• The upgrade to XenForo 2.3.7 has now been completed. Please report any issues to our administrators.

The Israel Situation II

Status
Not open for further replies.
I actually agree with Midnyte here (something I don't do often). Going against Israel alienates the Jewish vote, and would piss off powerful Jewish lobbyist groups. And as immoral as Israel can sometimes be in here it conducts its military campaigns, it's still an important balance and stablizing force for America's affairs in the Middle East region as it's the only true Western Democracy.

Israel does not just conduct military its campaigns immorally. The relentless theft and annexation of Palestinian land doesn't serve a military purpose. Given that Israel rules over millions of Palestinians I question whether it can truly be called a democracy at this point.

I also don't know what you mean when you call it an important balance in the Middle East. What's it balancing?
 
It's an important buffer offsetting the surrounding Islamic theocracies and autocracies. It's a stabilizing force from a Western US geopolitical perspective, not from a Pan-Arab perspective obviously.
 
Even from that perspective, it may be unhelpful because it aligns things like democracy and modernism with the regional pariah, in the minds of many Arabs. Islamism had become the dominant form of nativist response.
 
Why do you say that?

Well criticizing Israel is a sure fire way of not getting elected in office in America. the Israeli Lobby has ties with lawmakers. This isn't some conspiracy talk, this is actually true.

Take for instance the BDS movement which is actively boycotting Israeli products, especially those coming from illegal settlements. The Israeli lobby, specifically AIPAC is trying to pass legislation to stop companies and universities from boycotting Israel. In essence, it wants to group these movements as Anti-Semitic and bent on Israel's destruction.

It will do this by preventing U.S. companies from participating in the campaign without infringing on Americans’ First Amendment rights to political speech. It will also threaten to cut funding to universities who allow the BDS movement to operate within it's campus. Furthermore, it would also try to make the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership being negotiated between the U.S. and E.U. conditional on whether the E.U. takes action to stop the BDS.

It already has the support of many Republicans.

So yes, if the US really wanted to get serious, it could start classifying Israel as a pariah, similar to South Africa and begin to force it follow international law. As we know, Israel is hard at work to completely destroy the 2 state solution and working on annexing even more territory. US and EU (their biggest supporters) are allowing it to happen.
 
That is nothing new....LULAC and CARE pull the same stuff...I'm not saying that it's right because I don't think it is, but it certainly isn't alone in these tactics...it's just been around longer and its tentacles reach further.
 
The NSA Helped Israel Blackmail Palestinians

i9g87fzevmebaqu2dtyg.jpg


Scores of former members of Israeli military intelligence's very secret and quite elite Unit 8200 have publicly refused to collect information that is "used for political persecution" or "driving parts of Palestinian society against itself." Courteous allies at the NSA, we now know, helped make that spying possible.

The news comes courtesy of the NSA's chief unauthorized biographer, James Bamford, whose three-day Moscow bull session with traitorous notoriety prostitute, Edward Joseph Snowden, was the cover story in last month's issue of WIRED.

Writing Tuesday in the New York Times, Bamford disclosed this alarming new anecdote from his Snowden debrief:

Among his most shocking discoveries, he told me, was the fact that the NSA was routinely passing along the private communications of Americans to a large and very secretive Israeli military organization known as Unit 8200. This transfer of intercepts, he said, included the contents of the communications as well as metadata such as who was calling whom.

Typically, when such sensitive information is transferred to another country, it would first be "minimized," meaning that names and other personally identifiable information would be removed. But when sharing with Israel, the NSA evidently did not ensure that the data was modified in this way.

Mr. Snowden stressed that the transfer of intercepts to Israel contained the communications—email as well as phone calls—of countless Arab- and Palestinian-Americans whose relatives in Israel and the Palestinian territories could become targets based on the communications. "I think that's amazing," he told me. "It's one of the biggest abuses we've seen."


As of last week, exactly 43 ex-members of Unit 8200—many young and active reservists who could theoretically be called again to serve Israel at a moment's notice—passionately agree.

In an act of protest that had been planned well in advance of this summer's brutal bombing campaign in Gaza (which you may have heard killed 2,100 Palestinians and turned Gaza City into the lunar ruins of an ancient alien race), the young members of Unit 8200 drafted a long letter publicly refusing to participate in any further intelligence gathering activities against the Palestinians.

"The Palestinian population under military rule is completely exposed to espionage and surveillance by Israeli intelligence. It is used for political persecution and to create divisions within Palestinian society by recruiting collaborators," the letter says. Adding, "In many cases, intelligence prevents defendants from receiving a fair trial in military courts, as the evidence against them is not revealed."

