The Joker Thread - Part 1

[OutOfBoose]

Regardless, it doesn't negate the fact that the statement is completely contradicted by the action that follows it. Waller makes a statement that is proven to be untrue only seconds later. And that facet cannot be denied.

Please. Seconds later after the "can't swim" line, she pretends to be drowned to attack Batman. That lines means nothing, except for being intentional or unintentional gag.

 

[King23DC]

Please. Seconds later after the "can't swim" line, she pretends to be drowned to attack Batman. That lines means nothing, except for being intentional or unintentional gag.

Exactly.

Buddy has a gold medal in mental gymnastics, trying to justify the terrible characterization and acting of Ayer / Leto's Joker.

 

[DeadStroke]

Regardless, it doesn't negate the fact that the statement is completely contradicted by the action that follows it. Waller makes a statement that is proven to be untrue only seconds later. And that facet cannot be denied.

Waller also sent Enchantress after a Metahuman/Incubus and had the Suicide Squad basically used as a means to getting her to safety. Which means she never really intended for the others to fight Metahumans.

I still don't like the line. However, its possible this was another example of Waller being a liar.

 

[Wise]

Hopefully Reeves convinces WB to redo the Joker. Even if Leto comes back the characterisation should be completely different.

 

[FunkMiller]

Hopefully Reeves convinces WB to redo the Joker. Even if Leto comes back the characterisation should be completely different.

I see no reason why they can't. Joker changes so much in the comic anyway. You could quite easily weave his changing his look again into the plot of the film. In SS he was playing at being a gangster rapper, but got bored with that, and changed his look again.

 

[Wise]

I see no reason why they can't. Joker changes so much in the comic anyway. You could quite easily weave his changing his look again into the plot of the film. In SS he was playing at being a gangster rapper, but got bored with that, and changed his look again.

Exactly what I was thinking. Joker's psychopathic nature and love of theatrics means he is very easy to change as a character without it coming across as jarring.

 

[The Joker]

Waller also sent Enchantress after a Metahuman/Incubus and had the Suicide Squad basically used as a means to getting her to safety. Which means she never really intended for the others to fight Metahumans.

I still don't like the line. However, its possible this was another example of Waller being a liar.

Waller didn't lie about that. Having the Squad protect her in an Incubus controlled city is using them to take on metahuman forces. Otherwise what use are they if they're attacked by it? Might as well have the Teletubbies protecting her. And as we saw the Squad handled the Incubus creatures easily.

 

[DeadStroke]

Waller didn't lie about that. Having the Squad protect her in an Incubus controlled city is using them to take on metahuman forces. Otherwise what use are they if they're attacked by it? Might as well have the Teletubbies protecting her. And as we saw the Squad handled the Incubus creatures easily.

Yes, but SHE never sent them after Enchantress or Incubus. Her first concern was her safety and they were all going to leave. It was simply a rescue mission not a defeat the enemy mission.

Her mission statement was to use them to stop the biggest threats. She never used the displayed those intentions with the locked up squad.

Also SHE never knew the extent of the powers of El Diablo. Without him they never win that fight.

 

[The Joker]

Yes, but SHE never sent them after Enchantress or Incubus. Her first concern was her safety and they were all going to leave. It was simply a rescue mission not a defeat the enemy mission.

So what? Did the mission involve dealing with high risk situations? Yes. So what difference does it make if it was a rescue mission, a protection mission, or a direct assault.

She didn't lie. She assembled this team to deal with metahuman level threats, and that's what they did.

Her mission statement was to use them to stop the biggest threats.

No, her mission statement was fighting fire with fire. Using the Squad as disposable assets for high risk missions. Which is exactly what she did sending them into Midway City when it was under the control of an Incubus and populated with it's creatures.

She never used the displayed those intentions with the locked up squad.

What do you mean she never displayed it with the locked up squad?

Also SHE never knew the extent of the powers of El Diablo. Without him they never win that fight.

That doesn't make her liar because she was ignorant of how powerful El Diablo was.

 

[metaphysician]

Waller also sent Enchantress after a Metahuman/Incubus and had the Suicide Squad basically used as a means to getting her to safety. Which means she never really intended for the others to fight Metahumans.

I still don't like the line. However, its possible this was another example of Waller being a liar.

Which is one of the problems with Suicide Squad. Its basically impossible to tell which parts are intentionally "Waller is a liar" or "Waller is evil", versus "Waller is incompetent." Which is really grating to me, because above all else, Waller should *never* be incompetent.

That said, it'd work a lot better if she emphasized that the Squad wasn't *only* for dealing with Superman and Superman-level threats. There's plenty of room for a metahuman to be an impossibly painful problem for conventional police and military, but also be challengeable by the lower tier Suicide Squad. Especially with an open statement of "And also, they are totally expendable".

