The Official Punisher by Rick Remender / Punisher MAX thread

[StreetWarrior]

Respect to you sir ! When Frank was in the white house ? Yea ?

Did you have to look it up ?

Or did you remember ? Please be honest broski....

I remembered, but the hardcover is sitting on my shelf like 6 feet away. So, I double-checked the issue number just to be sure. I didn't want to give any false information.

 

[ObakeTora]

Frank was in the White House because G.W was the main guy who sent the Russian after him.

 

[cthulhu]

So that would be issue 5 of Ennis' second knights run for the white house scene - good to see your still on the boards ObakeTora what you think of the whole frankencastle thing?

 

[cthulhu]

And as a bonus - a new DnA series with the Punisher... always enjoyed their old Punisher work so great to see them back on the character! http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=28416
Hopefully as good as or better than Dixon's Marvel Knights series

 

[ObakeTora]

So that would be issue 5 of Ennis' second knights run for the white house scene - good to see your still on the boards ObakeTora what you think of the whole frankencastle thing?

Spoiler

The only good thing that came of that mess was Frank tossing Daken around like a rag doll. Other than that I think Remender seriously needs to stop smoking crack before writing. Well on a good note, I hate Rick considerably less than Fractionofaninch. I mean, he did get Frank to take the Bloodstone thus eliminating the need to retcon his background to explain his age. I would like to see Frank keep the bloodstone as Frank seems to be going the way of the X-men villain the Xcutioner by collecting all of these high powered weapons to take on supercriminals. Sadly, I think it's going back to Ulysses daughter Elsa.

The last few stories were really stupid and predictable, we know Frank won't kill Daken so why put Daken second on a revenge list? It seems if you were going to keep him alive youd make him last on the list after only a dozen or so super criminals were offed.


There is so much more you can do with a Frank who exists in a world of Sorceror Supremes, Cosmic cubes, and power cosmic, why just limit him to this Frankenkrepla? Hey, if I had the job to write Frank I wouldnt just have him appear out of nowhere to just off Osbourne. No, Frank would know he is no match against guys like Sentry and would have set up some sort of counter measure to keep Sentry or any other super powered body guard off his back.

If I was Frank and wanted to dump on capes, first thing I'd do is I'd find the power broker, get that 10 ton super soldier serum, hang out in Hells Kitchen and beat the crap out of Daredevil for daily practice. Every issue would showcase Frank obtaining some new power and going back to Hells Kitchen to lay the smack down on Daredevil.

I can dream right?

 

[Shockdingo]

What I'd do with Frank is build him up from before Franken Castle; I love the new soldier of the future thing with him levelling the playing field with hi-tech weaponry. I'd start there and move up. I'd first get him involved with new villains that fit this new style (maybe cyborgs, techcults, new and improved super powered mobsters mercs drugrunners, something) and have him wage war with them and the occasional MU villain. With this direction, you could have some disposable enemies, and some that could come back for more punishment. People often say that Frank is useless in the MU since he can't kill off Dr. Doom, well I think, a clever writer can balance out his low level adventures with some sci-fi ones.

For me, the whole Frankencastle thing was defended by saying "Oh, well he's in the Marvel Universe, so it works" I disagree, I think sci-fi elements with Frank can work fantastically. After all, as Dread said a while back, Frank is a bit like Brock Samson; the brutally efficient, realistic guy in a den of madness. Have something that works towards his character. Having him deal with cyborgs and genetic merc anomalies works better than a sudden thrust into the supernatural. Just because the MU has mystics stuff, it doesn't mean every character is compatible with it. It all about outside the box thinking with proper planning and care to respect and follow the character's particular themes.

I'm curious about something in my final thoughts; Remender said he wanted to do oodles (heh, fun word) of Frankencastle stories, and I'm just wondering where those would have gone. I eventually grew alright with this direction as it did provide interesting philosophical moments for Frank and such, but overall, what we did receive felt lacking in some areas. I couldn't really picture around 6 more months of this.

