The Last Defenders

[PhotoJones]

He's got no business being a mod, anyway.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

I didn't know for sure, but I remember hearing people complaining about how he'd ban over practically little reasoning.

 

[PhotoJones]

Pretty much. Then if you started a thread in Tech Support about mod abusal of power, and what to do about it, he'd close that thread, too.

 

[Dread]

I don't know, Colossus' 'classic' costume just never really worked well for me. He could stand to go the way of Beast or the Thing or the Hulk, in fact--just scale his costume down to almost nothing and let his body be its normal, visually interesting self. Like with this costume:

As I stated in a prior post, the only logical reason I fathom for why Colossus hasn't had pants most often is because artists like drawing his metal skin, and no pants allows him to show more of it.

I remember that costume, if you call "bikinni underwear, wristbands and boots" a costume (if so, then Witchblade has a costume). I think he started wearing it during the days when the X-Men were based in the Outback. I reasoned that it was very hot there and attributed it to functionality when he wasn't in metal form.

Beast had an excuse for that look; being furry, clothes tend to be uncomfortable. That hasn't stopped him from wearing suits during the Morrison days, but just saying. Hulk's pants usually rip a bit so it often was accidental. Thing has also had periods where he wore pants. He also doesn't have the benefit of changing back like Colossus does.

I wasn't a fan of that look, honestly.

I actually like his Ultimate costume, but that wouldn't work for 616 and I wouldn't want it to.

I pointed out that Eliyja was a bandwith thief once, and he started trolling me and deleting all of my posts.

Who told you to provoke someone in power?

Bah, they're fixed for everyone but PJ's non-Photobucket-seeing ass now. Get off my back, people!

I see it now. Like I said, I haven't really read that issue in about 5 years so I forgot. Oddly, he has pants on the cover.

Speaking of that Feb. 2001 story, I see it as a cautionary tale for Colossus. By that I mean, he was selected to be sacrificed to end the then-meandering Legacy Virus subplot because nothing much was being done with him and no writer really had a handle on how to make him interesting. Colossus is a compassionate, often introverted, noble person who tries to avoid killing or being overly violent unless he absolutely has to, or loses his temper. As such, to many he comes off as boring in a universe that proclaims Wolverine their chosen son. There was a great buzz when he returned in 2004 and at first Whedon handled it very well; he approached the resurrection in human terms and he and Cassaday showed Colossus as both immediately useful and physically dynamic (as no one on the roster was a match for Ord). Then...nothing really, aside for sleeping with Kitty and seeming to appear a foot shorter than he should be.

That lesson is that measures have to be taken in story to make Colossus vital, important, and interesting without just turning him into an anti-hero, which he usually isn't (unless he is suffering from brain damage or emotional issues, as have happened in the past rather often). Otherwise it leads to apathy and that can literally become death to a B or C list character.

Perhaps randomly throwing Colossus at the Defenders is a way to starve this off, but that also means that Joe Casey has to live up to the challenge of making him work properly at all his potential. Colossus REALLY needs it. And I'd have a better sense of that happening except then there's She-Hulk; more popular (she's had well over 100 solo issues over the years, after all) and more powerful in the areas that Colossus usually excels in. Sure, some Handbooks go, "Colossus' strength has never clearly been defined", but he's always been around Thing level and Shulkie's supposed to be Class 100 now.

Really, having Colossus as one of your Top 5 favorite X-Men is almost a fool's errand because he has been misused, underappreciated, underutilized or underpowered far too often. And I am ****ing tired of seeing that happen.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Had a little bit of a Malin complex, did he?

 

[PhotoJones]

Who told you to provoke someone in power?

Uh, excuse me?

 

[Dread]

Uh, excuse me?

A mod has power. Calling someone a "bandwith thief" is provoking, whether it is true or not.

Imagine if I stormed up to a politician's office and demanded they live up to a campaign promise, or wanted them to own up to an outright lie or something. Firstly, I'd be promptly arrested, charged with unlawful entry. Then my public record would be looked at and if I ever was late on my taxes, ever got a parking ticket, ever saw a shrink, or ever used drugs, that data would be used to humilate and invalidate me. If I managed to be particularly irksome, said person in power would do everything possible to hamper my life and enjoyment.