"Contrary to Israeli citizens or citizens of other countries," whose rights are protected under law, the letter points out, "there's no oversight on methods of intelligence or tracking and the use of intelligence information against the Palestinians, regardless if they are connected to violence or not."

London-based newspaper The Guardian interviewed several of the unit's conscientious objectors under the condition of anonymity—which was requested not out of fear of persecution, but out of the desire to comply with Israeli law. (Only the copies of the letter sent to their unit commander used the objectors' full names.)

The individual accounts made by the former military intelligence agents, published by the Guardian and Israel's Yediot Aharonot newspaper, are numerous and depressingly perverse.

Among the personal statements, agents disclosed that the majority of Unit 8200's operations in Palestine targeted "innocent people unconnected to any military activity." The unit was instructed to keep any personal information potentially embarrassing or damaging to a Palestinian's life, including sexual preferences, extramarital affairs, financial trouble, family illnesses, or anything else that could be "used to extort/blackmail the person and turn them into a collaborator." The private "sex talk" intercepted by Palestinians (in what's becoming a gross trend for these surveillance scandals) were allegedly passed around by certain members of the unit for titters/yucks.

One member, referred to as "D" by the Guardian, formerly a 29-year-old captain who served in the unit for eight years, told the paper that part of his decision to protest came from the dawning realization that his actions were really no different than those of any totalitarian government's secret police.

"It was when I realized that what I was doing was the same job that the intelligence services of every undemocratic regime are doing," he said.

There have been many precursors, both historically and more recently, to this secretive alliance between Israeli and U.S. intelligence agencies. Back in Mad Men times, the CIA's director of counter-intelligence, legendary super-spook James Angleton, practically contracted all of the CIA's North African operations to the Mossad along with a generous aid package, and has often been said to have helped found their agency in 1951. During the more recent disclosures regarding the NSA's (basically illegal) surveillance program STELLAR WIND, agency whistleblowers revealed that two Israeli companies, Verint and Narus, were contracted to manage the actual bugging of America's telecommunications network.

Apart from the Mossad's long, aggressive history of spying on the United States, the arrangement also provoked concerns due to corruption within one of the firms; Verint's founder and former chairman Kobi Alexander was added to the FBI "most wanted list" in 2006 regarding various forms of stock fraud and fought against extradition for many years. Some former agency employees have also reported that a mid-level NSA employee friendly with Israeli intelligence unilaterally decided to hand over advanced analytical and data mining software that the agency had developed internally for its own international eavesdropping operations. (According to a piece by James Bamford in WIRED, that software is now also in the hands of many private Israeli companies.)

In all that context, it's true that this recent news isn't exactly surprising or shocking—the kind of lame, ******** "take" pundits and anonymous commenters always love trotting out to congratulate themselves for their knowledgeable cynicism. (Seriously: Good for you guys.)

What it still is—obviously and regardless of this context—is abhorrent and genuinely scandalous for a country, like Israel, that loves positioning itself as a bastion of democracy in the autocratic Middle East.

Perhaps, we should start looking for some fresh perspectives on how best to resolve this ongoing humanitarian crisis.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/17/o...dit_ty_20140917&nl=opinion&nlid=41252619&_r=1

Well that is very disturbing
 
UN warns over Israeli plan to relocate West Bank Bedouin

Jerusalem (AFP) - The UN's Palestinian refugee agency on Sunday urged the international community to oppose Israeli plans to relocate thousands of Palestinian Bedouin from the central West Bank.

"If such a plan were implemented this would ... give rise to concerns that it amounts to a 'forcible transfer' in contravention of the Fourth Geneva Convention," banning involuntary population relocation in occupied territory, UNRWA Commissioner Gen Pierre Krahenbuhl said.

"It might also make way for further Israeli illegal settlement expansion, further compromising the viability of a two-state solution," he said in a statement.

"I urge the Israeli authorities not to proceed with the transfer ...and I also urge the donor and state community to take a firm stand against it. . . ."

http://news.yahoo.com/un-warns-over-israeli-plan-relocate-west-bank-222039357.html
 
Israel Illegally Seizes More Land in West Bank

Residents of the Wadi Fukin village received eviction notices as Israel plans on further seizing 400 hectares of land.

Wadi Fukin, ocuppied West Bank - Israel recently announced its decision to seize nearly 400 hectares of land in the occupied West Bank, a move anti-settlement activists termed the largest land grab in 30 years.

