The Joker Thread - Part 1

[hellblazer103]

The JOKER STRIKES AH-GAIN! ...

.... The joker strikes a-GAIN .....

 

[hellblazer103]

And while I appreciated Joaquin Phoenix's performance, there's virtually no correlation at all between his Joker and the one in the comics, other than maybe the failed standup comedian element.

Joker was a better adaptation of The Killing Joke than the actual adaptation of The Killing Joke

Phillips also mentioned taking some influence from the story of the actual Gwynplaine character in The Man Who Laughs, of a man undergoing a traumatic event in childhood causing him to have a "permanent smile" and "smiling through the pain" (the addition of the Pseudobulbar Affect in Phoenix's character being a twist on the "permanent smile " concept in general).

Yes, I'm aware he took a lot from King of Comedy/Taxi Driver, but .... Are either of those REALLY that far of a stretch in terms of being influences for a Joker story???

 

[AndyTrevino]

Maaaybe for a creepy opening montage where he's getting himself all gussied up

 

[Captain Tired]

Wouldn't Ziggy Stardust be more appropriate?

'Ziggy really sang,
screwed-up eyes and screwed-down hairdo
Like some cat from Japan,
he could lick 'em by smiling
He could leave 'em to hang
He came on so loaded man,
well-hung and snow white tan.'

 

[TheVileOne]

Joker was a better adaptation of The Killing Joke than the actual adaptation of The Killing Joke

Phillips also mentioned taking some influence from the story of the actual Gwynplaine character in The Man Who Laughs, of a man undergoing a traumatic event in childhood causing him to have a "permanent smile" and "smiling through the pain" (the addition of the Pseudobulbar Affect in Phoenix's character being a twist on the "permanent smile " concept in general).

Yes, I'm aware he took a lot from King of Comedy/Taxi Driver, but .... Are either of those REALLY that far of a stretch in terms of being influences for a Joker story???

Not really. There are only a couple of thematic similarities. The story is really nothing like the Killing Joke other than there is an origin story about a failed comedian becoming an unhinged murderer who is also called the Joker. Also, the possibility of Joker being an unreliable narrator and not being sure if everything you are seeing from his flashbacks is real. Except the movie did it more explicitly. There's no "one bad day" thing.

Killing Joke movie's major screwup was making Bruce and Barbara having an affair...which was...ick...

Now personally, I don't like the idea of Bruce being this weirdly celibate monk. But I mean, having him romance Barbara is again, ick. But that's why you have Talia and Catwoman to tempt him.

 

[AndyTrevino]

Wouldn't Ziggy Stardust be more appropriate?

'Ziggy really sang,
screwed-up eyes and screwed-down hairdo
Like some cat from Japan,
he could lick 'em by smiling
He could leave 'em to hang
He came on so loaded man,
well-hung and snow white tan.'

Lyrically, sure. But I also like the flamboyance of Moonage Daydream so I think that one could also be appropriate. I honestly keep envisioning a few different Joker scenes set to various songs to get those dark comedy vibes that he's known for.

 

[Captain Tired]

The lyric 'Like a Leper Messiah' is also a term that seems appropriate for the likes of Phoenix's Joker. Standing on that ambulance like an inverted Christ the Redeemer.

 

[AndyTrevino]

The lyric 'Like a Leper Messiah' is also a term that seems appropriate for the likes of Phoenix's Joker. Standing on that ambulance like an inverted Christ the Redeemer.

I loved that movie so much.

 

[AndyTrevino]

A few Joker scenes I envision set to music for an ironic darkly comedic effect:

Him doing a dance routine similar to Joaquin's stair dance, but cruelly maiming people along the way, like jabbing a guy in the stomach with his cane, set to "Mony Mony" by Billy Idol.

A montage showing his horrifying rise to power and Gotham becoming even crappier intercut with scenes of him dancing, set to "The Killing Moon" by Echo and the Bunnymen.

A scene where he either dances with a corpse or tortures someone while singing along to "Golden Brown" by The Stranglers.

A torture scene where he has "Make No Mistake" by Psyche playing on a radio.

A scene where he terrorizes some poor family, singing along to "Bennie and The Jets".

Possibly an ending scene similar to the origin movie where he sings along to "I've Got You Under My Skin" by Frank Sinatra, laughing to himself intercut with some nightmarish Batman encounters through his own eyes very similar to Arkham Origins.

Maaaybe a scene where he and his gang "clear out" a building set to "Helter Skelter" by The Beatles.

 

[hellblazer103]

Not really. There are only a couple of thematic similarities. The story is really nothing like the Killing Joke other than there is an origin story about a failed comedian becoming an unhinged murderer who is also called the Joker. Also, the possibility of Joker being an unreliable narrator and not being sure if everything you are seeing from his flashbacks is real. Except the movie did it more explicitly. There's no "one bad day" thing.

the line "I had a bad day" does make it in there, tbf

I didn't say it was exact. But it expresses the themes of that story much better. TDK does too honestly . And I like that they flesh it out to not just a bad day, but rather a series of bad experiences that further and further push him over the edge . It actually might even be a better origin than TKJ's one in some capacity.

 

[TheVileOne]

the line "I had a bad day" does make it in there, tbf

I didn't say it was exact. But it expresses the themes of that story much better. TDK does too honestly . And I like that they flesh it out to not just a bad day, but rather a series of bad experiences that further and further push him over the edge . It actually might even be a better origin than TKJ's one in some capacity.

I respectfully disagree. To me it's simply a completely different take on Joker's origin. There's no Red Hood. There's no pregnant wife. There's no Ace Chemicals, and there's no Batman creating The Joker. No Commissioner Gordon. It's nothing like The Killing Joke really.

