The Good Citizens of Metropolis: The Casting Thread

[Dark Raven]

So after DC/WB **** the bed before by trying to make Superman too much like Batman with the dark tone, now they're trying to copy Black Panther instead of just giving us a traditional and classic Superman which is what everyone wanted in the first place.

They should stop jumping on other bandwagons and just do the proper thing.

 

[jmc]

So...if a version of Superman has to deal with new or socially relevant conflicts...he’s somehow not Superman anymore, even if he retains many of his core characteristics, like optimism, being an inspirational leader, etc?

The character has faced hatred over being an alien...making race allegorical to that could be an interesting approach.

I don’t think the safe play is to go right to that before they “get the character right”, but there’s potential there.

If him being an alien is applicable to racial allegory then you don't need to alter his ethnicity. The issue I have is that if there are no standards for what Superman should look like then you're not really dealing with a character anymore, you're dealing with more of a concept. Something that is fluid with no real defining features. The problem with that is that if you open it up to things like altering ethnicity then you're opening up other areas of the character to be significantly altered. The suit, his hair style, his mannerisms, and yes his ethnicity, these are the traits that not only identify him but help build the symbol that is Superman. And that symbol is immediate to the public due to his presence in pop culture for nearly 80 years. When you start to take away those visuals you lose something, it doesn't matter how good the redesign is or how much you want it to have the same presence, that symbol is no longer as impactful anymore. It would be like having Santa Claus have blonde hair and a blue suit, you can claim it still represents Christmas, but most people won't see it that way because for them that's not who the character is. At a certain point you start ruining the symbolism. Superman is in a bad enough state as he is and doesn't need the added drama of altering his visuals, what he needs is for WB to go back to basics, look at where the characters roots are and build from that.

 

[Binker]

So after DC/WB **** the bed before by trying to make Superman too much like Batman with the dark tone, now they're trying to copy Black Panther instead of just giving us a traditional and classic Superman which is what everyone wanted in the first place.

They should stop jumping on other bandwagons and just do the proper thing.

YES!!!!!!! YES!!!!!!!

 

[Lencho01]

 

[Fincher]

It does change everything! His background, his personality, history.

...?

White Clark Kent is a mild-mannered reporter who grew up on a farm in Kansas. Black Clark Kent is a mild-mannered reporter who grew up on a farm in Kansas.

 

[The Guard]

If him being an alien is applicable to racial allegory then you don't need to alter his ethnicity.

You don't "need" to do anything. I think it's fairly apparent how making him nonwhite would alter the significance of that allegory in our current sociopolitical environment.

The issue I have is that if there are no standards for what Superman should look like then you're not really dealing with a character anymore, you're dealing with more of a concept. Something that is fluid with no real defining features. The problem with that is that if you open it up to things like altering ethnicity then you're opening up other areas of the character to be significantly altered. [/quote]

I don't recall anyone saying there should be no standards for Superman.

Other things can be significantly altered anyway. This is a fictional character.

The suit, his hair style, his mannerisms, and yes his ethnicity, these are the traits that not only identify him but help build the symbol that is Superman. And that symbol is immediate to the public due to his presence in pop culture for nearly 80 years.

And look how popular the character is at the moment simply because they maintained all of those classic...oh.

When you start to take away those visuals you lose something, it doesn't matter how good the redesign is or how much you want it to have the same presence, that symbol is no longer as impactful anymore.

But it’s not a lose lose situation here. You add something too, it's just something different.

It would be like having Santa Claus have blonde hair and a blue suit, you can claim it still represents Christmas, but most people won't see it that way because for them that's not who the character is.

I mean, close minded people gonna close minded.

Wouldn't a better comparison involve making Santa Claus black?

Anyway, it's entirely possible a project could be completed where Santa Claus has blonde hair and a blue suit and people would respond if it was well done and questioned the "tradition" behind the red suit, the image, etc.

At a certain point you start ruining the symbolism.

I would guess that's the point where we lose the actual symbol, which is one of the most recognizeable insignias in the world.

