The Dark Knight The Rachel Dawes thread

[ArmsHeldOut]

In regards to the funeral, this is what I've put together via various spy pics/info...

I think Bruce may be reacting to those events. Even though Rachel dying would probably help the storyline (or at least the emotional parts), I think they should keep her on, simply because Maggie is so talented and could add a lot of depth to the film.

That's how I feel in a nutshell.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

Definitely the Commish's funeral, thats how Gordon moves up.

When Gordon moves up, he blames Batman and his effectiveness, thus shattering the sign he created for him. Ashamed that Batman could not do more and realizing they need to stop all of this.

Therefore, everyone turns on Batman and he has to save his own ass as well as everyone else's.

Oh, and...



Spot on!

Yep and Alfred pretty much says, Suck it up man! You're BATMAN! "YOU can be the outcast!"

 

[Ecstasy]

I think we can expect the Joker doing things that triggers the public's turning away and rejection of Batman.

I think slgass03 sums it up nicely, especially tying in the hospital explosion to the Mayor's death. But why then would we have scenes of the Joker in a female nurse's outfit? Maybe we see him setting up bombs while dressed as a nurse?

 

[sglass03]

I think we can expect the Joker doing things that triggers the public's turning away and rejection of Batman.

I think slgass03 sums it up nicely, especially tying in the hospital explosion to the Mayor's death. But why then would we have scenes of the Joker in a female nurse's outfit? Maybe we see him setting up bombs while dressed as a nurse?

Yeah, I think he disguises himself, gets into the hospital, and rigs it up. It's quite Joker-ish when you think about it - instead of trying to just finish off the Mayor in a subtle, shadowy way, he takes out the whole place.

 

[Ecstasy]

Yeah, I think he disguises himself, gets into the hospital, and rigs it up. It's quite Joker-ish when you think about it - instead of trying to just finish off the Mayor in a subtle, shadowy way, he takes out the whole place.

I agree with you on all points. It would be funny seeing him in the nurse's outfit (pink supposedly, I hear) and though it may alleviate some of the Joker's psychotic persona for a moment, he switches back and we see the hospital getting blown to pieces.

That really does show him having no remorse. Why finish small when you can go out in a big bang, right?

 

[bkey]

Spoiler

The Joker kills Loeb at some point, and it's clearer now due to the trailer. I believe he gets Loeb in his office, because one line states "Good evening, commissioner" (Gordon isn't the commish yet), and then in the next scene, we see Joker grabbing Loeb's face and whispering "Why so serious?"

I think that Joker is holding Gambol's face, not Loeb's. But yeah, other then that I think you're spot on.

 

[Obsidian]

In regards to the funeral, this is what I've put together via various spy pics/info...

Spoiler

The Joker kills Loeb at some point, and it's clearer now due to the trailer. I believe he gets Loeb in his office, because one line states "Good evening, commissioner" (Gordon isn't the commish yet), and then in the next scene, we see Joker grabbing Loeb's face and whispering "Why so serious?"

So then we have Loeb's funeral. According to spy reports, there is a 21-gun salute at the ceremony, and Joker is dressed like one of the cops. He turns one of the guns on the Mayor and nearly kills him. He then runs. We can see scenes of this in the new trailer, as well.

Here's my own deduction, albeit speculation: I think the Mayor ends up in the hospital, badly wounded. In order to finish the job, I think the Joker, rather than just going to assassinate him, actually blows up the entire hospital (we've seen this, as well.) Hence he takes out both Loeb and the Mayor in succession.

I think Bruce may be reacting to those events. Even though Rachel dying would probably help the storyline (or at least the emotional parts), I think they should keep her on, simply because Maggie is so talented and could add a lot of depth to the film.

Spoiler

You can't kill Bat-Manuel! It just ain't right!

 

[Indrid Cold]

I read the funeral spoiler...wish I didn't, makes a bunch of sense.

 

[Indrid Cold]

By the way...couldn't it be D.A. Garcetti's Funeral, and that's how Dent moves up?

 

[bkey]

By the way...couldn't it be D.A. Garcetti's Funeral, and that's how Dent moves up?

No it's definitely Loeb's funeral.

I think Garcetti is a character created just for The Gotham Times and the viral stuff. He won't be in the movie at all..

 

[Downhere]

Even though Rachel dying would probably help the storyline (or at least the emotional parts), I think they should keep her on, simply because Maggie is so talented and could add a lot of depth to the film.

Yeah, I wouldn't want Rachel dying now that they have a capable actress for the part. It would really suck if they did that.

 

[bkey]

This was mentioned about a month ago now, but someone supposedly knew someone on the crew who said that:

Spoiler

The Joker unintentionally kills Rachel, or somehow has a role in her death.

 

[TheScarecrow]

I don't think Rachel will die.

I think she'll serve the same purpose as Janis Porter, as in her relationship will be ongoing with Harvey once he becomes Two-Face and she'll be assisting him as acting D.A. in acheiving what he wants. Obviously, she'll be more conflicted about it than Janis but I'm guessing she'll eventually die at the hands of Two-Face as well.

It's much more dramatic than the Joker just offing her for the sake of it, especially when he's already killing so many people.

 

[The Riddler]

the only thing katie has on maggie is that she is more attractive. now, this is subjective, but i'm confident the vast majority would agree.

also, holmes didn't do that bad in begins; i think people are being overly critical.

anyway, i hope rachel dies. she's unnecessary especially when someone like catwoman or another love interest from the comics should be introduced. also, it would make for better drama.