 

[cthulhu]

The franken castle thing was taken away from remender because sales were not great, while they were comprable to Punisher max atm it was a buck cheaper and aimed at a broader audience. The main indication that it was taken away from remender for me was that they canged the name of the book to frankencastle without remender being involved in the decision indicating a lack of faith and forcing the concept to stand on its own feet rather than further damage the Punisher brand.
So considering that sales started quite well and nosedived after #6 it was only a matter of time until marvel had to change things. Its sad as I liked remenders work on Fear Agent and Strange Girl but he was a staunch defender of matt factions debacle (probably the worst run on the punisher ever) that I really thought he was on a highway to nothing. Unfortunatly the whole frankencastle idea was only a reheated idea from previous work from remender (see 'doll and creature') and it being a pretty bad pun being a frankenstein style monster because his first name was frank was maybe not the best direction to go in.
The rematch with daken seemed early but was probably pushed forward due to the cancellation of frankencastle as there were a couple of filler issues just before that cross over and then the title very quickly ended.
Its sad as there are so many way that Punisher in the MU could be done right but remender wanted to impose his ideas on the character rather than treat the character with respect. While not quite as bad as OMD its not a lot better. What I find particularly upsetting about the whole thing is that Ennis did such fantastic work building the character up into the most dangerous man alive and fraction and remender have essentially ruined his hard work. I remember the excitement when I heard the Punisher would return to the MU after Civil War but who of note died since then when we were promised some big names? only the title character, not as sold. Hopefully fraction and remender havent done so much damage to the character that he will have the same fate as in the mid ninties.
If you want to write a good Punisher book have him kicking ass rather than being a whipping boy as he has been in the MU for the last 5 years. THe character uses strategy and tactics to beat superior foes but the way he has been writen in the MU hasnt been true to the character in years. Strangly most of the Punishers guest appearences have been much better.
I really hope that the Max book doesnt get pulled down too but I think it was a mistake to use Dillon as the artist on it as its a step backward. I am very interested in what happens to the character after remenders mini but dont think anything will ever match Ennis' Max run.

 

[TimBisley]

"Impose his ideas on the character"? If writers didn't bring their own ideas to stories, things would get boring, fast. They would just be telling the same Frank Castle stories. Frank goes after the mob. Frank goes after drug dealers. Frank goes on military mission. I'm glad Remender went crazy with this concept. Punisher: The List was just an awesome Punisher story. This whole thing was just a storyline. A storyline everyone knew was going to end, and things back to "normal", and people still complain. Get over it. Read Max.

 

[Shockdingo]

Tim, I think you missed my point. I'm all for new and different ideas, but it has to be eased into and you know, make at least a bit of sense. Punisher moving on from Aks and .45s to lasers and Pym Particles? Awesome and about freakin' time he upgraded the arsenal. Becoming an undead patchwork creature involved with monsters and magic, a weird stretch. I personally wouldnt have minded a more cybernetic option really. For me, the problem is not fixed by reading max (I do enjoy it considerably), that's because my issue is not "waaah, it's not realistic", but rather, "woah, wtf? Bizarre direction!" I like Frank's encounters with the weird. Like I said, I see him like Brock Samson; I liked when he was with Stu and he got the sword gun. He should be the normal guy in the middle of the crazy. While I had issues with the Frankencastle story, I did enjoy some of the initial weirdness, because it made Frank question things and also it did one important thing; he FINALLY died, yet, he was robbed of his peace. Not in a "Dude, you killed people for years. Off to hell mmK?" way, but a "you're almost there *poof* Aliiiiiive again...eewww....well not really...'alive' persay Franky" I wanted that aspect of him being robbed of the finality of death to be focused upon, but sadly it didn't delve deep enough into that. He's always surrounded by the bizarre, but for once, HE was the weird one, he was the entity that crossed paths with the real and unreal. But it's just such a drastic and awkward change for the character.

I want Frank in more of the MU and the weirdness it brings; a little freshness is great, but to take him so far out of his roots is akin to putting Daredevil in Asgard for several arcs. Now, he's dealt with the mystical before, but it would be such a bizarre change, that I don't know if it would really do the character good.

 

[ObakeTora]

If Punisher can survive that awful Angel storyline from the late 90's and obtain the level of status given to him by Ennis, then my man Frank can survive this crap flavored crap party. You all have very great ideals regarding Frank, as I said earlier I want Frank to go the way of the Xcutioner collect all the bad ass Marvel weapons and maybe include a mock up Punisher arsenal at the end of the book in homage to old school War Journal. Do you guys even know who the Xcutioner is? He was a major thorn in the side of the X-men, and he even teamed up with our pal Frank in one issue, maybe in some forgotten panel Xcutioner told Frank to drop the 8-bit arsenal in favor of more power.

