuse in your head cannon " situations. A bit like the Osborne/Mary Jane stuff from the Spider-Man comics, its just something that doesnt feel like it fits in with the character.

It fits in with a character like "North Star" for those who have read that character for the last 30+ years, but here it comes across as a cheap stunt from a mediocre writer.

People who are pissed that ROBIN is bi/gay...is weird because they do not even realize who it is, to them its the same Robin whose been around 60 years.

If someone thinks that the story was weak is one thing. Those who are mad about it or claim the characters straightness is another imo. If Tim had a new crush on a girl then barely anyone would bat an eyelash. At least here we have Tim questioning these new found feelings as they are just as new to him as it is the audience. But it doesn't invalidate his relationship with Stephanie that some try to use as an excuse as to why he cant be bisexual.

 

[Babillygunn]

People who are pissed that ROBIN is bi/gay...is weird because they do not even realize who it is, to them its the same Robin whose been around 60 years.

If someone thinks that the story was weak is one thing. Those who are mad about it or claim the characters straightness is another imo. If Tim had a new crush on a girl then barely anyone would bat an eyelash. At least here we have Tim questioning these new found feelings as they are just as new to him as it is the audience. But it doesn't invalidate his relationship with Stephanie that some try to use as an excuse as to why he cant be bisexual.

I understand your points. And they make better sense now that you explain them. Thanks.

I’m actually not mad that they wrote him this way (although I respect the opinions of those who say that it wasn’t executed very well and based upon a lot of the track records for romances in comics, I don’t doubt that the criticisms are valid.)

I think after reading your posts I realize that the disconnect is that I am actually a relatively big fan of Stephanie Brown. (Admittedly, the membership in this fan club is small, but we are devoted.) I would actually put the Tim/Stephanie romance up there with Oliver/Dinah, Clark/Lois, or Wally/ Linda. These are characters who are at their best when romantically linked to a specific character. And these are characters who I have an investment in as a reader.

There are a number of other characters who, if they were shown to be bi, I wouldn’t have a moment’s objection to it. For instance, Dick has had sooo many love interests that I wouldn’t give a second thought to him exploring feelings for another guy. Same for Bruce. I could see Jason or Barry or any number of other characters this way.

I just want to see Stephanie get her due and it tends to happen in stories with Tim. I suspect that she will probably fade even more into the background without their romance, because that has always been a big factor in their stories.

 

[super85]

People who are pissed that ROBIN is bi/gay...is weird because they do not even realize who it is, to them its the same Robin whose been around 60 years.

If someone thinks that the story was weak is one thing. Those who are mad about it or claim the characters straightness is another imo. If Tim had a new crush on a girl then barely anyone would bat an eyelash. At least here we have Tim questioning these new found feelings as they are just as new to him as it is the audience. But it doesn't invalidate his relationship with Stephanie that some try to use as an excuse as to why he cant be bisexual.

Ok, so you are talking about random reactions by non-readers? I disliked the change becouse I have read the character for 25+ years and think this is a cheap stunt. Its probably a case of people who dont buy this stuff anyway reaction in both ways. People pressing thumbs up, but not ever reading comics ever, and people hating it who dont read ths stuff either.

It be interesting to know also how many of the people who welcome this change has actually read that 8 dollar Batman anthology this has been published in. I have, I think the entire book is overpriced and pretty bad, and this has not really changed my mind on it. So I will drop the book. I guess I will eat crow if this will give a long lasting boost on the sales. People pressing the like button and running to local comic shops or getting comixology accounts.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I understand your points. And they make better sense now that you explain them. Thanks.

I’m actually not mad that they wrote him this way (although I respect the opinions of those who say that it wasn’t executed very well and based upon a lot of the track records for romances in comics, I don’t doubt that the criticisms are valid.)

I think after reading your posts I realize that the disconnect is that I am actually a relatively big fan of Stephanie Brown. (Admittedly, the membership in this fan club is small, but we are devoted.) I would actually put the Tim/Stephanie romance up there with Oliver/Dinah, Clark/Lois, or Wally/ Linda. These are characters who are at their best when romantically linked to a specific character. And these are characters who I have an investment in as a reader.

