The Joker Thread - Part 1

[CaptainWagner]

So, after some very hectic weeks and several canceled viewing plans, I finally saw The Batman, then went back to watch the deleted scene I'd been desperately avoiding for so long now. I definitely think it was wise to cut it. What we got in the final movie was the perfect introduction. I like what we hear from Koeghan so far. Not fully sold on the face, but we'll see how it turns out once his big moment comes.

 

[BMW 224]

View attachment 54652

Jesus...

Beautiful.

 

[chintai80]

i'm ok with barry's look for the joker here, it separates him from the pack.
but i get why people might not like it - it's very different and gruesome from the quintessential joker look.
but personality wise, from what we got in the movie and deleted scene, he IS very much the comic book joker.
and that's the best part about this.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

This was an interesting watch.

 

[BMW 224]

This was an interesting watch.

Wow it's rare for me to ever fully disagree with this guy.

Barry Keoangh isn't aping Ledger his dialogue and how the scene is shot is fantastic and there's no way in hell that it's comparable to the infamously horrible "reach around scene" seems to be having fun from I can tell.

If you want a BTAS Joker just say it and don't try to bring every other take down first.

I used to have the same opinion about Joaquin Phoenix Joker movie but although the movie itself is fine Phoenix Joker has grown on me alot personally and is very original.


Carmeon Monahan is a great "joker" too but he's not some wholly original standard to strive for.

 

[C Prometheus]

This was an interesting watch.

I had a really hard time working my way through that video personally.

I already broke down my thoughts on this video essay and why I disagree with FilmSpeak on this in this quoted post below.

I typically really enjoy watching FilmSpeak's video essays and did my best to go in with an open mind on his opinions pertaining to Barry's Joker. His previous essay on The Batman was great, as were his videos on why filmmakers gravitate to Batman and on Batman Returns. And I'll definitely give him credit where it's due in acknowledging other performances like Michael Emerson's in the animated adaptation of TDKR and Jerome and Jeremiah in Gotham!

But I really had to take breaks throughout this twenty minute video, because as it went on, I really think his personal biases on several key parts are drastically coloring his opinion on Barry's Joker and the mere seven or so minutes of screen time he's had in the role so far to the point of reaching a bit beyond the pale. Mind you, his opinions and general stances are absolutely valid and I did my part to keep coming back to the video and listen to his argument through.

But then FilmSpeak opts to wax lyrical about how the prosthetics are causing Barry Keoghan to not emote or express enough on camera. This thought is a mind-boggling conclusion to come to when only going off of a five minute scene, one where the whole point of the camera work and directing is to have Barry emoting more than normal in order to pierce through the proverbial veil of a shallow depth of field to create a distinctive and living silhouette.

"Why aren't Barry and Matt Reeves doing anything new and original with Joker in this scene?" FilmSpeak asks, as if we've seen films do the Clarice-Hannibal type interrogations with Batman and Joker before. And then he goes on to acknowledge and credit how Reeves has the Joker act as the proverbial eyes of clarity in the cacophonous sea of perspectives and wayward vigilantes caught up in their own hype- and the inherent comedy to be found in that distinction... but then FilmSpeak adds on, "But come on, why can't he be a clown or a guy with makeup or just green hair?"

Long story short, FilmSpeak's primary problem seems to really just be the design. And again, it's perfectly fine to dislike the design! It's an acquired taste for sure. But the arguments he brings here feel disconnected and self-contradicting with this detail in perspective. Because while the writing of the scene is too on the nose with giving away the mystery overarching the film and Bruce's character arc, as a conversation between Batman and Joker goes, we haven't seen anything on film quite like it before. And it's a strong take on the dynamic between the two characters beyond just "Oh hey, look at this one guy, he's so crazy!"

Part of the scene's brilliance to me is how quiet and reserved Pattinson plays Batman throughout the scene. There's an unusual gentleness present with Batman here, even as the conversation flips against him and Joker starts prodding at him instead of analyzing Riddler. Compare that with how immediately tense and on edge Bale plays the whole of the Interrogation Scene in TDK.

This Joker is terrifying because as FilmSpeak rightly notes (but doesn't seem to fully process to himself), he's actually not just "crazy." He's brilliantly perceptive and manipulative. There's a subtlety present in the writing and performance from Barry that really speaks to me- but even I know that I can't just go around crowning Barry as the all-time great Joker or even remotely a serious contender for the crown off merely one five minute scene. But for all of the hooplah about how he's just ripping off Heath Ledger, I find it odd how the things that are sticking with me so much are what make this Barry stand out apart from the previous actors so far.

Obviously though, your mileage may vary!