 

[Captain Tired]

It's still a great potential origin, whatever the similarities to any other works.

 

[hellblazer103]

I respectfully disagree. To me it's simply a completely different take on Joker's origin. There's no Red Hood. There's no pregnant wife. There's no Ace Chemicals, and there's no Batman creating The Joker. No Commissioner Gordon. It's nothing like The Killing Joke really.

And I'm fine with most of that.

However, I'd argue Batman and Joker's lives are quite deeply intertwined in this origin. Arthur is motivated to find the truth about Thomas Wayne and if he's truly his father, which brings him to that gate and that fateful encounter with young Bruce and Alfred. Arthur's actions later on inspire the chaos that would lead to Batman, as Bruce's parents are murdered the same time he awakens from the car crash. Born on the same night. They create each other, almost .

 

[Captain Tired]

Much like in Batman '89.

 

[hellblazer103]

Much like in Batman '89.

Yeah, but I actually kinda prefer Joker's take to just directly making him the Waynes' killer. In Joker, he's not just the one guy who kills them and gets away. He's basically the root of the escalation of the decadence of the entire city itself that Batman stands for .

 

[TheVileOne]

And I'm fine with most of that.

However, I'd argue Batman and Joker's lives are quite deeply intertwined in this origin. Arthur is motivated to find the truth about Thomas Wayne and if he's truly his father, which brings him to that gate and that fateful encounter with young Bruce and Alfred. Arthur's actions later on inspire the chaos that would lead to Batman, as Bruce's parents are murdered the same time he awakens from the car crash. Born on the same night. They create each other, almost .

Still really completely different from Killing Joke. Not to mention, the film dresses down Thomas Wayne as like a bourgeoisie elitist who doesn't truly care for his fellow man.

 

[Captain Tired]

Yeah, but I actually kinda prefer Joker's take to just directly making him the Waynes' killer. In Joker, he's not just the one guy who kills them and gets away. He's basically the root of the escalation of the decadence of the entire city itself that Batman stands for .

No I absolutely agree. I was initially going to say much the same, but I didn't want to risk sounding long-winded. Joker does indeed pull the idea off in a somewhat more subtle and agreeable manner. Less cliche, too. I don't usually like the idea of the heroes and villains origins being intertwined, but '89 and Joker both somehow work for me.

 

[hellblazer103]

Still really completely different from Killing Joke. Not to mention, the film dresses down Thomas Wayne as like a bourgeoisie elitist who doesn't truly care for his fellow man.

Because that's how Arthur sees it . But from Thomas' perspective, he has to deal with this weird stalker guy, who's the son of a psychotic woman who worked for him decades ago, who put his hands on his son and his fingers in his mouth. Of course he's gonna sock him. The film is about having empathy for your fellow man, but that extends to Arthur himself as he lacks empathy when he commits his own heinous acts, and thinks it all revolves around him, that he's the sole victim of it all.

Maybe Thomas is just a rich *****e, maybe there's more to him. But Arthur doesn't really consider that.

And dude ... It's whatever to me on how "different" it is lol. You're concerned about surface level accuracy, I'm concerned in keeping the thematic elements and essence intact

 

[TheVileOne]

Because that's how Arthur sees it . But from Thomas' perspective, he has to deal with this weird stalker guy, who's the son of a psychotic woman who worked for him decades ago, who put his hands on his son and his fingers in his mouth. Of course he's gonna sock him. The film is about having empathy for your fellow man, but that extends to Arthur himself as he lacks empathy when he commits his own heinous acts, and thinks it all revolves around him, that he's the sole victim of it all.

Maybe Thomas is just a rich *****e, maybe there's more to him. But Arthur doesn't really consider that.

And dude ... It's whatever to me on how "different" it is lol. You're concerned about surface level accuracy, I'm concerned in keeping the thematic elements and essence intact

Thematically, I only see a couple similarities. I mean for something to be a superior adaptation, it has to marry both the story details and the thematic material.

 

[hellblazer103]

When I say "better", I do mean that it expresses the themes better, but I also mean that it's simply much more watchable lol

 

[AndyTrevino]

I know we've discussed a few non-American or English actors for the role, and I haven't seen him act so this post probably doesn't matter, but I think Matthias Schweighöfer has a pretty good look for the character and is apparently considered to be among the more promising young actors in Germany:

 

[AndyTrevino]

If they wanna bring back Joaquin as a separate, permawhite Joker, which is unlikely, I wouldn't really complain. But at the same time I don't want the poor guy to destroy himself to get in shape for the role again. Too many what-ifs for me.

 

[AndyTrevino]

Honestly, I don't even care about the age thing. If they were to cast him, I'd suspend my disbelief. Hell, maybe the digital de-aging process will have advanced enough by the time the Joker appears?

I meant to reply to this earlier, but that's a very good point. Not sure if they'd do it, but that could work if they want him for the role but wanna make him look a bit younger.

 

[Captain Tired]

For me, they wouldn't even have to de-age him.

Always found the idea of an older Joker to be quite interesting.

Not that I want Dafoe in the part. I'm sure he'd do well, but I want an unknown.

 

[AndyTrevino]

For me, they wouldn't even have to de-age him.

Always found the idea of an older Joker to be quite interesting.

Not that I want Dafoe in the part. I'm sure he'd do well, but I want an unknown.

There is something to be said for an older-looking Joker, obviously. For some reason though I like to think of him as looking a bit younger, like in his 30s maybe. Not sure why.