The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Part 8

[Dragon]

I'm not saying it makes her look good or anything. She's still being selfish and self centered using John as a security blanket to fill a void in her life. I mean it at least goes a longer way to her at least explaining that it's an insecurity and safety factor with John.

In the regular cut she doesn't offer any explanation. She comes off worse offering no insight or justification on her behalf why she's with him.

Yeah, she does explain it. But she (And for that matter Sam Raimi) don't ever seem to get that she's wrong for the way she feels. It's supposed to be enough that in the end she decides to be with Peter, which as we learn in 3 is not enough at all.

I love the Raimi films. But honestly I don't think character is ever fully realized in any of the Spidey films or for that matter ANY comic book film. It's like in the best of these films characters are stripped to the bare minimum to make them palatable to the audience. And in the worst cases characters are are these incomplete abstract structures that zigzag in every which way.

The action scenes are nice, and the MJ scene is worth a watch. But the rest is meh. The regular cut is much better overall.

Like I said, I was really only referring to the action scenes. I like the additions to the bank and train fights and wish they were in the original, although the original wasn't per se lacking without them. It's like taking a beautiful woman and giving her some additional accents.

 

[Human Torch]

I prefer 2.1 to the theatrical.The only scene I don't think is needed (Jonah in the suit notwithstanding) is MJ's girlfriend.We didn't need another rousing monologue in a film already brimming with them.(and from a background character,yet!)

 

[NCBIII]

I think the additions to the fight scenes in 2.1 are a bit ridiculous. Spidey webbing Ock as he flies out the apartment window hardly makes sense even for superhero movie physics. And the extended train fight is cool...up until Spider-Man gets hit dead-on by a train going in the opposite direction, and is totally fine. I mean, Spidey takes some unrealistic beatings in the Raimi movies and receives minimal damage, but getting hit dead-on by a train going in the opposite direction while he's on a train traveling full speed? I can't digest that.

@Dragon: I agree with most of your points about Spider-Man 3, except for the symbiote having the ability to read other people's minds upon physical contact. If I were to accept that this were the case, it would beg the question why Peter isn't aware of Penny after fighting Sandman in the subway. And, if he did realize this after fighting Sandman with the symbiote, why Peter didn't feel more guilty about supposedly killing Sandman, or at least being to doubt his own actions. In the film Peter believes Flint Marko is a bad person, period. If he found out about Penny earlier things wouldn't be so black-and-white for him, and there is no evidence of this before Sandman's closing monologue. If there were SOME acknowledgment of Peter knowing about Penny after the subway fight, then your idea would have more support.

My point being, if I were to assume the symbiote has this ability you're thinking it does, I would believe the film does a horrible job of showing it. I have to agree with Anno on this particular point. I think you're reading a bit too much into Venom's dialogue. I think his dialogue is just a way to conveniently move the story along faster. If I were to assume anything at all, it would be that Venom did some snooping on Flint at some point between his birth and the alleyway meeting.

 

[Dragon]

I think the additions to the fight scenes in 2.1 are a bit ridiculous. Spidey webbing Ock as he flies out the apartment window hardly makes sense even for superhero movie physics. And the extended train fight is cool...up until Spider-Man gets hit dead-on by a train going in the opposite direction, and is totally fine. I mean, Spidey takes some unrealistic beatings in the Raimi movies and receives minimal damage, but getting hit dead-on by a train going in the opposite direction while he's on a train traveling full speed? I can't digest that.

@Dragon: I agree with most of your points about Spider-Man 3, except for the symbiote having the ability to read other people's minds upon physical contact. If I were to accept that this were the case, it would beg the question why Peter isn't aware of Penny after fighting Sandman in the subway. And, if he did realize this after fighting Sandman with the symbiote, why Peter didn't feel more guilty about supposedly killing Sandman, or at least being to doubt his own actions. In the film Peter believes Flint Marko is a bad person, period. If he found out about Penny earlier things wouldn't be so black-and-white for him, and there is no evidence of this before Sandman's closing monologue.

