The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part 2

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]464807[/split]

 

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]451501[/split]

 

[Dark Raven]

Based on the casting call and Feb. 10th start date, I think we're getting down to it.

By the middle of February, I think Fox will either be starting production or it won't be happening.

So the good news is I think we'll have clarity soon. The bad news is I think Fox may very well intend to do a "Fantastic Four" in which the FF are just 4 more mutants to add to their X-Men franchise.

And kids of today seeing this movie will just grow up thinking the FF are part of the X-Men.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Distrust? If anything the last few films released by Fox should be making people trust them more.

based on what? the 40 good minutes of FC or the 15-20 good minutes of TW? and since both films had abyssmal 3rd acts I'm getting worried even more.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

And kids of today seeing this movie will just grow up thinking the FF are part of the X-Men.

And their kids may not know who the FF are at all. Unless we get a film soon that captures the elements that made the Fantastic Four so unique and interesting, they're likely to fade away.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

And kids of today seeing this movie will just grow up thinking the FF are part of the X-Men.

A whole batch of them already think the FF are Incredibles ripoffs.

 

[Dark Raven]

A whole batch of them already think the FF are Incredibles ripoffs.

If anyone can do the FF justice, it's Disney and Marvel. I know Brad Bird probably wouldn't want to retread the Incredibles, but if he were brought in (if the FF went back to Marvel), he could make them as cool as the Incredibles seem. The tone of the Incredibles is how the FF should be thought of - not as part of the X-Men. The current summary is so out of character with the FF.

 

[Dr. Evil]

If anyone can do the FF justice, it's Disney and Marvel. I know Brad Bird probably wouldn't want to retread the Incredibles, but if he were brought in (if the FF went back to Marvel), he could make them as cool as the Incredibles seem. The tone of the Incredibles is how the FF should be thought of - not as part of the X-Men. The current summary is so out of character with the FF.

Brad Bird had an update on the Incredibles 2 earlier this year saying that he has a bunch of ideas for a sequel, but that he needs to see if any of them fit for a sequel.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

If anyone can do the FF justice, it's Disney and Marvel. I know Brad Bird probably wouldn't want to retread the Incredibles, but if he were brought in (if the FF went back to Marvel), he could make them as cool as the Incredibles seem. The tone of the Incredibles is how the FF should be thought of - not as part of the X-Men. The current summary is so out of character with the FF.

That last bit is what makes me grind my teeth so much over this. Fox fans keep throwing out that line of **** about the only reason MCU fans want the FF back at MS is so they can cross over with Avengers (which is bull) while at the same time pushing for this FF/X-Men crossover that doesn't make one lick of sense in the context of the already established X-universe AND completely undermines everything that makes the FF what they are.

This insistence on keeping the FF at all costs, even if squirting out yet another bad film buries them for good is completely illogical. I don't know if they just outright hate the FF or what. I had thought we'd put the days of studios spindling and mutilating these properties until they're almost unrecognizable behind us but now I'm not so sure.

 

[Mr. Dent]

If we don't get any news in January I will be (pleasantly) surprised.

 

[metaphysician]

That last bit is what makes me grind my teeth so much over this. Fox fans keep throwing out that line of **** about the only reason MCU fans want the FF back at MS is so they can cross over with Avengers (which is bull) while at the same time pushing for this FF/X-Men crossover that doesn't make one lick of sense in the context of the already established X-universe AND completely undermines everything that makes the FF what they are.

This insistence on keeping the FF at all costs, even if squirting out yet another bad film buries them for good is completely illogical. I don't know if they just outright hate the FF or what. I had thought we'd put the days of studios spindling and mutilating these properties until they're almost unrecognizable behind us but now I'm not so sure.

Sadly, its not illogical at all. Its completely rational: Fox wants money, and thinks the best way to turn the FF license into cash is to "force" Marvel to give them a big check for it. Making a likely-crap movie is just a means to continue to game of chicken, as they figure they can make it cheaply enough that it will not lose them money.

Granted, I think its a fool's game, because I don't think Marvel will ever simply write them a check for it. They don't *need* the Fantastic Four, as much as they would like to have them back, and probably dislike Fox on top of that. Sadly, this leaves the FF as collateral damage.