 

[Batmans Spirit]

the only thing katie has on maggie is that she is more attractive. now, this is subjective, but i'm confident the vast majority would agree.

also, holmes didn't do that bad in begins; i think people are being overly critical.

anyway, i hope rachel dies. she's unnecessary especially when someone like catwoman or another love interest from the comics should be introduced. also, it would make for better drama.

I love how you are kind of sticking up for Rachel and who should play her and Katie didn't do that bad then suddenly out comes:

anyway, i hope rachel dies.

 

[yankee]

When I saw the trailer I wanted Katie back even more. I never had any problems with Katie the actress and yes truly beautiful to watch than Rachel no.2.

 

[Echo7Solo]

When I saw the trailer I wanted Katie back even more. I never had any problems with Katie the actress and yes truly beautiful to watch than Rachel no.2.

Funny you say that. When I saw the trailer I wished that they had Maggie in the role in the first place. Wouldn't you love to see her take on the subway scene from "Begins?"

 

[Ryudoz]

Funny you say that. When I saw the trailer I wished that they had Maggie in the role in the first place. Wouldn't you love to see her take on the subway scene from "Begins?"

I disagree. I wished that Rachel wasn't there in the first place only to be a speculated plot device in the second film. I prefer characters with more substance, and I thought Rachel had very little that couldn't be accomplished by someone else.

As for the subway scene, I think it was a contrived scene to show Rachel's strong determined fearless side and set her up for Batman to give her the evidence necessary to take down Falcone. We already knew she was a dominant female type from how she handled Bruce at Chill's trial and how she confronted Crane after the trial he was testifying at. I personally would have liked to see Batman show up in her Apartment or something, and really scare the bejebus out of her as I think it would have been more in character. Just my thoughts though.

 

[Star]

I disagree. I wished that Rachel wasn't there in the first place only to be a speculated plot device in the second film. I prefer characters with more substance, and I thought Rachel had very little that couldn't be accomplished by someone else.

As for the subway scene, I think it was a contrived scene to show Rachel's strong determined fearless side and set her up for Batman to give her the evidence necessary to take down Falcone. We already knew she was a dominant female type from how she handled Bruce at Chill's trial and how she confronted Crane after the trial he was testifying at. I personally would have liked to see Batman show up in her Apartment or something, and really scare the bejebus out of her as I think it would have been more in character. Just my thoughts though.

It seems like you're just generally against the character of Rachel. But regardless of her role in BB (which i also agree, was kind of a lame role in general), Maggie could have clearly done a better job. I just think she's a better actress in general

 

[Echo7Solo]

I disagree. I wished that Rachel wasn't there in the first place only to be a speculated plot device in the second film. I prefer characters with more substance, and I thought Rachel had very little that couldn't be accomplished by someone else.

As for the subway scene, I think it was a contrived scene to show Rachel's strong determined fearless side and set her up for Batman to give her the evidence necessary to take down Falcone. We already knew she was a dominant female type from how she handled Bruce at Chill's trial and how she confronted Crane after the trial he was testifying at. I personally would have liked to see Batman show up in her Apartment or something, and really scare the bejebus out of her as I think it would have been more in character. Just my thoughts though.

my point with the subway scene is I think Maggie's acting would have been a lot better. As for Rachel not having any substance she was a childhood crush, best friend and more. She represents part of the life that could have been. She also represents a sacrifice of Bruce's personal life and sets up for more pain to strengthen his drive. She also doesn't have 50 years of comic book lore to fall back on. For a new character she is pretty darn good. If Katie's acting had only been better it would have been more clear.

 

[Ryudoz]

It seems like you're just generally against the character of Rachel. But regardless of her role in BB (which i also agree, was kind of a lame role in general), Maggie could have clearly done a better job. I just think she's a better actress in general

True, I didn't like Rachel at all and I am against her character. I admit it and yes Katie's performance along with how her character was written were the causes. As for Maggie, we'll only be able to see her take in TDK, but I'm not so sure she would have done a better job in the first movie to change my opinion. I will concede she is the better actress of the two.

I really really wish that they would have pulled another character from the comics to fill Rachel's role, and I think if she does bite it in TDK then there is that possibility for a 3rd movie could we get one.

 

[Star]

I agree. It seems weird to re-cast her when replacing her would have been easier and better for continuity. It wouldn't be that hard to reference her death or leaving gotham off screen.

I think Holmes kinda tainted the character for me though

 

[CaptainClown]

i really dont like those referencing a death or someone leaving on a film but I equally hate it when they recast someone.. so it kind of is a double edge sword for me

 

[Echo7Solo]

True, I didn't like Rachel at all and I am against her character. I admit it and yes Katie's performance along with how her character was written were the causes. As for Maggie, we'll only be able to see her take in TDK, but I'm not so sure she would have done a better job in the first movie to change my opinion. I will concede she is the better actress of the two.

I really really wish that they would have pulled another character from the comics to fill Rachel's role, and I think if she does bite it in TDK then there is that possibility for a 3rd movie could we get one.

I agree that she does have to die at some point but the more they develop her the harder her death will be to take.

 

[Echo7Solo]

I agree. It seems weird to re-cast her when replacing her would have been easier and better for continuity. It wouldn't be that hard to reference her death or leaving gotham off screen.

I think Holmes kinda tainted the character for me though

if they referenced her leaving town then it would have taken a huge dump on all the development they put into her character. Recasting is not a good thing, we can thank Tom Cruse for this one, but it is better than having her leave town off screen or just up and be killed for no reason or plot movement. Also who would you have her character replaced with from the comics?