There are a number of other characters who, if they were shown to be bi, I wouldn’t have a moment’s objection to it. For instance, Dick has had sooo many love interests that I wouldn’t give a second thought to him exploring feelings for another guy. Same for Bruce. I could see Jason or Barry or any number of other characters this way.

I just want to see Stephanie get her due and it tends to happen in stories with Tim. I suspect that she will probably fade even more into the background without their romance, because that has always been a big factor in their stories.

To me that is respectable and understandable since it isn't necessarily about him being bi as it is your connection to the ship.

Ok, so you are talking about random reactions by non-readers? I disliked the change becouse I have read the character for 25+ years and think this is a cheap stunt. Its probably a case of people who dont buy this stuff anyway reaction in both ways. People pressing thumbs up, but not ever reading comics ever, and people hating it who dont read ths stuff either.


It be interesting to know also how many of the people who welcome this change has actually read that 8 dollar Batman anthology this has been published in. I have, I think the entire book is overpriced and pretty bad, and this has not really changed my mind on it. So I will drop the book. I guess I will eat crow if this will give a long lasting boost on the sales. People pressing the like button and running to local comic shops or getting comixology accounts.

Yeah, more about the general public on Twitter. Those who think it's a cheap stunt, totally get it and hopefully dc actually puts the time/effort back into Tim as an overall character and exploring this side of him.

 

[Babillygunn]

DC would be good to explore any side of Tim. Writers don’t seem to know what to do with him. But when written well, he really can drive a good Batman story. Lonely Place of Dying and even the recent Lonely Place of Living are excellent stories that I really enjoyed. In fact, A Lonely Place of Dying may be one of my top 5 favorite Batman stories. But too often, Tim is not written well or more often than not ignored altogether. His Red Robin title was flat out boring. Now he fills the role of Bat family member who occasionally shows up in the background and doesn’t really fulfill a role aside from delivering some exposition. That’s a similar role to what they’ve given Stephanie, although that’s better than having her show up and mess things up, which is what they did for a while.

 

[Robin91939]

The issue with this is that they are solving one problem with another. The problem they’re solving is one that needs solving: more LGBTQ characters. But the problem they’re replacing it with brings up real issues dealing with toxic masculinity.

Tim was a character that a segment of fans wanted to be LGBTQ mainly because he’s had incredibly strong relationships with other male characters (Connor, Wally, etc) throughout his history.

But that’s the issue. Making Tim gay/bi and using his very close platonic friendship with other heterosexual male characters as part of the justification is very problematic.

It says that two men can’t share a close bond of friendship without being gay.

It says two male friends can’t love each other without being gay.

Saying two straight men can’t share a deep, platonic love is a problem.

It ALSO says that two male friends (one straight and one LGBTQ) can’t just be friends without the LGBTQ friend falling in love. This perpetuates negative stereotypes of gay men and feeds fears of homophobes who think every gay man wants to have sex with them.

This happened after Avengers: Endgame when some fans were mad that Steve and Bucky didn’t end up together - when 10 years of storytelling had shown that Steve was hopelessly in love with Peggy and the love story was theirs. But again, two straight men aren’t allowed to be friends who share a non-romantic love.

The more interesting character to make a member of the LGBTQ community would have been Damian. He has no real romantic baggage. It would be organic because he’s so young and discovering all of this for the first time - just discovering who he’d be interested in. And it would be interesting to see how Bruce reacts to raising an LGBTQ son. Is he accepting? Does he struggle? Does Damian even want to talk about it? There’s comedy and drama on the table to be mined there.

Doing it this way and for this reason just feels gimmicky and like DC wanted to appeal to the tumblr/fanfic crowd. I’m sure Fitzmartin’s heart is in the right place - but it doesn’t work.