 

[GoblinScrier]

I guess I want to try to be in Kevin Feige's shoes for a day or two and figure out why I wouldn't want to bring the F4 home as soon as possible. Do they really have to have it right now? No...but even if the F4 themselves weren't a necessity, how could Marvel/Disney NOT want to bring Doom home...the amount of stuff they could do with him alone begs for multiple films...heck he could challenge Thanos for right of supremacy in Avengers 3 if they had him back...I just want to cry when I think of Doom and the F4 etc as "homeless" (i.e. they don't have a REAL home to call their own and Fox isn't a home...more of an insane asylum)

 

[metaphysician]

Its simple. The amount they would have to pay to bribe Fox into giving the rights back? Would probably be comparable to the amount it would cost to make an entire movie. Marvel isn't willing, rightly so, to spend 300M making a Fantastic Four movie, and it'd be even more foolish to spend 150M ( enough to make an entire movie ) just so you can throw in cameos and supporting cast into other movies ( that also need to be fully funded ).

 

[kaijunexus]

Sadly, its not illogical at all. Its completely rational: Fox wants money, and thinks the best way to turn the FF license into cash is to "force" Marvel to give them a big check for it. Making a likely-crap movie is just a means to continue to game of chicken, as they figure they can make it cheaply enough that it will not lose them money.

Granted, I think its a fool's game, because I don't think Marvel will ever simply write them a check for it. They don't *need* the Fantastic Four, as much as they would like to have them back, and probably dislike Fox on top of that. Sadly, this leaves the FF as collateral damage.

But how much is Fox willing to spend to keep playing that game? All this gesturing it's free (or cheap).

They're undoubtedly having to pay Trank for his time and his work that he's putting into this (he's been on the project for years...he has to be making money to be willing to stay on). All the script writers had to be paid. Scouting locations isn't entirely free. And who knows what other kind of pre-production work has been done on this that's cost Fox money. Despite what little they've announced...a lot of work and money may have been put into this behind the scenes.

It's getting close to the wire here, and Fox is going to have to make a decision to go all-in or fold very soon. They'll have to look at the money already spent and ask themselves "Have we spent too much to turn back now?" And if the answer is "no", then they'll have to decide if it's worth taking a financial gamble on this movie.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

IF Fox intends to make FF films, the rights are probably worth more to them than Marvel would ever pay.

Fox only has two Marvel properties, but Marvel as thousands of characters to choose from (though nothing as high profile as FF that they haven't already exploited).

If that premise is true, then there are one of two options:

1. Fox intends to make a go of it.
2. Fox doesn't intend to do anything and all their talk has been posturing.

If I were Marvel, I think I would have no choice (at this point, they may have been able to do more two years ago) but to sit back and see what happens.

If #1 is the reality Marvel doesn't have the cash to change their mind. If #2 is the reality, we'll all know it soon enough and Marvel will get the rights for nothing.

I wish Marvel had been more aggressive a few years ago, but I think we're beyond the point of negotiation. At this point, it's just a matter of waiting to see who won.

 

[Zarex]

My New Year's wish (in addition to peace on earth, health for my family, yadda, yadda, yadda) is that we'll all be reading the following press release in the next month or so:

20th Century Fox and Marvel Studios have reached an expansion to our existing partnership that we believe greatly strengthens our multi-billion dollar X-Men franchise now and for the foreseeable future. Marvel has given up its profit participation in Marvel films produced by 20th Century Fox and agreed to expanded merchandising, promotion, and cross-studio cooperation. In return, 20th Century Fox has agreed to relinquish the rights to the Fantastic Four family of characters, though the studio will retain a profit participation share in the series. We are excited about this agreement and how it will positively impact studio returns. We will have more information about this enhanced partnership over the next few months.

 

[metaphysician]

My New Year's wish (in addition to peace on earth, health for my family, yadda, yadda, yadda) is that we'll all be reading the following press release in the next month or so:

20th Century Fox and Marvel Studios have reached an expansion to our existing partnership that we believe greatly strengthens our multi-billion dollar X-Men franchise now and for the foreseeable future. Marvel has given up its profit participation in Marvel films produced by 20th Century Fox and agreed to expanded merchandising, promotion, and cross-studio cooperation. In return, 20th Century Fox has agreed to relinquish the rights to the Fantastic Four family of characters, though the studio will retain a profit participation share in the series. We are excited about this agreement and how it will positively impact studio returns. We will have more information about this enhanced partnership over the next few months.

Won't ever happen. That's basically a huge win for Fox, and relatively little for Marvel. Especially since I doubt they'd give much credence to stuff like "no more profit sharing", or even "longer term of license", since Marvel already gets barely anything from the movies, and the license term already gives Fox the X-Men basically forever ( they've never run even close to the time limit between releases ).

