Superman Returns The lifting of NK = Utterley Heroic?

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I think that's in All-Star Superman, just got volume 1 earlier in the week but I haven't read it. For the record ASS is an 'alternate take' on SUperman and not regular continuity.

Well, in 'Our Worlds At War' Superman plunges himself into the middle of the Sun to make himself more powerful. Sun- rays re-charge him, the naturally, the closer he is the more powerful he is.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

It's like TheComicbookKid said.....the Kryptonian crystal didn't expand itself into either the FOS or NK.....it made Earth material mold, meld, blend, move itself into a facsimilie of Kryptonian culture (a small part actual Kryptonian, a large part Earthian)...so it looked outwardly like Kryptonian crystaline constructure, felt lije K-c-c, but was made predominately of Earth materials. This was the same for the green Kryptonite shard. The clear crystal caused the green K to meld with Earth material and spread throughout the island mass of NK....but it wasn't now pure green K, but a diluted form of it.

I dont think it is just a theory C.Lee, it is stated in the movie, the crystals "....Inherit the traits of the minerals around them...."

Therefore, the crystal inherits the traits of BOTH the earth AND the kryptonite, so the kryptonite is obviously diluted.

If you pour lemonade into a glass of lager, does remain pure lager, or does it become a shandy?

 

[afan]

I dont think it is just a theory C.Lee, it is stated in the movie, the crystals "....Inherit the traits of the minerals around them...."

Therefore, the crystal inherits the traits of BOTH the earth AND the kryptonite, so the kryptonite is obviously diluted.

If you pour lemonade into a glass of lager, does remain pure lager, or does it become a shandy?

A question....
As we are to undertsand it, and hence base further disscussions from a common supposition.......

Does the crystal create matter, or does it re-shape existing matter?

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

A question....
As we are to undertsand it, and hence base further disscussions from a common supposition.......

Does the crystal create matter, or does it re-shape existing matter?

I think it inherits the traits of matter t:

 

[afan]

I think it inherits the traits of matter t:

......and then ?

 

[El Payaso]

And then Superman flies to the sun and he's able to lift the damn rock with his last bits of strenght.

 

[C. Lee]

A question....
As we are to undertsand it, and hence base further disscussions from a common supposition.......

Does the crystal create matter, or does it re-shape existing matter?

In my opinion, it reshapes and reorganizes....The original green crystal in STM re-shaped existing matter to make the FOS.....the clear crystal in SR also reshaped and reorganized existing Earth material into Kryptonian like material.....and I believe that there is the possibility that if used correctly, the crystals can use nano technology to reshape material into things more complicated than land masses.

 

[afan]

In my opinion, it reshapes and reorganizes....The original green crystal in STM re-shaped existing matter to make the FOS.....the clear crystal in SR also reshaped and reorganized existing Earth material into Kryptonian like material.....and I believe that there is the possibility that if used correctly, the crystals can use nano technology to reshape material into things more complicated than land masses.

Possibly, but does SR support that..............

Lex Luthor learns in the FOS exactly how Kryptonian technology functions("Tell me everything.")

His grand scheme, detailed I believe by the maps in the yacht, calls for most of North America to be rapidly placed below sea level. The rising sea levels a direct result of the creation of New Krypton. This calls for a massive and catastrophically quick displacement of the oceans waters by New Krypton, but if the crystal is reshaping existing matter then no displacement results, and no flooding of North America occurs.

Assuming that Luthor fully understands the functions of the crystals, and his expectations regarding rising sea levels, the conclusion should be that the crystals create new matter; the introduction of said new matter into the oceans, rising sea levels and submerging much of North America.

 

[C. Lee]

Unless....the matter being reshaped is the matter that already exists as North America. If most of it is pulled away from it's current placement on the earth, and rearranged into a different configuration in a different place on the Earth.....then the map would show it as disappearing. The map that Lex shows doesn't say that North America is flooded....it just shows that it is no longer there.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Possibly, but does SR support that..............

Lex Luthor learns in the FOS exactly how Kryptonian technology functions("Tell me everything.")

His grand scheme, detailed I believe by the maps in the yacht, calls for most of North America to be rapidly placed below sea level. The rising sea levels a direct result of the creation of New Krypton. This calls for a massive and catastrophically quick displacement of the oceans waters by New Krypton, but if the crystal is reshaping existing matter then no displacement results, and no flooding of North America occurs.

Assuming that Luthor fully understands the functions of the crystals, and his expectations regarding rising sea levels, the conclusion should be that the crystals create new matter; the introduction of said new matter into the oceans, rising sea levels and submerging much of North America.