 

[2kt09]

In SS he was playing at being a gangster rapper, but got bored with that, and changed his look again.

Or commit to what he was barely playing.
There's also more to a rapper than just looking a certain way.

 

[DeadStroke]

So what? Did the mission involve dealing with high risk situations? Yes. So what difference does it make if it was a rescue mission, a protection mission, or a direct assault.

She didn't lie. She assembled this team to deal with metahuman level threats, and that's what they did.



No, her mission statement was fighting fire with fire. Using the Squad as disposable assets for high risk missions. Which is exactly what she did sending them into Midway City when it was under the control of an Incubus and populated with it's creatures.



What do you mean she never displayed it with the locked up squad?



That doesn't make her liar because she was ignorant of how powerful El Diablo was.

After Enchantress was a failure she didn't send the rest of the squad to stop her. She sent them to save her.

Also she said clearly we would use these people to stop the next Superman (or one of that power, but is evil)

The only one she sent after the big bad (to them) was Enchantress. Once that failed it was all about saving herself. Yes if Incubus happened to intervene during the rescue mission they would be disposable assets. However, they were never sent AFTER the villain (which is the irony and one of the better story points by Ayer. Since Waller is the villain of the movie)

Enchantress was the selling point. The rest of the squad were just to get more people Waller could have under her control.

People BS and manipulate all the time. Especially people with power.

There are major flaws in Suicide Squad. Taking everything Amanda Waller says as fact is

 

[DeadStroke]

Which is one of the problems with Suicide Squad. Its basically impossible to tell which parts are intentionally "Waller is a liar" or "Waller is evil", versus "Waller is incompetent." Which is really grating to me, because above all else, Waller should *never* be incompetent.

That said, it'd work a lot better if she emphasized that the Squad wasn't *only* for dealing with Superman and Superman-level threats. There's plenty of room for a metahuman to be an impossibly painful problem for conventional police and military, but also be challengeable by the lower tier Suicide Squad. Especially with an open statement of "And also, they are totally expendable".

I have no problem with Waller being manipulative and out for herself. She hustled everybody into believing these guys were of good use and they really weren't. Its supposed to be the effect of "well she didn't plan on these guys stopping the threat, but they did anyway." They made the choice to do that. Not Waller.

I agree that making it clear that these other threats wouldn't be able to combat a top level threat would have went a long way. However, they were carving out a story where the pos underdogs saved the day when nobody asked them.

To me this is another example of a good idea, but you really gotta execute it better. Ayer really needed to make a tighter script. He could have helped himself by just making it a more grounded story. Something that he's admitted.
There are other flaws, but not worth getting into.

Or commit to what he was barely playing.
There's also more to a rapper than just looking a certain way.

Explain?

 

[2kt09]

Explain?

I was looking forward to the gangster portrayal.
There wasn't much to it outside of superficial monikers: the posse, the guns, the occasional torture
Of course, I understand the intended limited screen presence.
I doubt the "rapper" perception was something they were going to develop, but
making him a lyricist in joke delivery is something refreshing.

 

[The Joker]

After Enchantress was a failure she didn't send the rest of the squad to stop her. She sent them to save her.

Exactly, because she was trying to cover up her involvement in the Enchantress mess. That's why she shot all the people in the room. She had to get herself out of there.

This doesn't make what she said at the beginning to the government a lie. She didn't predict Enchantress would go rogue and turn into a major threat against them.

Also she said clearly we would use these people to stop the next Superman (or one of that power, but is evil)

Which they were. She didn't count on Enchantress turning against them. She thought she had her under control because she had her heart.

The only one she sent after the big bad (to them) was Enchantress.

Because she is the most powerful. Nowhere in the movie is it implied the rest of the Squad wasn't going to be used to aid in this assault.

Once that failed it was all about saving herself.

Because Waller was more concerned about herself than humanity. She was only interested in absolving herself of any link to the Enchantress mess by getting herself out of there safely, and killing any potential witnesses who could shaft her.

Enchantress was the selling point. The rest of the squad were just to get more people Waller could have under her control.

Pull the other one. Waller could have entire trained armies under her control if it was just about having people to control, who would be 50 times easier to control and rely on than a hit man, a fire freak, the Joker's gf, a crocodile man etc.

People BS and manipulate all the time. Especially people with power.

You have no basis to believe she was lying. She didn't make up any BS about the rest of the Squad members when she was selling them to the government, so why would she with Harley? If she didn't really believe Harley was up to the job that she had to make up crap about her, she wouldn't use her in the first place.

You certainly have no basis to believe to she never intended them to deal with metahuman threats. She had them directly dealing with metahuman threats.

There are major flaws in Suicide Squad.

First sensible thing you've said

Taking everything Amanda Waller says as fact is

If she was lying about anything, it would be shown. Otherwise how do you establish a character is a liar if you don't show the audience.

