Gotham The Man Before The Smile

[The Question]

I don't necessarily see evil as a factor in The Joker's character. Evil is born of petty things, fear, greed, selfishness, etc. The Joker is bigger than that. He's something much more primal and terrible than evil. He's "not right." I get a sort of Lovecraft vibe off of, him, if that makes sense.

 

[Rodrigo90]

He's perceived as evil.

But evil, of course, is simply a construct of definition.
You're defined by others through evil actions.
If somebody mentally ill murders someone, somebody completely devoid of a rational mind and is only stirred by violent impulses, something that he can't help with, should we deem him evil?
He committed an atrocity, but was it born out of evil or mental illness? And if it was mental illness, is that person evil? Or deemed it by us because of his actions, without him being "evil" minded, just very sick?

Joker knows full well what he does. And rare occasions, there are glimpses of humanity inside of him. He's perceived as evil by normal society, obviously.
But he's not evil born from the worst of basic human traits. He doesn't set out to be. He does what he does because he knows he's not on the inside of society. He feels no need to operate normally, because to him, the world is not normal. ...it's just a big bad joke. He sees his own belief of reality, outside of the social norm.
He is his own idea of truth and sanity in an insane world.

 

[Rodrigo90]

According to AAASHOSE, Joker cannot be classified as insane. Rather, he has a mysterious neurological disorder that enables him to cope with the world around him, that prevents him from becoming insane. He has no consistent personality and can any day become anything he wants and do anything he wants without any constraints. The pressures of maintaining a healthy frame of sanity don't apply to him because he can shape and adapt to something, without the issue of mentally breaking down.

His sense of humour in the face of the worst of things imaginable to a sane person, is a twisted form of positive psychology. So by right, his mind is actually healthy and incapable of falling victim to insanity. Living a normal and happy life is a hard and probably non existent thing. So, why do we do it? Because it's the right thing and logical?
Joker doesn't see the point in it, because his mind is incapable of it. He steers away from the pressures of normality that can, at any given time, break the mind in any circumstance. Not because he wants to, it's just how his mind operates. We wouldn't dare free ourselves in the way he has...because it's "evil and insane"... We can't live life like it's a joke, because we need to maintain our normality and morality in order to effectively operate in a normal life under a normal society - it's insane. We can't go back to how violent and impulsive we were years ago without remembering the rules of law and order, because we'd be deemed evil and or insane by society...Joker operates mentally away from all that reasoning.

So, to us normal people, he is evil and insane. Medically and philosophically, however, Joker is the sanest person on the planet.
Morals don't apply to him, because he sees no logic in them. They're mental restraints imposed by law and order, that hold back the true nature of human civilization, according to his mind frame.
Joker is what he thinks human beings are deep down, and he doesn't choose this. He is what he is by his own mind. Devoid of morals, law and order, logic, imposed by humanity and decency.
Like said, something primal of the early stages of human beings, mixed in with the absurdity of world of the 21st century. Absurdity of existence, absurdity of law and order, good and evil, the 21st century, sanity and insanity, life and death. Joker copes with these social issues by laughing at them, keeping himself sane in the process.

Millions of years ago, we wouldn't of thought he was evil or insane like we do today. We would've accepted his once humanistic nature and true idea of the world...

 

[Rodrigo90]

So the horror with the Joker is, he's not evil and he's not insane.

He's only deemed those things, by us, who have been raised to believe what he says and does is evil and insane. When in actual fact, he's the face and mind and reflection of what really are if we freed ourselves from law and order and the belief system of our very existence, created over the years by those looking for rationality and logic to a random and pointless event that gave birth to the universe.

 

[Rowsdower!]

Was it confirmed that the comedian in the script iO9 leaked was the guy who eventually becomes the Joker? I mean, that was my first thought when I heard there was a comedian there but it might be nothing.

Anyway, I do think it would be cool to have a pre-Joker character in the show, although I've always felt the Joker should be around the same age as Batman. While Batman '89 got away with making him older, I like the idea that the Joker can (at times) be somewhat of a physical threat to Batman.

Anyway, if they do show a pre-Joker character, I'd prefer him to not be a hardened criminal. I believe he should be an outsider... someone new to Gotham with no ties to the city whose previous life gets destroyed and who is born anew as the ultimate id.

One of the things that bugs me about Batman '89 is that Bruce knows right off the bat that the Joker is Napier because he recognizes him. I much prefer the Joker's past to be a blank slate to Batman and the cops. I remember this one comic years and years ago where Batman is standing front of the Bat Computer researching the Joker and all of the screens are flashing things like "IDENTITY UNKNOWN." I think that's one of the strongest aspects of the Joker's character... despite being the world's greatest detective, Batman has no idea who he is. I think it's okay if WE know his origin and who he was before he became the Joker... but Batman shouldn't know. That provides an interesting piece of frustration for the Dark Knight.

 

[Chrisbarnes182]

I like the failed comedian and dangerous criminal origins, but I prefer for him to have no origin. That kind of makes him, I don't know, God-like or something, but this is DC Comics, and you can get away with that here. No name, no background, he just is the Joker.

This would be my choice, no origin. Just do what Joker does turn up f##k sh#t up and leave t:

 

[shouldbeasleep]

Why can't they go with the fantastic old Killing Joke origin? I love how it makes you sort of pity the joker. I don't think he necessarily had to have had a psychological issue until the acid incident. Like the reason we know nothing about his origin is because he used to be so damn unassuming! Then it was a sudden turn of events that drove him insane.

 

[godisawesome]

I think some people (myself included) don't really want to pity the Joker. It also seems to kind of pull the Jokers more esoteric skills out of nowhere.