Well, IMO, and your post supports this, it create's new matter that takes on the characteristics of the minerals around it.

 

[afan]

Unless....the matter being reshaped is the matter that already exists as North America. If most of it is pulled away from it's current placement on the earth, and rearranged into a different configuration in a different place on the Earth.....then the map would show it as disappearing. The map that Lex shows doesn't say that North America is flooded....it just shows that it is no longer there.

But the crystal is not in contact with continental North America, it is in contact with the ocean floor.

 

[afan]

Well, IMO, and your post supports this, it create's new matter that takes on the characteristics of the minerals around it.

Then the issue of diluted Green K needs to be re-examined.......
If the crystal creates new matter, wouldn't it follow that the matter created should be as pure as the samples it is in contact with?

 

[C. Lee]

But the crystal is not in contact with continental North America, it is in contact with the ocean floor.

When Supes is flying over the ocean....he sees a ripple through the water heading towards Metropolis....and then Metropolis starts shaking apart....so, either the crystal managed to sink to the bottom and touch the ocean floor (which touches the mainland of North America)....or.....by the crystal touching the ocean (which touches the mainland) it's effects are also transferred to the North American land mass (ecause we do see that it is effected by the crystal's power).

 

[C. Lee]

Then the issue of diluted Green K needs to be re-examined.......
If the crystal creates new matter, wouldn't it follow that the matter created should be as pure as the samples it is in contact with?

He may be saying that....but I'm not. I say matter can be rearranged...but not created from nothing.....so the crystal rearranges earth material to be as close to Kryptonian material as possible, but it can't make it 100% the same....so diluted green K.

 

[afan]

He may be saying that....but I'm not. I say matter can be rearranged...but not created from nothing.....so the crystal rearranges earth material to be as close to Kryptonian material as possible, but it can't make it 100% the same....so diluted green K.

But that's the crux of the matter.
How does the crystal function, and how does the function affect the purity of the Green K.

As we know (so far) matter can neither be created nor destoyed.

Yet if the crystal is rearranging matter no fluid displacment can occur in the ocean, no flooding occurs, a scenario under which North America remains, and New Krypton is not the prime real estate Luthor intends it to be.

Now if the crystal is using as you suggest the matter of continental North America, specifically and immediately Metropolis, then why is the city or a fairly big chunk of it not vanishing as the crystal rearranges its matter to form New Krypton?

And another thing.......

If New Krypton is rearranged matter and Superman excises that matter carrying it into orbit, would not that be the most catastrophic course of action possible for the Man of Steel, as he is in fact ripping away an enormously large chunk of the Earth. Let's not forget the man knows his geological tectonics.

 

[C. Lee]

But that's the crux of the matter.
How does the crystal function, and how does the function affect the purity of the Green K.

The crystals most likely work like the "replicator's" in Star Trek ......rearranging material on the molecular level into the desired object. In this way, it can make earth material look like the green K, but it can't re-create the radiation that it is saturated with....making it diluted.

As we know (so far) matter can neither be created nor destoyed.

Yup.

Yet if the crystal is rearranging matter no fluid displacment can occur in the ocean, no flooding occurs, a scenario under which North America remains, and New Krypton is not the prime real estate Luthor intends it to be.

The crystal is pulling the raw material away from the existing continent of North America, and moving it's location further East (where there is only ocean) and reconfiguring it to look like the island of NK that we saw. This means that, the ocean wasn't rising and covering the land...but the land was being removed. If you were standing in the state of Virginis....you wouldn't be watching the water rise up to cover you, but rather the land disinegrate out from under you. This process was still going on when superman tossed it into space....it wasn't complete yet, so it didn't look like prime real estate.

Now if the crystal is using as you suggest the matter of continental North America, specifically and immediately Metropolis, then why is the city or a fairly big chunk of it not vanishing as the crystal rearranges its matter to form New Krypton?

Superman ripped the steadily transmuting area out of the Earth before it could change much of Metropolis. Remember....we see that Metropolis is being effected by the making of NK....if Nk was simply being made from nothingness, the only thing that would effect Metropolis would be the rising of the ocean as it is displaced by NK....but we see Metropolis start to shake,crack, ripple,and bulge.....this is from material starting to be pulled from it for the creation of NK.

And another thing.......

If New Krypton is rearranged matter and Superman excises that matter carrying it into orbit, would not that be the most catastrophic course of action possible for the Man of Steel, as he is in fact ripping away an enormously large chunk of the Earth. Let's not forget the man knows his geological tectonics.

