Batman Returns The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 4

[Kane52630]

http://kane52630.tumblr.com/post/153412071584/youve-got-kind-of-a-dark-side-dont-you-batman

 

[King23DC]

Does "Eagle Scouts turned to crazed clowns" line of dialogue from Penguin ... is that reference to the henchman of the red triangle gang, or the Joker from the previous film? Always interested me.

 

[Wildcard]

I've always wondered the same thing and leaned towards the latter. Would be nice to get a definitive answer on that piece of dialogue, though.

 

[Herofan]

The Penguin is trying to attack the current mayor who wasn't in office in B89 so probably the circus gang.

 

[Elevator Man]

Watchmojo ranked the "Top 10 Best Superhero Movies of the 1990s". BR was ranked at #1. Didn't expect that in a good way. I thought either "The Crow" or "Blade" would've been their #1. Props to them for also including MOTP in the list at #6 instead of as an honorable mention. MOTP tends to be forgotten when compiling these kind of rankings.

Top 10 Best Superhero Movies of the 1990s

Spoiler

[YT]0pfl_VGDcn8[/YT]

 

[jaymes_e06]

Motp?

 

[Slade W]

MOTP is number one IMO.

 

[Elevator Man]

@jaymes_e06

Mask Of The Phantasm

 

[Drizzle]

Not including Mask of the Phantasm and strictly speaking live action films, Batman Returns is kind of the best by default. It's still pretty good, but it wasn't a very solid decade for the genre.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

This and Phantasm are definitely the two best comic book films from the 90's, but I'd be tempted to put Phantasm in first as well.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I just showed BR to my daughter for the first time on Blu-ray recently for the holiday season. I had been holding off with the impression she was not mature enough for it or that it might frighten her. She absolutely loved it, and said it is her third favorite Batman movie of all time! I guess I shouldn't have held off as long as I did.

 

[King23DC]

Have such a love hate relationship with this movie. It's nostalgic and I want to like it. Hell, I want to love it. But over the years it deteriorates.

It has some fantastic imagery. But it's hollow style over substance. Including the half ass excuse that the three antagonist are reflections of the title character. This isn't a Batman movie. This is a Tim Burton movie.

Michelle Pfeiffer gives a dominant performance.

But the rest of them seem to be phoning it in. Particularly Michael Keaton who seems too comfortable in the role. Much too relaxed an apathetic in his scenes. Gone is the intensity. He gave much more effort in the first outing. Where shooting outdoors, and also being more determined to prove people wrong, he was forced to stay up late at night and look weary during the day. For the film and the character it worked better. It was fitting.

The Batman character in Batman Returns seems psychotic and homicidal. Even though he murders in the first one. It's more like inescapable collateral damage for the greater good. In this one he selfishly and sadistically murders without thought. And actually take joy in it throughout the film. He doesn't even make effort to save the Ice Princess. He's actually really unlikable or relatable in this flick.

In the original he avoided death at all costs. Only in certain context when it's inescapable, does it happen. The set design of Gotham in the original is far superior to the claustrophobic and overly Burton centric design and absolutely fake looking closed sets of the sequel.

The emphasis on Burton Goth and freakish characters aren't true to their origins of the source material. And only share vague similarities with the characters from the mythos it's based on.

While visibly darker. And a film without any true heroes. That ends on a depressing note. The film is actually more cartoony and camp here than the original. With no sense of real threat.

Penguin driving a giant duck mobile. Penguin just coming up with the schematics to control the Batmobile. Little penguins that follow orders and have missiles on their backs. And Batman with a giant ice mobile designed specifically to drive in the sewers is all over the top camp akin to the 60's series. Straight up cheese and goofiness.

It's a visibly beautiful movie. Albeit overdesigned and unrealistic. A total goth fantasy that focuses on being a freak rather than a dark, complex and complicated yet tortured hero. It's a depressing experience that I want to enjoy but just can't.

This was Tim Burton saying Eff You to studios, commercialism and the comic book mythos itself.

Just because it's dark doesn't make it Batman.

It's just as ridiculous as the two Schumacher films that followed. Hell, Burton campaigned to have it retitled Batman. Even though it was supposed to be a sequel and continuation.

B89 gets a 4/5, this gets a 2/5. Beyond some stunning visuals, Pfeiffer's performance, and some scenes between Keaton and Michelle ... this film is a HUGE let down following the titanic success its predecessor was.

Too little Batman, and too much Burton. This should've been called Burtonman. As it wasn't the sequel in character, setting, or story to the original 1989 film.

