The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - - Part 11

[Godzillasaurus]

There's lots of love for it. Just because the train fight is the fan favorite doesn't mean that fight, or other fight scenes in the trilogy are not loved, too.

Well I hardly hear any appreciation for it, for the record.

Nobody ever seems to acknowledge it

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

I think the train sequence is still the greatest action piece of any CBM. The movie itself is still pretty great a decade later, although no longer in my personal top 5. That being said, I don't think it's even remotely close to being the definitive Spidey film. I've gone on ad nauseam why I don't think it is and many of my critiques about the film a decade ago are proving true today, in particular how the films are viewed in a broader context. To keep it short, I'm not the biggest fan of Raimi 's approach to the material.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

You're missing loads. For a start you're missing the strong emotional core to it that makes it such an appealing tale. Spider-Man 2 is a story of a hero's growth, and the burden of being that hero. After 2 years of being Spider-Man it's taken this negative toll on Peter's life in just about every area. He's got a strained friendship with Harry, he keeps missing MJ's plays and thus is isolating himself from her life, he can't hold down a job, he is failing college, and he can't help Aunt May with her financial troubles.

Finally Peter reaches a breaking point where it's affecting him so badly it's making his powers fail. Like when someone is so psychologically stressed it makes them ill. He can take it no more, and after a powerful confrontation with Uncle Ben in his mind, he throws in the towel. It's the very essence of the conflicted character that is Peter Parker and his emotional turmoil with dealing with his superhero life;

Tobey Maguire was a power house in this one. Able to depict all the conflict, drama, and emotional turmoil that makes Spider-Man such a compelling character. There's so many great scenes he got to sink his teeth into. From confessing to Aunt May about his part in Uncle Ben's death, to re-enacting the famous Spider-Man no more scene. All the great character scenes he got to do. From the big ones like confronting Harry after being unmasked by him, to the more somber ones like his "web chat" with MJ after he's saved her from Ock's sinking lair.

Then we have the villain, Doc Ock, superbly played by Alfred Molina. Apart from being a visually magnificent villain, menacing, and ruthlessly brilliant, he also presents a brilliant parallel with Peter and his conflict in the movie. Peter is being irresponsible by giving up being Spider-Man so he can lead his dream of a normal life. Ock is being irresponsible by doing evil things to make his fusion dream succeed. By the end they both come full circle and accept responsibility. There's great chemistry between Maguire and Molina as two sides of the same coin being mirror images of each other.
Molina brings all the menace and nuance to the character. In one scene he's bonding with Peter over the mechanics of Fusion, and then in another he's threatening to peel the flesh off MJ's bones. He gets all the little Doc Ock-isms down to a tee. From lighting cigars with his tentacles, to flashing menacing little smiles when he's about to do something wicked like abduct MJ or smash a bunch of do-gooding citizens out of his way, to the dry villainous humor ("Butterfingers"). By far the best villain of the Spider-Man movies.

The supporting cast is top notch, and all serve as vital cogs in Peter's journey.

Aunt May is at her best in this one. The scene where she gives Peter the $20 on his birthday and then breaks down crying about how much she misses Ben is so powerful. Gives me goosebumps every time. She's not shown as helpless old lady. In spite of her being taken hostage by Doc Ock, she ends up helping saving Spidey's life when she smacks Ock in the face with her umbrella just when he's about to stab Spider-Man with his tentacle blade.
She's shown as an emotionally strong and capable woman. She doesn't fold up like a lawn chair when she loses her home. She has arranged an apartment for herself, and has her house all packed up and ready to move. Of course we have the big one, where Peter tells her the terrible secret he's been holding on his conscience for 2 years; his part in Uncle Ben's death. But May still forgives him, commends him for his honesty, and tells him how much she loves him. This is the perfect depiction of the Peter/Aunt May relationship.