Your absolutely right that Frank hasnt killed anyone major since Stiltman, I was hoping he would kill the Red Hood, but instead Rick Remendnothing followed his partner in grime Fractionofaninch and wrote Frank to do something absolutely horrible; "threaten to give that jerk's daughter to the Kingpin."

Fractionofaninch had Frank almost murder Stu's girlfriend, and now Remendnothing proving the hypocrite that he is writes Frank to burn his family in a blaze citing the fact that "Maria would not want him to make deals with monsters!" BUT HE THREATENS TO GIVE UP THE HOOD'S DAUGHTER TO THE KINGPIN FOR CRYING OUTLOUD!!!!!!

I hope a writer gets a brainfart and writes this Frank as a Skrull.


If I saw Remendnothing at a comic panel I would ruthlessly grill him for this. And I know I am not the only Punisher fan around here so how come I am the only one upset by this? Anyone?

I am perfectly at ease with Frank being unable to murder anyone of any significance, heck Ennis showed us the joy of watching Frank test the limits of super heroes; over the course of time super heroes and villains would be wary of Frank because as Daredevil pointed out when he assembled Spidey and Wolvie to capture Frank in "Confederacy of Dunces"; "Things have a way of happening."

I hope now that Dare Devil has joined the Hand and is acting crazy Marvel elects Frank to take him down. I'm still not over the fact Daredevil shot Frank to let a drug dealer who sells drugs to children go.

"Frank like Brock?

More like Brock is like Frank only nicer."

 

[cthulhu]

Yeah - the last 5 years of the MU Punisher has been pretty terrible as a fan. I kinda had started to forget some of the details from fractions run but yeah the whole thing was pretty terrible 'hate rays' I really hope this whole thing is retconned in some way but the way I look at it is this is an alternate Punisher that isnt canon. Admittidly remenders Punisher has been more 'fun' than factions it isnt the punisher There are a myriad of way to have the punisher in the MU but to just decide to chop him up is difficult to read. However not much left of remenders mess to go, DnA's heros for hire should be interesting, they wrote a good Punisher...

 

[fat freddys cat]

For me as a Punisher fan, and a long term one at that, have too say that the whole of the last five years, of MU 616 Punisher , has been just grim, OK two arcs I maybe enjoyed in the whole 5 years , but really Frankencastle, way to far out of Frank Castles usual turf , that it ceases to be the Punisher, from the crap name to the pointless return match with Daken, it's does not work....

Pity cause yes Remender is a good writer his Fear Agent is great, but he missed the point with The Punisher, is that Frank Castle defeats his foes by being A stratagist, Remender threw this away and replaced it with Frankencastle,

Although his first arc with the Punisher I enjoyed, and I do have high hopes for the 'In The Blood' limited series coming out, cause it's got Frank back in his usual setting , and him being his normal self, Plus it has a great artist on it too, and Remender , for all his faults, can Do an entertaining story, something that Fraction , never done with the Punisher....

You see the thing that gets me is that you could have the Punisher kill one decent super villian , every other arc, because this is the MU 616 world, Characters don't stay dead, and at least with a villian , they will stay dead for longer than a hero, like Hammerhead, Silvermaine, The Slug , who is going to miss them for a couple of years?

Let's have Frank finally kill the Jackel for tricking him all those years ago for going after Spidey, thus building a bit of much needed back round to the Punisher back story.....

 

[PaleRider]

I am a very big fan of the punisher and I have enjoyed Frankencastle, I'll admit I'm a little bummed it's ending. But anyway I think the problem I have with 616 Punisher is this, marvel won't let him kill any major baddies in the universe. I put it together after the Daken rematch. They bring villains back from the dead so Frank can kill them, why not have him kill The Hood or Daken? I'm sorry but the longer that goes on the bigger the risk of making Frank a joke in 616 universe.

EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is that I think Frank needs 1 really big story where he goes after and kills at least a B level villain to make super villains actually fear him

 

[runawayboulder]

F-that. B level villains already fear him. He needs to off an A level villain. But who would Marvel be willing to sacrifice......? It's tough because all of the top tier super-villains have some tie to mythology or magic so a bullet aint gonna cut it.