Superman is in a bad enough state as he is and doesn't need the added drama of altering his visuals, what he needs is for WB to go back to basics, look at where the characters roots are and build from that.

I'm not arguing that this should be done right now, and I believe I've already said as much.

But people are trying to argue that this legitimately could not work because his whiteness is just so important to the character...and that's just silly. I'm not familiar with the majority of Superman stories being about white priviledge, which is the only element I can really think of existing within his character that applies ONLY if he's white.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Not saying I’m for or against racebending Superman, (I think it has the potential to be done well depending on the actor) but when you think of a Kansas farmboy, you pretty much think of a white dude

His personality is pretty stereotypically “white”. The whole concept of Superman is basically: what if your average everyday farmboy was secretly an alien?

 

[fan4stic]

I think race changing is pointless, whether casting a white guy for Blade or whatever.

 

[hellblazer103]

Look, I love Michael B. Jordan. I'm all for him getting more roles.

But anyone who doesn't think making Clark Kent black is obvious-ass pandering to the PC generation and nothing more is ... just ... HOW can you not see that ? Lmao

They'd have to do the Calvin Ellis thing for it to work at all.

 

[jmc]

You don't "need" to do anything. I think it's fairly apparent how making him nonwhite would alter the significance of that allegory in our current sociopolitical environment.

I don't recall anyone saying there should be no standards for Superman.

Other things can be significantly altered anyway. This is a fictional character.



And look how popular the character is at the moment simply because they maintained all of those classic...oh.


But it’s not a lose lose situation here. You add something too, it's just something different.



I mean, close minded people gonna close minded.

Wouldn't a better comparison involve making Santa Claus black?

Anyway, it's entirely possible a project could be completed where Santa Claus has blonde hair and a blue suit and people would respond if it was well done and questioned the "tradition" behind the red suit, the image, etc.



I would guess that's the point where we lose the actual symbol, which is one of the most recognizeable insignias in the world.



I'm not arguing that this should be done right now, and I believe I've already said as much.

But people are trying to argue that this legitimately could not work because his whiteness is just so important to the character...and that's just silly. I'm not familiar with the majority of Superman stories being about white priviledge, which is the only element I can really think of existing within his character that applies ONLY if he's white.

I’m only going to address the last part. You are overlooking the symbolism of how he looks overall. That symbol is not just the ‘s’ on his chest, it’s the entire visual package. And the Santa comparison, well, there’s a reason parents call all those shopping mall Santa’s his helpers, because we all know the ‘real’ one is busy at the North Pole. Him being the skin colour his is is part of his identity, it’s what helps make him recognisable, it’s all part of the symbolism of Superman whether people like it or not. That’s just who he is. He is just as visually defined by his skin as any other character. It’s not about giving reason for why he’s that skin tone, you don’t have to justify choosing a specific colour for a character you create, it’s about respecting that choice for what it is, which is the exact same argument people use when they get up in arms about whitewashed characters on film. You’re trying to justify why it’s not important under the notion his ethnicity doesn’t matter. Just because his ethnicity isn’t celebrated in any meaningful way like others are doesn’t mean it’s not as important to the character, especially when he’s been so prominent in the public eye. Any person can be a character like Superman, but only one person can ever be the real Superman.

 

[Dark Raven]

Just make Superman a woman and call him Supergirl. There's nothing that defines Superman as a man. "Man" in Superman is just patriarchal language when they really mean mankind. He's really "Superperson."

But the adjective "Super" has had it's time in the sun. How about "Resplendid" instead?

 

[Rorschach2012]

Just make Superman a woman and call him Supergirl. There's nothing that defines Superman as a man. "Man" in Superman is just patriarchal language when they really mean mankind. He's really "Superperson."

But the adjective "Super" has had it's time in the sun. How about "Resplendid" instead?

Why does Superman have to have muscles and be tall? Why does his suit have to be red and blue? Why does he need a cape?

