H
Hobgoblyn
Guest
I think a lot of the arguements against Reese being set up to be the Riddler are incredibly short-sighted and ignorant. So let me dispell a couple of them.
1) There are no links!!: Uh... he LOOKS like the Riddler out of costume, his mannerisms MATCH what one would expect of the Edward Nashton pre-Lazarus pit, his name sounds like an alias that Riddler would use, his tie were reminiscent of the Riddler's costume, there was a break-in right after he was saved by Bruce Wayne and this background is not a far jump from the Batman Forever version of being a rejected and humiliated Wayne Corp employee.
2) Riddler is supposed to be bad ass!!: Kind of... BUT only when he is in control, only when he can hide behind a mask, only when he can answer questions with questions and do everything indirectly hiding behind heavy shielding or far away while his opponent sits in a death trap. Joker's substance is all about in-your-face style and laughing wildly as he is beaten, Riddler's substance is all about ****-eating-grinning that you found yourself 5 steps behind his plan as he sits safe from physical retalliation. Outside of his suit (pre-Lazarus pit) this is a character who can't talk to his crushes, can get mugged by biker girls, etc. He's never leveraged intimidation, simply "I know something you don't know and you want to know it SO bad you'll do what I want."
3) You have to have a big name actor to play the role and preferably with an academy award!: Uh... right. How'd that work out for Danny DeVito? Michelle Pfeiffer? Jim Carey? Tommy Lee Jones? Arnold?....
Oh, wait... you are hinging everything on having an Academy award!!
CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN!
CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN!
CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN!
Are we done with the "If you are an A-list celebrity, you'll make a Super Hero movie kick ass!"... because the best actors so far in the Super Hero movie genre aside from Ledger (who ALL of you said could NOT do the job!!) haven't exactly been acknowledged by the Academy and what, WHAT, pray-tell did you gleam from the role that Ledger was nominated for did you find applicable to his role as the Joker?
4) His name does not match the comics!: Well, this is true. On the other hand his life is in mortal danger and he probably just lost everything. Ever hear of a protection program? Ever hear of a new identity? He has the best reason in the world to change his name after this movie, but also every reason to be pissed off enough to more or less stick around until he find a way to stick it to those who have screwed him.
5) Nolan never said he would do the Riddler: Uh... LIAR! Or... ignorant, ignorant person. Every single indication that he has ever made about proposing doing a follow-up before and after this movie has been released, and not just him, but everyone who was asked about it hinted at or said straight out that they WOULD have the Riddler. Not a damn other thing about the movie may be decided except that the movie will have a Riddler.
6) This guy/that character is SO lame that would never make a good main event: And.. who pray tell said he'd be the MAIN event? It is quite possible, even likely, that the Joker WILL be recast. Yes, it sucks...but continuing the story with the Joker being totally absent seems unlikely. The Scarecrow is also slated to appear in another movie, but perhaps it'll be nothing more than his role in this one.
Moreover, while Nolan may have snubbed his nose at and given rather lofty responses aganst using the Penguin or the Catwoman... there is kind of this brick wall that an overwhelming majority of people who have even heard of Batman will expect and want there to be at least a Catwoman of some sort. So let's say he does them as close to realistic as possible... he has Penguin be a corrupt business man who is trying to salvage the criminal underworld from the mess Joker left behind and Catwoman is just a thief with some combat experience who, just like the dozen Batman imposters we saw in this movie, decides it might be to her benefit to copy cat Batman but loses the cape and gives herself a couple of climbing/cutting claws.
Everyone just said that there would be a Riddler, it did not say he would be trying to compete with the scariness of the Joker or that he'd be the entire focus of the movie. It just said he'd be around. We'd just have the Riddler in play no matter what else may or may not be true.
7) Riddler is supposed to be a bad ass!: Uh.. what?.. When?.. Where?.. You mean post-Lazarus and post-reforment when he has become a twisted and egotistical master detective?.. Okay, I'll give you that. But previous to that?... No matter what continuity you look at, Riddler outside of costume is a geek who can't talk to women (and possibly gets backstabbed by his crush), gets mugged by biker girls, got abused by his father, gets brow-beaten into submission and cheated by a boss... a man who until he snaps and without his mask, without holding all the cards, without every reason to be confident of his position quickly backs-down, flees, and schemes up a new approach to take and may not even have the guts to take it. He is not super evil, he is not a mass-murderer, he is not about intimidation, fear and laughing in one's face cruelly. Ethically he is on the same murkey gray ground as Selina Kyle where you have to figure they are evil because they are pissed off, greedy and lazy rather than enjoying causing harm or destruction. He is not supposed to be a bad-ass and he is not supposed to compete with the Luficerian nature of the Joker.
