Gotham The Man Before The Smile

I'm thoroughly hoping for deceit as to who becomes The Joker. To me he's the one character that you just shouldn't be able to guess who he is until the writers choose to make it clear who it is.

Everyone else's "true identity" is etched in stone so I really want to have some fun guessing with him. They probably need to cast a virtually un-known actor.

 

Whoever it will be, has to be a kid too..........

 

Are they the same age in the comics?

(and do they have to do the same thing as the comics considering that every CBM ever deviates from the source material?)

 

I don't think the Joker HAS to be the same age as Batman. I feel like he could be the same age as this show's Penguin, and I would think no less of the show.

He definitely shouldn't be younger, though, because that would be... weird.

 

If they wanted to have him close in age, but still portray him as an adult (for Gordon to deal with), they could make him 18, so only 6 years difference between him and Bruce, which is pretty much nothing when they get older.

We had a 5 year difference between Ledger/Bale and a 15 year difference between Keaton/Nicholson after all.

 

I love these discussions -

So what makes a joker..a joker..

I personally think he has to be some sort of engineer that's off, not incredibly, but something to show his intelligence, I often think if some of the engineer's in todays world go off the deep end..how much they could REALLY do and plan, to me - he's incredibly smart, tactical, and the opposite, he's amazing on the on the fly solutions. Now, i know everyone associates the Joker with being an embodiment of chaos, which is why I think he breaks the barriers with his logic..it's never flawed, his logic is there, it just...makes us all cringe a little thinking that it's justified.

So, my joker wouldn't be anything lunatic-ish, just off, it's like the kid at school who does speak, but not a whole lot, and when he does, it's something so out of this world, it just comes off as strange.

I'd rather him not be a criminal before hand, why? Because that's what makes him so dangerous in my eyes - that his reasoning is completely and utterly justified, and there's no sense in his mind "this is wrong." - when he does change into the joker or becomes the joker, I'd prefer some kind of life revelation which makes him....him, something that will release him from an eggshell, into the full thwarted criminal scum bag he is today, I look at the vat as the solution to release him, the final push of everything bottled up.


I'd love for them to dedicate an episode to show this, as we probably won't ever see a full length movie on the joker ever, but he truly is one of the few villains i find just as interesting as the hero.

I'm guessing it will be an hour long episode for each show, as that seems to be the standard now?

 

My idea would be to introduce a couple candidates who CAN be the Joker, but cross them out one by one, with the real Joker’s true identity being kept a secret. The real Joker should only be seen in brief glimpses, and with no face paint. What you should see from the real Joker is a clear escalation in his crimes, starting with simple murders, but then he slowly moves up to insane traps and elaborate schemes.

Here's how I would do it. Read at your own risk:

Spoiler

First, during the season 1, introduce a down-on-his-luck comedian who can’t get a laugh. Show his day from start to finish. His father is an ******* and a drunk and nobody gives him any respect. The only person in his life that cares about him at all is his girlfriend, who’s very supportive of his career, perhaps even being the only person who laughs at his jokes. That night, when he leaves the club he’s performing at, he’s attacked. His girlfriend is murdered in front of him. When the killer looks over at the comedian and sees his expression, the killer tells him that he “should smile more”, before slicing the sides of his mouth. When the victim is introduced to Detective Gordon, his name is revealed to be Jack Whiteman.

The episode should end with all clues leading to dead ends. Jim tells Whiteman that they haven’t found the man yet, but will keep looking. Whiteman responds by saying something to the effect of: “You know, it’s ironic. I spent so much time trying to get a smile out of people, but never smiled myself. Now, after all of this, after losing the most important person in my life, knowing that the man who took her from me is going to get away with no repercussions,” *gestures to cuts on mouth, dramatically* “NOW, I can’t stop smiling.” *Insane laughter*

Let people wonder whether Jack Whiteman is one of the Joker’s first victims, or the man who will one day become the Joker. With ending of that episode, there will probably be more people who think Jack is the Joker than people that think the killer is.

In season 2, introduce a new character, a hitman who wears a red hood. We should see the man out of his hood a few times. At least once should be him playing a game of poker, to make a few people’s minds move in that direction. Once should be with his family, a wife and a son, somewhere between the ages of 2 and 6. The police will be searching for the hitman, who they have dubbed “The Red Hood”, due to their case in this episode, but will be unable to find him by the end. The Red Hood should appear a couple more times during the first half of the season, but mostly in small roles.

Then, later, we see Jack Whiteman again. There’s a serial killer in Gotham now who leaves joker playing cards on top of the bodies of his victims. The first worked at a comedy club. Nobody initially realizes that it’s the same one Jack Whiteman use to work for, until Jack’s father becomes the second victim. Jack quickly becomes the prime suspect, and is arrested. Jim can see that Jack has clearly gone mad after the death of his girlfriend, and it’s not unreasonable to think he’s started killing people who he feels have wronged him. Then, the next body drops. The police realize that The Joker Killer, as they are now calling him, is the man that attacked Jack Whiteman and is trying to reach out to him by killing those that did him wrong. In this latest murder, there’s a witness who says that the man who did it was wearing a red hood. With this information, along with other clues that were at the crime scene, Jim is able to learn the identity of the red-hooded man, who they believe to be The Joker Killer, and the police search his home. By this time, the Red Hood is already gone.