Also, there's probably a few like me whose first Joker origin was the bit in Mask of the Phantasm. Seeing the Joker as a dangerous, creepy, and scary guy who got worse kind of makes him cooler. Similar to the Zero Year Origin.

 

[The Shape]

I don't want to see a man become the Joker while Bruce is still a boy. In fact, I don't want to see the Joker appear before Bruce Wayne is Batman.

The other rogues they're using are fine, but I do feel that the Joker shouldn't exist without Batman.

 

[Rorschach2012]

i really just want Jack Napier. not Joker.

 

[Rodrigo90]

What's the line in the comics from the Joker?

I don't hate Batman because I'm evil. I'm evil because I hate him?

That works best.

 

[John Locke]

It's "I don't hate you because I am crazy. I am crazy because I hate you."

I don't think the Joker should appear. Joker's not the Joker without Batman. Although if he does appear I want it to be in the final episode as the final case. Or there could be multiple cases like the failed comedian or Jack Napier and we don't know which one becomes the Joker and neither does he. "If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

 

[The Caped Knight]

^ BINGO couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Sawyer]

Ideally, in my mind, the final season would use the basic framework of Batman: Year One. So, for me, I'd like the Joker sort of teased up until that point, shown a little more fully once the season gets rolling and then completely goes off the rails once Bruce makes Batman's presence known.

I kind of want the Mask of the Phantasm backstory, tbh.

 

[Rodrigo90]

If you notice, Ivy, Catwoman, Penguin, Riddler - they were all teased. And according to the leaked script, a comedian was stated to appear telling jokes in a club.

I think they'll make teases and references to the Pre Joker through out the show, without making him a main focus.

If anything, he'll probably be the Red Hood. It completely hides his identity and makes us believe he is without one, so he'll easily assume the Joker identity one day.

 

[Rodrigo90]

He goes from no identity, no face - to the Joker!

 

[CountOrlok]

I like the Jack Napier origin the best. I love that scene in Batman '89 where the guy just steps out of the shadows and he really does look like the Joker, no makeup even needed:

 

[gdw]

I love the ambiguity of the Joker pre-Joker. I thought the way they touched on it in TDK was brilliant. Wonderful nod to the Moore take.

For the show, why not have it all ways. That is, keep it ambiguous, but perhaps have characters, smaller parts, or perhaps minor re-occurring,, that COULD be pre-Joker Joker, but never actually have one precise one develop into him.

In other-words, it's like a murder mystery, and there are many potential suspects/candidates, but they never show exactly which one it ends up being.

Hell, the Red Hood gang could be introduced, and have some small connection, or contact, with different candidates.

The beauty would be that they may NEVER have to conclusively answer, so long as the series ends once Bruce dons the cape and cowl; which seems to be their end point anyways.

Heck, even if they do continue into some actual on screen Bat-time, they don't have to get to the point in his career with the fateful confrontation with the Red Hood(s.)
Even if they do, they can still play it out inconclusively, and not just because they'd be hooded.
The Red Hood gang could have it's hooks into the different candidates, and in multiple ways:
Perhaps the comedian owes them money, or some other debt, maybe they called it in that night, maybe they didn't, maybe they did, but they did not force him to lead the heist.
Maybe there's a clear psychopath in the gang, who's fascinated with Batman as well, and we never know exactly where he is, or under which hood.
etc etc etc.

Could be an interesting take to a mystery, playing it out in reverse almost, with the development/"investigation" (by the viewers) happening before the actual incident.

It'd be a cool way to actually HAVE the character in the show, without ever actually pinning down his origin.

 

[Rodrigo90]

The Red Hood gang fits a pre Joker perfectly.

He forces people who aren't criminals to join through blackmail.
They're unique anarchists, which Joker is.
It plays with the mystery of each members hidden identity, and as we know, Joker is hellbent on not having his past exposed to anyone, not even himself.

 

[gdw]

According to AAASHOSE, ...

What's AAASHOSE?

 

[Rodrigo90]

Arkham Asylum A Serious On Serious Earth

 

[Rowsdower!]

LOL

AAASHOSE almost sounds like something else entirely...

 

[gdw]

Ah, gotcha, thanks.

 

[gdw]

So looks like they definitely DO intend to bring in the Joker a some point, at least according to the show runner.

Even more intrigued now as to how they plan on doing it. He mentioned Killing Joke as a favourite in his research, so I don't think it's a stretch to assume they will be introducing a failing comedian at some point.

 

[Sawyer]

Yep...

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/05/08/gotham-interview/

Did you do a lot of research? And what’s your favorite Batman comic or film?
I did a lot of research, and what it told me is this world is a little like Greek or Roman mythology. There are so many iterations of the story and so many great versions [that] there is no one road to go down. And if you stick to one of those roads, then you lose other parts you could go down. I read everything I could and then — I didn’t throw it away, but I started fresh. I would hate to pick a particular Batman iteration because I would be dismissing others. But for me, The Killing Joke was one of the great ones in the comic books. Obviously the [Frank] Miller version [The Dark Knight], as well.

...

You mentioned The Killing Joke. So you’ll bring in The Joker?
He’s the crown jewel of the Batman villains. He will be brought in with great care and a lot of thought.

Some feel Heath Ledger’s performance was so iconic it would be a mistake to try to do that character again so soon.
I’ve written scenes for Julius Caesar and Marc Anthony and Cleopatra. So while that is a serious and valid note, you can’t get into doing this without going there. That was a wonderful performance and — apart from everything else — wonderful make-up. And we should try to live up to that. It will be a different character. It’s certainly going to be more Heath Ledger than Cesar Romero. But like I say, all of these people are real people with feelings and emotions and history and parents. I just build from that.

The "great care and a lot of thought" makes me happy he won't be rushed or shoehorned in.