-R

 

[RockSP]

Okay, I'm super out of the loop when it comes to "the big two". So Tim is Robin again? Last thing I read with him he'd started going by Red Robin. What is Damion doing these days? Last book I read with him was the first few issues of Super Sons and he was still Robin at the time.

 

[super85]

It be great if writers would have actual stories in mind. That is about something else too, I certainly hope they keep Damian a "kid" and dont have anything relating romance with that character for years. He works just fine as he is.

That whole "Red Robin" thing with New 52 ( I know it was introduced before that reboot) started a lot of this mess with the Batfamily and weird "this is in continuity but this really isnt or it kind of is" and they havent figured anything smart to do with Tim Drake since then.

 

[Calvin Ellis]

The issue with this is that they are solving one problem with another. The problem they’re solving is one that needs solving: more LGBTQ characters. But the problem they’re replacing it with brings up real issues dealing with toxic masculinity.

Tim was a character that a segment of fans wanted to be LGBTQ mainly because he’s had incredibly strong relationships with other male characters (Connor, Wally, etc) throughout his history.

But that’s the issue. Making Tim gay/bi and using his very close platonic friendship with other heterosexual male characters as part of the justification is very problematic.

It says that two men can’t share a close bond of friendship without being gay.

It says two male friends can’t love each other without being gay.

Saying two straight men can’t share a deep, platonic love is a problem.

It ALSO says that two male friends (one straight and one LGBTQ) can’t just be friends without the LGBTQ friend falling in love. This perpetuates negative stereotypes of gay men and feeds fears of homophobes who think every gay man wants to have sex with them.

This happened after Avengers: Endgame when some fans were mad that Steve and Bucky didn’t end up together - when 10 years of storytelling had shown that Steve was hopelessly in love with Peggy and the love story was theirs. But again, two straight men aren’t allowed to be friends who share a non-romantic love.

The more interesting character to make a member of the LGBTQ community would have been Damian. He has no real romantic baggage. It would be organic because he’s so young and discovering all of this for the first time - just discovering who he’d be interested in. And it would be interesting to see how Bruce reacts to raising an LGBTQ son. Is he accepting? Does he struggle? Does Damian even want to talk about it? There’s comedy and drama on the table to be mined there.

Doing it this way and for this reason just feels gimmicky and like DC wanted to appeal to the tumblr/fanfic crowd. I’m sure Fitzmartin’s heart is in the right place - but it doesn’t work.

-R

This has always been a problem. I mean look at King David and Jonathan they were like brothers much like Cap & Bucky (so to speak) but people want to turn that relationship into something it wasn't.

 

[Mani-Man]

Finally got time for Comics week…and boy was a lot going on there.

And we start with the big one

Batman Urban Legends

A bit sad that the Red Hood story gets a bit sidelined because the final is really nicely done.
Im a sucker for Bruce and Jason burying their hatchet…its always nice to see the father son relationship slowly healing.

But the big one deserves the spotlight…Tim finally being confirmed as Bi.
Im really happy since it was a pretty open secret for a long time now.
That’s why the whole bull**** of it being “forced” is a dumb persons idiotic rant.
For a long time the vibe was there, it’s the same with Ivy and Harley…something very visible yet somehow people act like it isn’t.

And the “forced” excuse why its not good, yeah son, don’t see me you making this argument.
I will fight every bastard who comes around yet again with the whole “its forced” dumbnuts argument.
Somehow this complain always comes up when LGBT or POC are involved…but where was the same “its forced” energy when Tom King wrote his god awful 90+ issue batcat fanfiction in which the dirtbag even killed Alfred just for it?
Where he broke up the batfamily, where he shifted the whole DC universe just to make it “work”? Where was the complain about it being forced there?
Oh right, its about straight white characters so its okay.

Just say you hate LGBT and POC and spare us this childish “its forced”.
Because the only “accepted” representation for you is when LGBT/POC are not seen, heard or spoken about.
But you are for representation right? Give me a break you clowns.
Tim is BI so either F off or accept it.

Every fictional medium is “forced”, nothing is natural…every character, story, plot twist Is forced.
So stop embarrassing yourself trying this angle.