Anyway, while its true that Fox will have to decide if they are going all in or not. . . both prior Fantastic Four movies turned a profit. Not a huge one, but a profit. From their perspective, its reasonable to figure that if they actually do make the movie, it won't be an actual loss. It won't be a particularly good chance at huge profit, but it will net them some revenue and keep the rights too. The only actual loss would be in opportunity cost ( the movie they could have made with that time and effort and release slot ), and I doubt they are sacrificing anything particularly valuable in that sense.

This doesn't mean Fox isn't completely bluffing, mind. They could well be. It just means that there is nothing impossible about their plan including "Branch B: make cheap Fantastic Four movie, hold rights another 7 years."

 

[kaijunexus]

My New Year's wish (in addition to peace on earth, health for my family, yadda, yadda, yadda) is that we'll all be reading the following press release in the next month or so:

20th Century Fox and Marvel Studios have reached an expansion to our existing partnership that we believe greatly strengthens our multi-billion dollar X-Men franchise now and for the foreseeable future. Marvel has given up its profit participation in Marvel films produced by 20th Century Fox and agreed to expanded merchandising, promotion, and cross-studio cooperation. In return, 20th Century Fox has agreed to relinquish the rights to the Fantastic Four family of characters, though the studio will retain a profit participation share in the series. We are excited about this agreement and how it will positively impact studio returns. We will have more information about this enhanced partnership over the next few months. has abandoned their plans for a Fantastic Four reboot and will allow the live-action rights for the property to lapse back to Marvel Studios in the beginning of 2015.

ftfy

 

[Zarex]

Another DD type of scenario would be wonderful, but I can't see a scenario in which FOX relinquishes the rights without compensation. An enhanced tie-in with the mighty MCU, even on the most minor of levels, is something senior execs can sell to stockholders as a "win". And given Marvel's success with its existing roster of characters, I think that Feige and company would be licking their chops at the opportunity to monetize Ben Grimm (big screen Thing vs Hulk!), Galactus, the Invisible Woman and Doom.

 

[metaphysician]

The thing is, Fox might *want* an MCU tie-in ( though I am not so sure ), but it doesn't mean they have any way to force it. Not like the X-Men movies are even slightly compatible with the MCU anyway.

If its a matter of negotiated turnover, it won't happen because Marvel won't give them anything meaningful. If its a reversion due to the timer running out, than it doesn't matter if Fox wants compensation.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

It would certainly seem that if Fox wants to build FF into a franchise, a joining with the Marvel Universe, sharing of characters and long-term story planning with Marvel would be a win/win for both sides.

The only two reasons I can see that it wouldn't go that way would be if Fox doesn't really want to make FF films or those involved are too petty , short-sighted and pig-headed to cooperate.

The former would end up as good news for us, but, unfortunately, the latter is the more likely scenario.

 

[metaphysician]

A shared universe means shared creative control. And bluntly, I don't think Marvel would want Fox production teams writing stuff into their MCU, ever.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

A shared universe means shared creative control. And bluntly, I don't think Marvel would want Fox production teams writing stuff into their MCU, ever.

I don't think Marvel needs to give up any control.

Here's the way I would play it if I were Marvel: "Hey Fox, do you want to hitch your franchise to the train that has put two films in the top five all time grossing films in each of the last two years? Interested? Here's how it will work:

We will give you, free of charge, access to the consulting and planning we've used to create a new paradigm in film production.

We will help you plan out a rolling ten-year long-range plan for your FF franchise. We'll give you a few key elements that need to be included in the films you'll be making and we'll give you access to our characters to be used in your films according to the plan. And you'll allow us to use your characters in our films according to the plan.

We will create the plan, but you will have sign-off, so if we say 'You'll produce a film in 2017 that will include character A and broad story element B. We'll produce a film in 2018 that will include character C and broad story element D. You'll produce a film in 2019 that will include character E and broad story element F etc. etc. through 10 years of planned production...'

And you don't like certain proposed characters or elements, we'll rework it until we can come up with a plan you are willing to sign-off on."

Fox wouldn't be writing the plan, but they would have the option to veto elements. They would also have freedom to create their own stories as long as they include the key elements (think about how independent a film like Iron Man 3 is I terms of the broad plan - we're talking about very minor details that tie all the films together).

If both parties can be mature, rational adults, I think the details would be very easy to work out.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

I don't think Fox and Marvel are on as good terms as say, Sony and Marvel. Both studios using Quicksilver indicates some possible tension.

 

[KnightGambit]

I don't think Fox and Marvel are on as good terms as say, Sony and Marvel. Both studios using Quicksilver indicates some possible tension.

And using Apocalypse before Thanos was in spite against Marvel