 

[PaleRider]

F-that. B level villains already fear him. He needs to off an A level villain. But who would Marvel be willing to sacrifice......? It's tough because all of the top tier super-villains have some tie to mythology or magic so a bullet aint gonna cut it.

yes but thats why we love him is because he would find a way. I would love to see him kill Osbourne.

 

[cthulhu]

Thats what does my head in about the whole MU thing. If you can resurrect the Punisher after he has died why not let him kill a whole bunch of folks you can just resurrect them using other means. The whole things made up. The fact that the only character of note that has died in the 5 years of MU Punisher being only the title character is contemptuous of the fans.

 

[PaleRider]

Thats what does my head in about the whole MU thing. If you can resurrect the Punisher after he has died why not let him kill a whole bunch of folks you can just resurrect them using other means. The whole things made up. The fact that the only character of note that has died in the 5 years of MU Punisher being only the title character is contemptuous of the fans.

exactly

 

[fat freddys cat]

Thats what does my head in about the whole MU thing. If you can resurrect the Punisher after he has died why not let him kill a whole bunch of folks you can just resurrect them using other means. The whole things made up. The fact that the only character of note that has died in the 5 years of MU Punisher being only the title character is contemptuous of the fans.

yea that about sums it up for me too, fair point , in fact very good point

 

[Shockdingo]

Hey guys,
How's it going? I'm in a Punisher mood as of late and I got to thinking. Where would you take MU-616 Punisher next?

For me I had a couple ideas (I might turn this into a blog or essay of sorts later, but I'm wondering where to put it):

-Keep Henry, I like Frank with a supporting cast, even if it's a cast of one. I also like how they play off of each other in the main Punisher books as well as the Suicide Kings Deadpool mini

-If the "no more mutants" hadn't happened I would have explored the world of MGH; Mutant Growth Hormone. You could mix together a traditional Punisher story arc with some MU craziness. Have Punisher investigate a rise in kidnappings from a mutant community, have him find they are trying to synthesize more potent MGH from the live subjects. Chaos and Awesomeness entail.

-Build up his enemies, let Frank have his own baddies, not hand me downs. I.E. Finally have the Maggia, like Frank, catch up to the 21st century. Sure there's still the traditional dudes, and even the dudes who operate in modern capacity but with classic iconography, but also let there be those who embrace the new worlds; arenas of gene therapy, human/mutant/Atlantean/Skrull trafficking and prostitution, new synthesized drugs and weapons. It's the MU, the capacity for bizarre and manic vices introduced could be infinite. I remember in Spider-man: Marvel Knights, there were super powered prostitutes etc. Electro was with a shapeshifter.

-Going with the above, you could even give Frank some new connections, maybe a Cop who is part of a newly formed task force to investigate some of the weirder goings on in the MU is a sympathetic ally to Frank and at times could offer him intel etc.

I do seriously believe Punisher can work fantastically in the craziness of the MU without losing his touch. Apply some realism to fantastical worlds and you've got gold. In a place like the MU you definitely would see mixing of realms. You can have Frank in his element but in new and refreshing ways. You can still have a pretty realistic story, but also have some that are crazy. With a new FACE of crime you can still have Frank rack up the body count of his new rogues without fear of people complaining about another series' baddie being killed.

Thanks for reading guys.

 

[BugOut]

What's up with Punisher Max #10? #9 came out months ago...any date on #10's release? I can't even find it on marvel.com..

 

[runawayboulder]

There's been no official announcement as to the delay. PunisherMAX has been absent from the last 2 months of solits.

 

[Watchman]

Steve Dillion has been working on Ultimate Avengers so I'm guessing they're waiting for him to finish up there.

 

[NDX]

Well, trade is due out in December, so I expect (hope?) the issue will come out before then.

 

[Watchman]

Hopefully. Bullseye's been fun but I really want to read the next story "Frank" to see Aaron get inside Frank's head and the wait has been a killer.

 

[cthulhu]

Yeah the Lack of Punisher Max recently has been a bit concerning - but what did the folks here think of MU vs the Punisher? I really enjoyed it! I liked Mayberrys Max one-shot but this 4 issue series really knocked it out of the park. The only downside is that it was only 4 isues but more like this Marvel please as Frank kicked ass in this. Hopefully there will be a followup t: