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Gotham The Man Before The Smile

Rodrigo90

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There's a lot of heated discussion going on about the man who becomes the Joker.

Discuss here what you'd like to see the show give us.
Should he be fleshed out? Mysterious?
Should he be a hitman or a comedian?
A name? No name?

A philosophical man who became insane when he found out the world was nothing but a bad joke with no punchline?
A good hearted man, who changed into a monster due to life circumstances?
A suicidal hitman working for the mob who falls in love with the absurdity of Batman and finds a new reason to live?
A sadistic gangster wearing a red hood?

Whatever you like or don't like, discuss here!
 
The Alan Moore version of the origin is the best version. It's the most compelling, it creates the strongest character parallels between Joker and Batman, in embodies the themes of the Bat-mythos the most effectively, it makes The Joker much more three dimensional character, and it has the most story potential without going into a hyper-contrived thinly coded destiny narrative where "everything is connected" (Jack Napier killing the Waynes and whatnot).
 
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Agreed.

I don't agree with the Joker being evil from the start.
It's just uninspiring imo.
 
I like the failed comedian and dangerous criminal origins, but I prefer for him to have no origin. That kind of makes him, I don't know, God-like or something, but this is DC Comics, and you can get away with that here. No name, no background, he just is the Joker.
 
I want multiple candidate and I want all of them to slowly degrade into the Joker's world view as the show goes on. And I'd like the Red Hood Gang to be integral to both their rebirth and the show as a myth arc for how far Gotham's fallen.

Failed comedian gone desperate? Okay, but I want at least a few episode where he's in the gang to show him getting more and more detached from the people he's hurting and maybe acting a little like Walter White towards his family.

Jack-Napier-esque Trenchcoat and fedora man? Awesome, but play up his believe in the code of honor of the Mafiosi and have betrayals slowly beat him down into an angry nihlist, like watching Tony Montana get worse and worse and start breaking his own rules.

Hitman who grins to much? Make him an already messed up guy who nonetheless thinks he can carve out his own little niche and refuge in Gotham's landscape, than have his plans fall to shreds and have all his schemes go the way of the best-laid plans of mice and men, eventually becoming a nihlist.

Don't give him one giant Freudian excuse. show him start out relateable and then cross the Moral Event Horizon of his own free will.
 
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I like the metaphor of him being a "failed comedian".

However, I think if they're going to show the evolution of The Joker, it should be a slippery slope type descent into madness, not just "One Bad Day".
 
Yeah.

In TKJ, he clearly had mental problems before that fateful day.
 
I like the 89 Joker origin best, minus the murdering of the Wayne family. Maybe he could initially be sympathetic like in TKJ, but could eventually become the Napier in 89
 
Maybe he's always had a devious and ruthless streak.

I'd like to see him wiping all traces away of his past actually if he becomes a criminal before Joker.
Killing all his friends and family who know him, wiping away all his personal data. Perhaps even faking his own death.

Losing his identity and denouncing his former life to become a ruthless hit for hire.
Eventually working his way up to the red hood gang.

Relatively normal at first, but becomes increasingly psychotic and unhinged as time goes on.
 
I'd rather not see him at all. However, if they have to have him on the show, I'd like to see the "one bad day" concept explored.
 
I would prefer not to see him in the show. If they have to include him, I'd prefer they structure the episode like "Almost Got 'im." Have three different thugs supply their own account of what the Joker was before, and leave the audience to draw their own conclusions. Or, they could follow the beat of Zero Yearand have him as the ruthless leader of the Red Hood Gang who takes an acid bath.
 
Either an already psychopathic Red Hood or various characters that could each turn out to become the Joker (one bad day average joe; bad seed type of kid; or a sadistic hitman)
 
I wouldn't mind if it was just brief and if it ever boils down to it, it's brought up in spirts and whatever can be found like in The Man Who Laughs graphic novel.

I would like to KNOW, but to keep in tradition with the character and TKJ... keep it thinking and flowing with all sorts of stories and theories.
 
There's a lot of heated discussion going on about the man who becomes the Joker.

Discuss here what you'd like to see the show give us.
Should he be fleshed out? Mysterious?

The Joker works best when he's as mysterious as possible.

Should he be a hitman or a comedian?

Maybe it's because I grew up with BTAS, but I prefer the hitman angle. The Joker as a failed comedian is just so lame and cheesy to me.

A name? No name?

He should just be called Jack. Imagine the fangasming that would commence if a mob boss referred to some young thug as Jack.

A philosophical man who became insane when he found out the world was nothing but a bad joke with no punchline?
A good hearted man, who changed into a monster due to life circumstances?
A suicidal hitman working for the mob who falls in love with the absurdity of Batman and finds a new reason to live?
A sadistic gangster wearing a red hood?

I like the bolded. My favorite Joker is one for whom we have no sympathy at all. He was always a weirdo but his acid bath sent him over the edge into Crazytown.
 
I agree.

I'll call him "Jack" for arguments sake :hehe:

Before becoming Joker, Jack in almost every origin story, clearly has mental issues.
He's nowhere near sane prior to becoming the Joker.
Many stories, save TKJ (since that was implied to be in his head. Though the Riddler once confirmed that the events were true. Though he never elaborated on what kind of man Joker was. And Dick passed on rumours that Joker was once a failed comedian, though this may be false or even true, it's never confirmed. Joker was prompted with going after the gangsters he previously had dealings with), show him to be ruthless and sadistic.

The show is apparently going with the comedian angle, and that's fine. Who's to say he's not a criminal at the same time he's telling jokes.
I sense him being more a background character as opposed to prominent. He's pulling the strings in the show's background for a long while.
 
Where did you hear they're going with the comedian angle?
 
It was reported in that leaked script that io9 got a hold of.
Most of what they said is coming true.
 
The Joker works best when he's as mysterious as possible.

I disagree.

If you're not going to delve into the psychology of the character indepth, sure, he works better as a mystery. Because it's better than nothing.

But The Joker always, ALWAYS works best when his motivations, reaction to trauma and conflict and general worldview is explored, not as a simple "monster".
 
I don't know whether we should get his full story though.

A little throw back to the scene in B89 - say he's playing cards or something and somebody asks him his name and he pulls out a Jack card and he then says his name is, "Jack". Just to add to his mystery and his thing with cards.
 
Apparently he's supposed to be so funny onstage, he leaves Fish Mooney in stitches...
 
I imagine the Joker being a kid who Bruce left on the roof during recess.

And that's Batman creates the Joker. :cool:
 
Chemical vats shouldn't be left near schools :hehe:

And I'm really not interested in them portraying him with some mental disorder prior to becoming Joker.
It implies his evil stems from madness. Joker to me, has his madness stem from the evil and hatred within him.
"Burning, hate filled eyes". It'd be nice if they would work on Kane's original description as I believe it was important to understanding him.

To see a normal human being become a God like psychopath. That's terrifying to me.
 

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