The lesson is not to provoke people in power. Smile and go about your merry way.

On the other hand, mods get a lot of requests to do stuff pro-bono so sometimes tempers can be easily flared.

Hopefully this won't divert the topic from Defenders/Colossus too long. But it will.

 

[PhotoJones]

A mod has power. Calling someone a "bandwith thief" is provoking, whether it is true or not.

Imagine if I stormed up to a politician's office and demanded they live up to a campaign promise, or wanted them to own up to an outright lie or something. Firstly, I'd be promptly arrested, charged with unlawful entry. Then my public record would be looked at and if I ever was late on my taxes, ever got a parking ticket, ever saw a shrink, or ever used drugs, that data would be used to humilate and invalidate me. If I managed to be particularly irksome, said person in power would do everything possible to hamper my life and enjoyment.

The lesson is not to provoke people in power. Smile and go about your merry way.

On the other hand, mods get a lot of requests to do stuff pro-bono so sometimes tempers can be easily flared.

Hopefully this won't divert the topic from Defenders/Colossus too long. But it will.

The first thing that pops out is that you actually think it's wrong to demand accountability from people in power. I don't. Not demanding accountability is a big part of the reason we're in the mess we're in, politically speaking.

That's all beside the point, because it wasn't to provoke. It was a joke, complete with a and everything.

 

[Dread]

The first thing that pops out is that you actually think it's wrong to demand accountability from people in power. I don't. Not demanding accountability is a big part of the reason we're in the mess we're in, politically speaking.

I don't say it is wrong fundamentally. My opinion stems from the fact that little good rarely comes of it. People in power stay in power, and even when they step down due to term limits, or an underling as a scapegoat, or even the rare case when they are publicaly held accountable & punished, someone equally as corrupt takes their place. In the meantime, the lives of the hapless little people in society are used as pawns and whistle-blowers tend to be ruined more often than vindicated. I said provoking power or demanding accountability is dangerous and often counter-productive for the individual. Or at least that was what I meant.

People in power do for themselves and their cronies and only "do the right thing" when they are shamed into doing so (at least until attention dies down), or if said "thing" happens to be a favor to a crony or a means to an end (i.e. re-election, raise, etc). Statesmanship is mostly dead. But that is just how I see the current world.

That's all beside the point, because it wasn't to provoke. It was a joke, complete with a and everything.

I see. Sometimes people overreact. Sometimes someone has a bad day. Mods often are nagged via PM's constantly.

At the very least, something happened and the situation was fixed.

 

[PhotoJones]

I don't say it is wrong fundamentally. My opinion stems from the fact that little good rarely comes of it. People in power stay in power, and even when they step down due to term limits, or an underling as a scapegoat, or even the rare case when they are publicaly held accountable & punished, someone equally as corrupt takes their place. In the meantime, the lives of the hapless little people in society are used as pawns and whistle-blowers tend to be ruined more often than vindicated. I said provoking power or demanding accountability is dangerous and often counter-productive for the individual. Or at least that was what I meant.

People in power do for themselves and their cronies and only "do the right thing" when they are shamed into doing so (at least until attention dies down), or if said "thing" happens to be a favor to a crony or a means to an end (i.e. re-election, raise, etc). Statesmanship is mostly dead. But that is just how I see the current world.

And everyone's supposed to accept that? Yikes, man. When something's wrong and getting worse, you're supposed to want to change it for the better, not shrug your shoulders. And didn't you go to school for social work, or something? What's the point in helping people if the system is always going to hurt 10 more?

Jesus Christ. That's the saddest thing I've read today.

I see. Sometimes people overreact. Sometimes someone has a bad day. Mods often are nagged via PM's constantly.

At the very least, something happened and the situation was fixed.

Yes, sometimes people do overreact. When we do it, there are consequences. When people in power do it, there are not. That is wrong. That is my point. Accountability is crucial.