It's a choice of worse of two evils. Do you allow the continued transformation of a chunk of the Earth's surface that will lead to the deaths of billions....or do you risk ripping a hunk of the Earth off of the surface and sending it into space. The island of NK was large....but no where near as large as it was going to get. The removing of it will cause some problems (small tsunamis are most likely) but not near the problem that some have speculated.

 

[Rob-el]

The crystals most likely work like the "replicator's" in Star Trek ......rearranging material on the molecular level into the desired object. In this way, it can make earth material look like the green K, but it can't re-create the radiation that it is saturated with....making it diluted.
Yup.

The crystal is pulling the raw material away from the existing continent of North America, and moving it's location further East (where there is only ocean) and reconfiguring it to look like the island of NK that we saw. This means that, the ocean wasn't rising and covering the land...but the land was being removed. If you were standing in the state of Virginis....you wouldn't be watching the water rise up to cover you, but rather the land disinegrate out from under you. This process was still going on when superman tossed it into space....it wasn't complete yet, so it didn't look like prime real estate.
Superman ripped the steadily transmuting area out of the Earth before it could change much of Metropolis. Remember....we see that Metropolis is being effected by the making of NK....if Nk was simply being made from nothingness, the only thing that would effect Metropolis would be the rising of the ocean as it is displaced by NK....but we see Metropolis start to shake,crack, ripple,and bulge.....this is from material starting to be pulled from it for the creation of NK.

It's a choice of worse of two evils. Do you allow the continued transformation of a chunk of the Earth's surface that will lead to the deaths of billions....or do you risk ripping a hunk of the Earth off of the surface and sending it into space. The island of NK was large....but no where near as large as it was going to get. The removing of it will cause some problems (small tsunamis are most likely) but not near the problem that some have speculated.

Technically if NK was made up of earth material then removing it has reduced earth's mass and therefore affected

Earth's gravitaional pull on things on the earth (reducing it)
Earth's and the moons garvitional relationship (thus affecting tides) and the moon's orbit
Earth's realtion to the sun and therefore Earth's orbit.

Now I know the scene of Superman lifting NK indicates its not that massive but still would have its impact and what would these impacts be and how severe!? Hmmm!

 

[C. Lee]

Technically if NK was made up of earth material then removing it has reduced earth's mass and therefore affected

Earth's gravitaional pull on things on the earth (reducing it)
Earth's and the moons garvitional relationship (thus affecting tides) and the moon's orbit
Earth's realtion to the sun and therefore Earth's orbit.

Now I know the scene of Superman lifting NK indicates its not that massive but still would have its impact and what would these impacts be and how severe!? Hmmm!

I'm sure it would have some kind of impact on those things....but I don't think it would be anything catastrophic. Theoreticly....Supes could go get an asteroid of approximate size as Nk and place it in the whole he created when throwing out the island.....as long as he does it slowly.

 

[El Payaso]

Posting in this thread = utterly heroic?

 

[C. Lee]

Posting in this thread = utterly heroic?

I don't think it's heroic....just one of the calmer discussions around here.t:

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Then the issue of diluted Green K needs to be re-examined.......
If the crystal creates new matter, wouldn't it follow that the matter created should be as pure as the samples it is in contact with?

If it is creating one new matter at a time then yes. BUT in SR, the crystal is inheriting the traits of BOTH the Kryptonite AND the ocean floor at the same time, meaning the kryptonite will not be pure as it also has traits of earth within it. Same thing with the earth, it wont be pure earth because it inherited the traits of kryptonite at the same time.

Hence why NK is a hybrid of both earth and kryptonite, its not one or the other, it has elements of both, but not ALL of the elements.

 

[afan]

The crystals most likely work like the "replicator's" in Star Trek ......rearranging material on the molecular level into the desired object. In this way, it can make earth material look like the green K, but it can't re-create the radiation that it is saturated with....making it diluted.

I can agree with this and was actually thinking along the same lines, however if it can't replicate the fatal radioactive properties of the Green K sample than your dilluted Green K theory is being overly generous in supporting it's inconsistant presentation in SR.

BUT in SR, the crystal is inheriting the traits of BOTH the Kryptonite AND the ocean floor at the same time, meaning the kryptonite will not be pure as it also has traits of earth within it. Same thing with the earth, it wont be pure earth because it inherited the traits of kryptonite at the same time.

Hence why NK is a hybrid of both earth and kryptonite, its not one or the other, it has elements of both, but not ALL of the elements.