 

[C. Lee]

I suggest that everyone discuss the subject without calling other people names. If you can't bring yourself to discussing it civilly then stay out of the discussion.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Can we just agree that being against racebending doesn’t necessarily mean someone is a racist? That’s a lazy way to discredit someone’s opinion

I don’t really care that much if Superman’s race is changed if everything else remains intact

 

[KBX]

It’s ok to want Superman to stay white simply because he has been white for 80 plus years. Just say so. Dont go around and thinking of random reasons why he can’t be black like America is racist and has to deal with social issues. He’s an alien and cleary the movie can side track the race card if they do choose. In Man of Steel take out Henry Cavill and replace him with Michael B Jordan. Which lines or scenes do they now have to change because Superman is black?

Superman won’t ever be anything other than white. Note black, asain, German, etc. America won’t allow it

 

[Nemeres]

Superman being a different ethnicity means him potentially having the deal with issues that he wouldn't have to under normal circumstance, especially in small town like where he grew up.

So? If this implies discrimination, it's not out of line with Superman's often seen alienation. There'd be a new component to it, but nothing that cancels out traditional elements recognizable in Superman stories.

 

[Silver Surfer]

Point is, Superman is still Superman, an alien uber powered being, who is adopted by 2 loving parents that instill in him a strong sens of morality. No race required in any of that.

 

[Dark Raven]

Point is, Superman is still Superman, an alien uber powered being, who is adopted by 2 loving parents that instill in him a strong sens of morality. No race required in any of that.

He's Uber powered now? He can't fly anymore so he has to take an Uber to get around?

 

[jmc]

So? If this implies discrimination, it's not out of line with Superman's often seen alienation. There'd be a new component to it, but nothing that cancels out traditional elements recognizable in Superman stories.

If it's already implied in the characterisation as it stands then there's no need to make it more literal. One of the big problems we are having these days is that people are wanting to literalise our fantasy mythologies, which doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense because fantasy is not meant to be an exact replica. If you want something that is realistic then superheroes is the last place you should be looking. That's not to say you can't have allegory and commentary and tackle hard issues, heck X-Men was more or less commentary of the civil rights movement of the 1960's after all, but it's not a place to look for real life. A reflection and a commentary of life and who we are as humans, but not an exact duplicate.

 

[Abudefduf]

I actually like the idea of a black Superman. Most of the movie would probably be about Clark Kent trying to avoid getting shot by cops, as that would give away his secret identity.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Michael B Jordan is a good actor but I have serious doubts that he would ever be convincing as a Kansas farmboy from a traditional conservative family.

And that's a crucial and necessary part of Clark's character. He's not Superman without that. Superman without Smallville is like making a Batman movie where Bruce Wayne grew up as a poor street urchin.

 

[Dark Raven]

MBJ has a certain cockiness about him. He doesn't have that earnestness that we associate with Clark.

Also he might want to stick to Marvel studios instead of being in comic movies that try to change things up too much as s reaction to something else and then aren't well received.

 

[Black Narcissus]

Eh, all i'm getting from some of ya'll is that there ain't any black farmers out there. lol

MBJ would make a great Superman/Clark to me.

At the same time, keep Supes white if you want. I for one would welcome a black/latino/asian etc Superman. Script just gotta be right or else you replace them in BvS and JL and it's the same goddamn outcome.

 

[Nemeres]

I wouldn't love nor hate the choice. The basic approach is what makes it or breaks it for me at this point. An interesting premise with enough poignancy, smarts and sci-fi wackiness. Outside the minutia, Superman's thing is basically being a handsome alien who passes for human, and that's a pool that can include non-whites. The meaningful iconography -- blue costume, red cape, the shield, a human outline in the sky -- is external. A non-white playing the role would be neither impossible to buy into nor something that cancels out the character's simple premise.

 

[Black Narcissus]

I'm also kinda surprised this is even a thread topic. The guy who mentioned MBJ as a potential candidate said this is not a real option, just WB throwing MBJ name to almost every film they are doing.