 

[Dread]

And everyone's supposed to accept that? Yikes, man. When something's wrong and getting worse, you're supposed to want to change it for the better, not shrug your shoulders. And didn't you go to school for social work, or something? What's the point in helping people if the system is always going to hurt 10 more?

Jesus Christ. That's the saddest thing I've read today.

Yeah, I am not a very optimistic person at heart. That is part of why I like comic books, specially superhero comics, where things like morality, compassion, caring for the innocent, that sort of thing, count for more than a sound byte.

I skipped grad school for now because I can't afford it and want to limit the financial slavery I will have to be in by taking loans for grad school. It has not helped my outlook any. The search for better work has been a grind.

As I have grown up and become an adult I try to see the world for what it is, not what I would like it to be. I would like things to get better, but they don't. I would like the corrupt to be purged, but they never are because people are easily corrupted.

I went into social work because despite my negativity I seem to feel more at peace when I help someone else. I presume no one is as stubborn as I am and I am usually correct. The act of helping others sometimes fulfills me. I can't describe it very well. In most areas of society, being self-less and compassionate is a weakness, one that will be exploited consistantly. In social work it is a strength, and is really the one thing that can starve off burnout because, as you've said, for every one person you save, 10 more seem to be lost, or need aid, or whatnot. The point of it is that saving that one person was valuable, and so is trying, and so is an institution that tries.

Yes, sometimes people do overreact. When we do it, there are consequences. When people in power do it, there are not. That is wrong. That is my point. Accountability is crucial.

But consequences need power to be enforced. People in power control that or at least know enough about it to weasel out.

Accountability is crucial, but it doesn't happen enough, and when it does happen, it merely changes the actors for the same story.

I don't disagree with your values, no. I am just saying that sometimes expecting the rest of the world to can be dangerous and can lead to some very real problems for you.

 

[PhotoJones]

Yeah, I am not a very optimistic person at heart. That is part of why I like comic books, specially superhero comics, where things like morality, compassion, caring for the innocent, that sort of thing, count for more than a sound byte.

I skipped grad school for now because I can't afford it and want to limit the financial slavery I will have to be in by taking loans for grad school. It has not helped my outlook any. The search for better work has been a grind.

As I have grown up and become an adult I try to see the world for what it is, not what I would like it to be. I would like things to get better, but they don't. I would like the corrupt to be purged, but they never are because people are easily corrupted.

So, you would just turn a blind eye and do what? Hope it goes it away? Pretend it doesn't exist? Or do what you do best and ***** about it?

That's beyond sad. That's beyond cynicism. That's straight up ******ed, man.

As people, we owe it to ourselves to do anything we can to work towards something better. Your attitude of lying down and letting things trample all over you is scary. That kind of attitude actually does harm.

 

[Dread]

So, you would just turn a blind eye and do what? Hope it goes it away? Pretend it doesn't exist? Or do what you do best and ***** about it?

No, I don't turn a blind eye, and that is the thick of it. Most of the world DOES that. Most are ignorant, and often choose to be. There is a saying, "ignorance is bliss", and when I was younger it didn't make sense to me, because I thought ignorance is also dangerous. But as I have gotten older, I have understood. Being intelligent, paying attention, having a strong enough moral center to know what is wrong when you see it no matter what spin you are given, these are things can't be shut off easily, least without some substance or injury. And this seems like an advantage at first until you realize that at least 90% of the world is full of people who aren't like that, who are ignorant, or selfish, or ambitious, caring only for themselves. Not only that, these types of people often control the fate of everyone else and the system is set up that way by ones who came before.

If I turned a blind eye, I'd have done what everyone else was doing at college; majoring in business to make money, or "liberal arts" to **** around.

If I did turn a blind eye, I probably wouldn't be nearly as cynical as I am. No, I see, but then I see how the world reacts, how things change or don't change.

That's beyond sad. That's beyond cynicism. That's straight up ******ed, man.

As people, we owe it to ourselves to do anything we can to work towards something better. Your attitude of lying down and letting things trample all over you is scary. That kind of attitude actually does harm.

