The Kick-Ass Thread

[Ipodman]

They got hyped because it's Batman. If audiences didn't care about Batman they wouldn't have gotten hyped...which goes back to my original point. TDK was a mega-success because it's Batman.

I think the Joker in TDK also contributed a lot... if not why did Batman Begins perform much lower than TDK?

 

[Donut]

I think the Joker in TDK also contributed a lot... if not why did Batman Begins perform much lower than TDK?

Batman & Robin being the last Batman movie before Batman Begins might have something to do with it

 

[david icke]

They got hyped because it's Batman. If audiences didn't care about Batman they wouldn't have gotten hyped...which goes back to my original point. TDK was a mega-success because it's Batman.

Of course it being Batman played a large part in it, that is obvious, but what also played a part was that poeple knew it was a superior version of Batman, as evidenced by Batman Begins, which more and more people saw on dvd and tv in the intervening years.

Batman Returns was affected by soccer moms who complained about the violence. And, yet, it still managed to be the most successful movie of the summer and the third highest grossing film of the year. Not bad for a flick that upset watch-dog groups. And, by the way, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, the sequel to the mega-hit Raiders of the Lost Ark, went through the exact same situation. It was cinema deja vu.



To begin with, B:TAS didn't last three years on primetime. It lasted like a few months in 1992. It spent most of its run in FOX's afternoon line-up. Secondly, Batman Forever is like the polar opposite of that show which you can tell by just watching the trailer. Fans of the show weren't excited for this movie. The movie was a success (#1 for summer, #2 for the year) because kids loved it and their parents (who grew up on Adam West) loved it as well.



Audiences have always enjoyed Batman more than Superman. You can tell based on hype. The first Superman, as successful as it was, got beaten at the box office by Grease. Grease! The sequel was released a week after Raiders of the Lost Ark and suffered a lot because of it. In other words, people were more excited for the latest Steven Spielberg/George Lucas creation than Superman. Then, there's Superman III, IV, and Returns which had little to no hype. Batman, on the other hand, has always been a hype machine. 4 out of the 6 installments broke the opening weekend box office record. 4 out of the 6 dominated their summer. 2 out of the 6 dominated in their year. And, Batman & Robin, believe it or not, had a very impressive opening weekend of $42 million. Adjusted for inflation, that's even better than Batman Begins. And, yet, the movie managed to flop which is a reminder of the impact that word-of-mouth has. Hulk in 2003 also suffered from poor word-of-mouth. Cinema deja vu strikes again.



Really?



Batman Returns was very controversial because of its violence. Burton and Keaton being replaced made sense and people expected it. That's why there wasn't a big fuss.

The points you have raised are kind of besides the point and skirting around the facts, who cares if BTAS was not on prime time for it's complete run, the fact is that it created stacks of Batman fans, and that played into the large BO of Forever.
If you are disputing that, I say you are deluded. You just have to look at sites like this and see how many people got into bm and comics in general because of that show.

and of course Batman and Robin had a decent opening, no-one had seen the movie yet! lol, they thought it would be a decent romp like the last 3, esp Forever. and it's overall bo was the lowest of the 4.
It is the same as the largest BO coming from Batman89 because no-one had seen a serious live action Batman yet, everyone wanted to go see it to see if it lived up to the hype.

Of course it being Batman played a part in all of their successes, but the *quality* of that creative team's version of Batman plays a part in how that movie does in comparsion to the other BM movies.
edit|: the exceptions being the first in each of the series, Batman89 did very well because a live action serious BM movie was a brand new thing, and Batman Begin's relatively low BO was not so great becuase , inversely , people thought they had alreqady seen everything a Batman movie had to offer.

edit: and the 'soccer moms' effect on Batman Returns would not have had as dramatic an impact on a movie coming off of the success of that first one to that extent. C'mon, get real man.

and as for the Superman films, the first two anyway, being more loved than the Batman films, I *heavily* dispute that.
again, no-one cared when Keaton was re-cast, the point you raised to explain that is irrelevant.

 

[DACrowe]

^^ What're you actually trying to argue exactly? Are you trying to argue Burton's films were bad or that TDK did great because it's Batman? I don't understand where you're going.

For the record I recall Batman Returns having a very strong visceral reaction that was quite negative. Kids (I was pretty young, myself) generally hated it because of how gross Penguin was and how bleak it was. To date it is the only mainstream superhero movie where the hero loses at the end (Catwoman rejects him, kills Christopher Walken, and Batman is left alone and brooding on Christmas Eve. Very noirish).

Burton was fired from the series because of how dark and artistic, i.e. not-kid friendly, BR was. And it was clear people still at the time liked campy Batman given the success of BF (the Marvel film resolution was still nearly a decade off).