Batman 89

First issue was cool, but to be honest…I hoped for a more Burton like art style.
This was way too colorful and not “gothic” enough.
But still, cool to see them continuing in this great universe.


Detective Comics

Was going the expected direction, but that’s not necessary the worst idea.
With Tynion gone soon on Batman, I really hope they consider Tamaki for the main Batman series.
Her writing with Jimenez art…boy that would be fantastic.

I am Batman

Hm, were future state was a success, this felt a bit flat in its approach.
Not a huge fan visual and in terms of the writing.
But lets see where this goes, giving it as usual 5 issues to see if it gets better.


Infinite Frontier

Keeps consistently interesting, im really enjoying it.
Its nice seeing all those characters and stuff, has a good variety of characters that make the story feel good in terms of size and importance.

Justice League Last Ride

Eh, we find out more why Bruce and Clark are at odds and I must say, that it felt a bit weak.
The whole build up and execution wasn’t as tragic as I was hoping for.
I mean I get it for sure, but it seems rather “childish” based on this to be honest.
But still, it’s a good story so far and it keeps me interested in the next issue, so its fine.

The Joker

It keeps being a wacky story and I love it for that.
It puts nice twists and turns into its story and keeps things interesting.

Wonder Woman

Same as usual, super nice storyline so far with good writing and great art.


So there was a lot going, Super happy for Tim and ready to fight anybody who dares to take this away from the character or LGBT.
Now the next step is to stay consistent with it.
Not just throwing it in here and forgetting about it.
And while we are at it DC…finally make Harley/Ivy 100% canon for the love of god.

 

[super85]

This has always been a problem. I mean look at King David and Jonathan they were like brothers much like Cap & Bucky (so to speak) but people want to turn that relationship into something it wasn't.

Very good points by you and Robin earlier in this thread. It almost has a homophobia in it. A guy who is a "nice guy" and has male friends and is a decent person must be gay, or in this case bi. Its odd, and like I said earlier, this just felt like a cheap stunt based on some sort of online "shipping" or whatever the term is.

 

[Sithborg]

The issue with this is that they are solving one problem with another. The problem they’re solving is one that needs solving: more LGBTQ characters. But the problem they’re replacing it with brings up real issues dealing with toxic masculinity.

Tim was a character that a segment of fans wanted to be LGBTQ mainly because he’s had incredibly strong relationships with other male characters (Connor, Wally, etc) throughout his history.

But that’s the issue. Making Tim gay/bi and using his very close platonic friendship with other heterosexual male characters as part of the justification is very problematic.

It says that two men can’t share a close bond of friendship without being gay.

It says two male friends can’t love each other without being gay.

Saying two straight men can’t share a deep, platonic love is a problem.

It ALSO says that two male friends (one straight and one LGBTQ) can’t just be friends without the LGBTQ friend falling in love. This perpetuates negative stereotypes of gay men and feeds fears of homophobes who think every gay man wants to have sex with them.

This happened after Avengers: Endgame when some fans were mad that Steve and Bucky didn’t end up together - when 10 years of storytelling had shown that Steve was hopelessly in love with Peggy and the love story was theirs. But again, two straight men aren’t allowed to be friends who share a non-romantic love.

The more interesting character to make a member of the LGBTQ community would have been Damian. He has no real romantic baggage. It would be organic because he’s so young and discovering all of this for the first time - just discovering who he’d be interested in. And it would be interesting to see how Bruce reacts to raising an LGBTQ son. Is he accepting? Does he struggle? Does Damian even want to talk about it? There’s comedy and drama on the table to be mined there.

Doing it this way and for this reason just feels gimmicky and like DC wanted to appeal to the tumblr/fanfic crowd. I’m sure Fitzmartin’s heart is in the right place - but it doesn’t work.

-R

Just when you think things have changed since the Legend of Korra.

 

[Snow Queen]

Jesus.