Wow it's rare for me to ever fully disagree with this guy.

Barry Keoangh isn't aping Ledger his dialogue and how the scene is shot is fantastic and there's no way in hell that it's comparable to the infamously horrible "reach around scene" seems to be having fun from I can tell.

If you want a BTAS Joker just say it and don't try to bring every other take down first.

I used to have the same opinion about Joaquin Phoenix Joker movie but although the movie itself is fine Phoenix Joker has grown on me alot personally and is very original.

Carmeon Monahan is a great "joker" too but he's not some wholly original standard to strive for.

Yeah, I really think this is starting to become a pattern online for some folks. And granted, I understand. BTAS Joker rules and if you've spent a long time waiting to see a live action depiction of the character more in line with that take, your patience is going to run out eventually.

 

[AndyTrevino]

The Arkham show is definitely featuring Barry's Joker in some capacity.

Shauner and I have an idea: Maybe the show ends with him escaping, he's gone for almost the entirety of the second film, and comes back for the third film as a younger, fully-fledged Joker

 

[Art Vandelay]

Speaking of, did Shauner like the movie? He seems to be avoiding the forum.

 

[DeadlyWest]

Speaking of, did Shauner like the movie? He seems to be avoiding the forum.

Far as I can tell, he absolutely adored it. Gave it a raving review and 5 stars on Letterboxd (every Batman movie previously has never gotten higher than 4.5). Make of that what you will

 

[WayneMB]

Speaking of, did Shauner like the movie? He seems to be avoiding the forum.

i think he was banned late last year. not sure tho.

 

[BMW 224]

i think he was banned late last year. not sure tho.

Was it permanent ?

 

[DeadlyWest]

Pretty sure it was just until the movie released

 

[AndyTrevino]

His ban lifts in a couple weeks

 

[WayneMB]

His ban lifts in a couple weeks

cool, he seemed really nice in my time spent here.

 

[Art Vandelay]

His ban lifts in a couple weeks

So he was banned? Yeah, he ain't coming back. He was pretty annoyed over his previous ban, he might just decide it's not worth it.

 

[Marvel united]

I had a really hard time working my way through that video personally.

I already broke down my thoughts on this video essay and why I disagree with FilmSpeak on this in this quoted post below.



Obviously though, your mileage may vary!



Yeah, I really think this is starting to become a pattern online for some folks. And granted, I understand. BTAS Joker rules and if you've spent a long time waiting to see a live action depiction of the character more in line with that take, your patience is going to run out eventually.

You make some good points in this post, and you tactically break down every point Filmspeak raises in the video. I appreciate and admire the passion

But I do do disagree with some points, and I think you're hitting the nail on the head with that last point. I think what's happening here, is that some people are getting tired of seeing the Joker presented a certain way; firmly in the Ledger framework-- face paint, scars, slow talking nasally voice, lip smacking etc. I disagree with Filmspeak in that Jerome felt unique (I didn't get any Bowie vibes), because I felt Monaghan was also channeling Ledger's in some parts.

What's rubbing me the wrong way about Keoghan, is that I don't think I've ever seen an actor so blatantly and at the same time, so poorly, imitate Ledger's performance. I'm genuinely confused as to how some people are not seeing the obvious Ledger-isms in Keoghan's acting choices.

On top of being a pirated Heath Ledger in burn victim makeup, everything else about the performance just feels so forced & fake, like stock "crazy person". The more I sit with it, the more I dislike it. It feels like it belongs in a fan film.

I'm just tired of seeing the Joker presented in this mold. At this point, something closer to TAS would've been wholly unique. Or hell, maybe even something like The Dark Knight Returns:




"BATMAN, DARLING". I would've loved to have seen Reeves fully embrace the Bowie influences, as well as the homoerotic undertones to Batman & Joker's relationship.

Or maybe something like Joker: Killer Smile

The Joker is reinvented into this Ted Bundy-like figure; a monster wearing the (metaphorical) mask of a calm, collected, and almost hypnotically charismatic man. It's like a flip of a switch



I feel a take like this would've fit Reeves' universe quite well, and been deeply terrifying--

Instead of teenage Heath Ledger with elephant man syndrome.

 

[DeadlyWest]

You make some good points in this post, and you tactically break down every point Filmspeak raises in the video. I appreciate and admire the passion

But I do do disagree with some points, and I think you're hitting the nail on the head with that last point. I think what's happening here, is that some people are getting tired of seeing the Joker presented a certain way; firmly in the Ledger framework-- face paint, scars, slow talking nasally voice, lip smacking etc. I disagree with Filmspeak in that Jerome felt unique (I didn't get any Bowie vibes), because I felt Monaghan was also channeling Ledger's in some parts.

