Justice League The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 45

[Micromind]

I think too much emphasis is being put on how much damage BvS movie did to JL's box office performance, sure it made a dent but, hypothetically speaking, for arguments sake, had the JL managed to win over Critics and general audiences (which it didn't, due to several reasons, but let's ignore it for a moment ) it would have got a good RT rating and good word of mouth, which could have resulted in a decent Box Office.

So, the damage done by BvS is not the Only factor here, the quality (or lack thereof) of the movie itself is one of the important factors.

This can be seen in the earlier tracking estimates of the JL movie that were predicting an opening of $105 mil. but once the rotten reviews started trickling in (which could be seen on flixster app as the movie site was not showing anything for first day) people started to lose hype.

 

[idiot09]

I think too much emphasis is being put on how much damage BvS movie did to JL's box office performance, sure it made a dent but, hypothetically speaking, for arguments sake, had the JL managed to win over Critics and general audiences (which it didn't, due to several reasons, but let's ignore it for a moment ) it would have got a good RT rating and good word of mouth, which could have resulted in a decent Box Office.

So, the damage done by BvS is not the Only factor here, the quality (or lack thereof) of the movie itself is one of the important factors.

This can be seen in the earlier tracking estimates of the JL movie that were predicting an opening of $105 mil. but once the rotten reviews started trickling in (which could be seen on flixster app as the movie site was not showing anything for first day) people started to lose hype.

The very early estimates were actually saying around 130M. If it was actually embraced by the public and had good RT score, it could have made that much and had great legs. The lackluster marketing and being sandwiched between Thor and Star Wars was also a factor.

 

[Micromind]

The very early estimates were actually saying around 130M. If it was actually embraced by the public and had good RT score, it could have made that much and had great legs. The lackluster marketing and being sandwiched between Thor and Star Wars was also a factor.

Agreed, those who were on the fence and regularly checked RT ratings before deciding to see a movie in theaters, it was easy to skip JL and wait for SW:TLJ, which had strong marketing push and hype going for it.

Others, who were not SW fans, just decided to see Thor 3 for n th number of time instead of going to JL.

Kevin Tsujihara's 'business decision' to get run-time of JL at 2 hours must have got more screenings per day but with little audience attendance.

Edit: Whoever decided on JL's release date got the movie sandwiched between Thor 3 and SW, it was bad move.

 

[Micromind]

Lackluster marketing also played a part, their decision to hide Superman from general audience didn't help either.. it seems as if Murphy's law was applied to JL movie.

 

[GreenKToo]

WB was the slimy used car salesman that sells you a lemon. WE got taken.

 

[MbJ]

The very early estimates were actually saying around 130M.

And those proved to be painfully optimistic. The fact that the movie didn't have legs is an indication of its lack of quality. But the fact that a huge chunk of the people who went to see BVS decided not to bother with the sequel is on that movie.

It's not the sole reason, but it certainly accounts for the horrendous opening weekend.

 

[idiot09]

It's not the sole reason

Exactly my point. There were a tons of factors why it had a low OW, but a singular factor why it had bad legs, and that's because of its quality or lack thereof. BvS was not received very enthusiastically, and that damage was done. But WB could have easily turned it around, it was not a lost cause. With better and more grandiose marketing and novelty factor(rather than selling a derivative of something we already got a few years back), with less negative coverage because of BTS troubles(actually dont cause BTS troubles), and by actually not ****ing up the movie during post(probably resulting in better reviews)...things could have easily be prevented. Sure it was never going to reach BvS numbers OW, but it didnt need to be this sub 100M embarassment.

Anyway its all could have would have, none of us know. But I think we can both agree that WB deserved that JL faltered at the BO.

 

[Faora]

WB humiliation.

[YT]2PZ3W1W20bk[/YT]

 

[TheGDBatman]

I really wish more people would realize that the alternate does *not* start there. It starts with "In a parallel universe, BvS is actually a good movie. . ." and the rest follows.