 

[CrimsonMist]

There is a part of me that thinks making Tim Bi- is catering to the tumblr/twitter crowd who really do think that, for some reason, men can't have close, platonic relationships with each other and be straight. Because I feel like Conner Kent would be the obvious boyfriend (again, see tumblr especially). But who knows.

On the other hand, Tim is still, and really always has been, a pretty interesting character. So long as they stick with it, and can still tell good stories with Tim (which they really haven't done in a while), I'm OK with it. I take issue with anyone who thinks that it came on without build up. Because while I haven't read the story yet, it sounds like it was introduced rather seamlessly. I don't know how you would build up to this. And even if there was a way, everyone would still accuse it of lacking build-up. The goal post for these parameters by anyone who claims they can do better always seems to move further and further.

Anyways, comics:

The one book I was pretty disappointed by was Batman'89. LOVED the Jerry Ordway variant cover, and thought the art was solid, but it really lacked the feeling that the Burton films conveyed. It may be a case of the film simply doing all of the heavy lifting: the actors, the production design, the music, the editing. All of which is absent here because it's a comic.

Rorschach #11: Shame be unto you if you aren't reading this. I sound like a broken record, probably because I'm the only one here reading it, but it is SO GOOD. And it works so incredibly well within the world of Watchmen without being directly related to Watchmen at all. It's a great look at how regular people navigate that world, and does one better than the TV show by not trying to add to the original comic. A few issues ago, I'd consider the argument that this comic could have been made using The Question, but the most recent issues show why it can't. It's so good. I hope the ending really sticks.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The issue with this is that they are solving one problem with another. The problem they’re solving is one that needs solving: more LGBTQ characters. But the problem they’re replacing it with brings up real issues dealing with toxic masculinity.

Tim was a character that a segment of fans wanted to be LGBTQ mainly because he’s had incredibly strong relationships with other male characters (Connor, Wally, etc) throughout his history.

But that’s the issue. Making Tim gay/bi and using his very close platonic friendship with other heterosexual male characters as part of the justification is very problematic.

It says that two men can’t share a close bond of friendship without being gay.

It says two male friends can’t love each other without being gay.

Saying two straight men can’t share a deep, platonic love is a problem.

It ALSO says that two male friends (one straight and one LGBTQ) can’t just be friends without the LGBTQ friend falling in love. This perpetuates negative stereotypes of gay men and feeds fears of homophobes who think every gay man wants to have sex with them.

This happened after Avengers: Endgame when some fans were mad that Steve and Bucky didn’t end up together - when 10 years of storytelling had shown that Steve was hopelessly in love with Peggy and the love story was theirs. But again, two straight men aren’t allowed to be friends who share a non-romantic love.

The more interesting character to make a member of the LGBTQ community would have been Damian. He has no real romantic baggage. It would be organic because he’s so young and discovering all of this for the first time - just discovering who he’d be interested in. And it would be interesting to see how Bruce reacts to raising an LGBTQ son. Is he accepting? Does he struggle? Does Damian even want to talk about it? There’s comedy and drama on the table to be mined there.

Doing it this way and for this reason just feels gimmicky and like DC wanted to appeal to the tumblr/fanfic crowd. I’m sure Fitzmartin’s heart is in the right place - but it doesn’t work.

-R

This has always been a problem. I mean look at King David and Jonathan they were like brothers much like Cap & Bucky (so to speak) but people want to turn that relationship into something it wasn't.

Very good points by you and Robin earlier in this thread. It almost has a homophobia in it. A guy who is a "nice guy" and has male friends and is a decent person must be gay, or in this case bi. Its odd, and like I said earlier, this just felt like a cheap stunt based on some sort of online "shipping" or whatever the term is.

Holy lack of understanding of what toxic masculinity and homophobia, Batman!

Okay where to start.

- One character being bi does not say bros can't be bros, and considering the history of fiction, that should be extremely obvious.

- A character being attracted to men, doesn't mean he can't have men as friends. He can even be friends with other gay men. Crazy, I know.