What you fail to understand is that people in power don't WANT change and won't ALLOW it to happen because there is no better for them; the status quo got them there, and that is what will stay. You fail to understand that most people don't want something better for whatever reason. And they will actively destroy those that do.

2005's THE LORD OF WAR had a good line along this premise:

They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."

You provoked, whether by accident or whatever, someone in authority and they ****ed you over for it. I was trying to tell you, as a life rule, to at least be careful which authority you provoke, and to be aware of it.

 

[PhotoJones]

No, I don't turn a blind eye, and that is the thick of it. Most of the world DOES that. Most are ignorant, and often choose to be. There is a saying, "ignorance is bliss", and when I was younger it didn't make sense to me, because I thought ignorance is also dangerous. But as I have gotten older, I have understood. Being intelligent, paying attention, having a strong enough moral center to know what is wrong when you see it no matter what spin you are given, these are things can't be shut off easily, least without some substance or injury. And this seems like an advantage at first until you realize that at least 90% of the world is full of people who aren't like that, who are ignorant, or selfish, or ambitious, caring only for themselves. Not only that, these types of people often control the fate of everyone else and the system is set up that way by ones who came before.

If I turned a blind eye, I'd have done what everyone else was doing at college; majoring in business to make money, or "liberal arts" to **** around.

If I did turn a blind eye, I probably wouldn't be nearly as cynical as I am. No, I see, but then I see how the world reacts, how things change or don't change.

What you fail to understand is that people in power don't WANT change and won't ALLOW it to happen because there is no better for them; the status quo got them there, and that is what will stay. You fail to understand that most people don't want something better for whatever reason. And they will actively destroy those that do.

2005's THE LORD OF WAR had a good line along this premise:

They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."

You provoked, whether by accident or whatever, someone in authority and they ****ed you over for it. I was trying to tell you, as a life rule, to at least be careful which authority you provoke, and to be aware of it.

Your argument is inherently flawed. You say that I provoked. That implies that I did something wrong. Calling someone in authority out because they did something wrong is not provoking. It's not wrong. Until you realize that, you will continue to be a part of very large problem.

Also, you say that you do not turn a blind eye, that you can see and recognize bad things when they happen. Good. Now, do something about it, instead of accepting it. You say that to fight is futile, because the people in charge will never let you win. You say it's better to not try at all. THAT is turning a blind eye. Recognizing a ****ed up system and doing nothing to try and make it better is turning a blind eye.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

You can provoke someone without doing anything wrong.

 

[PhotoJones]

The way he keeps saying it, it's implying that it's my fault. That's it's wrong to provoke, and that my actions were intended for no other reason but to provoke. He's wrong on all accounts.

 

[Dread]

Your argument is inherently flawed. You say that I provoked. That implies that I did something wrong. Calling someone in authority out because they did something wrong is not provoking. It's not wrong. Until you realize that, you will continue to be a part of very large problem.

Dictionary.com's definition of "provoke":

pro·voke /prəˈvoʊk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pruh-vohk] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -voked, -vok·ing.
1. to anger, enrage, exasperate, or vex.
2. to stir up, arouse, or call forth (feelings, desires, or activity): The mishap provoked a hearty laugh.
3. to incite or stimulate (a person, animal, etc.) to action.
4. to give rise to, induce, or bring about: What could have provoked such an incident?
5. Obsolete. to summon.

None of that says anything was done wrong, and I never said what you did was morally or fundamentally wrong. I have said that doing was was an error because it caused a bad reaction for you.

Also, you say that you do not turn a blind eye, that you can see and recognize bad things when they happen. Good. Now, do something about it, instead of accepting it. You say that to fight is futile, because the people in charge will never let you win. You say it's better to not try at all. THAT is turning a blind eye. Recognizing a ****ed up system and doing nothing to try and make it better is turning a blind eye.

Going into social work and trying to help people when I can is what I do.

You're still in the stage where you believe goodness can win in the world with enough strength. There's nothing I can do and we are bound to disagree.

You can provoke someone without doing anything wrong.

Yeah.