 

[Wildcard]

Please. Seconds later after the "can't swim" line, she pretends to be drowned to attack Batman. That lines means nothing, except for being intentional or unintentional gag.

You are aware that's what I've been saying the entire time, right?

Exactly.

Buddy has a gold medal in mental gymnastics, trying to justify the terrible characterization and acting of Ayer / Leto's Joker.

Outside of elementary school insults to people who disagree with you, I'm really starting to wonder what's your real contribution to anything.

 

[OutOfBoose]

You are aware that's what I've been saying the entire time, right?

I'm aware that you're saying what Waller said is untrue, and it's proven by the line "Pudding, I can't swim". Which is not true, because she's actually shown to be quite fearless moments later, when she tries to kill Batman underwater. Waller isn't lying or isn't making **** up. Try to pay attention next time.

 

[DeadStroke]

Exactly, because she was trying to cover up her involvement in the Enchantress mess. That's why she shot all the people in the room. She had to get herself out of there.

This doesn't make what she said at the beginning to the government a lie. She didn't predict Enchantress would go rogue and turn into a major threat against them.



Which they were. She didn't count on Enchantress turning against them. She thought she had her under control because she had her heart.



Because she is the most powerful. Nowhere in the movie is it implied the rest of the Squad wasn't going to be used to aid in this assault.



Because Waller was more concerned about herself than humanity. She was only interested in absolving herself of any link to the Enchantress mess by getting herself out of there safely, and killing any potential witnesses who could shaft her.



Pull the other one. Waller could have entire trained armies under her control if it was just about having people to control, who would be 50 times easier to control and rely on than a hit man, a fire freak, the Joker's gf, a crocodile man etc.



You have no basis to believe she was lying. She didn't make up any BS about the rest of the Squad members when she was selling them to the government, so why would she with Harley? If she didn't really believe Harley was up to the job that she had to make up crap about her, she wouldn't use her in the first place.

You certainly have no basis to believe to she never intended them to deal with metahuman threats. She had them directly dealing with metahuman threats.



First sensible thing you've said



If she was lying about anything, it would be shown. Otherwise how do you establish a character is a liar if you don't show the audience.

Not everything has to be shown.

You're getting close to saying some sensible things too. t:

Good job, good effort. I agree to disagree. Carry on.

 

[Wildcard]

I'm aware that you're saying what Waller said is untrue, and it's proven by the line "Pudding, I can't swim". Which is not true, because she's actually shown to be quite fearless moments later, when she tries to kill Batman underwater. Waller isn't lying or isn't making **** up. Try to pay attention next time.

Erm, no, Harley trying to take a swipe at Batman doesn't make her fearless and it doesn't prove Waller's statement is true. How can someone be fearless after blatantly showing fear? I'm not the one who needs to pay attention next time.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Erm, no, Harley trying to take a swipe at Batman doesn't make her fearless and it doesn't prove Waller's statement is true. How can someone be fearless after blatantly showing fear? I'm not the one who needs to pay attention next time.

What does it make her? Instead of panicking and trying to get out of the car, she showed incredible amount of control and fearlessness...

 

[The Joker]

Exactly. Someone with a genuine fear of the water would have been freaking out under that water, not cunningly pretending to be knocked out so she can stab Batman with a knife.

 

[Polux]

You guys having an issue with Harley putting "taking a shot at the bat" over her own survival...?? You guys know she's crazy, right...??

 

[shauner111]

Exactly. Someone with a genuine fear of the water would have been freaking out under that water, not cunningly pretending to be knocked out so she can stab Batman with a knife.

Thr last time I came into this thread, I was thinking the exact same thing and just decided to keep my mouth shut. She would be in a total panic.

 

[Luke234]

Where was that said?



That doesn't make sense to me though. She didn't have to BS about any of the other Squad members when she was selling them to the Government. If she didn't really believe in Harley's capability for this team that she had to make up BS about her to sound more suitable, why would she want her on it in the first place?

Those narrative flashbacks for each of the Squad members by Waller were exposition pieces to the audience about all these new characters. The audience was being told Harley is more crazy and fearless.

I think there's plenty to pick apart but I don't think this is one of them.

 

[The Joker]

You guys having an issue with Harley putting "taking a shot at the bat" over her own survival...?? You guys know she's crazy, right...??

No issue with that. It's the silly notion that Harley was afraid because she can't swim when she was a cool as a cucumber under that water, using it to her advantage to attack Batman on the sly.

Thr last time I came into this thread, I was thinking the exact same thing and just decided to keep my mouth shut. She would be in a total panic.

Exactly.

I think there's plenty to pick apart but I don't think this is one of them.

Thanks for sharing that. Your detailed reasoning behind this belief has won me over.