- Thinking that because someone is attracted to a certain gender, they can't be friends with someone of that gender, is problematic.

- Shipping of m/m ships is in no way problematic. It is no different then shipping of m/w ships. Making the former some sort of issue is actually problematic.

- Faux outrage about the collapse of bromance while we are finally starting to see the normalization of LGBTQIA relationships in different mediums is problematic.

 

[Robin91939]

Holy lack of understanding of what toxic masculinity and homophobia, Batman!

Okay where to start.

- One character being bi does not say bros can't be bros, and considering the history of fiction, that should be extremely obvious.

- A character being attracted to men, doesn't mean he can't have men as friends. He can even be friends with other gay men. Crazy, I know.

- Thinking that because someone is attracted to a certain gender, they can't be friends with someone of that gender, is problematic.

- Shipping of m/m ships is in no way problematic. It is no different then shipping of m/w ships. Making the former some sort of issue is actually problematic.

- Faux outrage about the collapse of bromance while we are finally starting to see the normalization of LGBTQIA relationships in different mediums is problematic.

Happy to go point by point:

It’s not a misunderstanding of what toxic masculinity is. A big problem with perceptions and portrayals of masculinity in the past has been that straight men are viewed as “weak” or “feminine” if they show love, tenderness, patience, etc. Basically any trait that wasn’t aggressive or stoic.

Men we’re viewed to be especially weak if they showed those types of feelings toward another man. Generations of fathers didn’t say “I love you” to their own sons because of this belief. It’s very real. This is a part of toxic masculinity. Men were told they needed to be “men”. And in this antiquated way of thinking, being a “men” was tied to all that outdated tough guy machismo stuff - where men aren’t allowed to show a full spectrum of emotions.

Second point: No one is saying that Tim being made LGTBQ means that “bros can’t be bros.” I’m saying that he seems to have been chosen because he has deep relationships with other male characters. This is a trend that some fans have shown with other characters (Steve and Bucky, Po and Finn, etc). I understand the impulse. There is a hunger for more representation. And there needs to be more representation. But the idea that, “This straight character is non-romantically very close with this straight character … let’s put them together romantically” is a bad one. Just because two straight men are very close friends doesn’t mean they will become romantically involved - it’s pretty problematic to demand that they do. Just like it’s problematic to suggest a straight character can “turn” a gay character. This assumes preference and not orientation.

Your third point we agree on. That’s my point. The reasons justifying Tim being LGBTQ confirm that problematic way of thinking: He can’t possibly be this close to male characters without being gay and romantically interested in one of them …

“Shipping” of m/m or f/f IS problematic if the characters in question aren’t LGBTQ. Would be the same if fans were demanding to see a gay character with a character of their opposite sex. Again, it’s orientation not preference. Preference suggests that there’s a choice on the character’s part to steer their sexuality. I’m pretty sure that type of thinking went out a while ago and now we accept that people are born with their particular orientation, whatever it happens to be.

Again, this isn’t outrage over “the collapse of the bromance.” This is pointing out that demanding any two males who show affection for each other have to become romantically involved is deeply flawed and problematic. Men should be able to show any and all emotions, and those emotions shouldn’t be reserved only for non-straight men. Yes, we are in an age where LGBTQ characters are becoming normalized. And a small part of the reason for that acceptance is the progress made by a lot of folks in trying to get rid of toxic masculinity. But sending the message that loving another man and having a deep affection for him isn’t something straight men do … contributes to that toxic masculinity. Plain and simple.

-R

 

[Snow Queen]

Same arguments every time, just going around the carousel. You'd think Tim Drake has now canonically slept with every guy he's ever spoken to and not... expressed interest in one single guy.

 

[Robin91939]

Same arguments every time, just going around the carousel. You'd think Tim Drake has now canonically slept with every guy he's ever spoken to and not... expressed interest in one single guy.

Get what you’re saying. But I’d say my argument is less about Tim and more about the trend that some fans have where they demand to see every close friendship become sexual.

It’s a bad trend. That’s not how sexuality works.

-R