Oh, and Batman is pretty clearly preferred by modern audiences to Superman. Only the first Superman was a big hit (1 out of 5). While 5 out of 6 Batman films were hits (and the one that flopped was also one of the worst films ever made). Look at the hype for TDK vs. Superman Returns. Bats and Spidey have much more appeal to modern audiences. Look at what this thread is about: Kick-Ass. The movie is a parody of primarily Spider-Man and Batman. There is a nudge to John Williams in the film, but it is mainly based on Spidey films and Batman iconography, because they are the definitive superheroes to modern audiences.

 

[david icke]

Go back to my first point, we have veered off course from that somewhat...what i am saying is that TDK was anticipated by people because of BB, and more people encoutered that because of dvd and tv showings, much like could happen with a KA sequel.

and I don't know why you are comparing the hype for TDK to Superman Returns, surely the hype for Batman Begins should be compared to Superman Returns, and the hype *was* bigger for SR, because Reeve's Superman is more beloved than any of the cinematic Batmans of the 89-97 series.

The rest of the points about why certain movies failed to what extent is conjecture on our parts. We all have our opinions.

 

[Spider-Man '92]

I heard that issue one has been delayed again. I hope this isn't the case. Has anyone heard likely?

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

I'm going to pick it up on Wednesday. It better not be Millar

 

[DACrowe]

As BB made more money I dunno about that. Superman '78 is beloved by fans and fanboys more. Most audiences are ambivalent about both older franchises. I personally think B'89 is a better movie myself.

 

[jmc]

Anyone know where I can purchase the score for this film? For some inexplicable reason it's only available in the UK.

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

Anyone know where I can purchase the score for this film? For some inexplicable reason it's only available in the UK.

Yeah, still a tad Po'd about that, but I'll PM it to you.

 

[Christopher_M]

 

[Catman]

the fact is that it created stacks of Batman fans, and that played into the large BO of Forever.

That depends on the age group. Anyone who was old enough to see Batman and/or Batman Returns in theaters (or TV) was already a fan when B:TAS came around.

For the record I recall Batman Returns having a very strong visceral reaction that was quite negative. Kids (I was pretty young, myself) generally hated it because of how gross Penguin was and how bleak it was.

I guess it varies from person to person, but my group of friends and I enjoyed it at the time. We thought it was cool.

Go back to my first point, we have veered off course from that somewhat...what i am saying is that TDK was anticipated by people because of BB, and more people encoutered that because of dvd and tv showings, much like could happen with a KA sequel.

Since we're going back to the original discussion, I have to once again say that TDK is not the best example. Kick-Ass will never be a billion dollar franchise. Blade is a better example because, like Kick-Ass, it's a smaller franchise with a cult following.

Now, of course, you may be thinking: "Hey, Catman, I'm just using an example of a sequel that did WAY better than the original." Well, keep in mind that TDK is not unique in that area. Terminator 2 was 100x more successful than the original.

 

[david icke]

Catman, sorry if I was a bit prissy back there, but I had a bit of a sore noggin when I typed up that particular post, sorry about that.
and just one last point, I wasn't really talking in relation to the scale of BO increase for both franchises, more along the lines of both BB and KA creating certain preconceptions(one being like the old BM movies, the other, from the trailers and ads, looking like a spoof like Mystery Men), so folk who would have enjoyed both movies did not go see them, but enjoyed them when it came round on tv or dvd. so would then go to see the sequel at the pics.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/06/business/media/06kick.html?_r=2&ref=media

2 Million copies sold.

Awesome. This movie has grown on me fast. Both me and my brother put off seeing it til about a month ago and we both keep finding excuses to sit down and watch it again. ("It's raining..let's watch Kick Ass!") It's great every time. I've now got it tied with Watchmen for #1 on my all time comic book movies list.

They better make the sequel fast. Chloe outgrew her Hit-Girl pants 5 inches.

Dunno if this will help, but:

A new interview with Chloë Moretz finds her discussing what toys and gadgets she wants Hit-Girl to have in the sequel. She also puts to rest any worries she might grow out of the role:

My proposition for Kick-Ass 2, which I told to Jane Goldman and Mark Millar is that Hit-Girl, has to have a purple Ducatti with massive guns! I watched Salt, and Angelina Jolie has a scene on a motorbike, and I was like - "Man, she stole it from me! That was my idea!" But mine will be purple, with machine guns, and a gadget board that pops out... I'd always like to portray Hit-Girl, we're the same age, so Matthew said, whenever we get round to doing it, I can have it whatever age I am.​

​

http://io9.com/5634500/hit+girl-exp...pbell-wants-to-make-the-expendables-of-horror

At this point Kick-Ass 2 is a pipe dream.

A lot of people seem to be dreaming about it though. And it's the right people. Millar, Moretz, Vaughn.
Matt Vaughn:
"If we can get number one off the ground when no-one wanted to make it, making number two is going to be very easy. What I won’t do is that if I don’t think the film can be as good, I won’t make it."

As in no shot of ever happening? I mean there is the difficulty set up with Moretz is aging fast and they cannot begin production until at least early 2012 as Vaughn is making a (pointless) X-Men movie and that will have to be released before a script can even be written.

So, the timetable is what could kill the potential sequel. But why should that make it a pipe dream? Lionsgate is relatively happy with KA which was profittable in the BO by trippling its production budget (which they only recouped Vaughn's investors half of, anyway) at the global box office.

That isn't enough to secure a sequel, but it keeps it from bombing like the (great, but devastated) Scott Pilgrim.

Now, it is a huge hit on DVD. It was the biggest new release of August and in one month has sold 2 million copies. It is very lucrative. If they can make another one for $30 million, I imagine it will be quite doable. Hardly a pipe dream.

But if Chloe Moretz is 16 when they're ready (she'll be at least 14 at the earliest now), then yeah their window will have been missed.

I read an interview with Vaughn in which he was talking about Hit Girl's arc in the sequel and it fell right in with her being older. He wants an Unforgiven vibe.

TDK's success was because it's Batman.

I would say it's because of the Joker. Batman films fall into two distinct categories, box office-wise....those with the Joker and those without the Joker. Don't expect the next Batman movie to get near to TDK at the box office.

For the record I recall Batman Returns having a very strong visceral reaction that was quite negative. Kids (I was pretty young, myself) generally hated it because of how gross Penguin was and how bleak it was. To date it is the only mainstream superhero movie where the hero loses at the end (Catwoman rejects him, kills Christopher Walken, and Batman is left alone and brooding on Christmas Eve. Very noirish).

My favorite Batman movie. Love Returns! But I'm not in love with the Joker like most are. Di Vito's Penguin was genius in my book.

Oh, and Batman is pretty clearly preferred by modern audiences to Superman. Only the first Superman was a big hit (1 out of 5). While 5 out of 6 Batman films were hits (and the one that flopped was also one of the worst films ever made). Look at the hype for TDK vs. Superman Returns. Bats and Spidey have much more appeal to modern audiences. Look at what this thread is about: Kick-Ass. The movie is a parody of primarily Spider-Man and Batman. There is a nudge to John Williams in the film, but it is mainly based on Spidey films and Batman iconography, because they are the definitive superheroes to modern audiences.

Supes is able to sustain a TV show though...that counts for something. Not sure any other super hero could do it.

 

[DACrowe]

I love Batman Returns now. I was a bit creeped out as a youngin'. But I do think it is wonderfully tragic, gothic, campy, and entertaining. But the Joker is Batman's best villain. Yin and yang. Order and chaos. They are just so much fun to watch together. Two-Face because of his tragedy would be his second in my book. And TDK had both stories so, I think it is pretty impossible to top personally.

 

[DACrowe]

Hey is issue #1 of Kick-Ass 2 coming out today? I called my local store and they say they don't have it. Is it just going to be for Brits in that "Clint" magazine?

If so that is disappointing.

 

[Spider-Man '92]

My store doesn't have it either. I believe it's coming out on October 6th now.

 

[Aesop Rocks]

I just checked on Marvel.com, no mentions of Kick-Ass coming out today.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

I'm afraid to read it unless I know for certain the sequel isn't coming. I rarely enjoy a movie after I've read the source material. (the other way 'round isn't a problem for me)

I just don't want to become one of those guys that complains about how the movie changed something I really liked about the book. (Like the poor Watchmen fans who wanted the giant squid)

 

[Spider-Man '92]

It's up in the air for me, I enjoyed Kick-Ass because I saw the movie, then read the comic. That order was nice, and the movie-going experience was exciting. Seeing the differences didn't make me dislike anything, as I was established with the movie in the first place, making me enjoy both versions. For me, going into Kick-Ass 2 is trying the other way, reading it first, then seeing the film (assuming it gets made).

On that note, I was not upset with Watchmen losing the squid, and I had read the comics first.

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

I don't have it either. :

screw you mark millar, now I have to wait yet another month for kick-ass 2.

 

[Leenie]

I don't even know if I'll pick up the comics of Kick-Ass 2. I thought the Kick-Ass movie was just that much better than the comics. I'm definitely more excited about the movie.

But hey, if people really dig the Balls to the Wall comics, then I might check them out at some point.

 

[Spider-Man '92]

I don't have it either. :

screw you mark millar, now I have to wait yet another month for kick-ass 2.

I'm pretty sure the new estimate is October 6th, so it's not too long.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I don't even know if I'll pick up the comics of Kick-Ass 2. I thought the Kick-Ass movie was just that much better than the comics. I'm definitely more excited about the movie.

But hey, if people really dig the Balls to the Wall comics, then I might check them out at some point.

Yeah this is my stance on the matter, I thought movie was much better than the comic so not too bothered about the sequel to the comic.

 

[Ipodman]

BTTW really have some major bar to reach in terms of expectations...