Franco is on fire as Harry in this. From the get-go you can see him trying to live up to his father's legacy, still trying to impress him even in death. "Octavius is going to put Oscorp on the map like my father never dreamed". Harry's downward spiral in the movie is exceptionally well handled. Watching him go from cocky businessman with delusions of grandeur, to broken drunken failure, to angry bitter friend who publicly slaps and verbally humiliates Peter in public, to making a dangerous deal with Doc Ock to get Spider-Man, to finally losing his last grip on sanity and hallucinating his father telling him to kill Peter and then finding the Goblin lair. It was the perfect handling of Harry's journey into becoming the Goblin.

Mary Jane is shown to have grown a lot since Spider-Man 1. She's reached her dream of being a successful actress on Broadway. She's independent. She's a star. But she has not forgotten her friends and family. Where she came from. The rift between her and Peter is well done, as she clearly yearns for him to be there for her, see her Broadway play she worked so hard to get to. Like Aunt May, MJ has a bit of spunk and toughness to her, and doesn't just come across as the helpless damsel. She gives Ock verbal guff, and even tries to smack him with a plank of wood when he's got Spidey captured. The only flaw to her character was her seeing John and trying to get with Peter at the same time. If John was not the one she really wanted then she should have ended it sooner. I understand the point of it was MJ was settling for the safe choice, rather than the one she really wanted. But it's not fair on John to be used like that. But in spite of that, when she finally chose the right guy, I think we all still cheered at the end when we got "Go get 'em tiger".

Jonah Jameson....what can be said about him that has not been said before. J.K. Simmons is PERFECT in the role. And he has his biggest role yet in this one. He's a side splitting scene stealer, and even gets to venture out of the Bugle offices a couple of times during the course of the movie. Watching the TASM movies, seeing Jameson's absence in them, it makes you realize just how much life the character of Jonah brings to a Spidey story.

I mean I think if you've seen the movie then it's kind of self explanatory why Spider-Man 2 is so great, because I really believe the movie's brilliance speaks for itself. And I haven't even mentioned the mind blowing action scenes that look like a comic book come to life. In fact I'd say still the best action scenes of any CBM. No wonder Spider-Man 2 won an Oscar for the special fx.

So I hope that gives you some idea of why people see it as the best.



No, just pity you because your video doesn't work

Spider-man 2 is one of the greatest superhero films ever made, plain and simple. It always will be.

Agreed. Spider-Man 2 is ones of best and my favourite of all superhero movies.

Well I hardly hear any appreciation for it, for the record.

Nobody ever seems to acknowledge it

I acknowledge it. That fight is so good and brutal. Just not best of all Spidey fights.

I think the train sequence is still the greatest action piece of any CBM. The movie itself is still pretty great a decade later, although no longer in my personal top 5. That being said, I don't think it's even remotely close to being the definitive Spidey film. I've gone on ad nauseam why I don't think it is and many of my critiques about the film a decade ago are proving true today, in particular how the films are viewed in a broader context. To keep it short, I'm not the biggest fan of Raimi 's approach to the material.

Film is still viewed as one of best superhero movies. Marvel president Kevin Fiege also say the same thing. He say that the next Spider-Man movie have to live up to Spider-Man 2 because it one of the best.

It my definitive Spidey film and my number 1 comic movie.

 

[The Joker]

Well I hardly hear any appreciation for it, for the record.

Nobody ever seems to acknowledge it

Then you haven't been reading in the right places.

Film is still viewed as one of best superhero movies. Marvel president Kevin Fiege also say the same thing. He say that the next Spider-Man movie have to live up to Spider-Man 2 because it one of the best.

The chap who created Game of Thrones also just recently said he thinks it's the best Marvel based movie;

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/george-rr-martin-is-tired-810569?facebook_20150722

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

The chap who created Game of Thrones also just recently said he thinks it's the best Marvel based movie;

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/george-rr-martin-is-tired-810569?facebook_20150722

Film is still viewed as one of best superhero movies. Marvel president Kevin Fiege also say the same thing. He say that the next Spider-Man movie have to live up to Spider-Man 2 because it one of the best.

Yeah? I never argued it's critical acclaim.