The Batman character being mysterious in the original is interesting and makes sense. Here it's either lazy, or all together lack of interest in the character itself by the script writer and director.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

I believe there is a character arc over the course of the two films where Batman becomes much more prone to killing after killing the Joker. It awoke something even worse within him and with his more experienced status as a crime fighter in the sequel, taking a life is nothing to him now and perhaps the "right" thing to do. Until he sees how destructive that choice is when he sees what it has done to Selina and he realizes that he must change his way of thinking and acting and try to rescue Selina from this as well. Bruce is able to pull himself out of it, but tragically, Selina couldn't.

It was Tim Burton's movie, sure, and he earned it with the successes of the films that came before Batman Returns. It's always more interesting to see a director's personal vision rather than the safe, studio driven approach. A studio puts Prince songs in the movie to appeal to wide audiences and increase profits while a director's unmolested vision gives us the personal touch that often doesn't appeal to every one and this goes for all forms of art. While it may turn off some viewers, at least we get to see a filmmaker work within the boundaries they've made for themselves and see their uncompromised vision. Burton was the Prince of Hollywood at this point in his career and I am grateful that he was allowed to make a Batman movie the way he wanted to and I think it's a pretty good movie, too.

 

[King23DC]

I believe there is a character arc over the course of the two films where Batman becomes much more prone to killing after killing the Joker. It awoke something even worse within him and with his more experienced status as a crime fighter in the sequel, taking a life is nothing to him now and perhaps the "right" thing to do. Until he sees how destructive that choice is when he sees what it has done to Selina and he realizes that he must change his way of thinking and acting and try to rescue Selina from this as well. Bruce is able to pull himself out of it, but tragically, Selina couldn't.

It was Tim Burton's movie, sure, and he earned it with the successes of the films that came before Batman Returns. It's always more interesting to see a director's personal vision rather than the safe, studio driven approach. A studio puts Prince songs in the movie to appeal to wide audiences and increase profits while a director's unmolested vision gives us the personal touch that often doesn't appeal to every one and this goes for all forms of art. While it may turn off some viewers, at least we get to see a filmmaker work within the boundaries they've made for themselves and see their uncompromised vision. Burton was the Prince of Hollywood at this point in his career and I am grateful that he was allowed to make a Batman movie the way he wanted to and I think it's a pretty good movie, too.

Batman doesn't kill the Joker in 89.

No, having artistic vision is great. But you still need to be faithful to the characters you're adapting. Otherwise one shows a flagrant disrespect for the material it's based on. It's a balancing act. Tim needed a Sam Hamm and a studio to ground him. For the greater good of the concept.

Instead Burton molested the story he was adapating.

Having elements of pop or mass appeal doesn't diminish anything either btw. The Prince songs work within context.

Bruce taking moral high ground on Selina after all he did through out the film is down right moronic. And a forced, unearned and contrived "character arc."

He had too much freedom, and at its core Batman Returns isn't respectful to the star of the show. The character the film is supposed to be based on. Instead Burton made Batman about him. And for him. His style became the star of the production.

Decent movie? Sure. Definitely not good or great. Too many flaws. Too much style over substance. Bare bones plot. Good Batman movie? Absolutely not.

 

[Kane52630]

http://kane52630.tumblr.com/post/154423711034/merry-christmas-mr-wayne-batman-returns

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

Well, we disagree on everything it seems, so the last thing I'll say is Merry Christmas, you squealing, wretched puppet pinhead of Gotham.

 

[Herofan]

Have such a love hate relationship with this movie. It's nostalgic and I want to like it. Hell, I want to love it. But over the years it deteriorates.

It has some fantastic imagery. But it's hollow style over substance. Including the half ass excuse that the three antagonist are reflections of the title character. This isn't a Batman movie. This is a Tim Burton movie.

Too little Batman, and too much Burton. This should've been called Burtonman.

I don't see how it's just Burton style rather than the character, how a lot of style is at odds with the character, when Nolan in TDK was clearly influenced by Heat and some of the comics are themselves influenced by movies and movie styles. Or that style is necessarily at odds with substance.

Michelle Pfeiffer gives a dominant performance.

But the rest of them seem to be phoning it in. Particularly Michael Keaton who seems too comfortable in the role. Much too relaxed an apathetic in his scenes. Gone is the intensity.

I thought he did appropriately feel more comfortable as Bruce was still intense enough.

The Batman character in Batman Returns seems psychotic and homicidal. Even though he murders in the first one. It's more like inescapable collateral damage for the greater good. In this one he selfishly and sadistically murders without thought. And actually take joy in it throughout the film. He doesn't even make effort to save the Ice Princess.