At the time, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas called on Israel to cancel the appropriation. "This decision will lead to more instability. This will only inflame the situation after the war in Gaza," presidential spokesman Abu Rdainah said.

In a statement published on its website, Peace Now also condemned the land confiscation and said that it would further damage the chance of achieving a lasting peace between Israelis and Palestinians based on a two-state solution.

The Palestinian village of Wadi Fukin sits just west of Bethlehem along the Green Line, and is surrounded on three sides by Israeli settlements that are constantly growing.

Residents of Wadi Fukin were recently handed down eviction notices and had some of their farmlands destroyed, all with the purpose of forcing them to abandon their village. The villagers have refused to leave and now face a lengthy struggle to stay on their land.

Pictures:


rih3.jpg


In 1948, Israel took half of now 82-year-old Hassan's land. He now lives in a cave with his wife. 'It is not enough to take our land, they also want our caves, they want everything. But it is our life,' he said. Israel wants the cave so it can build new settlements on the mountain.

5oy0xi.jpg


This Israeli settlement sits just above the Palestinian village of Wadi Fukin. The settlement discharges sewege water directly on Palestinian farmers' land, ruining the harvest and natural springs.​
 
Is that article from Al Jezeera? Could you post a link?
 
Thanks. Wanted to pass the article along but couldn't find the source of that particular article.
 
Sweden to recognise Palestinian state

291dz4j.jpg


Sweden is to "recognise the state of Palestine", Prime Minister Stefan Lofven has said, the first long-term EU member country to do so.

"The conflict between Israel and Palestine can only be solved with a two-state solution," he said during his inaugural address in parliament.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29479418


Meanwhile:

More than 500 anthropologists join academic boycott of Israel

The signatories said that by "acting in solidarity with Palestinian civil society," they continue "a disciplinary tradition of support for anticolonial and human-rights struggles, itself an important departure from anthropology’s historical complicity with colonialism."

Read more here:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.619314
 
The British Parliament today recognized the Palestinian state. This comes with a health warning. Only the opposition Labour party united behind the motion; the governing Conservative and Liberal parties abstained, on the grounds that the issue was being used as a political football.

The most thoughtful speech, by Robert Halfon, is worth reading (it is short).
 
Provocations and Abuses continue in Israel...




Jewish Settlers Storm and Vandalize Dome of the Rock, Run over Children in Ramallah

Dozens of Jewish settlers on Sunday forced their way into Al-Aqsa Mosque complex in occupied East Jerusalem, a Palestinian guard of the holy site said. "A group of Jewish students stormed the complex along with Israeli troops who wandered into the courtyards and verbally attacked the Palestinian religious students within," the guard, who asked not to be named, told Anadolu Agency. According to the guard, the Israeli police imposed restrictions on the entry of Muslim worshippers into the compound since the early hours of the day.


In another incident, a Jewish settler ran over two Palestinian children near Ramallah in the occupied West Bank. The settler fled the scene after the incident. One of two Palestinian girls that had been run over by the settler earlier Sunday died of her injuries, a Palestinian medical official said Sunday." Enas Khalil,5, succumbed to injuries she sustained when she was hit by a settler's car," Samir Saliba, head of the emergency department in the Ramallah Medical Complex, told Anadolu Agency.

The other girl is now hospitalized in a stable condition, Saliba added.

Source: http://www.worldbulletin.net/world/...-aqsa-run-over-palestinian-children-in-w-bank

Additional sources:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.621319

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/10/19/1337677/--Israeli-Settler-Ran-Over-Two-Palestinian-Girls
 
It's hard for the US to do anything over there politically. Christian zionism in the US is very strong with lots of high-end political ties that prevent any real progress from being made. :/
 
I do hope you are not using "zionism" in its broadest meaning of the right of the state of Israel to exist, because everyone should be a zionist in that regard. It is a fait accompli, the reversal of which would be undesirable and impossible without committing crimes against humanity.

The term "zionist" has become unhelpful. The choice is now between Israeli hegemony or a two state solution. Both approaches require the Jewish homeland in Israel to remain, and are therefore "zionist" in the broad sense.
 
I do hope you are not using "zionism" in its broadest meaning of the right of the state of Israel to exist, because everyone should be a zionist in that regard. It is a fait accompli, the reversal of which would be undesirable and impossible without committing crimes against humanity.

The term "zionist" has become unhelpful. The choice is now between Israeli hegemony or a two state solution. Both approaches require the Jewish homeland in Israel to remain, and are therefore "zionist" in the broad sense.