Feige and Martin's artistic judgment of SM2 has little influence on my aesthetic values. I'm open-minded to other people's perspectives and have often had my mind changed, but in this case I've heard every argument under the sun (pro and con) so I'm unwavering in my opinions. I really like the film and it's definitely in my top 10, but my personal tastes/aesthetic values often clash with Raimi's creative choices, which stops me from unconditionally loving this film like others do. As much as I've tried to view this film through different lenses, I've never been able to come to terms with that. So Feige using SM2 as a standard, or G.R.R Martin stating it's his favorite film does little for me at this point. It may as well be an opposing political view.

 

[ThePhantasm]

This is the Raimi Appreciation thread. Some of you seem to think you're in this thread.

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

This is the Raimi Appreciation thread. Some of you seem to think you're in this thread.

What thread?

 

[ThePhantasm]

The one I linked to?

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

The one I linked to?

Oh, the thread where people who often post in here defend the film in there.

 

[ThePhantasm]

yeah, the thread titled as a question which invites disagreement, rather than the thread dedicated specifically to appreciation

that one

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

As far as I can tell, your the only one who has a problem with the discussion going on the last couple of pages.

 

[ThePhantasm]

funnily enough, I wasn't even referring to you

assumptions, assumptions

people can post whatever they like, I don't particularly care, I just find it amusing when people enter an appreciation thread to rant about the things that they don't like about a film

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

funnily enough, I wasn't even referring to you

assumptions, assumptions

people can post whatever they like, I don't particularly care, I just find it amusing when people enter an appreciation thread to rant about the things that they don't like about a film

You got me, I did assume that I was included in the some you were referring to...

I was interested in the conversation and debates going on, sorry if your amused...

 

[ThePhantasm]

God bless you! God bless everyone in your life!

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

God bless you! God bless everyone in your life!

Me and Batsfan1 wish the same to you and yours!

 

[Batsfan1]

No he doesn't. He asks her does she want to go get something to eat. That's when MJ is like "I'm getting married, Peter. You're too late" as if going to get some chow mein means they're dating.

That's asking her out. And she knows it, that's why responds with "I'm getting married, Peter."

God bless you! God bless everyone in your life!

 

[ThePhantasm]

Yeah he's def asking her out.

 

[The Joker]

That's asking her out. And she knows it, that's why responds with "I'm getting married, Peter."

No, it's not. If asking your friend to go get something to eat is asking them out, then I've asked every single one of my friends, males included, for a date. How bizarre that none of them ever saw it as that. The difference is MJ just knew that Peter wants them to be together, so she cut him to the chase. But he did not ask her out by simply asking if she wanted to go get some chow mein. That's ridiculous.

Like when he asked her if she wanted to go get a cheese burger in SM-1. That's not construed as asking her out either, nor did she see it as that and rightfully, too. I mean what planet do you live on where a friend inviting you to grab a bite to eat is a date invitation.

 

[Batsfan1]

No, it's not. If asking your friend to go get something to eat is asking them out, then I've asked every single one of my friends, males included, for a date. How bizarre that none of them ever saw it as that. The difference is MJ just knew that Peter wants them to be together, so she cut him to the chase. But he did not ask her out by simply asking if she wanted to go get some chow mein. That's ridiculous.

Like when he asked her if she wanted to go get a cheese burger in SM-1. That's not construed as asking her out either, nor did she see it as that and rightfully, too. I mean what planet do you live on where a friend inviting you to grab a bite to eat is a date invitation.

It's not about the surface question. Peter is asking her to get something to eat, because he's romantically interested in her. He's asking her out, not specifically, but subtextually. In the first movie that exchange was more friendly, without the context of their feelings. Mary-Jane knows that when Peter asks her in the second movie that he's asking her out. Before it was a friendly offer, now it's trying to date.

God bless you! God bless everyone in your life!

 

[The Joker]

It's not about the surface question. Peter is asking her to get something to eat, because he's romantically interested in her. He's asking her out, not specifically, but subtextually. In the first movie that exchange was more friendly, without the context of their feelings. Mary-Jane knows that when Peter asks her in the second movie that he's asking her out. Before it was a friendly offer, now it's trying to date.

God bless you! God bless everyone in your life!