My point being, if I were to assume the symbiote has this ability you're thinking it does, I would believe the film does a horrible job of showing it. I have to agree with Anno on this particular point. I think you're reading a bit too much into Venom's dialogue. I think his dialogue is just a way to conveniently move the story along faster. If I were to assume anything at all, it would be that Venom did some snooping on Flint at some point between his birth and the alleyway meeting.

I understand what you're saying- but let's remember that Peter never used the symbiote to it fullest potential. When Venom was introduced there were a number of powers that he exhibited that Peter didn't know existed.
And also that the symbiote is driven by the emotional rage that the host has. That Eddie is much further gone than Peter might have even charged the symbiote and opened up new power resources that would not have come from Peter. The very fact that Eddie, who has no superhuman powers was able to exhibit power equal too or even surpassing Peter's natural abilities says the symbiote is kicking into overdrive when Eddie joins with it.

And- it's also possible that Peter did make a psychic connection with Marko. But just as he ignored that he could've killed his best friend or hurt MJ, Peter could certainly ignore Marko's troubles when fueled by the rage of Marko having taken Ben from him.

The idea that Eddie researched Marko's history is pretty far-fetched I think given that he was charged-up about his new powers and having a vessel by which to kill Peter. On youtube there's a test scene that shows Venom trying his new powers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNCB9wZP8k8

Eddie would've been caught up in that (And had that been completed it might have worked in the final cut.) And, if we assume that Eddie only knows what the symbiote learned from Peter, then he would believe that Marko was dead.

 

[NCBIII]

That's true. And your argument could also account for the fact that even after fighting Harry in the penthouse he doesn't learn how Harry blackmailed Mary-Jane to hurt him. The thing about the SM3 symbiote, for me at least, is that it was so poorly explained that it is absolutely open to interpretation. I can't tell you you're wrong because there is so little information given about it.

I won't beat this argument on the head, so I'll conclude by saying I'll agree to disagree. I personally think it was nothing more than a slip-up on the writers' part, but I won't say you're wrong because people can make many reasonable assumptions and speculations about the SM3 symbiote.

Finally, that video was pretty cool! Thanks for sharing it.

 

[webhead731]

That Venom video is awesome. He truly looked great. It is a shame we didn't see more of him.

 

[Anno_Domini]

I'm done arguing with the topic of S-M 3, lol. I'll just leave it as still saying, the deleted scenes would've made the film much, much better

 

[SpideyVille]

I'm done arguing with the topic of S-M 3, lol. I'll just leave it as still saying, the deleted scenes would've made the film much, much better

With a film that bad, how could you possibly make it worse?

 

[A Necessary Evil]

 

[Dragon]

I'm done arguing with the topic of S-M 3, lol.

A sign of the coming Apocalypse. Is that the four horsemen I see?

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Yeah, she does explain it. But she (And for that matter Sam Raimi) don't ever seem to get that she's wrong for the way she feels. It's supposed to be enough that in the end she decides to be with Peter, which as we learn in 3 is not enough at all.

I thought it was implicit that it was 'wrong' (which she realizes at the end). The scene served to alleviate our fears that she has her own justification of her deeds and is not a mild sociopath who hops from dude to dude. It thus humanized her a little bit.

 

[Anno_Domini]

A sign of the coming Apocalypse. Is that the four horsemen I see?

I believe it's Famine.

 

[roach]

I believe it's Famine.

Pestilence

 

[Anno_Domini]

I was gonna say Pestilence, but I didn't want to get on any religious folks' bad side because Pestilence and Conquest are always switched around, lol. So I stuck with Famine.

 

[SpideyVille]

I thought it was implicit that it was 'wrong' (which she realizes at the end). The scene served to alleviate our fears that she has her own justification of her deeds and is not a mild sociopath who hops from dude to dude. It thus humanized her a little bit.

The way I always looked at the end of SM2 is that is was like The Graduate, where the bride to be runs off to be with the "True Love," but after the initial moment of thinking it will be the happily ever after ending, reality starts to creep in and the thought of "Now what?" starts to take effect. And I'm glad that they decided to touch upon that in SM3.