It is amazing how we went from Colossus' trunks to this.

I'd like to get back on topic, so I won't reply to anything more on this subject. I don't like spiraling too deep into my cesspool of cynicism.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

The way he keeps saying it, it's implying that it's my fault. That's it's wrong to provoke, and that my actions were intended for no other reason but to provoke. He's wrong on all accounts.

Oh, I just skimmed over all that. I was just pointing out that it is indeed possible to provoke without being wrong. If you banged my wife and I punched you in the face, I'd be provoking you into a fight but I sure as hell wouldn't be wrong. Granted, you provoked me first by being an a**hole and banging my wife, for which I will always hate you, but you get what I'm saying.

Also, don't ever bang my wife 'cause I'll totally punch you in the face. Probably kick you in various places, too. Fair warning.

 

[Dread]

Oh, I just skimmed over all that. I was just pointing out that it is indeed possible to provoke without being wrong. If you banged my wife and I punched you in the face, I'd be provoking you into a fight but I sure as hell wouldn't be wrong. Granted, you provoked me first by being an a**hole and banging my wife, for which I will always hate you, but you get what I'm saying.

Also, don't ever bang my wife 'cause I'll totally punch you in the face. Probably kick you in various places, too. Fair warning.

Exactly.

 

[PhotoJones]

None of that says anything was done wrong, and I never said what you did was morally or fundamentally wrong. I have said that doing was was an error because it caused a bad reaction for you.

To use Eliyja as an example: You say that Eliyja's overreaction was due to me provoking him. To place ownership of the overreaction on me, you're saying that it's my fault. Eliyja's overreaction has nothing to with provoking. It's due to him not being a good authority figure. Do you understand? You can't place the responsibility of a negative reaction on my shoulders and then turn around and say there's nothing wrong with me or what I did.

Eliyja overreacted because that's who he is. I had nothing to do with it.

Going into social work and trying to help people when I can is what I do.

You're still in the stage where you believe goodness can win in the world with enough strength. There's nothing I can do and we are bound to disagree.

Haha, you phrase it like you're more advanced than I am. I bet you didn't even realize you did that. That's funny. For the record, I don't blindly have the optimism to believe that good will always prevail over evil, or anything like that. I do believe that we are worthless to society unless we work to strive for something better. It might not work, but we can try.

 

[PhotoJones]

Oh, I just skimmed over all that. I was just pointing out that it is indeed possible to provoke without being wrong. If you banged my wife and I punched you in the face, I'd be provoking you into a fight but I sure as hell wouldn't be wrong. Granted, you provoked me first by being an a**hole and banging my wife, for which I will always hate you, but you get what I'm saying.

Also, don't ever bang my wife 'cause I'll totally punch you in the face. Probably kick you in various places, too. Fair warning.

That's a completely different scenario. Your reaction would result from the provoking from my action. But what about if I came up to you and said, "Hey man, how's it going?" and your reaction was to punch Dread in the face? Did I provoke you? No, I didn't. You punched Dread because you're a *****ebag. My actions don't warrant your actions, and thus cannot be pinned down on me. In that scenario, Dread didn't get punched in the face because of anything I said or did. He got punched in the face because of something you did.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Oh, I just skimmed over all that. I was just pointing out that it is indeed possible to provoke without being wrong. If you banged my wife and I punched you in the face, I'd be provoking you into a fight but I sure as hell wouldn't be wrong. Granted, you provoked me first by being an a**hole and banging my wife, for which I will always hate you, but you get what I'm saying.

Also, don't ever bang my wife 'cause I'll totally punch you in the face. Probably kick you in various places, too. Fair warning.

Wouldn't you need a wife (or girlfriend, even) first?

 

[PhotoJones]

And the hits just keep on coming. Seriously, I'm starting to feel bad for Corp. You abuse him.

 

[Anubis]

Yeah, but he likes it like that.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Really, having Colossus as one of your Top 5 favorite X-Men is almost a fool's errand because he has been misused, underappreciated, underutilized or underpowered far too often. And I am ****ing tired of seeing that happen.

Then I am a fool on an errand!