Yes it is totally about the surface question. Just because Peter is romantically interested in her doesn't mean asking her to go get something to eat is asking her out for a date. They are still best friends, and have been for the last 2 years regardless of what romantic feelings they have for each other.

Peter's underlying wish that they will get together is no different to it being there in SM-1 when he asks her to go get a cheeseburger with him. That wasn't an invitation to go on a date either. The only difference in 2 is MJ is aware of his feelings for her, whereas in 1 she wasn't. Hence why she doesn't say "Peter, I'm dating Harry" when he asked her that in 1, because asking a friend to get food with you is not a romantic invitation. Nor should it be seen as one.

So your assertion that he was asking her out in 2 is flat out wrong.

 

[Godzillasaurus]

No, it's not. If asking your friend to go get something to eat is asking them out, then I've asked every single one of my friends, males included, for a date. How bizarre that none of them ever saw it as that. The difference is MJ just knew that Peter wants them to be together, so she cut him to the chase. But he did not ask her out by simply asking if she wanted to go get some chow mein. That's ridiculous.

Like when he asked her if she wanted to go get a cheese burger in SM-1. That's not construed as asking her out either, nor did she see it as that and rightfully, too. I mean what planet do you live on where a friend inviting you to grab a bite to eat is a date invitation.

To pretty much every young female, Earth. Hell, many girls automatically believe that if accidental eye contact is initiated with a guy, that means he likes her.

 

[The Joker]

To pretty much every young female, Earth. Hell, many girls automatically believe that if accidental eye contact is initiated with a guy, that means he likes her.

The only girls who fit an embarrassing description like that are the immature ones aged 15 and under, or with the IQ of the same number.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Yeah? I never argued it's critical acclaim.

Feige and Martin's artistic judgment of SM2 has little influence on my aesthetic values. I'm open-minded to other people's perspectives and have often had my mind changed, but in this case I've heard every argument under the sun (pro and con) so I'm unwavering in my opinions. I really like the film and it's definitely in my top 10, but my personal tastes/aesthetic values often clash with Raimi's creative choices, which stops me from unconditionally loving this film like others do. As much as I've tried to view this film through different lenses, I've never been able to come to terms with that. So Feige using SM2 as a standard, or G.R.R Martin stating it's his favorite film does little for me at this point. It may as well be an opposing political view.

I not tell you that to change your opinion, I say it because you say what you said years ago is being proven today. But I don't think so because Spider-Man 2 still talked of as one of best of superhero movies even by important people like Kevin Fiege.

Yes it is about the surface question. Just because Peter is romantically interested in her doesn't mean asking her to go get something to eat is asking her out for a date. They are still best friends, and have been for the last 2 years regardless of what feelings they have for each other.

Peter's underlying wish that they will get together is no different to it being there in SM-1 when he asks her to go get a cheeseburger with him. The only difference in 2 is MJ is aware of his feelings for her, whereas in 1 she wasn't. Hence why she doesn't say "Peter, I'm dating Harry" when he asked her that, because asking a friend to get food with you is not a romantic invitation.

So your assertion that he was asking her out in 2 is factually wrong.

Agreed. I am going to cinema and then KFC with lady friend next week but we are not seeing it as date lol. We just good friends. We do things like that all time. Everyone who has girls as friends does.

To pretty much every young female, Earth. Hell, many girls automatically believe that if accidental eye contact is initiated with a guy, that means he likes her.

Disagreed. lol all young females not act that way. How many females you know? They must be ten years old lol.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

To pretty much every young female, Earth. Hell, many girls automatically believe that if accidental eye contact is initiated with a guy, that means he likes her.

How many females have you interacted with?

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

I not tell you that to change your opinion, I say it because you say what you said years ago is being proven today. But I don't think so because Spider-Man 2 still talked of as one of best of superhero movies even by important people like Kevin Fiege.

What I was talking about was the fans/general public's perception of the film as the years have gone on. I think of all the CBM's that have been deemed "great" by critics and scholars, SM2 is BY FAR the most polarizing and has the widest range of opinions regarding it. I find it's often a LOVE/HATE dynamic. Much of this I believe (and predicted) has to do with Raimi's style and the creative choices he made with these films.