What's rubbing me the wrong way about Keoghan, is that I don't think I've ever seen an actor so blatantly and at the same time, so poorly, imitate Ledger's performance. I'm genuinely confused as to how some people are not seeing the obvious Ledger-isms in Keoghan's acting choices.

On top of being a pirated Heath Ledger in burn victim makeup, everything else about the performance just feels so forced & fake, like stock "crazy person". The more I sit with it, the more I dislike it. It feels like it belongs in a fan film.

I'm just tired of seeing the Joker presented in this mold. At this point, something closer to TAS would've been wholly unique. Or hell, maybe even something like The Dark Knight Returns:
View attachment 54672

View attachment 54673

"BATMAN, DARLING". I would've loved to have seen Reeves fully embrace the Bowie influences, as well as the homoerotic undertones to Batman & Joker's relationship.

Or maybe something like Joker: Killer Smile
View attachment 54674
The Joker is reinvented into this Ted Bundy-like figure; a monster wearing thr (metaphorical) mask of a calm, collected, and almost hypnotically charismatic man. It's like a flip of a switch

View attachment 54675

I feel a take like this would've fit Reeves' universe quite well, and been deeply terrifying--

Instead of teenage Heath with elephant man syndrome.

The scene basically starts with Barry's Joker making homo-erotic suggestions at Batman that sound like they came straight out of Dark Knight Returns.

I feel like a weird thing I've noticed recently is that whenever a Joker actor just...talks without being overly flamboyant about it ala Hamill, people attribute that to ripping off Ledger. Beyond a few select ticks here and there, that's all Barry's Joker really does which I've seen be attributed to Ledger. Which I think is kinda silly as that as a concept can more or less be found as early as Dark Knight Returns. If Barry went the exact opposite direction, it wouldn't be seen as unique. People would think he was just ripping off Hamill. It's lose lose.

 

[BMW 224]

So he was banned? Yeah, he ain't coming back. He was pretty annoyed over his previous ban, he might just decide it's not worth it.

He will probably come back around when the spin of shows or sequel details come out if anything.

 

[Boom]

Keoghan: *uses his natural speaking voice*

Fans: "Ledger ripoff!"

Keoghan:

 

[Rick190293]

Unfortunately I felt Keoghan was a little bit forced too... of course, my impression. When you have a characterization so impactful like Ledger, it's hard to come with something fresh and make a great first impression. Anyway, I think Barry has a lot of potential, looking foward to his evolution.

 

[DeadlyWest]

Overall I think trying to expect something radically new when we've had 4 vastly different Jokers (with only 3 actually being good) in the last 50 years is setting yourself up for disappointment a little bit.

This is a character that's 80 years old. The fact that we even got those 4 and they're considered vastly different to each other is honestly a bit of a miracle considering the character honestly hasn't radically changed other than getting edgier since the 80s. But I think we've reached that point where it's not really possible to do it again. I'd say that's pretty clear given the only real suggestion anyone has had for "something different" is essentially ripping off BTAS Joker. Which isn't necessarily a bad idea, I'd be all for it. But it does show that it's becoming much harder to make the character different and that future interpretations are always going to be a little too reminiscent of previous versions. And given Reeves' approach of trying to develop these prototype versions of the character into who they are in the comics, they obviously need to resemble the source material a lot more than previous iterations who could be much more radically different so that evolution feels natural.

Obviously the heart wants what the heart wants, so there's nothing wrong with wanting something radically different. But I am starting to wonder how likely that really is.

 

[C Prometheus]

You make some good points in this post, and you tactically break down every point Filmspeak raises in the video. I appreciate and admire the passion

But I do do disagree with some points, and I think you're hitting the nail on the head with that last point. I think what's happening here, is that some people are getting tired of seeing the Joker presented a certain way; firmly in the Ledger framework-- face paint, scars, slow talking nasally voice, lip smacking etc. I disagree with Filmspeak in that Jerome felt unique (I didn't get any Bowie vibes), because I felt Monaghan was also channeling Ledger's in some parts.

What's rubbing me the wrong way about Keoghan, is that I don't think I've ever seen an actor so blatantly and at the same time, so poorly, imitate Ledger's performance. I'm genuinely confused as to how some people are not seeing the obvious Ledger-isms in Keoghan's acting choices.

On top of being a pirated Heath Ledger in burn victim makeup, everything else about the performance just feels so forced & fake, like stock "crazy person". The more I sit with it, the more I dislike it. It feels like it belongs in a fan film.