There is a very specific group/belief system that is actually called Christian Zionism. This belief centers on the misunderstood texts in the bible which declare that we should ALWAYS defend Israel or risk God's "Wrath" and that anyone who isn't totally for Israel (and this includes their taking of the west bank) is the enemy and should be destroyed. They conclude that Israel has a divine right to all land they were "promised"...which is why they are all for Israel's treatment of Palestinians through this divine right.
 
I too find the Christian Right's unquestioning, morally willfully blind support of Israel no matter what, for their own agenda, and indifference to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, disturbing. They're decidedly not helpful in this situation.
 
Applying that to the real world, it is now accepted by all but the genocidally-minded that Israel has a legal and a moral right to exist. That is as good as a divine right for those of us who don't believe in God. The argument then turns to whether the people you describe believe that Israel has the right to more territory or should never be asked to sacrifice any of their existing territory, which is the same as the hegemony/two state debate I cited above.

Edit: If their argument is merely that Israel and Isrealis can do no wrong, then that's just plain stupidity and counter-intuitive bias. Bar Refaeli's cameo in the "fappening" may challenge their assessment of the moral spotlessness of Israelis as judged by Evangelical Christian standards.
 
Last edited:
I don't think Evangelical Christians care about Israelis or Israel in and of itself. They just need Israel to be there for the end of days to be fulfilled.
 
My $.02,

I don't think it was right for Britain to simply slice off chunks of Palestine and give them to Jewish refugees without asking the Palestinians.

BUT, however questionable the creation of modern-day Israel might have been, Israel today has a right to exist. You can't expect Israelis who have been there for generations to up and leave and "go home" to Europe/Russia/America/wherever their ancestors came from.

But what you also can't expect is what some hardline xenophobic Israelis seem to expect, that you can't expect Palestinians whose families have been there for ages to just "go away" somewhere.

The only practically viable and morally justifiable solution is the two-state plan.
 
My $.02,

I don't think it was right for Britain to simply slice off chunks of Palestine and give them to Jewish refugees without asking the Palestinians.

BUT, however questionable the creation of modern-day Israel might have been, Israel today has a right to exist. You can't expect Israelis who have been there for generations to up and leave and "go home" to Europe/Russia/America/wherever their ancestors came from.

But what you also can't expect is what some hardline xenophobic Israelis seem to expect, that you can't expect Palestinians whose families have been there for ages to just "go away" somewhere.

The only practically viable and morally justifiable solution is the two-state plan.

Netanyahu rejects the Two state plan. We just paid his government billions. It's not just the Israelis who are against it, it's their biggest enablers, US and Europe. Until Americans and Europeans begin voting out the enablers, they will continue their apartheid and ethnic cleansing.

Its a war not only on the Palestinians, but on regular US citizens view of Palestine and their perceived or blind apathy towards it. Statements like "They are ALWAYS fighting" and "Right to defend" are thrown around without anyone in today's mainstream media paying attention to the plight of the millions of oppressed people. It's a crisis bigger than ISIL and Al-Qaeda, and a main destabilizer in the region.
 
Last edited:
Applying that to the real world, it is now accepted by all but the genocidally-minded that Israel has a legal and a moral right to exist. That is as good as a divine right for those of us who don't believe in God. The argument then turns to whether the people you describe believe that Israel has the right to more territory or should never be asked to sacrifice any of their existing territory, which is the same as the hegemony/two state debate I cited above.

Edit: If their argument is merely that Israel and Isrealis can do no wrong, then that's just plain stupidity and counter-intuitive bias. Bar Refaeli's cameo in the "fappening" may challenge their assessment of the moral spotlessness of Israelis as judged by Evangelical Christian standards.

I don't think Evangelical Christians care about Israelis or Israel in and of itself. They just need Israel to be there for the end of days to be fulfilled.

I went to a Christian Private school that was run by Baptists and Christian Zionists and our Bible Studies teacher and our history teacher and a few others subscribed to the belief that if America doesn't support Israel in all that they do that God would punish America. That all who oppose them oppose God. That peace in the Middle East is not possible because Jesus is supposed to bring about peace and that can't happen until he returns. And they routinely told us that Israel's creation in 1948 was the fulfillment of a prophecy and that the end times were near.

My school isn't the only place you can find these sorta people in the U.S. The Christian Zionist movement and those who adhere to it believe that by supporting Israel it will somehow make the Second Coming happen sooner rather than later. It's a very warped lens through which they are viewing the political situation in the Middle East, and it's detrimental to peace in the region.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
202,262
Messages
22,074,285
Members
45,876
Latest member
kedenlewis
Back
Top
monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"