I think he did try to save her but he is a bit too sadistic, that went too far.

The set design of Gotham in the original is far superior to the claustrophobic and overly Burton centric design and absolutely fake looking closed sets of the sequel.

I never got the complaints that the city looked too small and claustrophobic.

The emphasis on Burton Goth and freakish characters aren't true to their origins of the source material. And only share vague similarities with the characters from the mythos it's based on.

I admit I'm not a big fan of the Penguin of the comics but I thought the movie version of him and Catwoman (and the movie overall) were pretty true to the characters' basic ideas and themes.

 

[King23DC]

Well, we disagree on everything it seems, so the last thing I'll say is Merry Christmas, you squealing, wretched puppet pinhead of Gotham.

Excellent retort, "just the ***** I've been looking for" ~ Penguin ... thanks for the dialogue disguised insult. Merry Christmas. Good will towards men, and women.

 

[King23DC]

I don't see how it's just Burton style rather than the character, how a lot of style is at odds with the character, when Nolan in TDK was clearly influenced by Heat and some of the comics are themselves influenced by movies and movie styles. Or that style is necessarily at odds with substance.

Nolan brings substance, with his style. Intelligent themes, social commentary, and depth. Quality plot, and character arcs. Not just hollow, pretty imagery.

While also for the surface story being ... gasp ... faithful to the characters and mythos. Unlike Burton's Batman Returns.

Nolan's approach, or visual flair isn't the star of the film. The script, characters, and plot are what we're there for as an audience. We are there to see The Batman. With an interesting dose of an auteur's vision. Not the artistic vision, with a side of Batman.

Which is always the case with 100% unmonitored, Goth Freak, Tim Burton.

I thought he did appropriately feel more comfortable as Bruce was still intense enough.

Keaton himself admitted to being possibly too relaxed in the sequel, filming at home in LA in a studio. No filming all hours of the night like he did at Pinewood's outdoor studio. Which made his performance feel more real, for a vigilante character that stays up all night.

And his over comfort, bleeds into his nearly apathetic performance. The determination, hunger and intensity in his chops wasn't on B89 levels. Which he was competitively trying to prove doubters or critics wrong about his casting. So he brought his A game, for obvious reasons.

I think he did try to save her but he is a bit too sadistic, that went too far.

No he didn't. He said be careful, and don't move.

Then watches her fall to her death. Yet just a scene later is revealed to have a gliding cape. He could've nose dived to save her ala the scene in TDK when Rachel was thrown off the building.

Not to mention all his grappling gun tools.

Good effort, good job Burtonman. Thus the line from Selina "well how come every woman you try to save ends up dead? Or deeply resentful."

You have to come to grips with the fact that the character is flagrantly disrespected in Batman Returns. He isn't heroic, not one bit. And when he finally is towards the end, trying to persuade Selina not to kill Shreck, in all his truncated unearned vague character arc glory ... he comes off moronically hypocritical.

That's not firing guns at armored vehicles to stop a nuclear bomb (TDKR), or firing guns at anti aircraft machine guns (BvS), or firing guns at chemical weapons (B89) attempting to kill the masses, and certainly not leaving a terrorist leader to fend for himself (BB)

Burning a man alive.
Strapping a bomb to a man's waist, to smile and then watch explode.

Is straight up homicidal murder, with psychotic joy, and smiles. That isn't Batman. Collateral damage deaths are fine, in a reality based world. It would happen. Murdering henchman for no good reason is inexcusable.

I never got the complaints that the city looked too small and claustrophobic.

Really?! You disagree with this? Returns looks like it was filmed inside of a Walmart. This giant metropolitan, urban sprawl of a city, that essentially takes place on one small street corner the entire movie?!

The world's smallest Times Square ... and less than a football team's worth of people at the tree lighting ceremonies.

It's all matte paintings. And Goth skull sculptures thanks to Burton. It's visibly much smaller than the huge outdoor Pinewood set, that at least felt it had some sense of scale. Depth. Height. And volume of Gothamite citizens when the Joker attacks.

But of course they both pale in comparison to actually filming on location. Donner's Superman, TDK Trilogy, The Avengers, MOS, BvS, and SS. Nothing beats real world sets. So much more epic in scope, and scale. Not to mention believability. Shooting in the real world is always better. More immersion.

I admit I'm not a big fan of the Penguin of the comics but I thought the movie version of him and Catwoman (and the movie overall) were pretty true to the characters' basic ideas and themes.