I'm just tired of seeing the Joker presented in this mold. At this point, something closer to TAS would've been wholly unique. Or hell, maybe even something like The Dark Knight Returns:
"BATMAN, DARLING". I would've loved to have seen Reeves fully embrace the Bowie influences, as well as the homoerotic undertones to Batman & Joker's relationship.

Or maybe something like Joker: Killer Smile
The Joker is reinvented into this Ted Bundy-like figure; a monster wearing the (metaphorical) mask of a calm, collected, and almost hypnotically charismatic man. It's like a flip of a switch

I feel a take like this would've fit Reeves' universe quite well, and been deeply terrifying--

Instead of teenage Heath Ledger with elephant man syndrome.

I appreciate the feedback! Even if we end up disagreeing on points, I really do want to have a proper discussion on this stuff.

As for your main point, I still find it funny that some people such as yourself and others feel like Keoghan is "ripping off" Ledger's Joker or that he's merely doing a poor imitation of Heath's performance. It really doesn't feel like that to me at all! There's some small details like the lip smack, but overall I don't think it's super prominent. Obviously though, our mileages vary!

Maybe it's because I'm kind of on the opposite side of the spectrum as a fan, where as much as I adore Mark Hamill as Joker and love the version in BTAS, I worry a lot about how unconvincing the character might come across to me and other audiences if it were in a serious live action film. Think of how people still make fun of Bale's BatVoice and how unintentionally silly it got over the course of the trilogy. Heath struck an incredible balance of "animating" his Joker voice, while not allowing it to get distracting.

To me, it just sounds like Barry using a slight variation on his American accented voice in Killing of a Sacred Deer. Hell, his laugh as Joker especially stands out to me as being different from the rest of the actors who've come before him.

That said, as for characterization and the source of inspiration behind each Joker, I don't entirely disagree with you that it's well-tread territory at this point. It really feels like Reeves is going back to the same swimming pool as basically every other director before him has with Joker; The Killing Joke.

Burton took from it, just a year after its publishing. Nolan took from it in TDK. Todd Phillips too for Joker. It's the perennial Batman-Joker story in the mythology at this point, and like Nolan before him, I guess Reeves is likely inspired by the philosophical conflict depicted in the book over the conflict of Nihilism and Joker's staunch beliefs. It makes sense in hindsight, given how much Reeves talked about how he wanted his Batman to be a very humanist take on the character.

After all, if you're going for a humanist Batman, it makes total sense for the ultimate opposition or challenge to Bruce's beliefs to be a nihilistic Joker. And what better book to turn to for inspiration than The Killing Joke in that regard?

And that's really the crux that it comes down to with the comments out there about the similarities between Reeves and Nolan. I really don't think that a lot of that is a deliberate aping on Reeves' part, but rather a consequence of both filmmakers looking to largely the same set of comics and opting to generally adapt core elements from those books faithfully.

Contrast that with Burton and Snyder as filmmakers who were both clearly enamored with a specific comic, but either had a rather different 'reading' of the text than the average fan or just didn't feel obligated to wholly commit to being accurate to the finer nuances of the source material.

 

[Boom]

A Mark Hamill/BTAS-style of Joker would only fit with a very specific vision, and Reeves' vision ain't it. Hamill played a literal cartoon character. You can't simply adapt that into a live-action medium unless the world around it is similarly cartoonish. Nothing about Hamill's Joker fits with what Reeves is going for with his take on the mythos. Call Keoghan's Joker "derivative" if you must, but at least it fits.

 

[C Prometheus]

A Mark Hamill/BTAS-style of Joker would only fit with a very specific vision, and Reeves' vision ain't it. Hamill played a literal cartoon character. You can't simply adapt that into a live-action medium unless the world around it is similarly cartoonish. Nothing about Hamill's Joker fits with what Reeves is going for with his take on the mythos. Call Keoghan's Joker "derivative" if you must, but at least it fits.

Yeah, I agree. Keoghan's Joker absolutely feels like a natural part of the existing world and mythos that Reeves has created for his spin on Batman so far and that matters a lot.

That said, I do wonder if Reeves will look to other comics besides The Killing Joke to inform his way of writing Joker in future appearances? While I do think Dave McKean's artwork was likely a sizable source of inspiration for this Joker design, I don't know if Reeves' interpretation for him in regards to writing is able to embrace say the wackiest parts of Grant Morrison's Joker with the whole "super-sanity" faux-psychology concept.

And granted, if we ever do see a more cartoonish live action adaptation of Batman down the line, I'll be game to see a Hamill-inspired Joker there! But even then, I do think that if we ever saw that sort of Joker, I'd wager he'd still be more in line with the Joker of the Arkham games and the BTAS movies, rather than the more family friendly version from the main show.

 

[Boom]

Morrison should be the blueprint.