At the end of the episode, the Red Hood makes a phone call to his wife, confessing to her that he was a gun for hire, and was getting paid good money to kill these people and place the cards over their body by an anonymous employer. He tells her that he believes the man that paid for these hits wanted him to take the fall for a past murder (that of Jack Whiteman’s girlfriend) as well as these ones he committed, and manipulated the investigation to lead the cops to him. Finally, he gives her the bank account number where he kept the excess money he made from his jobs, asking her to use it to take care of their son, Jason.

There’s another long break before we get back to the Joker storyline. This will be a two-part season finale. The Joker murders have begun again, this time, random people, random methods of killing. The only thing any of them have in common is that a joker playing card is left on their bodies. The first episode is the investigation into the murders. Jim and the Red Hood are both searching for him, though Jim still believes the Red Hood is The Joker Killer. However, their investigation is dangerous, because Joker has stepped up his game, now rigging his crime scenes with deadly traps. Toward the end of the episode, we see the Gotham PD figuring out where Joker’s hideout is. Then, we switch to a scene with the Red Hood confronting Joker. When the police get there, the Red Hood is dead, with a joker playing card on his chest.

Next, Jim gets a phone call from Joker, taunting him, before asking him if he wants a second chance. “You tried so hard, wasted so much effort on trying to find me, all for nothing... You know, I could give you a second chance. Would you like that? New evidence, fresh clues. It could be fun. Would you like another go at me?” Without fully comprehending the Joker’s meaning, Jim say yes, then you hear him cackling, followed by the sound of glass shattering one of the officer behind him (a love interest, perhaps?) gets a bullet in their head.

In the following episode, they realize it was a sniper from a nearby building that took the shot, but by the time they get there, the sniper is gone. Perhaps another officer is killed by the traps in the building. The rest of the episode is Joker “running away” from the police, leading them to an abandoned funhouse that he’s rigged with with traps more deadly than any at his crime scene. Here, Joker is God. Knowing where all of his traps are, as well as how to trigger them, he’s able to pick off the cops one by one, using everything from explosives, to bear traps, to laughing gas. Jim finds the Joker, has his gun locked on him, but Jim sees that he’s only a kid, about nineteen, and, even after seeing so many of his friends die by this madman, doesn’t have the heart to kill him, giving Joker time to escape.

For the time, the Joker killings stop. When they begin again, it will turn out to be a copycat, Jack Whiteman, who’s being guided by the actual Joker. At the end of the episode, Gordon is chasing Jack across the roof of a building, when Jack falls off into a vat of chemicals. For a few minutes, at least, you shoul think that perhaps Jack is the REAL Joker after all, before the police drag his body out of the chemicals and find that he’s completely and totally dead. In memory of his fallen ally, and first success at destroying a man’s soul, the Joker later begins using the alias, Jack White.

From this point on, the Joker episodes can largely be about how he created his criminal empire, with both the Red Hood and Jack Whiteman storylines killed off. The police will try to learn his identity, and he’ll troll them, leading them down false trails. We will slowly see him become more and more bold after the funhouse incident, moving on from just murder to elaborate schemes, manipulating the criminal underground and turning into the Joker we all know and love.

 

Batman 89?

 

I think The Red Hood gang is the way to go, they'd make a fantastic overarching season villain for the second season.

 

I pray they don't go with the original origin story. Even 10 year olds who want to get thrust into a fantasy world are going to feel insulted.

Batman '89 was a revolutionary movie based on a comic book, but if it had come out 6 years later in the internet age it would have been so trashed by critics and fanboys it would not have had the latitude it was given.

Having said that, I think they should be very careful not to make The Joker too elusive or to normal. Very tricky.

 

Needs reference to him being a chemist of some sort.

 

If they really want to play with us they will have several potential Jokers and never really confirm which one will be the Joker till the end.

 

I like that idea, a bunch of red herrings.

 

I should add that they may never reveal which one it was at all.

 

That would probably be the best for me. I mean once I've gotten someones back story other than what my imagination has composed, I tend to lose interest in the character that I am into. I would assume the Joker no matter how they do it would be a huge let down if they were to give him a definitive background story.

 

I'd do Joker as a failed comedian who becomes a rake that explores the Gotham underworld. To get an understanding of how the world really is, maybe trying to come to terms with something traumatic from his past.

 

We shouldn't know who he is. The actor should cameo like 18 times throughout the series, as different people in different situations. Sometimes as women, sometimes as a homeless man, sometimes as a salesperson/businessman.

Then in the final episode, when we hear rumors of the first sighting of the Batman we should see him leaving the scene of a crime where peoples faces have had smiles slit into them. Then we have to go back and watch every episode to find him, who he was and why he did it.

 

I like the idea of using the Red Hood as an overarching villain for a season and to help birth Joker.

 

I aswell like the idea of a Red Hood Gang to help develop Keep in mind like somebody said in Batman 89 Joker and Batman were so not the same age. So I think it wouldn't matter if they are not the same ages that much.

 

I think they will play with the one bad day issue. They may show up till that point he was a pretty average Joe just down on his luck. Then bam every thing gos side wise.

 

His origins in Lovers and Madmen is interesting and frightening.