Now, granted, they could do a scarier Riddler. Afterall, we did not see Joker with a carnival scene, we did not see him ranting about how Gotham was laughing at his "*****" and decreeing he'll show how many "boners" he can create, we didn't see him with a frankenstein hair-cut or a chin the size of a watermelon, he was not permanently bleached white, he did not use Joker green gas that made people laugh themself to death, he did not have killer jack-in-the-boxes or have henchmen that proudly displayed their names on their chests as "Larry", "Curley" and "Moe" or "Tweedle-Dee" and "Tweedle-dumb" or have pet hyenas simply because their bark sounds like laughter, we did not see him followed around by a hyper sexual clown girl for him to abuse... the list could go on.
But if the Riddler isn't in effect a pissed off geek whose simply snapped... then you lose what is really the main essence of the character, to a worse degree than if he never actually asks a riddle. And Mr. Reese in this film does a very good job of playing a geek who one can imagine becoming quite pissed off.
This doesn't mean that they will necessarily follow this storyhook through. Perhaps all this falls into place by accident. Maybe it just seems to fall into place only for those who want it to because of just how genius it would be for the origin of a major villain to have been worked into a seemingly minor storyline that would escape the gaze of any but the careful and calculating observer (and how could any fan of the Riddler be anything other than such?)...
Perhaps they never meant for it to come across as such. Perhaps they were considering it, testing the waters and toying with the idea but will not follow up on this plan because Hollywood is addicted to giving all roles in all major films to the same ridiculously small handful of actors until everyone is sick to death of seeing their faces and delights in their downfall in the pages of the celebrity-obsessed magazines or simply because after testing through they find that Joshua does not, in fact, possess the ability to convincingly turn his squirmy character into a criminal mastermind after a costume change. Perhaps this whole storyline was thrown in their for the sole purpose that IF they chose not to continue the movies THEN they could claim that post Dark Knight that Reese was the Riddler and since they WILL continue to the next movie they will scrap the idea for a new one.
But, you see, one of the biggest problems of now writing the Riddler well into a follow-up movie now that Reese exists is this... if you are going to have the Riddler, in addition to being a pissed off beaten red-headed stepchild geek, the very first OR very last thing you are going to want this character to do within the movie is to find out who Batman is and be unable to tell anyone for a reason other than death or disfigurement...
And if you just had a movie where some other weak-willed red-haired geeky man just figured out who Batman is and could not/cannot tell anyone...
Do... you see how this can create an incredibly LARGE problem to story progression? How exactly do you go from having a character who looks and sounds like the alter ego of your Supervillain having achieved that villain's crowning achievement to creating suspense and a story around that villain achieving that goal?...
It seems easier, if absolutely necessary, to recast the actor and claim that major plastic surgery was part of what the character did in order to create his new identity so that he could be safe from reprisal.
1) There are no links!!: Uh... he LOOKS like the Riddler out of costume, his mannerisms MATCH what one would expect of the Edward Nashton pre-Lazarus pit, his name sounds like an alias that Riddler would use, his tie were reminiscent of the Riddler's costume, there was a break-in right after he was saved by Bruce Wayne and this background is not a far jump from the Batman Forever version of being a rejected and humiliated Wayne Corp employee.
2) Riddler is supposed to be bad ass!!: Kind of... BUT only when he is in control, only when he can hide behind a mask, only when he can answer questions with questions and do everything indirectly hiding behind heavy shielding or far away while his opponent sits in a death trap. Joker's substance is all about in-your-face style and laughing wildly as he is beaten, Riddler's substance is all about ****-eating-grinning that you found yourself 5 steps behind his plan as he sits safe from physical retalliation. Outside of his suit (pre-Lazarus pit) this is a character who can't talk to his crushes, can get mugged by biker girls, etc. He's never leveraged intimidation, simply "I know something you don't know and you want to know it SO bad you'll do what I want."
3) You have to have a big name actor to play the role and preferably with an academy award!: Uh... right. How'd that work out for Danny DeVito? Michelle Pfeiffer? Jim Carey? Tommy Lee Jones? Arnold?....
Oh, wait... you are hinging everything on having an Academy award!!
CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN!
CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN!
CATWOMAN! CATWOMAN!
Are we done with the "If you are an A-list celebrity, you'll make a Super Hero movie kick ass!"... because the best actors so far in the Super Hero movie genre aside from Ledger (who ALL of you said could NOT do the job!!) haven't exactly been acknowledged by the Academy and what, WHAT, pray-tell did you gleam from the role that Ledger was nominated for did you find applicable to his role as the Joker?
4) His name does not match the comics!: Well, this is true. On the other hand his life is in mortal danger and he probably just lost everything. Ever hear of a protection program? Ever hear of a new identity? He has the best reason in the world to change his name after this movie, but also every reason to be pissed off enough to more or less stick around until he find a way to stick it to those who have screwed him.
5) Nolan never said he would do the Riddler: Uh... LIAR! Or... ignorant, ignorant person. Every single indication that he has ever made about proposing doing a follow-up before and after this movie has been released, and not just him, but everyone who was asked about it hinted at or said straight out that they WOULD have the Riddler. Not a damn other thing about the movie may be decided except that the movie will have a Riddler.