If I understand your position correctly you are presenting a different argument than C.Lee is.

C.Lee is arguing that the crystal is not capable of replicating Green K because the raw molecular material it has available to work with is Terran not Kryptonian, hence it cannot create pure Green K only a facsimile.(if I am misrepresenting his position i apologize). That I get.

You though are saying that although the Green K replicated is pure it's mixture with Earth elements make's it less lethal, and that some elements both Terran and Kryptonian are lost in the mixing? I don't understand how mixing it with Earth elements weakens it or how elements of both are lost. Mixing ingredients does not negate the purity of the ingredients. Does it?
Further does the visual evidence of SR support the "mixing" theory you have adopted, visually, isn't the Green K element of New Krypton easily identifiable in the film?

 

[BareKnucklez]

Ok, so i love all of the other action scene's in the movie, especially the plane scene which is one of the best action scene's in ANY CB movie IMO. But, if you look at it, Superman was never in danger himself in that scene. I know, i know Superman is always thinking of others, but there is no danger whatsoever to him in that scene and this is why the lifting of NK just 'gets' to me more on an emotional level. Had Superman failed to save the plane, yes thousands would have potentially died, but Superman would have still been there to prevent other disasters around the world. But in the lifting of NK scene, there is just so much more at stake.

If Superman fails in this scene, not only do "Billions" of people die, but so does Superman, and this is pretty certain considering he almost dies by simply succeeding to get it off of Earth. Not only would the Earth lose a country or two, but it would lose its great hero also. I know many of the haters didnt like this scene and found it boring or repetitive, but i find it to be one of THE most heroic acts in any Superhero movie, and that is something i expect of Superman in ANY medium, any one else agree?

Given that it's probably the WORST plot device ever conceived in a CB movie by the main badguy! The scene also is badly done in the sense that he has KRYPTONITE in his face, and he's still able to lift NK off the ground!
This is just ******ed as we know Kryptonite KILLS SUPERMAN!

Oh, and how can he land on NK, and NOT FEEL the fx of Kryptonite until Lex see's him sweating? That makes no sense!

Kryptonite doesn't make him human! It kills him! He should have fallen to his knees the moment he landed on it, and slumped over in pain.

Bad scene, Bad plot device, and bad bad movie...

By the way im sure some people in the movie died when the Wing Singerman tore off the plane landed on top of their homes!

He didn't even bother to find out what happened to the wing lol those poor souls!

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

If I understand your position correctly you are presenting a different argument than C.Lee is.

C.Lee is arguing that the crystal is not capable of replicating Green K because the raw molecular material it has available to work with is Terran not Kryptonian, hence it cannot create pure Green K only a facsimile.(if I am misrepresenting his position i apologize). That I get.

You though are saying that although the Green K replicated is pure it's mixture with Earth elements make's it less lethal, and that some elements both Terran and Kryptonian are lost in the mixing? I don't understand how mixing it with Earth elements weakens it or how elements of both are lost. Mixing ingredients does not negate the purity of the ingredients. Does it?
Further does the visual evidence of SR support the "mixing" theory you have adopted, visually, isn't the Green K element of New Krypton easily identifiable in the film?

We can spot the green k yes, but have your noticed, its a lot darker than the pure K Lex has in that scene and earlier in movie.

And mixing ingrediants does change the effect or taste if you will of whatever you are mixing doesnt it. As i said earlier, its like filling up half a pint of lager with half a pint of lemonade. When you do this, you dont end up with pure lemonade or pure lager do you? You end up with a shandy .

Hence, if the crystal is taking on the characteristics of BOTH the earth AND the green K at the same time, what you get is not a pure form of both, but a hybrid. Meaning the green k on NK is definately diluted IMO.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Given that it's probably the WORST plot device ever conceived in a CB movie by the main badguy! The scene also is badly done in the sense that he has KRYPTONITE in his face, and he's still able to lift NK off the ground!
This is just ******ed as we know Kryptonite KILLS SUPERMAN!

Oh, and how can he land on NK, and NOT FEEL the fx of Kryptonite until Lex see's him sweating? That makes no sense!

Kryptonite doesn't make him human! It kills him! He should have fallen to his knees the moment he landed on it, and slumped over in pain.

Bad scene, Bad plot device, and bad bad movie...

By the way im sure some people in the movie died when the Wing Singerman tore off the plane landed on top of their homes!

He didn't even bother to find out what happened to the wing lol those poor souls!

If you bother to watch that scene, you can clearly see in the background that the plane is over the ocean at that point.