But that requires admitting that, one, quality actually exists, and two, BvS wasn't the victim of an evil conspiracy.

Plenty of people loved the movie, plenty didn't. I don't see any issues with the original statement. But hey, lets hear for the 100000000th time about how bad the movie was, like we haven't heard that story before .

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

The SW chase on Paradise Island looked fantastic IMO. So did the action sequences in the tunnel and at Heroes Park. It's the final battle that looked atrocious to me. The stupid purple tentacles and obnoxious red filter. It looked so cheap and ugly to look at. The original shots of the final battle from Trailer 1 looked so much better and pleasing to the eye. But heck, there were already people complaining that those shots looked too videogamey. The end result was way worse though.

Those freakin tentacles made absolutely no sense! That is in addition to them being ugly as he--.

 

[_Superman_]

Those freakin tentacles made absolutely no sense! That is in addition to them being ugly as he--.

Yes it did. It was the added danger to let the heroes know they have to hurry.

 

[Zero_Effect]

...

 

[misslane38]

And those proved to be painfully optimistic. The fact that the movie didn't have legs is an indication of its lack of quality. But the fact that a huge chunk of the people who went to see BVS decided not to bother with the sequel is on that movie.

It's not the sole reason, but it certainly accounts for the horrendous opening weekend.

Tracking data isn't formulated based on feelings, so those tracking numbers weren't affected by optimism. At one point, before the reviews and social media snippets, the movie was doing notably better than it performed once it was actually released. I do believe that BvS had some effect, which is why the tracking wasn't as high as $150m as one might expect for a movie of this nature, but the fact that it only made $94m when tracking had it higher than that weeks prior, speaks to how significant the effect of JL's bad reviews were on its opening weekend and ultimate success.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

Richard has an inkling the moment Superman arrives since Lois starts acting aloof and flustered, which is why he brought up the conversation in the kitchen and asked her intimate details of her article "I Spent The Night With Superman." When Lois says "Richard, that was a long time ago.." indicates that Lois has had convos or at least subtly hinted of her feelings for Superman and the time they spent together.

And Lois tells him that was just a title and meant nothing and Perry came up with it. We don't know the timeline between Lois getting pregnant and the article, we don't know the timeline regarding when Lois met Richard or when they became a romantic item. It is just as easy to assume they met after Jason was born as to think they met 5 mins after Lois got pregnant.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

Plenty of people loved the movie, plenty didn't. I don't see any issues with the original statement. But hey, lets hear for the 100000000th time about how bad the movie was, like we haven't heard that story before .

And by the same group of people.

 

[The Guard]

One thing that I'm curious about is whether Snyder's version of "Justice League" actually presented an impending danger element that actually made it feel like the whole world was at risk during the course of the final battle (where we got to see shots of people across the globe reacting to the stuff going on in Russia with the League against S.W.). I mean was it a better looking final battle involving the League against S.W. in a isolated area of the world or was there more to it?

I doubt it.

I don't think Joss Whedon or WB would just decide to eliminate incredible visuals or major plot points like that just...because. That's the kind of thing that could be reshot around if they wanted to.

I think what's far more likely is that, because BVS received a similar kind of kind of "too much CGI destruction" outcry that MAN OF STEEL did that they just toned it way, way down, and changed the tone of the film in general. There's a noteable "adventure" feel to the danger VS the more tangible threats presented in MOS and BVS.

Aside from that, the threat posed by Steppenwolf is pretty clearly designed to be a relatively secret operation/sneak attack, compared to the up front invasion seen by Zod and the others in MOS. There's a clear effort to describe the final setpiece as happening in an isolated area.

 

[The Joker]

WB was the slimy used car salesman that sells you a lemon. WE got taken.

After the awfulness of BvS and SS, people should not have been surprised we got another stinker.

 

[misslane38]

I doubt it.

I don't think Joss Whedon or WB would just decide to eliminate incredible visuals just...because. That's the kind of thing that could be reshot around if they wanted to.

Whedon and WB made a lot of editorial and story decisions that cut out innocuous, even good material from Snyder's cut. It seems like exactly the sort of boneheaded move they would make.