But the more I think about, the more I feel like the character of MJ was just written poorly throughout the entire franchise. Just in all of her intentions and behavior, it almost feels like she was meant to come off as bad.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Pretty much, yeah..she was at her best in SM1, but still kinda sucked.

 

[Dragon]

I thought it was implicit that it was 'wrong' (which she realizes at the end). The scene served to alleviate our fears that she has her own justification of her deeds and is not a mild sociopath who hops from dude to dude. It thus humanized her a little bit.

The way I always looked at the end of SM2 is that is was like The Graduate, where the bride to be runs off to be with the "True Love," but after the initial moment of thinking it will be the happily ever after ending, reality starts to creep in and the thought of "Now what?" starts to take effect. And I'm glad that they decided to touch upon that in SM3.

But the more I think about, the more I feel like the character of MJ was just written poorly throughout the entire franchise. Just in all of her intentions and behavior, it almost feels like she was meant to come off as bad.

Coincidentally FX ran Spidey 2 & 3 today.

The thing is that there was so much stressing of the lessons Peter had to learn throughout the series. So it boggles my mind how out and out selfish self-centered and insecure MJ is presented as being with her never being taken to task for it. She gets pissed off at Peter for saving Gwen's life.

 

[SpideyVille]

Coincidentally FX ran Spidey 2 & 3 today.

The thing is that there was so much stressing of the lessons Peter had to learn throughout the series. So it boggles my mind how out and out selfish self-centered and insecure MJ is presented as being with her never being taken to task for it. She gets pissed off at Peter for saving Gwen's life.

The oe line that still bothers me is in SM3, when she tells Peter "I just want you to understand how I feel". I hate that line because it just seemed like lazy writing, where the writers are trying to tell us outright that she doesn't feel like Peter understand her, which is really dumb because I'd say Peter did know how it felt to not be accepted or appreciated, both as Spidey and as himself. Its almost like she wanted him to fondle her just because of some bad reviews.

And I've also said this before in this thread, but MJ definitely came off as someone with daddy issues. We see it in the first one, and as soon as Flash broke up with her, she ran into Harry's arms because he was the first to see the opportunity. And their relationship seemed more awkward than Gwen and Eddie. But then as soon as Peter pays some attention to her, she falls for him, while she is thinking about things with Harry. Then in SM2, she's trying to get Peter to admit his love for her while she still has the cushion of John to fall on, and the only thing that made her reconsider is that she finally knew why Peter couldn't be with her. Yet once again, when things get rough with Peter in SM3, she runs to Harry.

Like I said before, the more I look at her character, the more I feel like she was written poorly and just comes off bad. It almost makes me wonder why Peter was in love with her aside from the cliche of her being the girl next door and object of his desire from a young age. Its sweet as first, but by the time you get to the last movi, you hvae to wonder if these two are even meant to be with each other in the same way that you would think any other iconic couple is meant to be with each other.

 

[Human Torch]

I'm done arguing with the topic of S-M 3, lol.

 

[Venom75]

I caught Spider-man 3 on FX today,and followed that with Fantastic 4:Rise of the Silver Surfer. I found Alba's Sue Storm just as whiney and self important as Dunst's Mary Jane.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Ugh, I just skipped that abomination of a movie. Hopefully the reboot is good. Lol

 

[The Joker]

She gets pissed off at Peter for saving Gwen's life.

But she had her polished fingernails all over Peter. The biotch!

 

[SpideyVille]

But she had her polished fingernails all over Peter. The biotch!

 

[Dragon]

But she had her polished fingernails all over Peter. The biotch!

Before saving someone's life, Peter has to weigh whether it'll threaten MJ's self-esteem.

 

[SpideyVille]

To be fair, wasn't the polished finger nail thing about her kissing Peter upside-down? I mean, as bad as MJ looked in the films, at least she was justified in being mad at Peter in that.