They're both not. This wasn't like minor physical alterations in adapting something to the real world, or for big screen believability. The origins, and sense of character are entirely different for both of them.

Penguin is an entirely unique Tim Burton creation all together. A literal bird man (how?!) did Miss Cobblepot get her freak on at the Gotham Zoo one night?

I love Pfeiffer's performance. But the character isn't an out and out skank. She's playful, seductive, and flirtatious. Not lick your entire face, or initiate make out sessions level smut. MShe's a street wise, powerful, cunning, and resourceful woman. Not submissive secretary turned S&M domme, genetic mutated cat girl.

She isn't a literal cat human hybrid. Licked back to life by strays after falling 50 stories, and doesn't die 8 times to live a 9th? The origin is goofy as hell. It only works in context because Michelle carries the movie with her tremendous acting abilities. She brought her A game. And it's stunning.

The rest? It's over the top, goth fairy tale campiness akin to the 60's show. Just much darker visually, and more depressing in tone.

 

[The Joker]

King is correct. In fact DeVito said it was a conscious effort to make Penguin nothing like the comics;

Upon their first meeting, it became apparent that the director wanted a characterisation that bore little or no resemblance to previous Penguins. ''The last thing I wanted to hear from Tim was that we were going to do the Penguin from the comic book or the TV series,'' recalls DeVito.

http://www.angelfire.com/film/batman/movies/returns/cast/penguin.html

 

[Herofan]

Nolan brings substance, with his style. Intelligent themes, social commentary, and depth. Quality plot, and character arcs. Not just hollow, pretty imagery.

There's some social commentary and some of it is intriguing but a lot feels like not having a lot of actual depth. The criminals (actually only one criminal) being more noble than the civilians (but Batman thinking the whole city proved the Joker wrong), Bruce using mass surveillance but truthfully insisting that it'll be just for one time felt like instances of having it both ways.

While also for the surface story being ... gasp ... faithful to the characters and mythos. Unlike Burton's Batman Returns.

It's pretty respectful, even faithful, but not stringently so. Bruce Wayne wanting to quit being Batman one year into his career, partly so he can get with Rachel, is a pretty big deviation. Batman in general seemed like a supporting character, to the Joker and Harvey, in TDK at least as much he did to the villains in BR. In face he considers revealing his identity but Harvey is the one decisive and brave enough to claim it arguably making Harvey more the hero at least in that part of the film.

Keaton himself admitted to being possibly too relaxed in the sequel, filming at home in LA in a studio. No filming all hours of the night like he did at Pinewood's outdoor studio. Which made his performance feel more real, for a vigilante character that stays up all night.

And his over comfort, bleeds into his nearly apathetic performance. The determination, hunger and intensity in his chops wasn't on B89 levels.

I thought his confrontations with Max (you know we have a power surplus, "What's your angle?," Cobblepot was a crime boss) and the Penguin and his general initial suspicion and monitoring of the Penguin were pretty determined and intense, hardly apathetic.

No he didn't. He said be careful, and don't move.

Then watches her fall to her death.

Yet just a scene later is revealed to have a gliding cape.

He did go out and try to reach her but not quickly enough although it's true that with the glider he could have tried harder and used it (although I'm not sure if with it he would have glided very quickly). The film does have some bad inconsistencies.

And when he finally is towards the end, trying to persuade Selina not to kill Shreck, in all his truncated unearned vague character arc glory ... he comes off moronically hypocritical.

Yeah, that is too inconsistent. The flamebreather scene seemed to be not very harmful to the flamebreather within the fantasy and even somewhat cartoony world of the film but the bomb scene was a sadistic kill.

Really?! You disagree with this? Returns looks like it was filmed inside of a Walmart. This giant metropolitan, urban sprawl of a city, that essentially takes place on one small street corner the entire movie?!

It felt like it wasn't small and had enough scale to me even in the square and especially, more impressive and fun, with the backgrounds in the rooftop fights between Batman and Catwoman.

They're both not. This wasn't like minor physical alterations in adapting something to the real world, or for big screen believability.

It's over the top, goth fairy tale campiness akin to the 60's show.

It's true that the movie generally really, really doesn't try to have realism, it embraces a dark fantasy/fairy tale tone and has some absurd elements but that doesn't make it either dumb in itself or mocking of the characters (it does mock Gordon and GCPD as incompetent which is unfortunate but also frankly entertaining; also a theme in the comics is that some institutions, at least or especially Arkham, are incompetent).

The origins, and sense of character are entirely different for both of them.