 

[The Guard]

It's been a while since I perused the edit lists, but aside from the Atlantis sequence and some of Cyborg's backstory/power exploration, I have yet to see any real concrete evidence of any truly quality story and character material that they cut out and didn't adequately replace in some fashion. There were certainly some nice shots and tonal things and connective tissue type stuff that didn't make it into the film, but overarching story points, major character development, conceptual development, thematic approach, etc...a lot of the deleted scenes we've seen or know about seem to be pretty minimally important (not speculated scenes or rumor, but actual sequences we know were in the film). I see people compiling lists of things that were "cut", and it's like "This line was cooler than what was in the film", or "That's a cool action shot" or "Nooo, the black suit!", but there seems to be more a perception about what they wish the film was based on what they liked about MOS and BVS than any concrete evidence that this long and thematically rich film ever existed. I don't think it's existence was very likely after the rather hyperbolic and in some cases vitriolic response to BVS.

 

[misslane38]

It's been a while since I perused the edit lists, but aside from the rumored Atlantis sequence and some of Cyborg's backstory/power exploration, I have yet to see any real concrete evidence of any truly quality story and character material that they cut out and didn't adequately replace in some fashion. There were certainly some nice shots and tonal things that didn't make it into the film, but overarching story points, major character development, conceptual development, etc...a lot of the deleted scenes we've seen or know about seem to be pretty minimally important. I see people compiling lists of things that were "cut", and it's like "This line was cooler than what was in the film", or "That's a cool action shot", but I don't see any major story potential that was lost.

Lois and Clark getting engaged, Lois getting involved in the STAR Labs story, Bruce and Diana talking about the Knightmare, the Arthur/Vulko conversation, and the Cyborg material come to mind. Basically, there were cuts to the film that wrapped up dangling plot threads or developed the characters and antagonist.

 

[The Guard]

Lois and Clark getting engaged, Lois getting involved in the STAR Labs story, Bruce and Diana talking about the Knightmare, the Arthur/Vulko conversation, and the Cyborg material come to mind. Basically, there were cuts to the film that wrapped up dangling plot threads or developed the characters and antagonist.

Fair enough, but there's a difference between wrapping up dangling plot threads from a previous film and overarching concepts specific to this one. I would say that the world's reaction to Steppenwolf's invasion, which the world outside "our heroes" pretty much had no hints of in BVS is pretty specific to JUSTICE LEAGUE. I'm speaking to the "overarching danger element" from a few posts back.

 

[misslane38]

Fair enough, but there's a difference between wrapping up dangling plot threads from a previous film and overarching concepts specific to this one. I would say that the world's reaction to Steppenwolf's invasion, which the world outside "our heroes" pretty much had no hints of in BVS is pretty specific to JUSTICE LEAGUE. I'm speaking to the "overarching danger element" from a few posts back.

And I'm speaking to the filmmaker's overarching approach to these films, including the boneheaded cuts made to Snyder's cut of BvS, that demonstrate a consistent habit of cutting material with apparently no logical justification. You asked why would Whedon and WB cut good visuals. My answer is: that's how these people operate. There is no logic or reason to the cuts made to these films.

 

[Tra-El]

And Lois tells him that was just a title and meant nothing and Perry came up with it. We don't know the timeline between Lois getting pregnant and the article, we don't know the timeline regarding when Lois met Richard or when they became a romantic item. It is just as easy to assume they met after Jason was born as to think they met 5 mins after Lois got pregnant.

Lois also told Richard that she wasn't in love with Superman after a brief pause. She clearly was so she was lieing to Richard and to herself at that moment because she was hurt. When somebody gets hurt, especially in a relationship, they either ignore their feelings, come up with excuses or lie to themselves. Lois was doing all the above.

 

[GothamBat]

Remember when that first trailer dropped? What would you have thought if someone told you that literally 90% of it wouldn't end up in the actual movie?

 

[matt47]

Yeah that's rough...