6) This guy/that character is SO lame that would never make a good main event: And.. who pray tell said he'd be the MAIN event? It is quite possible, even likely, that the Joker WILL be recast. Yes, it sucks...but continuing the story with the Joker being totally absent seems unlikely. The Scarecrow is also slated to appear in another movie, but perhaps it'll be nothing more than his role in this one.
Moreover, while Nolan may have snubbed his nose at and given rather lofty responses aganst using the Penguin or the Catwoman... there is kind of this brick wall that an overwhelming majority of people who have even heard of Batman will expect and want there to be at least a Catwoman of some sort. So let's say he does them as close to realistic as possible... he has Penguin be a corrupt business man who is trying to salvage the criminal underworld from the mess Joker left behind and Catwoman is just a thief with some combat experience who, just like the dozen Batman imposters we saw in this movie, decides it might be to her benefit to copy cat Batman but loses the cape and gives herself a couple of climbing/cutting claws.
Everyone just said that there would be a Riddler, it did not say he would be trying to compete with the scariness of the Joker or that he'd be the entire focus of the movie. It just said he'd be around. We'd just have the Riddler in play no matter what else may or may not be true.
7) Riddler is supposed to be a bad ass!: Uh.. what?.. When?.. Where?.. You mean post-Lazarus and post-reforment when he has become a twisted and egotistical master detective?.. Okay, I'll give you that. But previous to that?... No matter what continuity you look at, Riddler outside of costume is a geek who can't talk to women (and possibly gets backstabbed by his crush), gets mugged by biker girls, got abused by his father, gets brow-beaten into submission and cheated by a boss... a man who until he snaps and without his mask, without holding all the cards, without every reason to be confident of his position quickly backs-down, flees, and schemes up a new approach to take and may not even have the guts to take it. He is not super evil, he is not a mass-murderer, he is not about intimidation, fear and laughing in one's face cruelly. Ethically he is on the same murkey gray ground as Selina Kyle where you have to figure they are evil because they are pissed off, greedy and lazy rather than enjoying causing harm or destruction. He is not supposed to be a bad-ass and he is not supposed to compete with the Luficerian nature of the Joker.
Now, granted, they could do a scarier Riddler. Afterall, we did not see Joker with a carnival scene, we did not see him ranting about how Gotham was laughing at his "*****" and decreeing he'll show how many "boners" he can create, we didn't see him with a frankenstein hair-cut or a chin the size of a watermelon, he was not permanently bleached white, he did not use Joker green gas that made people laugh themself to death, he did not have killer jack-in-the-boxes or have henchmen that proudly displayed their names on their chests as "Larry", "Curley" and "Moe" or "Tweedle-Dee" and "Tweedle-dumb" or have pet hyenas simply because their bark sounds like laughter, we did not see him followed around by a hyper sexual clown girl for him to abuse... the list could go on.
But if the Riddler isn't in effect a pissed off geek whose simply snapped... then you lose what is really the main essence of the character, to a worse degree than if he never actually asks a riddle. And Mr. Reese in this film does a very good job of playing a geek who one can imagine becoming quite pissed off.
This doesn't mean that they will necessarily follow this storyhook through. Perhaps all this falls into place by accident. Maybe it just seems to fall into place only for those who want it to because of just how genius it would be for the origin of a major villain to have been worked into a seemingly minor storyline that would escape the gaze of any but the careful and calculating observer (and how could any fan of the Riddler be anything other than such?)...
Perhaps they never meant for it to come across as such. Perhaps they were considering it, testing the waters and toying with the idea but will not follow up on this plan because Hollywood is addicted to giving all roles in all major films to the same ridiculously small handful of actors until everyone is sick to death of seeing their faces and delights in their downfall in the pages of the celebrity-obsessed magazines or simply because after testing through they find that Joshua does not, in fact, possess the ability to convincingly turn his squirmy character into a criminal mastermind after a costume change. Perhaps this whole storyline was thrown in their for the sole purpose that IF they chose not to continue the movies THEN they could claim that post Dark Knight that Reese was the Riddler and since they WILL continue to the next movie they will scrap the idea for a new one.
But, you see, one of the biggest problems of now writing the Riddler well into a follow-up movie now that Reese exists is this... if you are going to have the Riddler, in addition to being a pissed off beaten red-headed stepchild geek, the very first OR very last thing you are going to want this character to do within the movie is to find out who Batman is and be unable to tell anyone for a reason other than death or disfigurement...
And if you just had a movie where some other weak-willed red-haired geeky man just figured out who Batman is and could not/cannot tell anyone...
Do... you see how this can create an incredibly LARGE problem to story progression? How exactly do you go from having a character who looks and sounds like the alter ego of your Supervillain having achieved that villain's crowning achievement to creating suspense and a story around that villain achieving that goal?...
It seems easier, if absolutely necessary, to recast the actor and claim that major plastic surgery was part of what the character did in order to create his new identity so that he could be safe from reprisal.