Penguin is an entirely unique Tim Burton creation all together. A literal bird man (how?!) did Miss Cobblepot get her freak on at the Gotham Zoo one night?

There is no explanation or reason for why or how, just a freak of nature and/or fairy tale occurrence. You do have to suspend disbelief but not much more than that going through chemicals would turn a person's skin white or the more fantastical Batman villains like Poison Ivy or Killer Croc or Man-Bat or Ra's with the Lazarus Pits or maybe even Scarface/the Ventriloquist.
The movie character is so different he's an original character inspired by the comic book character as much or more than an adaptation of the comic book character. But I think he still has some of the main ideas and themes of the character.
I haven't read a lot of Penguin stories but from what I have and the West series and TAS some of his key concepts are that he's a mix of ugly and retro-good looks (so retro they're also kind of ugly), is from upper society but is appalled and indignant that society especially upper society doesn't accept him and, although this varies more, he's sometimes awkward and crude in his behavior as well as his appearance and I think those ideas were adapted ...

I love Pfeiffer's performance. But the character isn't an out and out skank. She's playful, seductive, and flirtatious. Not lick your entire face, or initiate make out sessions level smut. MShe's a street wise, powerful, cunning, and resourceful woman. Not submissive secretary turned S&M domme, genetic mutated cat girl.

She isn't a literal cat human hybrid. Licked back to life by strays after falling 50 stories, and doesn't die 8 times to live a 9th? The origin is goofy as hell.

Catwoman, on the other hand, seems like a not-that-different adaptation of the comic book character.
Some specifics from her comic book origins (different ones) were that she was being mistreated by a man (although her husband rather than her boss) and got her start in crime by trying to get revenge on him and that she survived a plane crash fall (leading to amnesia and an altered personality) and that she modeled herself as a cat and took on the costumed identity in response to/inspired by Batman. The character's broader key concepts are that she considers society unjust and repressive and thinks she has a right to disrupt and undermine it and those were present.
The film character isn't a hybrid, although she probably does have supernatural cat powers (which the comic book character doesn't but the other villains I mentioned are fantastical), but the comic book character also isn't just, like in TDKR, a thief who happens to wear black. I don't see how licking Batman's face is "skankier" than kissing him as she has done in the comics and later TAS.

 

[Elevator Man]

I love Pfeiffer's performance. But the character isn't an out and out skank. She's playful, seductive, and flirtatious. Not lick your entire face, or initiate make out sessions level smut. MShe's a street wise, powerful, cunning, and resourceful woman. Not submissive secretary turned S&M domme, genetic mutated cat girl.

She isn't a literal cat human hybrid. Licked back to life by strays after falling 50 stories, and doesn't die 8 times to live a 9th? The origin is goofy as hell. It only works in context because Michelle carries the movie with her tremendous acting abilities. She brought her A game. And it's stunning.

The awnings that Selina was falling through lessened the impact of the fall, which in real life a person would've been splattered all over the pavement from a fall like that. But this is a fantasy cbm. The alley cats didn't "lick her back to life". They were waking her up by biting on her fingers. The fall gave Selina a bad head injury making her mentally unstable, where she believed she was a cat and also had nine lives. Noticed that most of the movie when she survives death it had to do with luck (particularly the fall into the dump truck with kitty litter and the fall into the glass house) but in her fractured mind she lost another one of her nine life.

Before post production Catwoman was originally killed off after kissing Shreck with a taser between both their lips, while also grabbing ahold of an exposed power cable. However a few weeks or days before the film's release date Burton wanted to leave her fate somewhat ambiguous at the end by having Catwoman lurking over Gotham and the bat signal. The ending is the only instance of where Catwoman seems superhuman, imo. B/c she survived being electrocuted (while Shreck's corpse was fried) and shot multiple times.

Even though I liked Pfeiffer and Burton's interpretation I agree with you that their Catwoman isn't a very faithful adaptation of the character, but I don't agree that she was a "genetic mutated cat girl".

 

[King23DC]

Oh come on. Awnings wouldn't save you falling through that many at that height. Even hitting one of them would surely break bones.

It boils down to this ... Batman Returns is a divider.

If you like it, you're a fan of Tim Burton. If you don't, you're actually a fan of Batman.

 

[Kane52630]

If you like it, you're a fan of Tim Burton. If you don't, you're actually a fan of Batman.

Ahh... you can smell the elitism in this post.

 

[titansupes]

I'm a fan of Batman. I'm not a fan of Tim Burton... Outside of his Batman movies.